Soon to be Turner Asks what Tools?
As my next tool purchase will be a Lathe, I thought I would throw out a question to you experienced turners…
My question is this…do I buy a set of lathe tools, or build a set as I go? In the past, I have recommended that those looking for better chisels buy one or two in the size they need most, and fill in as they need. That said, do you find it important to have all the same or similar handles, or does it not bother you to have a mixed bag or handle shapes and sizes? Lathe tools strike me as something that are switched around multiple times during the same project (like carving tools) so I could see if different handled tools were a little bothersome. Not have turned much at all, I don’t really know the answer. Are there two or three “must haves” to be augmented as I start to specialize? I plan turn everything from bowls to chess pieces. I don’t want to buy a set, and then find that I never used some of the tools. I thought about starting out with a bowl gouge, a skew chisel and a parting tool, or similar.
Thanks,
Joe
Edited 1/2/2008 8:00 pm ET by ThreePuttJoe
Replies
Joe, just to get some experience, get the Craftsman high speed steel set. It is decent quality starter set that will not break the bank. After you get some hours at the lathe you will get a better feel for what you really need.
Also, it would ge bood to join one of the local chapters of the AAW:
http://www.woodturner.org/community/chapters/members.pl?submit=Chapter+List#IL
The local chapters are a great way to gain some valuable advice free before you invest in a tool or lathe for that matter. The turners groups are great for giving hands on sessions for beginners.
Steve Pippins
Joe, check out the Penn State website. They sell a brand called Benjamins Best, very inexpensive.I have found this brand is as good as most more expensive tools.
They hold an edge very well, the steel seems as good as my other lathe tools.
mike
Joe, turning is great, where else can you do an entire project start to finish on one tool and so fast. I have been turning for twenty years and my advice it to buy the very best 1” skew, ½” spindle gouge and ½” bowl gouge you can afford. Then buy the rest as needed. I also buy them unhandled, turning your own handles is part of the fun all of mine are different and it has never been a problem for me. Also, learn to freehand grind all of your chisels, this will go a long way to increasing your enjoyment at the lathe. Depending on the wood, I may have to sharpen every 3-5 min. of turning. Taking the time to set up a jig will kill the fun. Also, you DO NOT need to hone a turning tool, mine go from a 60 grit wheel straight to the wood. I recommend any of Richard Raffen’s books or videos as a great way to learn.
Chuck up some fire wood and make shavings, lots of them. Remember, ALWAYS RUB THE BEVEL!!!
Best of luck, once you start turning you’ll be hooked
Thanks for all of the advice Pip, Mike and Napie,I think I will quickly become hooked. One question, Napie. How can I turn handles for tools when I don't have any tools with which to turn handles? :)Actually being able to turn my own handles for all kinds of tools is something I really look forward to.Joe
I should have clarified that the first three will have to have factory handles…
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Also, look at a couple scrapers as the second acquisition in the non ending tool buying process.
Joe,
I turn many bowls and the only tool I use from start to finish is a bowl gouge. I have a midi-lathe which limits the size of bowl I turn to 10". I own a 3/8" bowl gouge (which I keep sharpened with the "regular" profile. aka wings not swept back). You may wish to invest in a scraper. I would then recommend a radiused scraper (not to be confused with a round scraper).
If you plan to turn spindles, that is pieces between the headstock and tailstock, I'd recommend at least a 3/4" roughing gouge, 3/8" spindle gouge, diamond parting tool, and an oval skew to start. You can always purchase additional tools later as you see the need.
My must haves are a 3/8" bowl gouge, a diamond parting tool, and a 3/8" spindle gouge.
As for handles, the most important thing is that your tools are easily distinguished from one another and that they feel comfortable in your hand. I don't see any need for the weight of aluminum interchangable handles will ballast - wooden handles work fine.
I will also heavily stress the importance of wearing a FULL FACE SHIELD whenever you are using the lathe. Everything from sawdust to shavings and exploding bowls can come your way (though hopefully not the last!).
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
For turning between centers, I like Sorby Spindlemaster gouges (in a couple of sizes). They work well and you don't need a grinder to hone them - you just touch up the flats on your stone or sandpaper on glass set-up.
If you keep your skews touched up with a stone, you'd never need to grind them either.
Edited 1/3/2008 7:01 am ET by UrbaneLegend
I'll have to part company with one posters comments about the bowl gouge. DO the side grind on the bowl gouge, that square end and those pointy ears are a catch waiting to happen. Also with the side grind you can do the finest of shear scraping with the cutting edge rolled down and get what's called "angel hair" that looks like 0000 steel wool fibers.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Agreed, I only side grind my bowl gouges, far more versatile.
My first try on a bowl gouge, Eons ago, I tried the factory grind. That changed after about 2 minutes. Talk about dangerous tools.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I saw an "Ellsworth" bowl gouge that seems to have the sides swept back. Is this something you would suggest grinding into a bowl gouge, or do others make this type of grind? Or, is this a good gouge to get?
That "ellisworth" grind is exactly what I'am talking about. It makes the gouge much more versatile. I have two 1/2" bowl gouges that are ground that way but one has a rather blunt < on the nose for going deep and the other has a shallower < for bowls that are not so deep. I did that grind so the handles don't get in the way on the back side of the bowl. That type of grind is done by others than Crown.
You'll find us turners very opinionated in that what works for one may not work for the other. Some can't ride the bevel so they scrape and sand, some ride the bevel so so and sand a little, some ride the bevel perfectly and don't have to sand at all.
Riding the bevel is 3D work and takes practice and a little reading. Study Mike Darlow, Richard Raffin and Ernie Conovers books.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Edited 1/4/2008 9:29 am ET by BruceS
Hi Bruce,
I'm new to turning also, actually have yet to turn anything. I've got a small old lathe and some Craftsman turning chisels. Will be going to a meeting with a local turning club for my indoctrination this month.
Can you provide more details regards riding the bevel? It seems from your post that you feel learning this technique is key to success. I could have read that wrong.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob, I'll take a pass at this.To ride a bevel, place your tool against the workpiece angled so it's bevel up (away from workpiece) and turn it down into the work until it's just cutting.You want the work to ride on the bevel of your tool with the edge just barely touching. Gives a very smooth, light cut.Hope that makes some sense.Leon
Bob:
"Riding the bevel", as I understand it, refers to making contact with the spinning wood on the bevel, i.e. flat, i.e. non-cutting surface of the tool, then rotating the tool so that the cutting edge is presented to the wood very gently (well, as gently as possible considering the wood is spinning pretty darned fast) so that a smooth, slicing cut is achieved and all those lovely shavings spiral off into the air and all over the floor, eventually burying your feet. Great fun turing perfectly good wood into compost.
In practice, alot of different factors will affect your ability to ride the bevel successfully, including the type of wood you are turning, your sharpening skills, etc. I sometimes find it easier on very hard wood with knarly grain to use a scraper, a technique which works just like it sounds. Hold a piece of metal against the spinning wood and scrape it off.
Be careful. This stuff is addicting.
Dennis
Dennis,
I'm trying to conceptualize this as I haven't put tool to wood yet. I'm thinking of a long square blank spinning and trying to land the tool on the ridges and then turning the tool to present the cutting edge to the wood. It makes sense during this process that the sharpness of the tool will affect the likelyhood of a catch happening.
Would it be safe to assume that as the blank gets closer to being roundish that catches are less likely to happen? I don't mean to diminish the need/value for sharpeness here.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 1/4/2008 12:03 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob:
Those corners get rounded off pretty quickly with a roughing gouge, which is a big, meaty tool with a small bevel. The principle is the same, although the bevel probably doesn't actually "rub" until the corners are rounded off. Present the tool to the wood with the tool angled up and drop it (gently into the wood). After it is roughly round, you can switch to other tools which yield a smoother finish.
I, too, had some trepidation before I put tool to wood, so took a basic turning class at Woodcraft. If nothinbg else, it is reassuring to see someone else stick a large piece of metal into a spinning hunk of wood without causing an explosion. The rest is just practice and experimentation. As others have suggested, the AAW may be the way to go, although I have not yet joined my local chapter. Good luck
Dennis
Dennis,
I most likely won't join AAW either as the nearest chapter is nearly 100 miles from me. I live in the boonies. I appreciate you taking the time to explain these aspects. Any tidbits are welcome to this neophyte.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
No problem. As I'm sure you've discovered, there are all kinds of resources on the net for gathering information on this stuff. One site I like is:
http://turnwood.net/projects_techniques.html
They have a video collection that is very helpful. Larry Marley has posted some very good videos. There's also a message board and the forum members are very helpfull.
Dennis
Bob -Is this great stuff, or what? Thanks to all for your advice. For all the griping I do about the magazine, this site is invaluable.
Joe,
I fills the gap for me. Hey with any luck we'll see more.
Knots is great as it is almost as good as being there talking with the person. I'd like to go to that first turners meeting with at least some knowledge. At least that way I'll understand what they're talking about.
Folks in here are the best!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 1/4/2008 1:41 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
As to roughing down odd stock, (I split out a lot of cherry, maple, birch, etc. into sort of turning squares for rolling pins, and other center work), I use a large radius edged skew long point down, much faster than a roughing gouge and really impresses the bystanders!
Sharpness is always relavent! The sharper the tool the less catches you will have, even if you are using the correct technique. A tool that is dull has to be pushed harder into the stock to get it to cut, and when it does cut... that is where the catch is likely to happen. Richard Raffan's books and videos are jewels in showing technique, just don't try his speed until you are really good. He is a wonder!
When the tool approaches the work and you are trying to rub the bevel, approach the wood very high, where the cutting edge does not contact the stock or cut, and then lower the tool point by pulling it down and towards you. When you first touch the wood with the bottom of the roughing gouge, or spindle or bowl gouge, you will get a tap-tap-tap sound from the out of round stock bumping the blank. As you pull the tool down and back the tip will start to cut and you want to make those first few exploratory cuts light. Always start away from the ends and work in both directions to the ends. Do not start at the end and work into the stock. The ends may chip or the tool catch. I have had catches hard enough when I started turning to put a dent into the tool rest on my Powermatic lathe!!
Roughing the outside dimension can be made with the roughing gouge, and then switch to whatever tool will make the feature you want to cut. There are multiple ways to make any cut in woodturning, just as there are more than one way to make a cut in flat work.
If you access to Raffan's videos he is a big help. Some library's have these available even.
Good luck, and don't worry about a catch. It is all a part of learning to turn wood and we all get them.
Thank you for that detailed explanation. The local library is in the process of tracking down Raffans books/videos and others.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Imagine holding the back of an ordinary teaspoon against a wooden cylinder rotating in the lathe. The convex back is just riding on the surface. Now, with the spoon still riding on the surface of the rotating cyliner, you lift the tail end of the spoon. When you do that, the spot on the back of the spoon that's touching the cylinder moves towards the tip. Eventually, you've tilted the spoon far enough that the point of contact with the cylinder is right at the tip of the spoon. Now, if the spoon were sharpened, that would be the point at which it would begin cutting, right? That's the sweet spot.
If you go much past that point, that's when a catch can occur. A catch is basically the result of positive feedback: You tilt the tool into the work too far, and the cutting edge digs into the work instead of just cutting (like tearout with a plane). The grab then causes the tool to tilt even further (against the force of your hands), which causes it to grab even harder, which causes it to tilt even further.... In a fraction of a second, you've experienced a catch, and your nicely turned piece has a ragged chunk taken out of it (unless it has completely come off the lathe, exploded, etc.).
A gouge that's sharpened straight across is more "catch prone" because no matter how you're cutting, the geometry at one corner or the other is likely to correspond to the bad situation described above, and if your attention wavers and you let that corner touch the wood, Bam! The shape of fingernail gouges makes it less likely to get into that geometry, so you're less likely to catch. But any cutting tool with a low angled bevel (i.e., anything that isn't a pure scraper) can catch the wood if you try hard enough.
-Steve
Steve,
Great description of how to rub or ride the bevel! I get the feeling that you've described this technique many times. By the way, you can have a scraper catch, but only if it is used improperly. That is scraping with the tool angled upwards from the toolrest towards the work.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Thanks. I've thought about the problem a lot, but that's actually the first time I've put pen to paper, so to speak.
-Steve
Steve,
Jeeesh, you know, even for a newb I think I actually understood that! Great description. Now to clarify it for me: You ride the bevel to start the cut? Once you start cutting you are no longer riding the bevel?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
When cutting, you're balanced right at the edge of cutting/not cutting. If the tip of the tool rides a little higher, you're rubbing behind the tip and you don't get any cutting. If the tip rides a little lower, you cut too deeply and your back hand won't be able to overpower the tendency of the tool to be pushed into the work.
Exactly how far you can safely go past the balance point and into the "cutting zone" depends on the wood, how hard it is, whether it's green or dry, etc. That's the part that takes practice and experience. I've actually done very little lathe work, and I'm still very much in the "tentative" stage. I have to relearn the whole process every time I step up to the machine.
-Steve
Steve,
Thanks man. This Saturday I'm off to my first session with a turners club so I hope to get more. As is often the case, you need to experience it to understand it.
At least this old fart has to do it that way most of the time. Kinda like riding a bike, you won't know until you get on and ride.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Sorry for the delay, worked today and just got home from being skunked at a turkey shoot, no turkey,ham or bacon ;-(
Anyway others have explained riding the bevel as well as I could. Just be mindful that you only want to raise the butt end of the handle very lightly once you know you are on the bevel. That bevel is what's supporting the chisel and preventing it from taking a dive into the stock. If there is less support under and you are taking too much of a cut, that over cutting is going to push the nose of the chisel into the stock ( a Catch) The laws of physics do work ;-)Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I’m hijacking here but yes Bob, riding the bevel is the key to complete harmony with the universe. Describing it is a bit difficult, but it is when the bevel of the tool, (be it skew or gouge), is rubbing the wood with the edge cutting. You will feel it and when it happens you’ll understand it. I guess I’d say it is a lot like riding a bike; it is tough to explain the balance but ones it happens you always understand.
the key to complete harmony with the universe.
You have it 100%. I guess the more answers we give, the more it will come together. Very difficult to explain riding the bevel. I don't even want to try to explain rolling a bead with a skew. Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Bruce,
I assume you mean me when you refer to a square end. I find, and have talked to other turners who feel that this profile takes a cleaner cut. I have never had the corner catch in my year and a bit of turning.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I started out a couple of years ago with a yard sale purchase of a craftsmen lathe and a tool set. I have been adding tools since. Go ahead and get the set. One of the things I find is that I am constantly experimenting with different tools to get different surfaces etc. Turning, beyond ridding the bevel, is a lot of personal 'feel' between you, the wood and the tool that having different tools to experiment with is really important in my opinion. You will be hooked.
No I don't think matching handles is important.
I think you should go with high carbon steel antique tools from ebay. I've heard people say they can break and injure you. I don't know about that. You just have to keep them sharp and shave with them and they won't get too hot.
But before you buy a lathe, you really need to go to this guy's website and watch his videos.
http://www.robin-wood.co.uk
I've done some spindle turning like this. Its fun and it'll make you a better turner. Its a great way to learn turning- the best maybe.
Have fun turning.
Adam
If I could figure out how to power a lathe with a treadmill or elliptical machine, I could kill two birds with one stone! It has got to be a challenge to keep your working edge steady while pumping the pedal on that pole lathe. What I have heard about carbon steel as opposed to HSS is that the higher speeds of lathes now get the carbon steel tools too hot, plus they are at greater risk of losing temper when grinding. Are you saying that this is not really a concern? If not, I would love to find old tools and turn new handles for them.It sounds like all of you are as hooked on turning as I plan to be. I really could see this quickly becoming my favorite area of wwing. Given my limited free time, it seems like a great thing to be able to start and finish a project in the same session.
Joe,
In response to Adam's post, I agree that a HCS blade will take a keener edge than HSS. However, every turner I know only sharpens their tools to 80 grit or 120 at the finest. The one excetpion is the skew. In my view, the primary concern is edge retension, not edge keenness. As for heat, there is far less heat build-up when turning green wood. But even last night while turning green acacia, I could feel the warmth of the wood shavings. The tool also gets warm, but never too hot to handle and certainly not hot enough to cause HCS to lose its temper.
Call me crazy, but I think I would choose economy turning tools made of HSS than top-of-the-line tools made of HCS (if such a thing existed.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Turning with a man powered lathe is not strenuous. And the coordination is not tricky. But you don't have power to scrape, so you are incentivized to always use the tool at its most efficient. And you know immediately when you are not doing so. That's why its great to learn on a man powered lathe. If you start off with a Oneway which has gobs of power and doesn't move no matter what you do, I don't know how you learn. You need sharp tools to turn this way. Straight from the grinder isn't good enough. Sharp tools generate less heat and leave a surface that doesn't require sanding. I generally don't sand my turnings (nor do a scrape - except sometimes at the bottom of a small cove). Their edges also hold up longer. HSS seems gummy to me. It clogs my stones. I hate it.HSS is relatively new. Most older tools are HCS. I buy mine for under $10 each. I have some nice older Bucks with nice beech handles. I also have a really old skew that's about 2-1/2" wide.The magic number for HCS is like 400F. Production turners scraping out parts or guys with duplicators can generate this heat and not care. Like Chris, you can feel the shavings and the steel in your hand beginning to warm. That tells me I'm being too aggressive and my tool needs sharpening. But this only ever happens on an electric lathe. With a pole lathe, there's a whole lot more starting and stopping. And that doesn't mean it takes longer. (watch Robin wood turn). You can be very aggressive with a pole lathe.Adam
Adam,
I share your view on a man-powered lathe, though one may have a hard time finding one. I suppose that one could achieve the same effect by lessening the belt tension.
I don't understand how a HSS tool could clog up a stone, unless it is coated with sap or other goop, which I assume is not. I am curious as to how you sharpen your tools. Do you start at the bench grinder before moving to stones? How fine a grit do you sharpen/hone to?
For the record, I feel the warm shavings only when I am aggresively roughing out a bowl. I am not worried in the least about quality of cut - moreso about having the tool not catch.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
As to the lathe, I screwed a 1x2 to the shop ceiling, tied a string to it, wrapped the string around the work on the lathe, and fastened it to a stick at the floor. Viola! Spring pole lathe. Works fine.The gumminess I'm talking about is the steel itself. I don't think gumminess is the right word either. Its not softness. It may have something to do with grain size. Listen. I'm not a good turner. I turn spindles a lot and I seem to turn a lot, though I can't tell you what I make. I've made many tools and parts for tools on my lathe. When I turn a spindle (or a tool handle), I'm looking for that polished surface you get straight from the skew. I sharpen that skew just as I would any other chisel. Grinder followed by stones. Sometimes I even strop it. I find rolling beads with a skew is easier if the skew is sharp. This may not be true for more experienced folks.Robin Wood turns beautiful bowls with his spring pole lathe. I don't know how easy that would be. He seems to do quite a bit of roughing with a hatchet and he has special tools, the likes of which, I've never seen before.About catches- one spring pole lathe the work piece goes back and forth. So you can get catches on the return stroke! That said, since I've been aware of that, it hasn't happened since. Otherwise, I don't think about the work reversing. I just cut like normal and it seems to work fine.Adam
It would be difficult to lose temper on steel when turning, you'd have to heat the edge to +500F and you'd start burning wood.
Older steels are softer, frequently more malleable, than modern steel. If it's really a concern, turn at a lower rpm.
You'll just have to re-sharpen more frequently, tool life will be shorter.
What I have heard about carbon steel as opposed to HSS is that the higher speeds of lathes now get the carbon steel tools too hot, plus they are at greater risk of losing temper when grinding. Are you saying that this is not really a concern? If not, I would love to find old tools and turn new handles for them.
Leon
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