Replies

1. 
   DennisS | Jul 30, 2003 08:29am | #1

   Kevin -

   I've never used walnut husks for wood stain but I can definitely attest to the power and permanence of their coloration potential! We have a Carpathian Walnut tree in our front yard. Not every year, but frequently, we have an ABUNDANCE of walnuts from this tree.

   What a helluva mess.

   If we don't pick them up rght away they stain the walk and driveway something fierce. And that stain lasts through the entire winter - here in the PNW with all the rain we get, that's quite a feat.

   I've always been tempted to try using these husks for something more constructive than turning my sidewalk a deep dark brown. Would it be too much trouble to briefly outline the process of extractin the dye from the walnut husks as given in the article?

   Thanks in advance.

   By the way - merely soaking the husks in water and adding a little vinegar makes a beautiful dye for easter eggs!

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

1. 
   Kevin | Jul 30, 2003 06:31pm | #2

   Dennis,

   Here's what the magazine says about extracting the stain:

   "First, get a lot of green, not ripe, black walnuts and squeeze them to extract their juice. Unless you have a walnut press, peel the husks, put these husks between two pieces of sealed plywood (plywood with finish on it to keep the extract from soaking in), and set some concrete blocks on top. Angle the walnut sandwich so the extract flows into a container. After a few days you should have a small amount of liquid. Let it evaporate, and a small amount of crystals will remain."

   There is a drawing to illustrate how to do this. It shows the two sealed pieces of plywood with the crushed husks inbetween, seeping liquid and a large cinder block on top for weight. The drawing shows the entire jury-rigged press being propped up at an angle by having the backside of it rest on what looks like a piece of 2x2, the entire thing being situated on the edge of a work bench with a plastic tub sitting on a stool underneath the bottom edge of the contraption, collecting the liquid.

   Here's what it says about turning these crystals into usable stain:

   "When you're ready to use the crystals, dissolve them in a small amount of boiling water. Add water until you're happy with the tone. At its lightest, you'll get a golden oak hue, but this stain can go all the way to black. Homemade walnut stain applies like any water-base dye, except that when applied in a highly concentrated form (for darker tones) it's thick and sludgy..."

   What this comes from is one of those "ask the experts" type of question and answer forums that all of the woodworker magazines seem to feature. This one is called "Ask Wood" and the question and answer on the walnut stain is the very last question and answer.

   I'm familiar with the staining power of the English Walnut. Anyone who has harvested the nuts from an orchard, which I did as a kid, knows how potent a stain the husks contain. I'm guessing that the Black Walnut is featured here because it has a more potent pigment than the other Walnuts have?

   Regards,

   Kevin

2. 
   RMillard | Jul 30, 2003 07:36pm | #3

   I have used the walnut husk “stain” to color several pieces. I have not used it from dried crystals , but only as the liquid resulting from soaking the husks in ammonia, and then straining out the solids. I gathered the husk without regard for their condition ( rotted and not rotted) and soaked them in white ammonia for a couple of weeks, and then bottled the resulting liquid. This is not a pleasant task, as the husk and ammonia stink, and there are usually maggot in the husks. The resulting stain does a great job of coloring mahogany and walnut. I bottled mine in full and half strength mixtures, and I have on occasion diluted this even further with distilled water. After some time the ammonia smell of the liquid in the bottle goes away, but it is replaced by another no more attractive smell. I have used this stain under oil, shellac and varnish with no problems. I believe that Woodworker Supply sells the crystals .To be honest, I see no advantage to this dye over what can be has with aniline dyes, but I made it since it was a traditional coloring to go with my period reproductions. I have attached a photo of a mahogany sideboard top I colored with the walnut husk stain.

                                                  Rob Millard                       

   
1. 
   Kevin | Jul 30, 2003 08:46pm | #4

   Hmmm... interesting. I like the color imparted to the mahogany. It sounds to me like the crystals would be a more user-friendly way of working with this particular stain. I am curious, though, as to why the magazine specified that the stain should be acquired from the immature green husks. I wonder if the strength or quality of the dye is stronger or different. Perhaps it's something as simple as the odor that you referred to. I don't imagine that the green husks would smell as bad, not to mention the lack of maggots. LOL

   Knowing that Walnut oil is a drying oil and can be used as a finish, coupled with this traditional walnut stain.... leaves me considering a project using nothing other than these two natural finishing products to finish a project. What to use it on is something that I still haven't decided on. Perhaps on some English Walnut since that's a lighter colored wood, and because it's a walnut. I'm a huge fan of our modern finishing product and use them all the time. But, there's a certain appeal to this considered project that I can't deny.

   Thanks for the response!

   Regards,

   Kevin

1. 
   jonsherryl | Jul 30, 2003 09:26pm | #6

   >>..."I am curious, though, as to why the magazine specified that the stain should be acquired from the immature green husks."<<

   This is just a guess, Kevin, but it might have something to do with capturing the juglone while it is still hydrojuglone. Once it polymerizes to the dark pigment, it gets pretty indelible...Although, ammonia will cause it to "migrate" or go into solution (leach out?) Boiling the husks (heat?) also seems to causes some migration, without taking forever...but the ammonia works best.  Personally, I don't see any benefit (other than avoiding the ammonia odor) for processing it to crystals. Getting the juice out of those husks by pressing, probably ranks right up there with milking fireflies when it comes to labor intensity.  Plus you have to build the press.

   Edited 7/30/2003 2:31:38 PM ET by Jon Arno

1. 
   Kevin | Jul 30, 2003 10:57pm | #7

   This is just a guess, Kevin, but it might have something to do with capturing the juglone while it is still hydrojuglone. Once it polymerizes to the dark pigment, it gets pretty indelible...

   This brings up another question. Could this hydrojuglone be more susceptible to oxidization or otherwise fading over time due to sunlight? When you put it in terms of delible versus indelible... I think I'd prefer the indelible, assuming of course that the indelible would somehow be more stable.

   While, given your comparison between the methods used, it clearly would be faster and easier to just leach the color out with ammonia, it occurs to me that using the presumably more tradtional method of pressing and refining into crystals would yield a stain that could be manipulated to a wider range of hues by changing the dye to vehicle (water) ratio. An added bonus would be that one wouldn't have to smell ammonia either. <G>

   Regards,

   Kevin

1. 
   jonsherryl | Jul 30, 2003 11:51pm | #8

   >>"This brings up another question. Could this hydrojuglone be more susceptible to oxidization or otherwise fading over time due to sunlight?"<<

   Kevin, you've got me guessing again, but I doubt if this is an issue. I suspect the reason for wanting to trap (extract) the juglone as hydrojuglone is that it can be seperated from the husk tissue more easily via a press method. I further suspect that the "crystalization' that forms probably contains the polymer, since it is at that point a dark pigment. Once applied, I doubt if it would be more fugitive than walnut stain derived by the other (ammonia) method.

   As for the longer tradition of expressing this pigment (if that's true?), it may be that the process is similar (using a press) to the process of extracting walnut oil from the meat of the nut...which is indeed a very old tradition. Walnut oil was a favorite finish used by the master furniture makers during the reign of Louis XIV of France and it wasn't a new idea even then.

   I don't know how far back walnut oil goes. It wouldn't surprise me if this oil was used in the Mediterranean region at least as long ago as classical times and might predate the use of flax as an oil source...but I can't document that. It just seems rational, since we know that walnuts were a part of the human diet (and walnuts were transported and planted by migrating tribes coming out of Central Asia) well back into the Stone Age...while flax as a crop  (probably first for weaving cloth) is a newer development, arriving with the first stationary civilizations...So, mankinds relationship with walnut is by far the older of the two.

   Kevin, you do ask interesting questions. If you happen to run across any documented answers (beyond my guesses here) please share them. 

   Edited 7/30/2003 4:56:09 PM ET by Jon Arno

   Edited 7/30/2003 5:27:50 PM ET by Jon Arno

2. 
   Kevin | Jul 31, 2003 01:23am | #9

   Well... since you are the only one hazarding guesses, and they seem rational given your explanations, I'm probably going to have to be content with this. If I do learn something more definitive, I'll be sure to post it here.

   Now for a question related to your response but unrelated to the subject... How old is the usage of shellac? Does it predate the use of walnut oil? Actually, the question that sprang to mind when I was reading your post was whether anyone ever used walnut oil on musical instruments like violins. Or was walnut oil pretty much just a furniture finish? For some reason this whole idea of extracting substances from the tree itself and then turning around and using those same substances to finish furniture or whatever made from the milled lumber from the same tree is deeply intriguing to me. It's a nice, tidy circle. LOL

   Regards,

   Kevin

   Edited 7/30/2003 7:13:41 PM ET by Kevin

3. 
   musick | Jul 31, 2003 02:42am | #10

   I don't think moisture content of the husk has anything to do with the ability of the husk to produce color capable of staining, more so it determines which extraction method will work the best.

   Dark brown to black husk that are not completely dry produce a lot of stain and will stain your hands simply by picking the walnuts of the ground, at least in the case of Black Walnut nuts.

   I used to use the husk at this stage of drying to stain my traps every fall before the winter trapping season. It did an excellant job of staining the steel. I simply boiled the husk, walnuts and all and threw in the traps. The water would stain your hands for days and wouldn't come out of clothing.

4. 
   jonsherryl | Jul 31, 2003 03:01am | #11

   Kevin, I'm a little more up to speed on your latest batch of questions here...but again, not really an expert.

   Shellac is a resin exuded by the lac bug native to southern Asia (In and around India and Indochina originally.) It's use there predates its inclusion into our western cabinetmaking tradition, but I recall reading somewhere that its arrival as a finish in western Europe was sometime in the 1600s. It was probably first brought back by Dutch trading ships and its use quickly spread throughout Northwestern Europe and even into the American colonies. I use a lot of shellac, especially as a first-coat sealer and think it's become a much too underrated choice these days...having been pushed out of the lime light by the modern synthetics, like polyurethane and the water based acrylics, which I don't have much use for.

   Penetrating oils are a bad idea on musical instruments, since they alter the tonal qualities of the wood. The traditional finishes used on these instruments (violins) were spirit varnishes based on tree resins (copals) like sandarac (SP?). These tree resins actually have a very long tradition as wood finishes, I think dating back to ancient Egypt...but they were applied without dilution in a solvent... in other words they appear to have been sort of spread on as a gooey mass and allowed to slowly harden. I'm not really an expert on the formulation of these early instrument finishes and have, in fact, been trying to dig into the subject myself lately. There are some experts who have done research in the field over the past couple of decades and, of course, there are multiple opinions. I'm sure we have some Knots regulars who could add to this discussion...Or you could try a google search on Violin Finishes. 

   Many modern instrument makers (guitars) use lacquer, but this finish was unavailable prior to World War I. In fact, it was developed as a result of the over abundance of gun cotton at the conclusion of that war. Some of the higher oil varnishes used in furniture making aren't the best for instrument use either, because of their deadening plasticity, but I think lacquer is a reasonable choice. At least I use it.

   I'm a musical instrument maker of sorts (crude dulcimers) and the great early (19th century) makers of these fretted dulcimers weren't real particular about finishes. One of the best known of them, a Kentucky maker called Ed Thomas was once asked why he sometimes painted his black and he responded by saying he had some left over from painting the barn and wasn't about to waste it. Now, thats why I like dulcimer making. It's the only corner of the art of instrument making that has yet to succumb to rigid conventions. I take my freedoms seriously.

   Edited 7/30/2003 8:13:25 PM ET by Jon Arno

2. 
   jonsherryl | Jul 30, 2003 09:08pm | #5

   Rob, the process you describe is basically the same one I've used for many years and I wrote a Q&A response for FWW on this subject (can't remember when it ran, but it goes back 10 years or so.)

   It's important to use CLEAR (non sudsing) ammonia, rather than the soapy type. Otherwise, the process involves simple leaching. It would take longer, but you could probably do it with water, or by boiling the husks. When using ammonia, you just stuff the husks in a jar, top it up with the ammonia and screw the lid on. The stain becomes darker over time, but after a month or so it is an acceptably rich walnut brown color. It's a very flexible stain in that multiple coats yield progressively darker hues...and also the stain can be diluted with ordinary tap water for lighter shades. Because, technically, it is a water based stain , it will raise the grain. so I usually use a two coat method, i.e., dilute the stain below the shade I want, apply a coat, let it dry, lightly sand the surface and then apply the final coat. You can also just apply a water rub down as the first coat (to raise the grain) if you're aiming for a light color and don't want to risk getting it too dark.

   Once toroughly dry, I've had no compatability problems with either shellac or alkyd varnishes. I never use polyurethanes or water based acrylics and, while I occasionally use lacquer, I haven't tried it over this stain...But I can't think of a chemical reason why virtually any finish couldn't be used. Both the ammonia and the water evaporate out of it and only the walnut extractives (primarily juglone) remain on (in) the wood...so, it is virtually the same as applying any of these finishes on raw walnut.

   The color can be leached from fresh (green) husks or husks that have begun to decompose. I always preferred to pick up fully ripe, decomposing walnuts off the ground after the first frost, just like you'd harvest them to extract the mature nuts...In fact, my stain making has always been a secondary benefit of gathering the nuts for food. The stain seems to have a virtually infinite shelf life and I used some just last month that had been jarred back in the early '90s. I've only used black walnuts (Juglans nigra) for making my stain and suspect Carpathian walnut husks (Juglans regia, AKA: Persian or English walnut) would yield a less intense color...But the stain is so flexible, the net result would probably be that you could attain a similar range of hues by means of additional coats.

   The stain produces a beautiful, truely walnut-like color even on pine. Although, when using it on oak (especially if the stain is fairly fresh) you have to adjust (dilute it just a bit) to compensate for the additional, slight darkening affect of the ammonia-tannin reaction....This stuff has a lot going for it: nice color, exceptionally "adjustable" and as cheap as a bottle of grocery store ammonia (about a buck a quart)...but you've got to apply it wearing rubber gloves and with good ventilation. You'll never forget the aroma.