Sorry, but yes, another wich saw questio
JDBraddy
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Woops! I accidently hit edit instead of reply, and now I can’t undo the edit, so this post got lost.
Edited 11/1/2009 8:09 am ET by JDBraddy
Edited 11/1/2009 8:12 am ET by JDBraddy
Replies
>220 powersourse <
Important if looking at anything but smaller saw.
> first stationary tools<
I bought a table saw first as well. If I did it over again I would get one of these.
http://www.lagunatools.com/bandsaw-lt14se
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=44418.15
Can do more with it if you are looking at sophisticated woodworking because the thicknesses of your parts ( see resawing ) can be easily cut without wasting a lot of wood in a power planer.
Can cut very thick parts also and thick curves. Very handy.
For sheet goods which I don't use often
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=43489.16
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 10/25/2009 12:40 pm by roc
Hmmm, My dryer, my electric stove, and my hot water heater are all 220v so I don't think it would be that hard to get an electrician to run 220v into the garage for a saw. However, WOW! Some of the answers above, were not what I was expecting at all. I may have to rethink this whole deal. I will after all be working out of an already crowded garage, and a full size tablesaw with side and outfeed table would easily take up 2/3 of the available workspace. I don't really know how much sheet goods I'll be cutting up, but doubt as a hobbyist working out of my garage, I'll ever really have call to cut all that many.
I might consider upgrading my Circular saw first, I'm too old and lazy to rip a sheet of plywood with a hand saw, and the circular saw I'm using, I inherited from my Grandfather, it's a 6.5" Craftsman wich according to the receipt in the box, was purchased in March of 1952, and the blade does wabble a little. Then perphapse I could try the sacrificial table and saw guides described in the article, then re-assess if and how much tablesaw I might want. I did finally break down and replace my similar vintage corded hand drill with a cordless drill this past weekend. I chose the Rigid 18v Auto-shift model with 1/2" keyless chuck, LED light, and 2 lithium-ion batteries, I also bought a set of carbide fostner bits as well, and so far I love it. Perhapse I should replace my Router too. The 1980's vintage Black&Decker I inherited from my late father-in-law only takes 1/4" bits, and is a little under powered sometimes. I did replace the stamped sheet metal bits that came with it, after one broke off and imbedded the broken piece in my work, with a set of Ryobi carbide tipped bits, and have to admit they've made a huge improvement in the quality of the cuts it produces. I do eventually want a drill press and a bandsaw, though I've never had the opportunity to use either. Planer, Jointer, Shaper, Lathe, etc... I've never used any of these, or even seen one used, and am not sure I'd even know how to.
I'm kinda the odd man out in this topic. Although I'm firmly in the "best tool you can afford" camp, lately I've found myself leaning more towards the "don't buy more tool than you need".
I bought a floor model Sears contractor's saw years ago to build my first set of kitchen cabinets. (Before that, I used a radial arm saw I'd purchased 35 years ago and a nice assortment of hand tools.) I think I paid $700 for it. The fence needs to be bumped to parallel about every third use and some would say it's woefully underpowered. It cuts 2" oak pretty slowly, but it cuts it. BUT, as essentially a hobbiest, it's all I really need. In fact, the low power is actually a benefit -- I really don't have to worry about kickbacks too much -- the saw blade simply stalls if things start to pinch. With the addition of good Forrest blades, I've made some pretty nice stuff with that saw, and I don't think I really could have done any better with a higher-priced unit. I think I'll keep it for a while yet.
There's some mighty fine furniture out there that was made with tools that most today would turn their noses up at. I think that with the easy availability of wonderful tools these days, folks tend to try to buy skill. But IME, that only goes so far.
I suggest that, given your limited space and budget, you get a nice saw on wheels, and learn to use it well to compliment a good selection of hand tools. If it wuz me, and it ain't, I'd seriously consider bumping my budget a bit to fit a SawStop contractor's saw. If you don't want to go that high, maybe consider a Craftsman "Zip Code" saw, or the Griz. (But a granite top on a table saw strikes me as overkill incarnate.)
Bottom line, don't buy a Lamborghini for your daily commute from the suburbs. Buy a good quality car that is suited for the use you intend.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Just keep in mind a hybrid will not be much different from a cabinet saw space wise and IMO the optimal choice. However, if space is a real consideration you could consider the fesstool mft3 and the festool ts55 track saw. If space were critical that would be my choice. Check out the festool forum at http://www.festoolownersgroup.com/ and ask some questions. One guy even came up with a jig to durn the mft into a dang nice TS. Anyway just an option.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_N3wOjWqa0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMmfUaJE-sk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPqv3dunynII was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
>circular saw receipt in the box, was purchased in March of 1952<Wow provenance ! Maybe it is worth something to a collector.>stamped sheet metal bit . . . one broke off and imbedded the broken piece in my work<Oh my gosh that sounds dangerous even a cheep old router turns pretty darn fast. I am glad it didn't imbed the broken piece of the bit in your leg or some where like that.>Planer, Jointer, Shaper, Lathe, etc... I've never used any of these, or even seen one used, and am not sure I'd even know how to.<Sounds like you would be the ideal student to take a basic woodworking class at a community college or like that. Then you could check out all the cool stuff before you buy.
Given 'em heckrocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
>circular saw receipt in the box, was purchased in March of 1952<
Wow provenance ! Maybe it is worth something to a collector.
>>I doubt it, it's pretty well used, and having been my grandfathers, I wouldn't part with it anyway!
>stamped sheet metal bit . . . one broke off and imbedded the broken piece in my work<
Oh my gosh that sounds dangerous even a cheep old router turns pretty darn fast. I am glad it didn't imbed the broken piece of the bit in your leg or some where like that.
>>My point exactly, I got lucky!
>Planer, Jointer, Shaper, Lathe, etc... I've never used any of these, or even seen one used, and am not sure I'd even know how to.<
Sounds like you would be the ideal student to take a basic woodworking class at a community college or like that. Then you could check out all the cool stuff before you buy.Given 'em heck
roc
>> I'd love to if I can find one, and my work schedule will accomodate it. JDBraddy
Fifteen hundred dollars for a homeowner's table saw seems like quite a bit of change; it wasn't all that long ago that one could buy a Unisaw for little more than that. On second thought though, I guess it has been awhile - time flies. :-) I suppose you probably have your "heart" set on purchasing a saw that is brand new, but if you were to consider a used one, you could buy a helluva lot of saw for that kind of money. And if you were to ever sell it, you would be more likely to get your money out of it. It's something to think about.
I don't know how you would run a true 3 horsepower motor without 220 voltage; they must be talking about "developed" or peak horsepower. If all I had was a 110-120 volt circuit, I'd buy something with a motor that draws a full load current of 12 to 16 amps at that voltage. That's an honest one to one and a half horsepower, depending on what capacitors it uses. Of course, it will be capable of more than that for very short periods - like when hitting a knot or something. If you plan to use carbide-tipped blades, you may find you need more power for cutting hardwoods more than an inch or so thick.
Something else: I may just be prejudiced, but I would look for a saw with a belt-drive motor. Direct-drive motors usually have gears and they've been known to strip them; in that case one has to buy a replacement from the saw manufacturer and it is likely to be expensive. A belt-drive motor can be bought new lots of places, at a reasonable price, and you can even find used ones that will work. Also, should you ever want to upgrade to more power, it is a much easier proposition with a belted motor.
I'm with OldSaw on the power thing -- I'd not try to run a 3HP motor on a 120V circuit. Is there any way you can get the 220V installed? You can get a Grizzly G0690 220V cabinet saw with a riving knife, free shipping, $1250. That leaves $250 for electrical work, no need to get a B.O.R.K.
If you're completely stuck with 120V, the first thing you need to look at is what amperage your best circuit will handle, and determine how much motor you can get that the circuit will handle (you need to leave a percentage leeway for start-up draw, I'm not sure how much, but at least 10%, I'd think). Then bring in the other factors (riving knife, cabinet mounted trunnions on a hybrid, whatever else).
PS: belt-drive is a no-brainer, you'd be throwing away your money otherwise.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 10/25/2009 7:52 pm by forestgirl
The percentage for safety is 20%. In other words, you should plug in no more than a 16 amp machine in a 20 amp circuit. This gives you a little play for inaccuracy of the breaker itself or the actual current the machine is drawing.
The starting current can actually exceed the rated amount by 100% and more and most breakers have a slow blow feature to account for this overage. The current carrying wires are not going to overheat to the point of causing damage in the time an average motor would take while starting. A twenty ampere motor could take forty amps or more for a moment while the motor gets up to running speed. Some more knowledgeable poster may correct me.
Edited 10/27/2009 12:34 am ET by Tinkerer3
>you need to leave a percentage leeway for start-up draw, I'm not sure how much, but at least 10%, I'd thinkReally? Are you sure? Would you like to phone a friend or quote a web site? ;)
$1500 for an occasional use tablesaw would be like buying a backhoe to to plant tulip bulbs around the house. I have a Uni-saw and a $90 "throwaway" saw, which is basically a circle saw mounted on a stand, and I use it for 3/4 of the saw work I do.
A saw like this is like what I have,
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921828000P?keyword=table+saw
This one would do the job for you and let you keep most of your money:
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00922114000P?keyword=table+saw
Most brands have similar models, I'm not recommending Craftsman tools necessarily. (in case the government is reading this.)
Unless your elec box is full, take some of that 1500 pay an electrician and get 220. Then go get a grizzly cabinet saw. You won't regret it. They are running 25 percent off on some of their TS's. I have the 1023slx for over 5 years now heck of a saw.
http://www.grizzly.com/
the have the 1023sl for 795!
I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.
George Burns
This is a tough one. I used a Craftsman contractors type table saw for many many years with fine results. At the time, there were Sears surplus stores around where you could buy incomplete tools for cheap. I got the basic cast iron saw, then added extensions and a 1.5hp belt drive motor and made my own stand. It worked fine except on wood over 1-1/4" thick. I ultimately cut off a finger in that saw. Given that, I'd conclude that 1.75hp would be enough for most tasks, SawStop quality is good from what I've seen and if I'd had one way back when, I'd still be sporting 10 fingers.
Just to muddy the waters a bit, I've since replaced that Craftsman saw with a 3hp Unisaw and the extra power makes all the difference. That said, I'd guess that if you can even find a 3hp motor that runs on 110v, it would draw upward of 30 amps, requiring a circuit with #10 wire, something that's likely to cost more than running a new 220 circuit.
I don't know what the Saw Stop Contrractors saw costs, but I'd bet if well cared for, you can sell it for close to what you paid when the time comes to trade up.
JD,
I know there are a lot of people here who advocate old, previously owned equipment. The idea is that they have more metal in them, built better, etc...
While earlier technology really is great in some ways, that doesn't change the fact that it is old technology and in fact, saws have just gotten better. How better? Safety features!
Here's the deal, I worked for nearly 30 years with crummy low power table saws with no proper guards or safety features. And when I finally got a nice saw with a riving knife and functional guard, I couldn't believe how I could ever approach a saw with such reckless abandon.
Now that it is for the most part universally accepted, I wouldn't get a saw without a riving knife and a good guard. I own a laguna that has both and a similar saw is now being made for Grizzly (for a little less money). If however, the total cost of that kind of saw is too much, I would go and try to test drive the Bosch portable. I worked on one for 3 years and it truly was a very nice saw. It has been updated to include a riving knife and a nice guard and their fence system is the best of the portables. Actually, it so good it really doesn't deserve to be called a portable.
For weekend projects and the occasional furniture, I think I would look seriously at the Bosch. It is well south of $1500 and this would leave you $$ for a full compliment of tools also needed (a really nice router combo set). Really, I built a lot of great stuff (including an entire house) on crummy old saws. The Bosch could easily blow them all away (my old crummy ones).
Rob Kress
The Bosch is the one site-saw I really covet. I took a look at one for a friend who wants a saw at her stables for repair projects that don't need a construction crew. The blade guard and riving knife are outstanding in their design. Would that all the contractor saws would have such features!
What would bother me long-term, though, is the direct drive. That goes belly-up 5 years down the road, aren't you pretty sunk? How much of a dado stack will it take?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,Good point about the direct drive. And in fact, the one that I worked on did have a failure of the soft start circuit. It was expensive to fix but not so much that it was prohibitive. To put it in context though, this was a saw used by a carpenter contractor. So it got used almost everyday for serious work.Dado blade is another consideration that could be problematic. I don't know what that saw can take but I don't think I would even attempt it (unless taking very light cuts). The thing is, I'm not a dado blade kind of craftsman. Everyone has their methods and techniques and in my work, I prefer a router to do dado blade type jobs. So I didn't even consider that when recommending the Bosch saw. Basically because I never use my really nice dado blade set (even on my super duper saw). Rob Kress
I will agree with Rob's suggestion to get the little Bosch. I have had one for about six years now and it has done everything I have asked of it including light cuts with a dado stack up to about 3/4" wide. Get a sharp thin kerf blade and it will rip 1.5" oak as long as you are careful about the feed rate.I also have to agree with the other post (sorry I forgot who suggested it) that a nice band saw (I recently got the Laguna LT14se) is a viable substitute. And I bet you will be happier with the expensive band saw and the inexpensive Bosch table saw than the other way around. The Laguna does require 220v though.Chris
I was looking at this one, thinking it has a nice compromise of features for the price.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-2-HP-Contractor-Style-Table-Saw-with-Riving-Knife/G0661
but at 342lbs, and 36" rip capacity, I don't know if it would be any more portable or take up any less space in my garage than the full sized 220v cabinet saw, if so, would I still be better off with the more portable Makita given my space limitations and intended use, or just not compromising at all, and getting the full sized 220v cabinet saw.
I'm so confused!!!
That Grizzly contractor's saw looks nice and the company certainly has some fans here on Knots. But I suspect you are correct that it is not significantly smaller than a full sized cabinet saw in terms of the shop floor space it takes up. For me both cost and space are an issue and, for my needs, the Bosch has been perfect. I am sure it is not as easy to get dead-on accurate cuts as it would be if I had a bigger, better saw but I can shove it aside or hang it on the wall when it is not needed and I was able to save up and buy a good band saw (which is also small and on wheels.) With thoughtful use the Bosch is likely to be able to handle everything you need it to do. The same may be true with some of the other smaller table top saws out there, I only have experience with the Bosch.Chris
The Ridgid granite top saw is 499. Given your specs this saw will do it all for you. And, with the change you can get an electrician to run 220 and buy a bandsaw.
I have built everything I have done in the last 8 years with the Dewalt hybrid saw. 1.75 horses. 120 volt. 2 cast iron extension tables. Sits on the floor and doesn't move and is integrated into a large 7' X 8' work table. I have worked with veneer plywood, including cabinets for 2 kitchens. Hardwoods up to 2" thick, maple, bubinga, walnut, oak. And have never had a problem with any cutting. I recently replaced 2 blades, decent ones 80 tooth and 24 tooth. I also have 30, 40 and 60 tooth blades but I find that I use the 24 and 80 the most.
From what you describe you want to do, and that's how I started wood working about 25 years ago, I would suggest a hybrid saw. Dewalt, Craftsman, Jet, etc all make them.
Yes, I will get a big boys cabinet saw as soon as my son-in-law and daughter buy a house with a basement, but for now that Dewalt has be more than perfect.
ASK
Edited 10/26/2009 8:35 am ET by ASK
JD :
I agree with Roc on this, with the money your thinking of spending you could buy that Ridgid saw for about $500 and use the rest to buy yourself a nice 14" bandsaw with riser and mobile base.
Mike
I just picked up my first cabinet saw, a Steel City 35905 and have been impressed with it so far. It's got lots of power, good fit and finish and came with a nice fence. It is 220V but for the $1200 it costs, you'd have plenty left for an electrician.
It does sound like you might be better off saving some money and going with a hybrid. Some even come with integrated mobile bases.
The Grizzly looks pretty good. It got everything a cabinet saw should have. Perhaps the last table saw one'd ever need.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Riving-Knife/G0690
Q
Based on your intended usage, I would suggest you get the fanciest model for your budget and don't forget the add-ons. You may need replacement fence or mitre guage, for example. Resist the temptation of the big spenders (they're all around us) to talk you into more saw than you need. A decent contractor's saw with fixins, blades, etc, will already be that much and 350+ pounds.
While I would like to upgrade my 1.5hp to 2hp eventually, I also like to work with ash, maple, and some exotics. If you really think you'll be doing more with your saw within five years, then get a more powerful saw. (But five years goes by awful fast.)
Remember, you will only be able to run the saw on that circuit. Any lighting and dust collection needs to be on another circuit (not just another outlet). Ignore the chatter about startup current. It is five times steady state current but you are fine by sizing the standard breaker (and wiring) for 20 to 25% over the rated motor current. That's probably about 15 or 16A for 1.75hp, so that means a 20A circuit (no extension cords).
Andy
I had an interesting talk today with a Freud salesman, they where at a Woodcraft store with their trailer, giving a demonstration. I noted that in the trailer, they had a JET cabinet saw set up in the back, and three Bosch job site saws set up on one side of the trailer. He was telling me, each of the above saws had traveled over a hundred thousand miles and been used by thousands of people since the trailer was set up. The Jet was seldom used, and the one most frequently requiring re-adjustment and maintenance. He said the Bosch saws where next to as indestructable and idiot-proof as any he'd seen or used, and with a thin Kurf blade, plenty powerfull enough to do any prodject they've demonstrated.
He also pointed out that with the $1.500 I had budgeted for a table saw, I cold get the Bosch at Lowe's for $600, The Rikon 14" Deluxe Bandsaw on sale for $700, and a Delta 17" Drill press for $300. He even told me he was negotiating a limited offer that might be availabe to start in December, offering the Freud router and router table as a package for around $400. Since I've already built a workbench, I could add a few jigs and dust colletion, and have a very nicely equipped garage woodshop with all new equipment for around $2000. I'm really liking that option. Opinions?
Edited 11/1/2009 8:19 am ET by JDBraddy
Edited 11/1/2009 8:26 am ET by JDBraddy
That's how I buy tools. You purchase the tools that (from a best research effort) you can determine will do the job and get a full stable. Most woodworking projects seem to be much easier to finish with a full complement of tools rather than a couple expensive overkill machines while you wait for the funds to finish equiping the shop.Even with smaller projects, I seem to be able to make use of jointer, planer, TS, SCMS, BS, DP, router, and sometimes scrollsaw and sander. How would I get by with less equipment if I had spent all my money on half as many tools? (Hand tools being another topic.)The only thing I would change in your lineup is to get a Veritas router table and Bosch router. ;)Andy
JD:
It seems that you have your tool purchases figured out, that's good. One thing I would like to add is if your shopping for a router that is going to be basically your only router in the shop I would suggest looking at the combo kits that are out there, you will end up with three bases, you can leave one in the router table, have one for free handing and a plunge base for joinery. I think almost all the manufacturers sell these combo kits now, these usually run from 1-3/4hp to 2-1/4hp which will be plenty of power for a hobbyist, I know some will say you need 3-1/2hp in a router table I agree if your making raised panels alot of the time, I have made raised panels with my 2-1/4hp with no problem just takes a few more passes and maybe a little slower feed rate but as a hobbyist my time is free so its not a race for me. By the way I think I have the same old Black & Decker router you said you have, nice and light still use it for free handing with small roundover bits. You have a great day and enjoy the new tools.
Mike
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