I’m making a kitchen, and will cover MDF with thin stainless sheet to simulate solid steel (for splashbacks, toe spaces, deco strips).
I think I have the adhesion question sorted, but am about to try trimming the steel to size using a carbide bit to trim flush to the MDF substrate.
Any hints? Anyone done this?
Malcolm
Replies
Malcolm,
I would experiment, some stainless cuts fairly easily other grades are a bear to do anything with, I'd give it a 50/50 chance of working. If your woodworking bit doesn't make a good cut, a machinist's milling machine bit made especially for the job will be needed.
If there is still the option, get a water resistant MDF for the substrate, regular MDF swells up and then disintegrates when it gets the least bit wet, it shouldn't be used in kitchens.
In fact I would use a plywood backing. MDF expands and contracts with humidity changes, you may have problems with the final assemblies bowing when the weather changes.
John White
Shop Manager for FWW Magazine, 1998-2007
What JohnWW said about the bit for SS. I had to make two small dado like groves (about 2 inches long) in some thin SS so I took it to my buddy the machinist. Even with the appropriate bit on his milling machine and with cooling liquid it took some time. He told me that SS can be really hard on tools.
Good luck
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Malcolm,
I've done any number of jobs using stainless steel in various ways. You do not want to cut it with your woodworking tools. Router speeds are way, way too high; the steel needs to be cooled while cutting, etc. The way to go is to manufacture all your parts, then order stainless cut to the exact dimensions you need. Glue it on with contact. If you must, change the plans a bit and figure out ways to make it all come together without you having to cut the stainless.
I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but it's the way it is. BTW, there are HP laminates that are really good matches for many types of stainless, and in certain applications can solve the problem because you can machine them as you would any HPL. For instance, I did cabinets made of ply that were covered on the insides with HPL, but the doors were real stainless.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Avoid having to work the stainless. You should consider using aluminum for some of the surfaces. I used it in my kitchen for the toe kick area. Most people comment on the "stainless" look. In that application it is durable enough and I would think it would also work for ####backsplash. I buy rolled aluminum flashing that's in the roofing section at the builder's supply. You can cut it with a utility knife and router it with ease. The suggestion of using laminate is also a good one but might be more costly. The roll of al flashing actually comes in handy for all sorts of things in one's shop.
David Ring is correct, have it cut to size. Endmills are for metal but they run at speeds much slower than a router. I use endmills in a milling machine at average speed of 100 rpm's. Endmills do make a very nice straight cutting bit in a router ,for wood not metal.
mike
Malcolm,
This is definitely a tough problem. I worked with metal for a 20 years or so and if someone was making me do it this is what I would do......
First I would use fairly thin stainless steel stock. This is because anything of any real thickness is going to be impossible to work with.
Then I would use countertop substrate for the base material. That particle board stuff. Not MDF. MDF is too soft and the countertop material is fairly dense. So when something hits on the doors, it won't "dent" and show as easily.
Then I would glue the sheets of stainless on as expected... contact adhesive etc... with an over hang (which will be absolutely unavoidable). Then I would take a razor knife (not a cheap one) and I would score the backside of the over hang with a straight edge. If you stainless is thin enough (but not too thin of course) you should be able to bend it and "break" it off. This will leave a crazy rough edge. Sand it smooth with your choice of sander. All good!!!
Rob Kress
Thanks Guys
I've been doing some work on this.
The sheet material is 0.7mm thick (550mm wide, rolled up, I think I have about 20 metres). I can cut it with a pair of workshop shears. One side is mirror finished, but because I bought it from a metal recycler, this side is a bit marked. The other side has a peel-off protective coating and is 'satin' finished. Originally it was used to skin refridgerator doors I think. It was really cheap!
My local engineering supplies retailer also has doubts about using a carbide cutter in a router. Grabbing and heating are possible problems.
So - in the light of the advice from him, and above - my first approach is going to be to trim the backing sheet to finished dimensions, use it to accurately mark out the stainless, hand-cut the stainless to a 1mm tolerance, glue on, and then draw-file flush. With good technique I should be able to achieve a nice straight edge.
On the substrate question, behind the sink and hob I'll use a product called Hardibacker, used in NZ in bathrooms and under exterior plaster.
I'll post pics!http://www.macpherson.co.nz
If I were asked to try this, My thoughts on applying this sheet SS would likely be epoxy. I would test cut with an abrasive blade in a circular saw and a quality straight edge. If you develop a cut list a sheet metal shop can shear it quickly, cleanly, and accurately. Pay by the hour. That's a lot of time saved on your end. Just glue and press. Please let us know what method you settled on, and the results.Ron in Peabody
clip ... test cut with an abrasive blade in a circular saw ...That's something I should have thought of! My local NZ equivalent of Lowes/Home Depot sells circular saw blades that cut ferrous metal, and I have a vague notion I've read somewhere that Festool sell a spark arrestor and a ferrous metal blade. I also like the suggestion to develop a cutting list and get a metal shop to do it - if only! This is a small town in a small country and the nearest shop capable of doing that is a 2.5 hour drive away.I will do it myself, and I'll put up finished photographs. The spec for the kitchen, BTW, is a 3m bench in front of a window, and a 3m island unit, both with granite tops and NZ hardwood joinery, 3 sinks, end-grain chopping board, Blum self-closing drawers (no cupboards) ...Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
>circular saw blades that cut ferrous metalSame problem as router. Tooth speed is for cutting wood. To cut metal with chrome in it you are going to want slower tooth speed or the carbides are not going to last long. Big dif between mild steel or galvanized coated steel and stainless.Abrasive wheel may, probably will, cause the bright stainless to turn dark from the heat. Blue, black and gold/brown. Can sand that off but then you will need to sand the whole surface to blend it. Hard to duplicate the exact finish that is on the sheet.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
If you get that ss hot, as you will with a abrasive blade or any kind of a bit turning in a router, sanding disk or die grinder it will not only turn blue instantly. It will also warp and twist beyond your imagination.
Unless you really know how to TIG SS, it is not what you want to start out on. I used to build commercial kitchens, and there are a lot of tricks to welding SS. It has to be stitch welded so you heat it evenly, and you need to use cooling blocks as well. We liked to use hollow brass and if you can run water through them that is even better. It is so easy to damage with heat, the heat cause it to take on a whole new shape and size.
If you were to take it to a stainless shop and have it cut would be the best idea. We don't even cut anything besides SS on the tools used for SS. If you have a shear that cuts lets say galvanized, you don't wasn't to use it for SS.
As far as attaching it to a substrate all we ever use is a tube of clear silicone caulking.
Taigert
All I have to add is a couple more way, way ways
Router speeds are way, way, way, way, way, too high
One thing that could possibly do the job is one of those oscillating hand held spindle sanders.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5729
I see a problem when the abrasive wears and the drum bellow that area runs into the material you don't want to sand. Could put on another fresh drum for the last pass.
Make up a fence like you would have on your router. Use the blue sanding material rather than the red brown stuff. Use the largest drum it will take. Take many very light passes. Stainless is tough stuff. Has chrome and nickel in it.
No doubt you could order a counter made up the way you envision it. If getting it sheered to size maybe worth just letting them make the counter.
My tig welder welds stainless. One of the things the tig welder was invented for. Or THE thing it was invented for come to think of it.
Once welded then can grind/sand the edge as you like it. Maybe get the sheet metal folded where you were going to have two pieces meet. I don't work with sheet metal much but they use a big old folding machine called a break to do this in the sheet metal shop then just weld and grind the corners to make it look solid.
OK I did add a bit more. Kind of stream of consciousness. Good luck.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 7/6/2009 2:59 am by roc
Edited 7/6/2009 3:00 am by roc
You know . . . the best, cheepest, fastest, way may be to just get the bigest mill file you can find, I have a couple that are 22", and just hand file it.
I looked to find a linc for you but 16" was the largest I could find.
Call one or both of these
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=2131200&PMT4NO=0
http://www.shoptools.com/
and ask for 20" or 22"
I got mine through work but I bought an equally long round file from the second linc and I think I got a flat one from the first MSC linc as well. I have a ~20 incher at home and at work. Nice to have !
Push it one direction and then lift and return; don't file back and forth or you will wear it out on the stainless.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 7/6/2009 3:45 am by roc
clip ... best, cheapest, fastest, way may be to just get the bigest mill file you can find ... and just hand file itBeen diverted onto other stuff (including the day job) since starting this topic and haven't been able to get my hands on the roll of SS. Will try this weekend. The more I think about this the more I'm inclined to try your approach first (I won't be able to resist trying my router, with the speed dialed right down, but I'm prepared to be disappointed).If you click on the link below you'll see that I can work metal with hand tools OK, but I don't think I've explained anywhere how I use a router to end mill brass for plane sides. It goes everywhere, but jigged-up securely the result is great.Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Malcolm
I notice that your just another uneducated Woodworker. I had a woman not that was not happy with me one day who told me "that I was so uneducated that I couldn't get a real job, instead I am one of those who has to do menial tasks for others".
If only she knew how many degreed Woodworkers there are out here.
By the way I love the tote on that scorpion, that's outrageous.
Taigert,
But are you a travelling man?
Edited 7/8/2009 9:18 am ET by Taigert
clip ... But are you a travelling man?
Have been all my life, mate!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Malcolm,
Just had the feeling you were after seeing your web site.
Having more light, when working with tools is always helpful.
Taigert
Hi Malcom,I do think that router and stainless steel do not go to gather the speed it way to fast.
Aluminium yes i have done that a lot.
Did you know that we have a NZ forum for wood workers.
Have a look here wwp.co.nz/forum/
We do not have as many members as on this one but we have to start sometime and the more the better.
hope you like the NZ forum.
When you have problems with signing in let me know, we had a lot of spammers and trolls mucking about in the forum but i installed better protection against that.
This means also that it is a bit harder to enrol.
Cheerio Bernhard
>woman who told you "that I was so uneducated that I couldn't get a real job, instead I am one of those who has to do menial tasks for others".Did you tie her up in a sack and drown her before she could breed ?Just a thought.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc,
It was too late she had already propagated rather contaminated the earth.
Taigert
Pity. Oh well we must soldier on. She was probably beside her self because she had just discovered what it was going to cost to turn her evil spawn into " educated " dummies.All we can hope is the genes mutated in one generation into those of a human. Hey with all the loose radiation floating around from Tjernobyl and who nows what was let loose in China we don't know about. It could haaaappen.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Update today.I chopped up most of my 15m (50 foot) by 550mm roll of stainless today. The protected side is satin-finished, and the reverse mirror-finished. It's got some damage (hence bought from a recycler) but the bits I'm using are perfect.Here's what I did: invested in a new pair of metal shears with long straight blades. Marked out carefully and hand-cut just outside the line. Glued a trial piece directly to an MDF plinth front, and it seems to have worked. Factory edge to the floor, cut edge at the top of the plinth, up under the kitchen cabinet, in the toe space where it won't show. Shiny side (scuffed with sandpaper) in.I got to the end of the day, down to the last few pieces (Im also going to face drawers and a splash-back in steel) and remembered my little angle grinder fitted with a 1 mm cut off disk. So thin it doesn't heat the metal, cuts through plate like butter.Yes - it raced through the 0.7mm with no heat marking! Tricky to keep exactly on the line, but with a bit of better technique this is how I'll trim to near final (fileable) sizes.Problem solved. Let's hope it stays stuck!Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
>use a router to end mill brass for plane sides. It goes everywhereLooks like you are no stranger to metal work !I can relate to " brass goes everywhere ". I used to work in a fine art bronze foundry. They used high speed air driven grinders with metal cutting burrs in the grinders.The little needles wound up in my socks, in my hair even with a bandana tied on, in my . . . well we won't go there but there wasn't any place the bronze filings didn't visit.Wouldn't consider using the burs on stainless. Would need to use abrasive stone bits and sanding discs.Thanks for the page you sent. Quite interesting ! You are one busy person !I really like cocobolo and in your hand planes it is all first class !
rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
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