Hello, I just started spraying the kitchen cabinets I built. Using SW pro classic latex paint. I have most of the boxes done and am working on the doors and drawer fronts. I have some hooks that fit in the hinge holes to hang the doors while spraying. Anyone have any ideas or tricks to hanging the drawer fronts with no holes? I hat to lay them flat and have to turn over when dry. I never got good results that way. I also planned on putting a clear coat on after two coats of paint. Probably water based poly or maybe lacquer. Any thoughts on this? Is it needed? How long do I need to let the paint dry before applying?
Thanks
Dana
Edited 2/25/2009 7:17 am ET by montec24
Replies
Can't answer your question but would you mind telling me your setup for spraying latex paint?
I use the Earlex 5000 and am very happy with it, it has worked flawless so far. Other than that not much to it, I have a huge heated basement garage area that I plastic and tarp off. Put a fan blowing out and I am good to go. i do need to thin the paint but this hasn't been a problem. I use level-eze I think its called and it works well. I am not a very good finisher but have been doing very well (I think) with this setup and Sherwin Williams Pro Classic paint.
Good to know your getting good results. I have the same setup but can't seem to make it work for latex. What tip size are you using?
1.5 I wish I knew enough to give you advice but still learning myself!
The only point of a clear coat of a waterborne would be aesthetic--the Pro Classic will be just as durable as the clear finish would be. You could apply it as soon as you could apply another coat of Pro Classic, since they have basically the same chemistry.
Putting a lacquer over the Pro Classic could be a very bad idea. Lacquer's stronger solvents have the potential to lift finishes applied under them. I wouldn't risk it.
I just finished my first spray job. Why did I wait so long? No idea of how to hang without holes, so I used some finish nails and mechanics wire. I did find the plastic pyramids from Lee Valley very handy. No more finish nails in boards for me.
Did you use floetrol or water to thin your Latex?
Brad
Dana, If they are applied draw faces you can do one of two things with the hangers you are using on the doors.
1, drill a hole in the back of the draw face as you would for the hinge where it will not be seen and hang from there.
2, If you can not deal with the hole then drill holes in srap, cut out squares with hole in each and use double sided tape to stick the squares to the backside of the draw face .
Tom.
Dana,
I have to tell you that the professional shops I know, including my own, always spray doors and drawer fronts lying flat. Then they are moved to drying racks which are also perfectly level. In a hanging situation you are much too likely to get build-up of finish that flows to the bottom before it sets, drips, etc. One instance of drip or heavy application that doesn't dry quickly will slow down the process much more than turning pieces over.
There is the element of drying time before you can turn pieces over, but in actual practice (we never spray latex paints) by the time you've finished the last one in a set of kitchen doors, the first one is ready to turn. Spray the back sides first so that you end the run spraying the "good sides".
The spraying is done on an improvised turntable, which allows you to hit every angle without dancing around, and keeping the overspray aimed at the exhaust filters.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Thanks everyone, I pretty much hung them using the blocks with double sided tape. This weekend I go back to spraying so I won't know till then how it works. I used Floetrol in the past but this time the guy at the Sherwin Williams store recommended another product I think it's called xtend eze or something like that. seems to work well. I 'm still new at spraying so still working out the kinks but like it so far. Definetly going to set myself up better and like the truntable idea from ring. I will also see how it goes hanging everything and maybe give it a try next time laying things flat. Using a rack woudl save a ton of space but worry about leaving marks in the paint finish.
Thanks all
Dana
Hi DanaI'm no pro, but I have painted quite a few doors with latex paint and an HVLP gun this year. I agree that they need to be flat in order to avoid runs. The technique I use is to put little finish nails in the top and bottom of doors. That way you can lay the doors on your drying rack (1x2s across sawhorses)without the doors touching the rack. After the doors are dry, you can patch the tiny holes and touch them up.David B
Dana,
how much thinning was necessary to use that 1.5 tip?
Thanks,
Scott
about 12 or 13 % . Now everyones got me rethinking the hanging thing! I will try it both ways this weekend and see how it works. I think I am leaning towards laying them flat. It will probably add a couple days to the finishing because I don't think I would turn them over the same day, well see I guess. Thanks all and i will let you know how it works this weekend.
Dana
some advice on the thining, latex paint should be thinned with water and add the floetrol or similar product for the finish to lay out. 15 to 25 % total depending on your material. definately lay your doors and drawer fronts flat and after each coat get some air flowing above your work (not directly on your surface). as far as a clear coat a water base poly will keep your finish coat looking and lasting much longer than without especially in a kitchen. hope this helps and good luck.
Thks for sharing that even pros end up with drags/runs occasionally. I sure did find laying them flat worked better for the times when I put that extra touch down.
Brad
Brad,The only people who don't make mistakes are those who don't actually work. (You know, "experts"). We have a full-time finisher in our shop. He has the temperament necessary to spray and sand, spray and sand, every day, all year long. Doesn't happen often, but even he gets a drip or a puddle sometimes. What we try to do is create optimum conditions so that it happens as rarely as possible.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Well I had a little time today so I got back to spraying. Laying down is definetly the way to go! Its gonna take a little longer because I dont have the room to lay everything out flat at once. I can live with that. I just did the first coat of paint on about half of what I have to paint and it looked pretty good to me, I did find 2 runs on the faceframes so I'll have to deal with that. It will be interesting to see what it looks like dry in the AM. I am definetly a rookie in the finishing dept. and this has been a learning experience. When I am done painting I need to do the drawer boxes with Water based poly so I will probably try a coat or two on somescraps I have painted before I go ahead and do the whole thing. Thanks for the Advice.
Dana
Thanks for the info and update Dana. I'm getting ready to spray some cabinets I am making and will try the ProClassic with the Earlex too.
Scott
I should have mentioned that we lay cabinets on their backs to spray so that the face frames are also lying flat. The cabinet rear pieces get sprayed separately and put in place afterwards. Doing vertical surfaces is possible but requires a light touch, and the patience to lay on an additional coat because you can't get the same thickness as when they're lying down.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
What size of gun do you use normally for cab's? I found mine a bit large and it was difficult to keep it perpendicular to case when spraying. I was thinking of trying a small detail version I have for the next one. Maybe this will help the OP too.
Brad
We use 2 Sata guns, both normal size. I'm nowhere near the shop right now and I'm not sure about the model numbers and nozzles, so I won't guess. But one gun is reserved for clear lacquers, the other for tinted waterborne finishes (which we do a lot of).Doing the inside walls of cabinets is probably the trickiest thing to master. Try anything that seems like it may work until you gain an instinctive sense for how to go about each situation.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Thks for all the help. I guess more practice in order.
Brad
David,
If you were spraying a cabinet where the inside is left natural and sprayed with a clear finish and the face frame with paint, how would you do it? is there an easy way to mask off the inside and face frame or would you just leave the face frame off and finish it before attaching it?
Thanks,
Scott
I did what I saw Norm do on his kitchen project. The painters used a plastic that came in a roll that was pretaped on one edge. I bought the 4' tall stuff. I then taped the top to the inner part of the cabinet and then used the Green Frog tape to tape the other edges. It worked really well and once I got the hang of it it took under 10 minutes a cabinet. It cost about $15 bucks to do 8 cabinets and I have some left. It held up well so far with one coat of primer and one coat of paint.
I wish I had the room to lay all the cabinets down, I am working on my technique as I do tend to go a little heavy, I'm learning.
Brad mentioned the weight of the gun, I'm surprised at how tired my arm gets and how sore my back gets after a little spraying! I need to spend more time in the gym!
The key to the Earlex seems to be the viscosity of the paint. Not to thick and not to thin. So far I'm pretty happy with it. Time will tell for sure.
Thanks Dana, I'll try that too.
Scott
If you want to go high tech, the viscosity funnels for measuring the flowrate are pretty cheap. I bought some to check, but I am pretty sure I am close with how I do it now. If you look on the woodweb you can find all the tech specs for spraying latex. Them boys know how to paint (as do many here) and they arent shy about talking specs.
I wasnt asking about the gun size so much because of the weight, but I will fess up that I noticed the gun weight when the cup was full. I had a hard time keeping the gun square to the spray surface because the gun seems a bit too large for a cabinet where you have backs and sides (My gun is similar to yours).
Brad
Edited 2/27/2009 6:34 pm ET by brad805
We very often have cabinets like this - the outside is different than the inside. (Also we do a lot of kitchen cabinets that have HPL inside, natural finish outside. For these, the insides just need to be masked.) As a rule, the insides get done first. The transition line is at the glue joint between faceframes and plywood walls. We run masking tape around the inside edge of each faceframe, then spray the insides. When that's completely dry, we take that masking tape off and close off the openings. This is accomplished by running a new band of masking tape around each opening, this time exactly in back of the transition line. We then cut brown paper (we keep large rolls of it) to just under the size of the opening, put masking tape around the paper, and join it to the tape that's on the cabinet. It uses twice the amount of tape, but it's faster and a lot less frustrating than trying to accurately seal the line with one run of tape. Once all the openings are closed the cabinets lay on their backs and get the faceframes sprayed. Hinges and drawer slides are assembled only after the finishing is done.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Thanks for the explanation David.
Scott
A friend who just does painting and finishing, showed me his "trick" which is nothing more than scrap pieces of 1/2" ply with 1" brads shot thru them in a grid pattern at ~1" spacing.
I lay everything out on them with the "good" side down and shoot the first coat. When it's dry to the touch, I carefully flip the pieces and shoot the "good" sides. The waiting time between flips depends on the material you're spraying, temperature, humidity, etc, and I've had oil based products need a few hours. I've also shot lacquer on 6-8 pieces and had the first piece ready to be flipped by the time I finished spraying the last one.
I try to spray everything flat so that as the material "lays out", it isn't moving downhill.
I don't spray but the following tip my wife learned from a DIY TV show is working very well.
Use some wood scraps about 2" wide and drive nails through them. Organise matters that you can lay each panel on 4 nails. Spray the backs, turn over and spray the fronts. The nail marks are usually inperceptible.
For brush work I coat the edges after turning over so that I can handle the boards by the edges.. In your case, for spraying you may need to work out where best to grip the boards and then repair any damage.
how bout screw a hook into the backside of the drawer front, hang and spray away?
Brian
If you're careful about where you drill, you could use the same hooks that you used for the doors.
As for clear coats on top of latex....... I've not done this, so I too would be looking for advice. One of the issues that I've had with latex is that, although it dries quickly, it seems that it doesn't actually cure for almost a week.
And I'd be concerned about covering anything that is not yet cured.
Is that SW product 100% acrylic? I ended up using a latex that is not, and have figured out why that is a bad idea.
Brad
I dont know if it's 100% or not, never really gave it any thoguht. I know it says Acrylic Latex on the can. I will look tonight and see.
Apparently (maybe you knew this) acrylic and latex are not the same. A latex will not develop sufficient hardness for print resistance and a laquer finish over may not improve the situation much since cracking can occur due to the softness of the underlying layer. I understand the cost of the paint is one good indicator as to how much acrylic is in it. Expensive paint good. The pro's on the woodweb seem to prefer tinting an MB Campbell Laquer product for a perfect finish and apparently Target is working on a similar water based product.
Hopefully you wait the time suggested on the can before re-coating.
Just trying to help. I am not totally pleased with the paint hardness on my test project. I know the owners will be fine with it, but I feel I didnt quite do enough research.
Brad
Hey Brad, the SW Classic is 100% Acrylic. ( I still call acrylic paint Latex paint, old habits die hard) It says 4 hours between coats and I have waited closer to 4 days between coats. Can't get to the shop every day. I will be finishing the doors today and tomorrow and then put everything back together next week. What I have done seems pretty hard to me and I am prety happy with it. Since I am the owner of this project I will hoepfully be happy with it!
The language is confusing--in part because it is still "legitimate" to use the term laytex in the context of acyrlic waterborne finishes, even though they have no ingredients deriving from the rubber tree. The little packets of finish (even if based on acyrlic resin), that coalesce when the water in which they are emulsified evaporates, are themselves called "latexes", based on a physical similarity to the little rubber (latex) packets emulified in the rubber tree sap when rubber trees are tapped.
Did that sentence make sense? I'll read it again in a few hours after more coffee.
Great to hear that and kudos to you for being a bit more patient than me. Finishing has never been my strong point, but I sure am glad I gave the spray gun a try. Plz post a pic of the completed project.
Brad
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