Hello,
This forum is new to me (I’m a veteran of Cooks Talk), so I thank you in advance for your help. I am a weekend do-it-yourselfer who has decided to take on a couple of new things. I stained an unfinished picture frame and the results were okay. The stain was kind of uneven – some parts dark and some light. I used a sponge brush to apply it. Was that a mistake? As it turns out, I liked the aged look.
My real issue is with the unfinished maple doors that I want to stain for some cabinets I bought. I want to make the main part of the door (i.e., not the moulding) a medium amber color and the moulding a dark brown. Should I do the door or the moulding first? Should I use painters tape to cover the areas that I don’t want to stain? Water-based or oil-based? For the moulding, should I use a small brush to apply it?
What should I know that I’m not asking because I don’t know any better?
Thanks much.
Jocelyn
P.S. I am replicating a finish on the doors that I saw in a magazine. I can scan the picture and post it if that would help with the advice. Thanks.
Replies
" I can scan the picture and post it if that would help with the advice"
Why don't you do that -- I think it would help get a better idea of what you are aiming for.
I scanned it in color so you could see the detail, but it's pretty big. Hope you can open it.
Thanks for your help.
Jocelyn
Edited 6/5/2004 7:48 pm ET by jocelyng
I did try to open it, but got the following:
The image “http://attach.prospero.com/n/docs/docDownload.aspx?guid=62F30188-678B-4191-90F3-D79F832C213A&webtag=tp-knots” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.
Any idea what all that means, or what the problem is?
I don't know beans about this stuff, but I do know that big attachments are often resized for forum repondents to make them smaller, and more manageable for the rest of us. Do you know how to do that?
I just checked and opened it without a problem. I will post it to my Yahoo account and you can see it at http://photos.yahoo.com/jegrayson. Click on cabinet door.
Thanks for trying.
Jocelyn
We're having a time of it, aren't we?
I tried the Yahoo link, and there is nothing for "cabinet door". I went into the "Kitchen" -- but nothing there either.
Argh. I forgot to make it open to the public. Try again, if you don't mind. It should work now.
Thanks for your patience.
Jocelyn
I finally did get through to the pic (yahoo site), and I am assuming this is not a pic of your cabinet -- but rather an idea for what you're trying to achieve.
rob has posted a slick (and creative) technique, which I think will work very well -- depending on the type of stain you are using.
We've got kind of "instant messaging" thing going here, so let's back up and let me ask you a couple of questions:
1) The wood on your doors is maple, right? That means the panel, as well as the stiles and rails (which may be what you call moldings).
2) Are you aware of the different families of stains -- especially penetrating oil stains and gelled stains?
3) Maple is one of those woods that gets what we call "blotchy" when stained with a penetrating oil. Do you know anything about this phenomenon and how to prevent it?
4) What stain exactly are you proposing to use for the project (brand, name of stain)? Are you open to another type of stain -- assuming you could find the color you want?
Shoot me some answers, and we'll go from there. I'll tell you what I would do, and then hope others here will throw in their comments.
Here are my replies to your posting. As for Rob's suggestions, I'm a little confused about the instructions. The rails and stiles are glued onto the door, so there isn't a way to slip something underneath. I'll re-read it when I'm not so tired and maybe it will make more sense.
1) The wood on your doors is maple, right? That means the panel, as well as the stiles and rails (which may be what you call moldings). Yes. Solid maple
2) Are you aware of the different families of stains -- especially penetrating oil stains and gelled stains? I did know this but don't have any experience with anything other than the liquid stain that I used for the picture frame.
3) Maple is one of those woods that gets what we call "blotchy" when stained with a penetrating oil. Do you know anything about this phenomenon and how to prevent it? I had no idea about this. Whatever you can tell me would be helpful.
4) What stain exactly are you proposing to use for the project (brand, name of stain)? Are you open to another type of stain -- assuming you could find the color you want? I'm not wedded to any product. I just want to get this look, so whatever you all think is the best way to go is what I'll do.
Thanks again for taking the time to look at the picture. Obviously, I'm a little out of my depth here, and I am really afraid to make a mistake (custom cabinet doors being far more expensive than unfinished pine picture frames).
Jocelyn
Jocelyng, a frame and panel door should be built with a loose panel, not glued to the frame. My approach was meant to avoid "wicking" of the dark stain onto the edges of the panel, which could be exposed when the wood shrinks seasonally. If yours are gleud in place, then masking tape+painstaking care should do the job.
All this back and forth has me very nervous about doing this myself. I think I will bite the bullet and call a finisher. Next time, what wood do you recommend for this kind of treatment? I don't really want the wood grain to show (which is one of the reasons I chose maple, not realizing the reasons not to). Now that I think of it, I wonder if I could achieve the same look with paint (sanding off some of it). How does that grab you?
Jocelyn
Among the commonly available cabinet woods, I would say maple is the best choice if you want to do a two-toned finish on the doors. You need to deal with the blotchiness issue, which really isn't as hard as it probably sounds.
re: paint. This is where personal taste reigns supreme. Maple takes paint well, but most around here would say there are other, less expensive woods (poplar) or materials (MDF) that could be used for a painted surface. Kitchen cabinet doors take a lot of hard wear, and the appearance of a painted surface will not hold up over time.
I think it would be prudent to call in an expert finisher to discuss your options, and then turn the job over to someone who seems to have the skills and moxie you trust. Getting a decent finish on a kitchen's worth of cabinets is a pretty tall mountain to climb for a person with no climbing experience.
Thanks. I should say that there are only two doors and they are for built-in cabinets surrounding my living room fireplace. They won't get a lot of use, so if I paint them, it should hold up alright.
Thanks.
Jocelyn
So, I went to a furniture finisher/restorer today and he was concerned about the stenciling part of the project. I assumed that I would just emboss the stencil on with embossing powder and a heat gun after he was done staining. He wondered if a) the heat gun would ruin the finish, and b) whether the powder would take to the stain. Do you have experience with applying something on top of a stained surface? He also suggested putting on the stencil midwaythrough the process (i.e., before the sealer). How does that grab you?
Jocelyn
Don't give up! Try this: Go to the stain people and tell them you want a stain that can be painted over. (Or if you have the stain already, try some on scrap and make sure it doesn't bleed thru the paint you'll use.) If it bleeds thru, you can get a "stain killer" to use as an undercoat. Then, stain the entire door with the light stain. Let it dry after wiping as per directions, and see if you like it. If yes, mask with tape and carefully stain the appropriate areas with the dark stain. If you still like it, let dry and put a gloss or semigloss or satin finish on it. If not, paint it.
Doors, $100
Stain $10
Stain Killer, $10
Paint $10
Experience gained, Priceless.
I left the cabinets at the finisher. I fear that if I take them back, I must do it myself. Maybe I will leave them there and try your suggestion tomorrow. Did you see my sample picture by any chance? It is at http://photos.yahoo.com/jegrayson. Click on cabinet door. Do you know anything about applying an embossed stencil over the stained finish? I believe that is what they did here.
The guys at the paint shop are very familiar with me and my wacky projects. Last time I was there I was painting out two kidney bean shaped tables in metallic gold and silver. They said their customers typically did picture frames in metallic paint. Not me LOL!
Jocelyn
P.S. My tables look great (even if they were a ton of work).
It's hard to tell from the photo, but that cabinet door looks like the panel is held in with a separate "panel stop" or molding which was probably stained separately.
I have no experience with stencils, nor even any theoretical knowlege about using them. Rob
Re: stencils
I've had just two limited experiences with stencils.
The first was with an antique sled I refinished. After two coats of varnish, I applied the stencil, and then did a final coat of the varnish (to protect the stencil). The stencil is still in pristine condition, despite years of having stuff and junk piled on the stenciled surface.
The other time, I applied a stencil to the back of some alkyd painted kid chairs I built. After the stencils were applied, I brushed on a coat of water-based polyurethane over the seat and back. I saw the chairs recently in the client's house, and the stencils were still in good shape after some 10 years of wear and tear.
I picked up some unfinished maple samples and the finisher agreed to stain them for me. I'm going to pick them up on Monday and try out a couple of stencil ideas. I'll be able to decide on the stain colors as well as the stencil layout before anything is finalized.
Thanks for all your advice.
Jocelyn
The door has a panel which goes into the frame probably 3/8" or so. Seasonally, it will expand and contract, exposing wood previously covered. Here's what I'd do:
1. Stain the panel 1st. Some of the stain will go under the molding, which is good.
2. Let it dry completely. Then take thin sheets of plastic or paper and slide them under the molding, into the crack between the panel and the molding, to act as a mask.
3. Carefully put the dark stain where you want it, using a small brush, wet with stain but not dripping. Don't pull out the paper or plastic until everything is dry.
Good Luck.
My recommendation is to test your staining method(s) on scrap pieces before you try to stain the actual cabinets. Maple tends to blotch quite easily, even when using so-called pre-stain conditioners, and can be very difficult for non-professional finishers to stain.
I don't wish to rain on your parade, so to speak, but I'd hate to hear that your investment in solid maple cabinetry didn't turn out the way you wanted it to.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
What can you say about people that have nothing better to do on a Saturday night than diddle around on a woodworking forum ........................????
"jazzdog"is absolutely correct; getting this right will not be easy, and as you will see, I too recommend that you do your practicing on sample boards (see below).
Anyway, here's my spiel -- which I will give you in the form of "do this, do that", instead of a long-winded discussion of all your options (which are many).
1) Check out the gelled stains available from Woodkote or Bartleys. See if you can find two contrasting colors that strike your fancy. The upside of these stains is that they lay on top the surface, and will therefore not leave areas that are blotchy. The down side: they somewhat obscure the wood's grain, which is not usually pronounced in maple, so IMO is not a big deal.
2) Buy a maple board and experiment. Unfortunately, there are two types of maple commonly available (hard and soft), and not always marked as such in home centers.
If your cabinets are top of the line, I would guess the doors are made from hard maple, so that's the kind of sample board you want. Ask, and keep asking until you're satisfied that what they have is the hard stuff. Otherwise, go to a real lumber yard. Assuming you don't have much in the way of cutting equipment, get them to cut the board(s) in 12" pieces.
3) If you can't find gell stains in suitable colors, or if you're bothered by the way they obscure the grain, go to plan B.
Which is:
4) Buy a penetrating oil stain in the two colors you like. I recommend plain old Minwax stains (which are oil with some dye thrown in). They are easy to find, easy to work with, and pretty much as good as any other oil stain.
5) Buy a can of SEAL COAT (Zinsser) and a can of denatured alcohol. Mix a batch with half each. SC is a dewaxed shellac and will prevent the stain from blotching the maple. Take one of your sample maple boards, and brush on the mix (china bristle brush). When dry (less than an hour), sand lightly, but evenly with 220 grit sandpaper. Wipe off the dust.
6) Now apply the Minwax stains.
If you're pleased with your test results, come back here, and we will move on the the next step.
On the other hand, if you are dissatisfied, or have lots of trouble getting it right, seriously consider hiring a finishing expert. A less than perfect finish on your great cabinets will ruin your day.
It also wouldn't hurt to buy a book or two: Bob Flexner's UNDERSTANDING WOOD FINISHING is the classic in the field, and I would also check out any of Jeff Jewitt's books to see which one fits your needs best (at the moment, I think he has 3-5).
Keep in touch. And good luck.
Thanks to both you and Jazzdog for your clear answers. Ironically, I picked maple because it is a good, hard wood. I had no idea that it was hard to stain. I will go to the lumber yard tomorrow and see what I can do myself. I'll let you know.
Thanks again.
Jocelyn
P.S. My daughter (6) and I watched a 50-year old Cary Grant movie last night in between postings, so the evening wasn't all about staining LOL!
Maple is a great cabinet wood, but it is most often given a natural finish without stain. In that case, the blotchiness thing is not a problem.
Have you ever seen one of my own favorite Cary Grant films, "Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House?" Shot in the late forties, it is funny, charming -- and most appreciated by anyone who has built or renovated a house. I saw it again just recently, so it still pops up occasionally on some of the cable movie channels.
Good luck with your doors.
I just bought the new CG box set, and Mr. Blandings is what we watched! The miseries of home improvement certainly resonated. I'm always subjecting my kids to old movies, and my daughter enjoyed this one. My husband and son (12) recently saw Rear Window at a revival theater and we joined them for The Thin Man, the second half of the double feature.
Jocelyn
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