Hello all, I recently started wood working. I purchased a 4 1/2 smoothing plane from Lee Valley. I have 1000, 4000 and 8000 Japanese water stones. I ‘am looking for a stone pond for them. I know that Lee Valley sells them. Is there any other company out there for this product?
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Replies
Rubbermaid and Tupperware.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
~ Denis Diderot
When my original sprung a leak, I stold one my wifes' pieces of tupperware. 10 years, and she's still looking for it.
Jeff
mmur,
Mr. Green's suggestions may be from something you already have on hand (or in the kitchen).
Another is to see if you can find Frank Klausz's scrap wood made pond on a video somewhere. I know in the past I have seen how it is made. A unique device that works.
Alan - planesaw
Frequently mistaken ~ But never in doubt.
Here's a few still pictures, I could'nt find the video.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Well, that looks similiar, but it is much fancier than what I saw him make in the video. Long as it holds water it will work.
In the video I remember, he shows how they made the joints so they would swell and become water tight. Particularly when he attached the bottom. As I recall he would turn the bottom of the four sides up (after they were joined), take a piece of heavy guage wire and run it along the bottom of each side. He would hammer it down flush, meaning he mashed the wire into the wood.
Then, he planed down the bottom edges of the four sides until they met the crushed wood that was a result of hammering the wire into the wood.
Then, he nailed the bottom board on. When the water seeped in the joint between the bottom board and the side, the crushed fibers on the bottom edge of the four sides would swell and form a water-tight seal.
Alan - planesaw
It was in his video on hand tools (chisels, planes & saws). It's on my project list to make a box like that. Anyway, he makes his box to hold the waterstones using the technique you describe. I gather he has moved to fancier stones that don't need to be soaked, but has kept and modified the box. It doesn't have a lid, so if one wants to keep the stones soaking one still need to put them back in the tupperware.
Simon
Thanks for the pictures and the ideas.
The round plastic dealy-bob that German chocolate (and other) cakes come in at the grocery store. The bottom of it becomes the lid.
How's that for cheap?
Disappointingly, the Lee Valley "pond" is made of plastic. To achieve a true understanding of the Zen of water-stone sharpening, the pond should also be made of stone. A candle-powered interrupted water-trickle pump (used as a metronome to time sharpening motions) is optional, of course. ;-)
I think the R. Goldberg Company is offering plans for one of those.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Don,
I have bought a number of sets of plans from Mr. Goldberg. It certainly appears he is the largest supplier of such in the world.
Alan - planesaw
Ralph,
Looks like you have been studying at the feet of Mel.
Alan - planesaw
Frequently mistaken ~ But never in doubt.
>Rubbermaid and Tupperware.<
I agree !
Works very well indeed for storing the stones. Once I went from an open tub to the above with a lid I can go weeks or a month or more and not get any slime at all. I use city water with nothing added .( chlorine etc. )
An open tub would slime up in a week easy.
For holding stone while sharpening I just put the stone on a counter with a sheet of neoprene using the suction of a very thin layer of water ( several drops ) to adhere sheet to smooth counter top. If I slide a wet stone side ways across the neoprene it sucks down and is quite immovable enough for any sharpening task.
Simple, simple.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 2/17/2009 4:18 am by roc
Derek,Regarding our discussion in the high angle thread, PLEASE take a look at the OPs question in this thread. This is what is wrong with woodworking. We cause newbies to get all excited about trivia. We don't make it easy to focus on the goal -- making masterpieces and either making money (professional) or having fun (hobbyist). Here is a poor guy who wants to know what type of "stone pond" is best for his waterstones. I guess he didn't read my thread about using waterstones dry. :-) Maybe we need research on the different types of plastic and how much they affect the waterstones? Maybe we need to have dividers in the pond to keep the waterstones from hitting each other? Maybe we need filter systems to be added to the ponds to keep the clean? Maybe we need automatic systems for adding chemicals to keep bad things from growing? Now please note that I am not suggesting a mere threade on "stone ponds". I am suggesting that we need someone who gets into the issue of watterponds as Brent Beach has gotten into edges.!!!!! Maybe we need hundreds of threads on stone ponds like we have on sharpening?Or maybe we need a way of helping folks who are new to this to focus on having a set of priorities????? Indeed why is this guy worried about mere water ponds when he could be worried about BU vs BD bench planes, and whether to go with LN, LV, Marcou, or all the way, with the $8000 handplanes of Holtey? Maybe we should have him read the work of Brent Beach.So tell me Derek, how do we help new woodworkers keep a useful set of priorities, and focus on those things which are the major contributors to doing good woodwork??It would be nice to help them see that they should focus on building skills, and on building furniture of increasing complexity, and they should read widely about different makers and designers to help them find their own design and construction goals.This is what my previous two messages were about in the other thread -- helping newer woodworkers to stay focussed on the things that matter most, and not on things that don't make much difference.Hope that helps you see where I was going.
Lataxe tells me that I shouldn't worry about newbies, and that I shouldn't take it upon myself to be their saviour. Well, I agree with him. I am not trying to save the newbies. I am trying to help the more experienced Knotheads, who love to focus on things which newbies should avoid, see the difference. I think that we are growing a culture of "middle-bees" who think that ultra-precision, and details of high-end tool design are the end-all and be-all of woodworking. Somehow, these newbies and middlebees are getting VERY ANXIOUS about inane and trivial details. What is the right word? They are getting overly uptight about things that aren't worth thinking about. Is this "modern culture" that is making them so fearful of making mistakes. "OHMYGOD, DID I BUY THE WRONG TYPE OF STONE POND?"I would like to see these newbies and middlebies find the sheer enjoyment of diving into woodwork, and focussing on making masterpieces and having fun, and not be paranoid about trivia. I sense that they are focussing on "Fear of Failure" rather than "Need for achievement". I need to go back and reread McClelland. Maybe we need to use Taylor's Manifest Anxiety Scale to identify woodworkers who need help, and come up with a new school of woodworking, called "The Joy of Woodworking".Of course, if a person really can only be happy by being miseable by delving into trivialities, then it is their right to do so, and I can provide them with lots of references.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You are so correct -- I sense that they are focussing on "Fear of Failure" rather than "Need for achievement".
So many people, me included, let the fear of having the wrong brand/model and other fear of failure manifestations keep me from doing the very thing I want to do.
Thanks for putting wisdom into plain and simple words.
Alan - planesaw
Edited 2/17/2009 11:36 pm ET by Planesaw
Alan,
Thanks for agreeing with me. However doing so may cause you to be branded as a heretic. Then there would be two of us. I have thought for a long time about this thing where too many woodworkers are becoming like sheep -- waiting to ask the experts what the answers to simple questions are. When we bring up our kids, we dont (or at least we shouldn't) do their thinking for them. It is better to give them hints to help them figure things out. If we give them "THE ANSWER" to each question they ask, they begin to believe that they need to go the THE EXPERTS to get the ANSWERS, instead of learning the fine art of problem-solving on their own. I believe that the most important attribute a woodworker must have is the self confidence to know that they can figure things out when they are in the shop.The way to do that is to give them practice at figuring things out, and not figuring the answers for them.Knots is riddled with:
1) questions which demonstrate that the asker never did any research on their question.
2) questions which ask "Which Bandsaw (or other tool) should I buy.IMHO, the answer to the both should be "Go do some research, then come back and ask questions to fill in the blanks. Never ask others to do your thinking for you." The rant continues!
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
> have thought for a long time about this thing where too many woodworkers are becoming like sheep -- waiting to ask the experts what the answers to simple questions are. When we bring up our kids, we dont (or at least we shouldn't) do their thinking for them. It is better to give them hints to help them figure things out. If we give them "THE ANSWER" to each question they ask, they begin to believe that they need to go the THE EXPERTS to get the ANSWERS, instead of learning the fine art of problem-solving on their own. I believe that the most important attribute a woodworker must have is the self confidence to know that they can figure things out when they are in the shop.<Well almost right in my less than humble opinion. Our society rewards people who, on the surface, HAVE gone to the experts. College graduates.Now I ask you what keeps this young person (your kid not the Col grad) who has been, ohmygod, given a place to start ( THE ANSWER ) from using that answer for a while, kicking it around the shop to knock the sharp corners off and then some day picking it up and bandsawing a hunk off and tossing that part in the bin and then adding legs to it. Huummm ?I mean if you are going to build a bicycle wheel do you expect the tike to just come up with the required length of spoke, which are supplied in one millimeter increments, by inventing the proper mathematical formula to calculated the length using the dimensions of the components or are you going to give the kid the formula.COME ON ! ! . . .BUT. then a few years go by and the guy/gal learns to simplify the process or to use a different tool or use a combination of tools in their own unique way. That is the stuff. Not sitting there in pain and confusion from the start.I remember attempting to layout and cut dovetails MY WAY before I had studied how it was done. What a bleed'n waste of time that was ! Much better to read everything (answers) I can get my hands on and ask three people for the answer and then begin. Perhaps after doing it their way about a thousand time I can come up with some eintsy improvement that is MY genius. Maybe. But in the mean time I have some pretty serviceable drawers rather than a few catastrophes that I can say I created allllll on my own !.Suddenly I feel like I am having dayjavue or how ever one spells that so I am quitting right here.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 2/18/2009 1:02 am by roc
Knots is riddled with:1) questions which demonstrate that the asker never did any research on their question. 2) questions which ask "Which Bandsaw (or other tool) should I buy.
You forgot 3!
3) Answers to questions 1 and 2.
Mel! Maybe the problem isn't the lame questions at all! Perhaps it's your need to read them and respond.
If you really want Knots to move away from these posts, start and respond to threads with 'real content'.
On no! Now I'm guilty of it too!
Oh No :-0
The internet will shrivel up and die if you stop reading and repeating everything for the noobs. Google has moved onto become an advertisement, so it is near impossible for the noobs to find relevant information to their insanely specific questions (see my diamond paste on benchstones thread for specific example)
Buster,
I actually do respond to newbie questions quite often, although I rarely respond with the answers to their questions. Rather, I suggest things for them to try and places to get information.In other words, I believe in helping people solve their issues by themselves. That doesn't mean that you tell them to answer the question without help, but rather that you put them on a path. The goal is a person who knows how to answer his own issues by knowing where sources of information are. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
oh mel,
isn't it nice to have goals...
geez, i'm sorry, were those your goals?eef
I actually do respond to newbie questions quite often, although I rarely respond with the answers to their questions. Rather, I suggest things for them to try and places to get information.
In other words, I believe in helping people solve their issues by themselves. That doesn't mean that you tell them to answer the question without help, but rather that you put them on a path.
You have multiple threads explaining this position. I actually enjoy your posts, but they've been trending towards being long and wordy without much real substance.
Newby's ask what we consider silly questions because they don't know any better. That comes with experience. Experience comes in many forms including asking silly questions. People get caught up in trivial things, sometimes the best way to put them on the 'right path' is to just give them the answer. Dancing around the question can keep people stuck on the path of trivial things.
Buster,
"I actually enjoy your posts, but they've been trending towards being long and wordy without much real substance."I will try to improve.
Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Well that was too short of an answer !
Not near enough info.
Who do you mean "I" ? Is it the you before reading Buster or the post Buster you ?Try? Are you menaing to showing doubt about your ability? Surely not; that is not you.
Probably you mean try as in tryplane. Could you clarify.What standards have you layed out?Thank you very much. How much? are we using the metric system or imperial ?ALL,
Water ? Oil ?
I propose you get a real sharpening system. One that uses a superior method of removing the metal waste from the stones. But I am not going to tell you what that method is. I am going to expect you to already know what it is.
To search for it. I am not going to tell you any key. If you are lucky somebody will post a clue.OK that makes me tired just typing it.
I propose we each just get a masively powerful electro magnet and pass the stones near it every once and a while.
No oil. No water. No endless rags with all kinds of different grits messing with the final edge as we try to wipe off the yuck.Just a wave of the hand and as if by magic . . . a fresh clean stone.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 2/20/2009 12:16 am by roc
Regarding our discussion in the high angle thread, PLEASE take a look at the OPs question in this thread. This is what is wrong with woodworking. We cause newbies to get all excited about trivia. We don't make it easy to focus on the goal -- making masterpieces and either making money (professional) or having fun (hobbyist).
Hi Mel
I have a reply for you and one for our OP.
OP first.
I do not like the Veritas Stone Pond. I have one - bought many years ago and it is unused. The problem with it is that it cannot be sealed and, as a result, the water eventually evaporates, and you end up with a dried cake of sludge at the bottom of the container. This is a problem if you are a Weekend Warrior. If you refill it daily, you should be OK.
For a stone pond to work well it must do two things - retain water, and support the waterstones. The Veritas does neither. There are flimsy aluminium holders that wobble. Enough said.
Get a plastic, Tupperware-type container, one that seals well. All Norton and King waterstones that are 2000 grit and below should live in water. All above this only need to be wetted before use. Shapton and similar ceramic-based stones are stored dry.
I have worked on a "waterstone board" for many years. Here is one (since modified as my needs have changed). It combines holding and flattening...
View Image
To the left is a length of clamped 220 grit drywall screen for flattening the waterstones. KIn the picture is a King 8000. I now use Shaptons and flatten with a diamond stone.
Some details:
View Image
My current set up is luxurious - I added a kitchen sink and running water to my workshop.
View Image
See the plastic containers below the sink..
Now Mel ...
How do you know what is "trivia" (aka "the small picture) until you are experienced (aka "the big picture"). It all looks the same when you are new to something.
You are doing it again. Someone asks a question that is not your interest and you chide them for intruding onto your forum! I am going to send you a "Ignore this Post" remote control, one that you can point at the computer screen, and move them (and yourself) on.
Your homework for today is to list all the topics that we may include under the heading "Woodworking".
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
You are a wonder!
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thank you sir. Thats an idea I had in find. Is neoprene a rubber mat? Where can you purchase neoprene?
> neoprene<
Yes. A rubber mat. It is NOT like a foam diving suit.I use 1/8" thick neoprene mat to protect counter. Purchased off a role at a bearing and hydraulic equip supply that sells retail. Heck, I covered a whole six foot work bench with the stuff. This is just the cut off.Have been using this set up for years and no damage to kitchen. Don't let it sit there for hours it will dry out and leave black residue. Can still clean off but takes time.Takes some coordination with the shef. Go slow and be patient. You are barging into her "shop" space. Yah I ment to spell it that way.More fun to sharpen with warm hands in the house Or rather, not fun to sharpen with ice water in my cold shop !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
I keep my waterstones in a tupperware. I made a version of a wooden bench hook with fences that would capture my stones. I have a sharpening bench (a laminated kitchen top counter) in a corner of my shop so that I can spray water on the stones and get everything dirty, but away from my bench. I also keep a bucket of water (5 gal) next to the sharpening bench to dunk off my stones occasionally and also my honing jigs, etc. This keeps me from spreading coarse grits to finer stones. The grit just settles to the bottom of the bucket. I sometimes put the stones on a shallow cookie sheet with some kitchen shelf liner (the rubberized open pore stuff) which keeps the stones from slidsing. I glue cork to the bottoms of my flattening stone and the cookie sheets to keep them from sliding around as well.
I'm about to go to market with one that has a reproduction, in miniature, of Thoreau's cabin at Walden Pond. Honing will finally be the evocative and transcendental experience it was meant to be.
Edited 2/17/2009 5:09 pm ET by Oilstone
Charles,
If that is indeed you, can you elaborate further on all that?Philip Marcou
Not sure I understand your question.
>Not sure I understand your question.<He: a) thinks you're someone else; and, b) doesn't get the irony. Since Thoreau was all about self-reliance, people who buy the Thoreau "Walden" stone pond should not expect any more help with their transcendental sharpening. It's questionable whether they should even post. <G> Take care, Ed
If honing stones need a pond do planes need a forest? I just love the word pond - makes me think of frogs and lily pads and cattails growing on the bank."He thinks you're somebody else." Well, most of the time I WISH I was somebody else - maybe a young, rich, good-looking dude.
Edited 2/18/2009 5:37 pm ET by Oilstone
Just see the light and go with oil stones and forgo the space needed for the special pond. You can sell all your waterstones (provided you have a set of 220, 1000, 4000 & 8000) and get an india stone, a translucent hard arkansas and a leather strop with rouge. You'll have enough change left over to get Leonard Lee's book on sharpening, the DVD Joel @ Tools for Working Wood has and dinner at Mickey D's for four.
Don't need no pond. Don't need no jig. Pay yer dues and learn to hold your tonque right!
T.Z.
Oilstone,
I like the idea of the Walden stone Pond. The directions for use ought to be very Thoreau. heheh Here's a suggestion : "Sharpify! Sharpify! Sharpify!"
Ray
Good one Joinerswork
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