I’m looking for any material to make spiral stair treads, preferably
sheet good type as to lumber, for a client with specific criteria:
– colored white, grey or black but no paint
– no discernible grain characteristics if wood
– costs less than $1000 for approx 60 sq ft
I considered Paperstone but it was exorbitantly expensive, otherwise ideal.
I suggested fuming hard maple with ammonia which turns silver but that was deemed too brownish, still.
Any ideas?
Replies
Would colored MDF meet your client's needs? One example: http://www.spectratechmdf.com/
This is exactly, maybe, what I'm looking for. The only concern I have with mdf is its wearability/hardness under foot. And, the website
suggests that it still be coated with a lacquer, urethane et cet.Do you have any data or experience on mdf as to its wear as a floor
surface?
If you can support non structural materials you could find marble or granite in black , white, or gray. Ebonized wood should not show detectable grain.
BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in South'n Murlyn'
Try bleaching some oak or maple.
The 2 part bleach works well and is relatively inexpensive.
I have heard of people using household bleach(Clorox) but have never tried it myself.
Ash would also work well, especially quartersawn.
I would stay away from mdf or plywood. Too much wear and tear will likely end up damaging the surface beyond repair.
Google wood bleach and have a look.
F.
I am going to try both bleaching and ebonizing hard maple but
definitely not oak. The grain is too prominent and open. I've
done some fuming but that was not dark enough on the maple and
still had some brownish color in the silver/grey appearance.
I assume these steps are actually for stepping upon. If so, wouldn't the ebonized layer rather quicly be scuffed off in the traffic spot for the tread?
You could use real ebony, but that would be even more $$$$$$$.
You have a very unreasonable client. If they want to keep the cost down, they need some flexibility on the look.
If you are going to full support the tread with a steel plate, for example, the options are greater, of course, as the material effectively becomes a veneer. Perhaps you could veener ebony on to mdf?
Ebonized wood would/should be sealed with a satin polyurethane because I suspect it would wear through but no more so than any other stained wood surface.
As for real ebony, besides the cost, its grain variation and color is quite varied. Still, it might have the unusual character that the client would accept. That is hard to read since as much of a stink was made about wood "grain" he said he'd consider something that was unusual like zebra wood. I think he's off base in choosing that wood for an example but he might be meaning figured wood like a fiddleback, wavy, curly, birdseye or burl. The house is very contemporary to the point of being austere in some areas. Glass top dining room table on chromed steel frame. White upholstered chairs all on a white rug. Jet black spiral stairs soon (maybe) to be brushed steel with whatever we can come up with on treads.
A jet black treatment to a closed grain hardwood or baltic birch plywood (even better so I don't have to join boards to get the tread width) is my preference. Or, a bleached hardword that's approaching a white.
One of the clients MUST HAVE was ...
- no discernible grain characteristics if wood
The only wood I have ever used with no discernible grain (I think no such wood that was a live tree shows no discernible grain ) would be old growth Spruce. I think you can still get it but VERY expensive.
I have nothing to do with them. Just a Link I found.
http://www.stair-treads.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?display=home
One thought I had was using one of the manufactured counter top materials made from quartz. I believe can be made to any color but NO EXPERT on the subject.
Then again the weight brings in another matter.. The structure to hold it all up and meet local building codes. As in the link above.. I for one would call them or something like it. I HAVE NO CONNECTION to the folks there.. Just a link I found.
I would go over to Breaktime in here.. Wonderful but it gets a bit windy at times. Somebody may shoot a nail gun at you just for fun! I think you need something other than wood to meet the clients wants.
Just me though.
Precisely, I'm looking for wood alternatives or a deep staining
technique for a specific wood. For instance, I'm going to try ebonizing hard maple. Or, someone else suggested bleaching. I'd again try hard maple because of its grain pattern. The client did concede
to seeing grain if it was unusual. But, now we're talking figured
woods which are again going to be too pricey. Quartz or any material can be engineered into the design of the
stairs structurally speaking so I'm not worried about that. Its ####custom steel spiral staircase so the treads could even have full
sheet metal support if needed.
For it to be white, gray, or black, but without paint, sounds to me like it cannot be wood.
Perhaps you should try some sort of countertop material -- Corian or the like. But be sure that you research the strength of the stuff you select -- stairtreads are only good if they actually hold the weight of a human.
Yes, the problem is that it could be wood but the client is strange about wood grain. I'm investigating alternative materials such as the Paperstone product. But, its so expensive. Its just a high pressure mdf sort of material--very strong and very hard and it comes in
several colors. Corian, Formica J2000 et cetera are definitely not
structural materials but the stair case framing could still be
designed to support it. Still, its too costly but otherwise,
essentially what I need.
Let me be sure I understand your (client's) dilemma:The client wants the price of CDX plywood, the strength of structural concrete and steel, and the look of fine cut and polished stone -- and yhou're not allowed to use paint.Tell him/her that you can make it out of cardboard, and when its built they can paste on pictures of whatever material they want.They'll get two out of their three wishes, and you might break even. On the other hand, if they balk, you should probably walk. This project is a loser, and there is likely no money to be made.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
Use a full bullnose formica counter top in the color you need. Finish will last for years. I would suggest the flat finish and not gloss. You could use the formica on the risers too.
I have seen this done years ago and its no worse than using a pergo type flooring.
I'm not going to be any help since I'm going to say that it sounds as if your customer is setting out goals that will be difficult/impossible to fulfill, or potentially reject your best efforts.
I have learned over the years that some folks want a bit too much 'custom' in their woodwork, and it is best to excuse oneself from this type of work - even if you are getting paid handsomely for every minute on the project. Your guy has already set out a budget, and I'll wager that it is without any markup for you and your professional knowledge and resources.
I had one fellow that wanted to agonize for a week over his MDF 'curb furniture' as to whether the radius edge should be 1/8" or 3/16". Also, the blacks weren't black enough, nor the whites white enough ('Can't you make paint?' was one remark). After a week, with no answer on the radius, and things backing up in my small shop, I threw him and his stuff out the door and never felt better. Looking back, I realized I saw all the warning signs, but indulged him and his wacky whims. I was at fault for letting things get to that point.
Don't get me wrong, I love a challenge, and regularly bite off large bits that get the brain, blood and body working hard. Experience teaches us where to draw that line, and it is different for everybody. But the guy I threw out was my best customer before I threw him out, and I look back now over 20 years, and he was one of the worst. It's all relative.
Dave S
http://www.acornwoodworks.com
I hear you 100% philosophically speaking. I've been there and am
there. The decision was made to cut the relationship because of
this and a history of other issues with the project. That being said, I still think there is an answer material-wise that would be a suitable. I'm still interested in that pursuit, now from
an academic perspective. I'm going to experiment with ebonizing,
bleaching and this colored mdf. I've just completed an Arts & Crafts
chair that I fumed and found that technigue intriguing and effective.The original job also had my attention since I was attempting to
strike up a relationship with the chief contractor--the iron
fabricator doing the spiral stairs. This individual is a rising star in the Pittsburgh community of which I think I could offer some
complimentary services and expertise.
You certainly seem to be aware of the relationship and its potential good and bad. I can't judge you from a distance. I definitely see the value of going beyond the norm to snare a larger slice. And finding good technical solutions to material/design problems is still an enjoyable exercise for me. For a further discussion, I have found that often when I went over the top to endear myself to a customer, or learn/experiment with new methods, it set a precedent for any future work with the same customer. That is, I was doomed to the same level of over-performance (well out of a profitable range) for any more work. Then when these people had good, solid, bread and butter work, they went elsewhere, since I was only good for the 'weird stuff' - read 'low budget and difficult.'I was a one man shop at the time, and found that small moves on my part went much further than I ever realized to define me and the perception of my work in the customer community. Once I learned to develop my niche and work it, life became much sweeter. Dave S
Dave,
Your second paragraph sounds like you had insight into another situation/client
that I've spent much...too much time with. Yes, its over-performance, under-paid and sets a precedent. However, he does come to me for all of his work, not just the "weird stuff" which makes me wonder about your own clients that went elsewhere for the bread-and-butter. Nevertheless, I was trying to understand what you meant by taking small steps in the last paragraph, that lead to defining you and your work in the customer community.
I am in a quandry as to how to grow my business and in what direction. I know where I'd like to be but I don't know how to get there. I have the skill, the examples and customer references but not nearly the business or the labor force to cut the cord of my contracting/remodeling business. I think you're giving me some advice that I can't entirely decipher.
Carl Stevens/stevens-woodworks.com
"That being said, I still think there is an answer material-wise that would be a suitable."There are lots of potential answers, some of which have been suggested to you and by you. The problem you faced was being put into the position of dinking around looking for all the possibilities without having any control of the outcome. Specifically what you lacked (past tense, now that you've backed out of the project) is the owners brain. Only he/she seemed willing to let go of the final criteria for making the material selection. In other words, what I'm saying is you were given a lot of responsibility and no authority. This is an OK position to be in if one is billing by the hour, but when the reward is given only when the "correct" answer is given, it's hell on earth. The only way to satisfaction given the present situation is to place yourself into the role of decision maker..... be the homeowner/architect. Then, in this academic exercise, you have control: you know all the parameters/criteria, you know the budget and how it might be fudged, and most important, it's your aesthetic making the final selection.
Actually, the client was also mislead by first an interior designer in whom he had too much faith until that individual's faults were uncovered. Then along came a supplier of "green bldg. materials" and she mislead the client into thinking Paperstone (tm) was an inexpensive solution--another fallacy. And finally, the stair fab. people were caught in a ringer having promised the client a complete job for $XXXX dollarsa and they couldn't arrive at a tread solution within the budget. The client's own lack of cooperation in design criteria compounded the materials issue. I did not directly meet the client personally until is was too late to salvage. He gave me 2 weeks to come back with some ideas but by then the stair people made the decision to cut their losses. I think that was a wise decision considering the final issue was still ultimatelly satisfying the client's criteria and tastes.
'nuff said about that!
I think you were wise to sever your association with this customer. His requests were fine, but his pocketbook didn't seem to back them up.
I believe you are on to a possible perfect match with the paperstone. It is available in a dark black, is thick enough to be structural for stairs, and cuts and mills quite easily. A customer of mine used it as a bartop for a bar I built last year, and he had it buffed with polish (I believe??). It looked fantastic. I was quite impressed with how it turned out. It looked like a perfectly polished pair of black shoes, if you know what I mean. Jet black!!
Good luck,
Jeff
Dave
I enjoyed reading of your experiences, especially since they have mirrored mine. I have had a saying that I use in this case, oh, going on about 20 years now.
Losing customers like that is alot like losing cancer. You rarely miss them.
Happy Holidays,
Jeff
Ask Stan Foster over in Breaktime, he is a Spiral Stair Guru
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