Lumber can be stored either horizontally or vertically. It seems to me that storing wood horizontally with stickers would be the best way to keep wood flat. In fact, I always sticker my wood – when it’s rough, between milling stages, and awaiting assembly. But other woodworkers store their lumber (presumably dried) stacked horizontally with no stickers or vertically (most notably, George Nakashima, as well as many hardwood suppliers. How do you store your lumber, and why?
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)
– Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. – Albert Schweitzer
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Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 2/8/2009 9:21 pm by flairwoodworks
I have a VHS tape that is part of a set called Traditional Crafts of Japan. My tape is #5 called Woodworking : Kyoto Joinery.
It is one of my treasures.
In this tape they go to a " lumber yard " where some of the planks are two hundred years old. That is they have been stored with the intention they will not be used for a century or more. Kind of a different take on wood working not to mention stable material. ( I think I learned European instrument makers store their wood for a long time but I don't know much about that )
In the Japanese lumber yard they store the wood on edge in racks like toast.
So there you go.
roc
I store mine horizontal without stickers, overhead on the rafter ties in my shop. Never had a problem with my lumber warping.
Chris,
like most things, it depends...
On the huge assumption that space is no consideration (neither floor space nor height limitations) then both systems still make sense. A pallet of lumber laying down is the easiest and most efficient way of storing in a production environment - easiest to move around with a pallet truck, easiest to bring to the machine, etc. But if you want to look through a pile of boards for "the one" you need, then vertical standing is much more suitable. So I'd say that if you're a one-board-at-a-time shop, then standing on end is good. If you're running quantities of wood then you need flat storage. The wood itself is fine either way.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David,So you don't feel that dry lumber will stay any straighter laying down than on end?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,I agree with Ring but I have recently tried what Roc said the Japanese did.
" they store the wood on edge in racks like toast".
I didn't get that from the Japanese but from a mill yard jockey at a local lumber yard. I needed some stuff for some rough "honey dos". Pond Cedar, 18% PT, 18-20% Doug fir etc. He suggested the toast idea.I usually figure about a 1000% loss rate do to warping, twisting et al after they come off the bunk when I flat sticker the stuff.
So I tried the toast. Keeper rate of mill-able flat wood soared. Even dry down, flat(er), straight(er) and faster.
1X and 2x stuff - MC down to 8-10% in under 8 days (through and through) inside shop. 6-8% in a 2-3 weeks. Electric heat.Most of my good wood is stacked vertically but I am now "toasting" the furniture wood after it's initial layout cuts and also in final prior to assembly. It seems to yield a more stable product.
Subjective of course.
I don't know what kind of racks or space a general set up for fine woods would take but thats' something to consider. Especially for those rare and valuable pieces that you haven't figured what your going to be making with them.Maybe some of our Sketchers could generate some designs - suitable for intermediate size shops. Boiler
It makes sense that boards stacked horizontally without stickers are more likely to exchange moisture unevenly. The "toast" method makes a lot of sense assuming some air space around each board.
A lot depends on the moisture content when the boards come into the shop as well as moisture fluctuations in the shop.
Richardsco
Edited 2/11/2009 12:27 am ET by richardsco
No, I don't see any evidence that boards standing on end get bowed by it. Of course I don't keep 'em around for 100 years, but even after 3-4 years of standing I don't think they're affected by it.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
My original lumber rack was (is) horizontal, non-stickered. It works just fine, no indication of deformation of the stock. But it's a hassle getting stuff out, and it takes up more space than necessary. After visiting Peter Loh's shop east of Seattle, and seeing the lumber he's had stored horizontally, some pieces for several years, I decided horizontal was not necessary. I will, someday, switch almost all mine to vertical. The big walnut slabs will stay laying down, as will some teak that I have, on the two upper portions of the rack. Up over my head, I don't mind using space.
On edge. Every peice is easy to access and good airflow around everything. Only drawback is it takes up more space.
View Image
Rich
The Professional Termite
Trialnut,Your rack intrigues me. Any chance of some close ups and details of installation. Looks welded?ThanksBoiler
Boiler
I can't claim the patent on it. It's the rack in the last pattern shop I worked at but can tell you it works very well. You can get to any board without digging through a stack so it is worth the extra space it consumes just in time savings. Other benefit is that air can circulate around every piece.
It is welded construction. There are three frames like the one you can see in the picture. The bottom, middle and top horizontal pipes have a flange on the right end that screws to the wall. The very top pipes also go all the way to the wall on the left and attach there. Bottom pipe is about 4" from floor to provide circulation.
The three frames are about 7' apart and have no connection between them so can be moved or adjusted if need be. There is about 8' of space behind the third frame so rack can hold 24' long lumber. The verticle rods are 3/8" solid round stock just passed through drilled holes but not welded. They stick up through the top pipe by about 6". They keep boards from falling over sideways although that seldom happens even with 4/4 stock.
The entire rack is 10' tall to the top pipe and about 8' wide. The bottom "cubicles" are about 24" high, the top ones about 14" high. The rest vary getting smaller as you near the top. All are about 15" wide. That is so 6 peices of 2x rough cut will slide in with air space but not seven which would pack them to tightly.
As you can see the original rack was added to. The addition has shelves in the first three cubes. The bottom 2 hold cutoffs from about 2' to 7' and the third one up holds short stuff less than 2', accessed from the side. The space behind the shelves hidden from view is verticle storage for offcuts from sheetgoods. The top two cubes on the addition are supposed to be 5/4 poplar. The ones below them for construction lumber.
The two columns on the right side are for mahogany starting with 8/4 at the bottom working up to 4/4 at the top. Middle two columns are sugar pine the same way. Misc stuff on top mostly belongs to various employees and friends.
That is the way the rack was set up but when I took the photo it was quite empty as messed up. The owner dosen't spend much time cleaning or sorting. He left that to the grunts and now that we are gone the whole shop is a mess. This rack easily holds 6000+ board feet. A smaller version could easily be made.
If I get a chance to sneak over there in the next couple of weeks I will try to remember my camera and get some detail shots. The last time I was there the place was such a mess I couldn't even get to my toolboxes, much less find a bench to work on. In spite of his messy habits he was still the best person I ever worked for.
Rich
The Professional Termite
Edited 2/13/2009 10:30 am ET by trialnut
Rich,Thanks for the great detail. I was thinking of downsizing. I'm thinking something in the 1000 bd foot range would be great for the really good wood that still has a ways to go on MC or waiting on inspiration.
Thanks again.Boiler
Just another thought. I have often wondered but never checked to see if there is a difference in moisture content from top to bottom in wood stored vertically. If there is is it enough to make a difference and be a problem.
RichThe Professional Termite
Chris,
Here's a photo of the storage side of my shop. Slings of poplar, walnut, and French oak. Odds and ends standing on the wall. It's not beautiful but it works.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Ring,A question as to your French Oak. Not the storage but the wood itself.The majority of white oak available here (US) is Eastern White (Quercus alba) is more open course grain (though for oaks in most woodworkers experience, considered a very tight grain) and low in tannin with light brown heartwood. There is a Oregon white oak also known as Garry Oak (Quercus garryana) that I have used here and it supposedly has a similar tight grain to French Oak, with a higher tannin level but not as high as French Oak (Quercus petraea). It doesn't make me feel the same as the wood I've seen but that may be memory.
I remember being very impressed by it's subtle beauty and soft feel when I was in Europe but I was young and thought Oak was Oak. The natural brown of a Latte.
Most dealers here think it's English oak (Quercus robur ) or a variation of it and try to sell it as such - interchangeable. (Cactus flower to a rose) There is a hybrid with the worst of both, but very coarse (They list French Oak but they really don't have it.)
I have no samples to compare directly I was wondering if you have any first hand "cross-oak" experience between Quercus petraea (French Oak) and Garry Oak.
I'm looking for something in this country that would come closer than what most dealers carry.
I know there are 50 plus varieties but since you are the only one I know that uses true French Oak on a consistent basis,............
I'm asking if you know of a close substitute. Or perhaps what would be the closest substitute you would use for your projects if the forests in central France were gone?
Ordering French Oak from Europe wood be cost prohibitive in the smaller quantities I would want.ThanksBoiler
Boiler,It looks like you've studied the question a lot more deeply than I have. We're very fortunate to have an importer who regularly stocks the true French oak. It's always flatsawn, with the live edges. We buy full slings in both 1" and 2" thicknesses, and can cull out of that everything we need. Right now we're paying $1000 per cubic meter for the 1" and $1600 for the 2". The 2" that's actually in the photo is graded as "rustique", which means it's full of checks and knots. Costs only $600 a cubic meter and for some jobs it's just what we need. I've used English oak, which in my opinion comes a close second. I'm also familiar with the Eastern White you have in the US, but I don't like it very much in comparison to either of the Europeans. I find that the true French has a tight, lovely grain, and a very high tannin content. We use several different finishes on oak, sometimes fuming and occasionally bleaching. The French oak reacts wonderfully well to both. And of course it takes a lovely clear finish as well.I've tried white oak from eastern Europe, Romania I think. Maybe it isn't fair to judge from one purchase but it was far inferior in every way except price. So after all, I don't know what to recommend. If the French disappeared I'd probably switch to English, but think wistfully about "le chene francais" everafter.regards, David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Ring,Thanks much for your thoughtful response. Your prices aren't really that terrible considering the distance. Perhaps it would be affordable if I could find a importer here. May share a few bunks with the Oregon, Seattle and Vancouver knoters.
Thanks againBoiler
I started out having everything stored and stickered horizontally. Then, as my lumber quantity increased exponentially when I came into a large quantity of great logs, I started stacking 8/4 and thicker vertically along the walls of the shop, and still having about 300 bf stacked horizontally in a rack I built for this purpose.
I have to tell you that I hate trying to find something in the horizontal stack. It's so much easier to get at the boards when they are vertically stored. I have not noticed any difference in quality between the two stored types of lumber.
I also have a 25' X 19' storage shed that I store my 'green' lumber after I mill it. That is all stacked horizontally with stickers, and I keep the flitch piles in order as they come off the log. That makes bookmatching a helluva lot easier, when a project requires it.
Here's some pics of my mess.
Jeff
Jeff,Just how much covered wood storage do you have? (Lucky you!) Am I safe to assume that all the vertically stored wood is already dry?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
About the lumber yards in Japan:
Yeah, they store everything here standing up, like "toast". I think space is a big reason, plus tested drying methods over the years. Its almost impossible to find dimensioned lumber here, in hardwood. All of their local hardwoods are sliced 2-4 inches thick, and are usually used for natural-style tables, furniture, etc. The other wood (expensive pieces) they have are the decorative posts for "Japanese tatami" rooms in houses. I installed a cherry post once in a US-style house, which had one Japanese room in it, the post was 2metres tall, about 6 inches around, $15,000 for the post.
I visited a lumber place in Kyoto, in the mountains, they had a warehouse full of those decorative posts. There were a bunch old ladies there (in their 70's) who hand-polished the posts. All of the posts were stored vertically.
In my shop/warehouse, I store all my hardwood in racks, horizontally, for ease of selection. All of my long stuff, like clear Hemlock and Walnut, etc. I store vertically for better air drying. If I had my choice I'd store everything horizontally and keep everything in labeled racks, so that I knew how much I had and of what species, at any given time....
ss
Jeez, what kind of wood was this post made of? African ebony?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Real old growth cherry....! But, of course, still not worth $15,000 ....!
SS
Hello Tatekata, It is amazing to hear from a woodworker in Japan. I saw you work in construction. Do you also build cabinets? I could not tell from the picture you posted what you were doing but I wonder if you prefer to work more with hand tools or are you a power tool nut like I am? I know there are woodworkers all over the world but it is very interesting to hear from them. Dave
I'm a carpenter by trade, but also build lots of cabinets, furniture, etc.
I came to Japan from Canada 16 years ago. For 10 years I've been a carpenter, learned it over here. I was lucky to have a good teacher (Japanese) who didn't mind passing on his secrets to non-Japanese. For the last 5 years, I've been subcontracting for a large home builder in the city I live in. The houses used to be all-American style, but then they couldn't get a lot of the products from the US/Canada because of price issues, etc. So, I started making what they couldn't import....which meant cabinets, stair parts, etc.
Its actually really difficult to do it my own way... I read Fine Woodworking, etc., and get lots of books on woodworking.... then I can't find 3/4" plywood, or any dimensioned hardwood lumber...or tung oil to finish stuff with...so I can't make things the way I want to. Tools too.....woodworking machines are available, but are really, really expensive, and for the most part the only manufacturers are Hitachi, Makita and Ryobi. That being said, used machines are available and there are some real deals to be had. I bought an old Makita panel saw in December, $500USD. Its worth over $15,000 new. Its a cast iron set-up that's all automatic, hooks up to a compressor....a real nice saw!
SS
interesting. That is a big leap from Canada. It must be very satisfying to learn from a master woodworker over there. I imagine they are very precise. I take it that is your permanent home, was it a culture shock to you over there? I love learning about other cultures and the Japanese have a rich history. Anyway enjoy, we love to hear from you and seeing pictures of your work.
All the wood in my shop has already been dried a couple of years, at least. I air dry all my lumber for a couple years, and then move several hundred board feet of each species at all times into the woodshop. I have dehumidifiers running round the clock during the humid months, so the shop acts like a kiln, finishing the wood off. There's probably around 1500 bf of lumber in my shop right now. It's dry, aclimated, and ready to work.
In the wood shed, I 've had as much as 10,000 to 12,000 bf (I'm guessing, as I didn't measure it) in there at a time, and when I was sawing logs, I always had several large stacks of freshly milled lumber outside stacked level and stickered, and covered from the elements. After 6 or 8 months, it gets moved into the shed.
I have sold or used most of the stock I milled several years back, about 8 years ago. A neighbor of mine is a home builder, and he had a huge supply of excellent logs in maple, white oak, red oak, poplar, and tons of cherry that had been cleared for a large home he was building. He contacted me, and I took a bunch of the logs and milled them. If you can believe it, they were just cutting the stuff into firewood. That stock pile has dwindled, and I'm ready to find my next score!
Jeff
Jeff,I am jealous of you. I handle my wood in a similar manner - have it milled by a friend with an Alaskan mill and delivered on my driveway. Then I sticker it on skids in my side yard and let it mellow. I don't have a pallet jack or forklift, but 7' long skids make nice platforms for drying wood - they are big enough, flat, and keep the wood off the ground.When the time is right (est. 1 year/inch of thickness), I bring the lumber into my shop and let it continue to dry, stickered on my lumber rack. Then I use it. I like your dehumidifier idea.Unfortunately, I do believe you when you say that the hardwoods were destined for firewood. I have plans to go save some butternut from a like demise.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
In 3 or 4 weeks, I've got another score of logs from an excavator friend of mine. He's clearing a lot for a custom home, and there are 20 or so trees inside the foundation perimeter that need to be removed. I've labeled 12 of them for the sawmill, and 2 are gorgeous cherry trees, and 2 are walnuts. The smallest is about 20" diameter. The walnut trees are 15 feet to the first crotch, so I should get some great wood out of them, as long as there is no disease or shake. I'll post some pics when I get them.
I'm paying $500 for all of them, and I have to buck them and get them with my dump truck. I'm hoping for about 5000-6000 bf from all of them. We'll see.
Adios!
Jeff
Jeff,"The walnut trees are 15 feet to the first crotch, so I should get some great wood out of them"It sounds like you are after straight lumber. What do you do with the crotches? Are you responsible for the takedowns and milling, or just the removal of the wood?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
He's got a guy who is doing the lot clearing who is a tree feller. I just need to tell him what I want, and he cuts away all the limbs, etc...... The big waste limbs go to a local firewood company, and I get the good stuff.
He's a hobbyist woodworker who likes to tinker from time to time, so when he needs a board or two, he calls me and I give it to him. It's a good deal for both of us.
I have a Bobcat 863, a dump truck, and a large 14000 lb gvwr tandem trailer, so moving the logs is not a problem. The Bobcat with forks is a great way to move a stack of lumber fast.
Jeff
Jeff,You are fortunate to have heavy machinery at your disposal. It's a trick moving large slabs (and trunks) otherwise.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
My attitude has always been that investing in the proper equipment is essential if I'm going to operate my business correctly. Time is money, and moving a 1500 bf stack of lumber by hand takes hours. With a loader, it takes minutes.
My construction business requires that I have heavy duty equipment and trucks. It's a benefit that I can use them to move logs and lumber around. They have paid for themselves many thousands of times over.
Jeff
I got 19 logs down, with ends painted & sealed, and ready to be moved out this week. Cost? 1 septic design and falling and helping clear the lot. Zero out of pocket. Some oaks clear for 24 feet.
I like to score too!
Networking in your area is the way to finding these scores (as we call them). As the economy has worsened, I have noticed that tree service companies and excavators aren't able to sell these logs as they once were. Many professional sawmills are only taking the best quality logs, and prices are way, way down for what they are willing to pay.
When I was younger, I was always willing to trade my back and my strong body for getting deals on logs, and other great finds, like disassembling a barn for its beams, etc......Now that I'm 45, I no longer have the desire for a day in a field with a chain saw. At 10 cents a board foot, I leave the heavy work to the young guys, and I will just show up to pick em' up, if you know what I mean.
I'm glad to hear of your find. I always love hearing of logs fine timber being rescued from the firepits. There's plenty of wood to burn from the limbs and tops.
Jeff
I store my lumber (and plywood, and anything else, for that matter) horizontally without stickers. No problems in 12 1/2 years. I found a great buy on some used 12' long pallet racking. Rack is 12' wide x 4' deep x 8' high, with four levels. If I ever move, it stays with the building.
kreuzie
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