Hi Folks,
I have been studying classic furniture making for just over 2 years (I know I have a lot to learn yet, but am able to make some nice pieces) … and am now semi-retired and seriously considering furniture (solid wood) making as my occupation.
If anyone has any suggestions on how to go about finding customers, please …
Here is my web-site … http://www.natory.ca/
Comments and suggestions are very welcome …
Softouch
Replies
This is hard to do over the internet. There is so much that you know about you that we don't. Kind of like getting a checkup over the phone. That said, there are two ways I look at it.
Either method can work. Regardless, I find the realities of the world economy have changed so much over the past fifteen years. In general, the % of population willing to pay for solid wood work is low. And peeps worry more about the price, surface and show than they do longevity or intrinsic quality. I am not in the business for money/profit as a whole, and I'd hate to have to start out with that goal in today's market. Oh, it's done. It's just not done successfully by many. Best wishes.
Denny
Edited 6/6/2008 2:07 pm ET by blewcrowe
Thanks for your comment ... U have reinforced my basic thinking re the few willing to pay for quality wood work ... re my take on the market and my comfort ... my instincts tell me that specializing in custom entretainment units may be the way to go ...
Three words: word of mouth. Most other small business owners I know do have websites, but rely on them as a reference. If they run into somebody who has an interest in their work, they give them their card which has their website address on it so that they can see their work.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I agree, I was just reminding myself this morning to prepare business cards ... I also sent an announcement to my former colleagues, family and friends asking for referrals, with an incentive small shelf for the person who refers my first signimifacnt client.
Thanks ...
This is much too big a question to get a perspective on from some website postings. But it starts with your own aims: Are you looking for some additional income during retirement, or are you just starting out? And what is the number 1 priority here - making custom furniture or making money? And so on...
There's a lot of collective experience here but the question has to be much more detailed for you to get helpful suggestions. I've been in the WW business almost 40 years, but my own successes and failures are quite specific to my situation, my location, my aims, and so on.
Give us a lot more info, especially about your aims for the business. Where would you like to be in 5 years time?
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Thanks David,
My personal objectives are:
Have fun
Create quality work (solid wood, classic joinery techniques, etc.)
Learn ... especially fine finishing
Specialize - leaning toward custom entertainment units ..
Supplement my income ... but I do not want to undervalue my work either ...
Appreciate your thoughs ...
Carl
Softouch,The following is lifted from a pamphlet that I once wrote, aimed at aspiring professional woodworkers. Maybe you'll find it relevant.
"Before you jump into professional woodworking, take a moment to consider the freedom you probably now enjoy as a hobbyist. You come and go as you please. If you want to spend the weekend exploring a new technique you can do it without compunction. It may turn out to be the most enjoyable day you have spent in some time. But even if it turns out to be less than extraordinary, you have nevertheless spent the day learning something. If you wish to simply putter around the shop there is no reason not to. You pick and choose projects according to your own agenda, whatever it may be. You spend as much time as you wish exploring the tool outlets, the on-line websites, and so on. You make furniture (or whatever) in a certain style because it appeals to you aesthetically, or because it challenges your skills. True, you have only a limited amount of time in the shop but it is quality time, doing what you wish and probably learning a great deal.
By becoming professional you will be trading off a great deal of that freedom for something like the following: You have promised to deliver a commissioned project by Friday or the customer will be furious that you have ruined his weekend. What is more, you absolutely need his money for the bills that have gone unpaid for too long. So you are working evenings to finish the project, and do not have time for anything, not even the outing with the kids you had promised them. But when last month’s client calls with an urgent problem, you are forced to find the time to resolve his difficulty immediately; you cannot allow a dissatisfied customer to damage your good reputation. And now you are even more pressed for time, with the result that the woodworking tasks you had always enjoyed have suddenly become a burden to be gotten out of the way as quickly as possible. You have the nagging feeling that there is a better way to do a certain task, but you cannot afford to take the time to explore a new technique. It had to be done yesterday. Do you still feel relaxed and free and alive when you come to the shop?
This scenario is no absurd exaggeration just to make my point; it is a surprisingly common experience for many a professional whose business is primarily dependent on himself. * * *
A friend of mine who was CEO of a young company in the textile industry had conflicts with his design department. Whose design vision should set the direction, his or the chief designer’s? How were they going to resolve the questions of what was beautiful and what was not? As it happened, the issue came up in a discussion with an experienced old-timer in the trade who set everyone straight: “I’ll tell you once and for all: what’s beautiful is what sells.” * * *
From a business standpoint he was right. The curious thing is how gradually we professionals come to actually believe it too. If you have definite opinions about design, being in business will put them to the test. Are you capable of investing your time and effort, putting your heart into a project that may be lucrative but you aesthetically dislike? For most artist-craftsmen, the question makes them squirm inside even if they speak about it in a self-assured manner. The inevitable results of this dilemma are twofold – (1) you create red lines that will not be crossed, design criteria for work you accept or reject. This is not only perfectly legitimate, it is the best course of action as long as you can look your spouse in the eye and say “I turned down a commission today that could have paid the college tuition bill. The architect had poor taste and would not accept the changes I suggested. After all, am I a craftsman or a prostitute?” And (2), you begin to believe, gradually, imperceptibly, that “what is beautiful is what sells”. Yes, you still have your sense of esthetics tucked away somewhere, but to protect it you refrain from bringing it into the day-to-day reality of the business. And in doing so, you have quietly betrayed the holistic lifestyle you set out to achieve in the first place. In order to integrate what you love with how you earn a living, you now find you need to muzzle your esthetic watchdog. One freedom was gained at the expense of another."I'll try to post another bit with some ideas for reaching clients...David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Great post David,I have found myself in every one of the scenarios you have mentioned more times than I care to admit. It is very true to this business, especially in your first couple of years. The important thing is to learn from these experiences and implement change to avoid winding up in the same position over and over again.
The reward is watching your business grow and creating a long list of happy clients.Matthttp://www.oldgreenwoodworking.com
Matt,I had a look at your website, and in general I liked it a lot. You've got taste and talent. But you've clearly used 2 different levels of photo quality in the site, probably just 'cause you felt it needed to have more content. Don't do this. Lose the photos that look like they were taken by an amateur with a point-and-shoot camera. Better to have fewer items but ones that project a total commitment to quality. That is the image you must cultivate with dedication and perseverance. It's not only a matter of your choice of wood joints - it comes across in your choice of photos, the layout, etc, what's been called Total Quality Commitment. Remember that it's not furniture you're selling but YOURSELF.regards and best of luck,David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David,Thanks for the compliment and the advice. You raise a valid point. In general I believe my website is long overdue for an overhaul and update anyhow. Like any other piece of equipment you have to find the time to tune it up and maintain it.Thanks again,Matt
http://www.oldgreenwoodworking.com
Say, that's an interesting piece of advice.Take a look at my own website: like 'OldGreen', mine is a mix of professional photographs and ones I took myself. Are my own good enough? Or do you think they compromise the overall appearance of my #1 advertising tool? I'm a serious believer in Bobbie Burns' "Would the gift the giftie gie us / To see ourselves as other see us," so it is with all seriousness that I solicit your advice.NORTHWEST BUNGALOW Handmade Furniture
Granville Island Vancouver BC
http://www.nwbungalow.ca
Fritz,
I'm a little uncomfortable in this role, but if you asked...
I think your website is very coherent, and it has the right feel for what you are making. It's an "Arts and Crafts" website if there is such a thing. The "homey" photos of you and your family are OK, because they're meant to be just that. And the gallery has a good uniform look to it. It's only when you view the individual items that the different quality of photos becomes apparent. I admit that I found the photos of some items, with the corrugated tin wall in the background, a bit too crude. But at least they do not appear mixed on the same screen with high quality photos. So all in all, I think it's pretty good, but you should gradually upgrade those amateur photos.
I wish you all the best, it seems like you deserve it.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David
I couldn't have said it better. Great advice!
Jeff
PS. How's Africa treating you?
Hey Jeff,In a word, Africa's treating me rather poorly lately. The project's investors have lost any sense of direction and also common sense, so I've retreated to a minor consultancy role. There are 3 young guys I trained who are on the site in Angola, but the way things stand now I won't go and they don't want me there. It's all OK with me...my company made a nice profit on what we did during the past year and I'm not in any financial risk now. If I have the time I'll post some interesting photos anyway.regrads, hope you're feeling better,David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David
Sorry to hear that, but glad that you're not getting hit in the pocket book. My guess would always be that start-ups like that in 3rd world countries are high risk at best.
Thanks for the well wishes, and I am feeling pretty good these days. Sad part is, I don't know if I'll be able to handle working in shop conditions again. My woodworking career may be over, at least as a cabinetmaker.
Talk to you soon.
Jeff
Just so as not to come across entirely negative with my previous post, here's a few marketing ideas off the top of my head. These are things that I've tried and had some success with, but again I can't stress too much that it all depends on too many factors, locality, personality, and so on.The absolutely most important thing is to completely understand and internalize that you are not selling furniture, you are marketing yourself. Unless you are a Maloof or a Krenov and your name is enough, the client is actually buying a relationship with you, personally. Part of that relationship is your story, and you need to cultivate that in any way. It's a long-term investment in public relations, but it's the only thing that may eventually lift you out of the daily grind to more desirable territory. After many years, I have only partially succeeded in this. Israel is a small place, only some 7 million people. But within its interior design/architect community my workshop has become well-known, a "player" on the field. Selling has become much easier now because we've been marketing our image for years.1) Sponsor some event. We held a very successful Japanese exhibition, with calligraphy, pottery, and other arts all displayed on our furniture, in our showroom. Since it was a cultural event it got free radio announcements, and the Japanese ambassador even came by to visit, along with local officials. Not one person walked away with a piece of furniture, but 500 people now knew who we are. All it cost was the price of posters and about a week of organizing work.2) Sponsor some contest. We told the local newspaper we would give away a solid wood dining table to whoever won the Best Amateur Interior Design contest. The paper picked up on it, put photos of the contestant's houses in the paper, and we got free newspaper mention for a few weeks running. Price = the cost of making a table.3) Donate a conspicuous piece to a local church/ community center. , with the catch being that your card or name is somehow attached. It has to be a great piece and in a great location for this to be worthwhile. I had the good fortune to meet a producer for a TV cooking show, and we gave them a kitchen work island for the program. Price = cost of making 1 island. Got 4 years of having our name flash in the credits on TV every week.4) Latch on to some holiday event. One year at holiday time when people are out picnicking with their families, we had an "open shop" and invited the public in. We set up a lathe in the center and had someone turning toy tops almost all day long. People brought their kids and watched, fascinated. Of course then they wandered into the showroom and asked about us... Price = nothing but the aggravation of answering questions all day long.5) Direct mail to targeted neighborhoods. Don't bother with newspapers or general advertising. Have a beautiful, stunning brochure made up professionally, and direct mail it to the neighborhoods you want as your clients. Expect about 2% reaction, and only about 1 in 10 of those will turn into an order. No matter. How many orders do you really want? Price really depends on how much you put into the brochure. Our best one (we've done several) cost about $10 each, and we made 3000 of them. With today's technology you can print a very small number of brochures and keep the cost down. 6) Find out who are the best interior designers in your area and get on their case. I mean, find ways to network these people. They are the ones who can really help you. And in general, keep thinking, thinking, outside the box.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Thanks again David,
I really appreciate the feedback from you and the other folks who have posted ...
I do realize that I have a lot to learn, and also want to enjoy the work ... and while i am just dipping my toe into the business arena, I agree that I need to make some showcase projects ...
From that point of view, my intuition suggests that custom built entertainment centres may an area to specialize in, and I was going to design one for myself as such a showcase project and move on from there ... however my wife keeps dstracting me with her requests ;-) ... I guess I need to dig in my heels ...
Carl
After over 20 years in the business I can offer 2 pieces of advice.The first is from no lesser an expert than Thomas Moser. At a trade show here in Vancouver in 2000, he advised us, basically, to double our prices. Members of the actual customer base for handmade, heirloom-quality furniture, he maintained, will not object to dramatic prices, non-refundable design deposits, 50% deposits on all orders, a strict FOB policy, and a 4 to 6 to 8 month wait until their funiture is ready.Second, and this is just my own opinion -- restrict installation work to professional clients (stores, offices, etc) and limit work for residential clients to portable pieces of furniture.NORTHWEST BUNGALOW Handmade Furniture
Granville Island Vancouver BC
http://www.nwbungalow.ca
Thomas is correct. The biggest single mistake any small business person makes (no matter what he/she is selling) is incorrectly calculating the cost of doing business and failing to charge enough.
With woodworkers, I suspect this issue is compounded by a frugal nature. It's very common for people to apply their own attitudes and thought processes to others (i.e., believing that they're similar). Nothing could be further from the truth - one only has to look at politics to bring home the falsehood of this notion. Problem is, a lot of one-person woodworking shops wind up failing because they charge what they think they'd be willing to pay, not what it costs and what other (non-woodworkers) would be willing to pay.
In your list of "professional clients", you need to include interior designers, and the architects.
Their clients, typically have and are more willing to spend the money on high quality, custom, built-ins. The downside of this is you occasionally have to build things they design, such as particle board bookcases with "hammered copper" formica surfaces, and alluminum channel nosings.
This thread struck a chord with me. I'd just like to add my experience to it.
30+ years ago I was a civil service employee with a great career. For some reason I began woodworking in the garage as a hobby with very little previous experience. I learned by copying what others did, made a lot of mistakes, but enjoyed myself.
One day a contractor, who was working on my house, asked me to build a kitchen for another project he was working on. I did so and thus began a woodworking career, albeit a part time one to begin with. Six years latter, and a number of kitchens under my belt, I no longer had time for my very secure civil service career. Despite having a young family, I quit my job and went into the woodworking business. I soon learned that it was nearly impossible to make the kind of living I was used too working by myself. It was a struggle, but with the help of many personal and business friends, I managed to continue on. After a few years one of those business friends steered me to some work for a rapidly expanding national retail store chain.
Fast forward to twenty plus years later. Our shop is 30,000sft, we had up to 50 employess during the busy times and had several million dollars in revenue each year. I had made enough money in the store fixture business to retire at the age of fifty six. I turned the business over to my son and became an employee of the business doing the estimating on a part time basis from my home office. That was six years ago. Now, you might ask yourself why would I quit a business that was so prosperous and a relatively young age? The answer is there are many reasons.
One reason was that, not too long after I realized that trying to make aliving by myself was very difficult, I began hiring employees to help. I had many GREAT employees over the years (some of which worked for me over twenty years), but the few that weren't so great gave me many gray hairs. I took the difficulties with these employees personally. I couldn't help it.
Another reason was dealing with the customers. I obviously had many successful customer relationships, but I also had a few that drove me crazy. It didn't take long to realize that it was much easier dealing with a retail store client on hundred thousand dollar orders than it was dealing with residential cabinet customers on five thousand dollar jobs (a lot of money in those days). With some customers, no matter what we did we couldn't please them. Having a few go bankrupt (one owing the company nearly a half million dollars) also didn't help. I took all these issues personally. To me it was not "business is business", it's personal. I couldn't help it.
Business relationships in general seem to have changed. I once did a million dollar project on a hand shake. Today, I wouldn't do a hundred dollar job on a hand shake. Vendors used to bend over backwards to help make our business successful. Now it seems that our business is only there to make them successful. Vendor loyalties are very difficult to find and maintain. I took these relationship failures personally. I couldn't help it
So, after this long dissertation on a my woodworking career, what is the point of it. The major advice that I would give to someone wanting to go into any business for themselves is "business is business", don't take it personally. Don't take it personally that the project you put your heart and soul into, that is as near to perfection as you can make it, doesn't satisfy your customer. Don't take it personally that your employees want to take a vacation when the deadlines for projects you have will be difficult to meet even if they didn't take a vacation and they knew that BEFORE they asked for the time off. Don't take it personally if your customer promised to pay you in 30 days and your lucky to get you money in 90 days (if at all.) Don't take it personally that your vendors promise to deliver materials on a specified day and deliver them when they feel like it making difficult schedules nearly impossible. "Business is business" and if you can't look at it that way your going to have a difficult time of it. And remember, to the employee, the customer or the vendor, your a business person, not a woodworker!
Wow! I find that writting this has been very cathartic.
In the last nine months I've been re-setting up a woodworking shop in the very same garage I started in in 1972. I'm going to try and learn woodworking (I stopped learning woodworking when I went into business and learned what I needed to to make money.) I'm going to do projects because I want to. I'm going to do the projects that challenge and satisfy my needs. And I'm going take each project PERSONALLY because I CAN help it!
Most Aristotlian.
Thanks,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks,
Excellent considerations ...
I guess my expectation was that I would not have the artistic inner debate ... for me the good news I do not need the money to pay the day to day bills, but could use some extra to stock my wine cellar ;-) ...
As I was discussing with the instructor today at my furniture school, my first objective is to have fun creating quality pieces, but also I do not want to undersell my work ... and he raised exactly the same points re the difficulties posed by many customers ...
I have the idea that many put up with 'the scenario' because they think that in time it will lead to something better, to furthering their own designs or making more money . . . but all the while they are, as you say, 'selling out' in some way that would prevent them from truly achieving their personal dreams. In part I think this may be what separtates the winners from the losers, and in part I think that growing up is about changing perspectives, and in part I think it's just the sad reality that you have painted. Thanks for making me think about this.Brian
Brian, I think you're quite right about the reasons we accept the situation. It's a strange but undeniable fact that for those of us in business, we are always occupied with what is urgent, and almost never make time for what is important. We need to find ways to provoke ourselves into thinking more about what we're doing and why. In that sense, these kind of cyberspace discussions can be useful, but they're no substitute for personal contacts. regards,
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
You make your point very well. I am not in business at all compared to you and would not claim to tell you anything, except I'm thinking now that this exhchange could be used to promote the 'business plan' model to those thinking of starting. What do you want your lifestyle to be like and can you map it out on paper? sort of thing. Of course everything is harder and takes longer than you think. But I guess that one can only respond by doing more planning (hopefully in advance), than less.Brian
David,
Thank you for your post, I can't agree with you more and wish I would have read your article years ago. I am in the woodworking business and am a woodworker second to this. I just met with an architect today on a huge trophy home and bit my tongue for over an hour on the details he and his clients have chosen. I am learning how to disassociate my ego from the job and give the customer what they want, after all it is a customer service industry.
Thanks'
John
Hi Carl ,
Ring has offered up a true life example of scenarios commonly experienced by the self employed wood worker .
When new friends would find out I was self employed they would say wow , cool you can take the day off when ever you want to and you have the freedom to come and go as you please .
Well ,,, I say when you are self employed you only have to work a half a day ,,,,,yeah any 12 hours you choose .
Just because it's after 5 pm or after hours will not mean you are not still focused on the shop or how you will be done in time to pay the bills or how you will work out the detail for the current job , Challenges are good for us but, darn do we need them on every job ?
Often throughout the day I say to myself if it was easy anybody could do it .
Enjoying wood working and having to do it to survive are two different things , I hope if I live long enough to retire I still enjoy it because I have many projects I would like to build .
The jobs will come from people you know and have worked for mostly , learning while on the job will take more time but is usually how it happens , you just can't charge for it . You can hone your skills while doing business , I try and learn something new each day .
This forum is a great place to learn from , it all may not be applicable the day you learn it but store it away for the future .
The most difficult thing is placing a value on your work , the value to the end user is all that matters but the local market will ultimately control the pricing in a given area . Even if your work is head and shoulders above the competition you will be somewhat bound by the local economy , trust me on this one .
regard and best of luck dusty
Dusty, "Well ,,, I say when you are self employed you only have to work a half a day ,,,,,yeah any 12 hours you choose ."So true, but some days I swear it takes me 18 hours just to get my 12 in...Matthttp://www.oldgreenwoodworking.com
Hi Dusty,
I appreciate your reply ... by the way, what do you do with all your wood chips? ... for now I have been uing them as fill since I live in the country in Quebec (maple forests overlooking a small lake) ...
Carl
Carl ,
With all the new wide screen TV sets a demand for systems that will house these beasts is now present as the old entertainment center won't work .
Think of a few designs that could work and show them at the local TV store or furniture store that may also offer custom pieces if they knew where to get them.
Wood chips are offered to gardeners and farmers but most go to the dumpster .
dusty
"Supplement my income ... but I do not want to undervalue my work either ... "
Carl,
I have been "supplementing" my income with woodwork for a while now. I also have a full time job, 2 rental units I own/manage, plus my home, and 2 kids. It's a busy life.
I have busy and slow times with my woodshop work. I turn people away even when times are slow. I refuse to build a product that I don't think will last, will look ugly, or work for customer that I think won't be fun to work with. I send these customers to other woodworkers, stores, or to where ever they will be best served. It seems that in doing so I have earned the customer's trust. Instead of taking their money, they seem think that I have put their interests before my own when I sent them to the right person or place. Many come back again and again for advice, or with better projects for me.
It would seem that I loose a lot of work this way.. I do. I can also look in the mirror and feel good about myself and my business choices. If I wasn't "supplementing", I couldn't make these choices.
Do I still have enough work? Yup. I have about 11 months of parttime work a year. (500-700 hrs of work) By month #12, I need the rest. Then about the time I get the itch for some more shopwork, more work will come.
Hi GRW ,
I can relate exactly to your take on not working for the wrong folks and if the job is not my cup of tea I pass . We do have to eat so often I do something other then what I'd rather do but it is still the level work I only know how to do . One trick pony syndrome , can't switch gears .
When we can't help a client we try and point them in the best direction and make referrals when we can . Your right they come back next year and say hey , we are building a new home .
regards dusty
You need to build five very significant pieces and have them professionally photographed, this will start your professional portfolio. The desk you built is nice, but do a web search on "furnituremaker" and take a look at what your competition is capable of.
Just to tack on to what on of the other posters said about advertising, stick to low cost methods for now. And the most important pick marketing things you can do over and over again with a low cost. You might consider magnetic signs on your truck or van. These can be very effective, have a student (low cost)graphic artist design a logo you can use for this and your cards. If you can start a small mailing list that you can send a new postcard every few months to everybody on it that is a great way to show your work. Nice photos of your work are good for this use as well as for a portfolio. At one time I was a professional photographer and most of the potential clients did not have the time to see a portfolio with more than a dozen pictures so better to do a nice portfolio with 5-10 photos than a big stack of photos that are not that good. Anyway I could go on and on but you get the idea.
good luck
Troy
Softouch,
Here's my guidelines for furniture and selling it. The first thing anyone will notice when they see your Furniture is the Design!! The second is the finish and the last is the Quality. That's not to say quality is not an issue, but no matter how good the quality, a poorly designed piece will not be received well.
The finish is very important because it's what a prospective customer feels when they touch your furniture, even if it's an oil finish. It should be smooth and have an even reflection. Use of the proper sheen whether gloss or satin is important also.
When you have all three of these components together you should have work that people will stop and say, Wow! And then it's a matter of Marketing, which to me is the most difficult aspect of this business.
I urge you to check out the Furniture Society and best of luck with your Furniture making.
Earl
Most of my business comes via interior designers. I sent some of them letters about myself years ago and have not advertised at all since. They get me lots of high end clients.
Thanks ... I will try that avenue ... low volume, hi value ...
Also I just got caught up on the thread ... some very helpful comments from so many folks.
Thanks to all who took the time to post ...
I am taking it one step at a time ... I have one prospective client (friend) who will soon be providing me a rough specification for a built in for his country home and I will go from there ... reach out to interior designers, architects, general contractors, etc. and as soon as I finish my current (Louis XV chess table) project make the time to design and build a showcase piece (my own entertainment centre) ...
So to that point, does anyone know of good reference sources for designing such entertainment units? I am most interested in the creative provisions/techniques for cabling, hidden but easy access for set up of connections, heat dissipation, etc. ?
Edited 6/15/2008 12:37 pm ET by Softouch
There is an article in the latest issue of Carving magazine on this subject (starting a small woodworking business). The issue is #23, Fall 2008, and the article is titled "Ask Joe: The Business Side of Woodcarving". It was quite a good read, and most of the advice/points that the author makes has little to do with wood carving - it would apply to any small woodworking operation. Worth getting the issue if you're interested in the subject of starting a small woodworking operation.
Regarding making entertainment centers as a business enterprise - I'd think long and hard about going down that road if you intend to stay a one-man (or one-woman!) operation. I build quite a lot of case furniture (for myself and family, not as a business), and it's tough to do as a one-person show. The reason is that during construction/finishing, pieces frequently need to be turned over or laid on their side. That's quite easy to do with 2 people, but really tough as one person. My neighbor is typically willing to help out when I near the end and have the carcass as one piece, but I wouldn't want to ask on a daily basis.
I'd think a 7 foot tall entertainment center, even if built in two or more pieces, would be a difficult thing to turn out on a daily basis without an employee to help out.
BTW - I did send Asa a copy of my post suggesting an interview with Chris Becksvoort on this subject. He liked the idea as an on-line article, we'll see where it goes from there.
dk,
Yep , you are right turning out large cabinets on a daily basis without an employee is not easy ,,,but I have been doing it for over 25 years and while 2 can do so much easier then one on some operations with a little more time and effort one can manage .
Remember "necessity is the Mother of invention"
If it was easy anyone could do it , may be the theme song for many of us.
FYI a 7' tall entertainment cabinet in two pieces is a piece of cake compared to much of what exists in the real world of a cabinet makers tasks .
Trust me on this Rodeo
dusty
On the contrary, I think you have alot to add to this thread. I hope you don't mind me asking this, but what were the leading factors which caused your business to fail? If these are common factors to many woodworking business, then your advise would be extremely valuable.
Brent
http://www.brentcdaniell.com
Edited 6/8/2008 7:06 pm ET by BCD1104
You may not know it but you have added something.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I consider you're unfortunate luck to be a good example for myself and others whom are starting, or looking to start a wood working business.
please don't take it the wrong way. You had a very hard time of it, even though you tried (what seems to me) the right stuff. As a beginner in the professional side of woodworking I have already turned down many jobs that either didn't sit right with me or was the wrong type of WW projects! those: I saw this in Ikea type of jobs!
It has been hard to convince others (and myself) that the furniture I produce will not be within there means financially, and or taste wise.
My goal is to sell to people with money, not cash strapped locals who can't afford the rent each month and ask to give you post dated checks. The major problem is hooking up with the right market place. Who knows I might get lucky, but until then I'm going to keep my overhead down and produce some showpiece items for a portfolio. sell some small stuff and look into other avenues.
I'm also aware that ultimately I might have to produce work that either isn't up to my personal standards or in a style that I don't care for and so on! After all its a business not a hobby anymore.
Your problems are'nt isolated to you alone. They are a good example of the real grind were in all the time with customers, family and friends and unforeseeable events.
I don't expect it to come easy and I see no other alternative but to supplement my income with part time work.
I'm glad your back on track with your WW it would be a shame to end your love with WW over a failure which was'nt your fault!
Chaim
Make your own mistakes not someone elses, this is a good way to be original !
I've been reading this thread with great interest, as I've certainly toyed with the idea of selling my work professionally, despite the very long odds that go with it.
I don't know if anyone on this thread knows one or more of the editors of FWW, but here's an idea that would have everyone that gets the magazine riveted:
An interview with Chris Becksvoort on this very subject. Chris, to my knowledge, has been going it alone as a one-man shop for his entire career. He has no doubt learned a great deal on how to run such a business and what kind of profitability you might expect from making reproduction and "in the style of" pieces in a one-off manner, rather than a semi-production line type of small business that Brain Boggs, Thomas Moser and Irion Co. are modeled after (that's not a slam against those companies - I highly respect their work, they're just set up as multiple-employee shops rather than individual maker operations)
I would love to read such an article - how about it, FWW?
Ok, here ya go:
Asa Christiana, [email protected]
David Heim, [email protected]
Mark Schofield, [email protected]
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
http://www.woodwork-mag.com/back_issues.htmlWoodwork did an article on Becksvoort in Aug 03, #82. Very interesting article and some very interesting responses from Becksvoort on his journey. For all the time he puts in his work he doesn't make much money.
Woodwork magazine is doing what FWW sort of did years ago. Their profiles on woodworkers is untouchable. If you wait for FWW to cover a topic you will be waiting a long time. Plenty of other resources to get your answers from and I don't mean the web necessarily. Former charter subscriber to FWW. Still read it at the library but Woodwork is much better on many levels. I find Interior Design much more inspiring. Get Custom Woodworking Business, Woodshop News and other free professional trade magazines.
Edited 6/18/2008 7:58 am ET by RickL
Edited 6/18/2008 8:22 am ET by RickL
I agree - I subscribe to Woodwork as well as FWW, and FWW is definitely going downhill in a vain corporate effort to expand their readership. What they're doing, of course, is shifting their market from one segment of the woodworking community to another by dumbing down their content - it's not actually possible to be a magazine "for all woodworkers".
Woodwork's content is where FWW used to be - I can't remember the last time I saw a tool review in Woodwork, nor an article on jig building. The only thing I don't like about Woodwork is their focus on the "studio art" furniture styles, but that's not something I can actually complain about from a quality perspective - it just reflects my personal tastes.
There's a thread discussing FWW's most recent issue in the "Magazine" section of the forum where a number of us expressed displeasure at the direction FWW is going - it's titled "You guys are on a roll!".
Thanks for the reference for the Woodwork back issue - I may order that one.
Ironic, isn't it, that Woodwork claims to be just that on its cover: "A Magazine for All Woodworkers." Guess you really can't judge a book by its cover.
Jim
Yeah, I thought of the front cover of WW when I wrote the post. Funny thing is, in a way they're right.
The mistake that FWW's new leadership is making is thinking that just because someone is a beginner or an intermediate, that they have no appreciation for advanced work and thus won't buy the magazine. That's false - I've only recently gotten to the point where I can build most of the objects presented in the first 10 years or so of FWW, but I've been reading for close to 30 years - first my grandfather's subscription and now mine.
I can garantee I wouldn't have read all those old FWW backissues if they were filled with birdhouse jig plans.
'birdhouse jig plans'--AAAAAHHHHHHHHH! That's the type of thing that should not be in print, at least if it's vying for my time. Thanks a lot for giving me the creepy-crawlies. Nice writing.Brian
HEY!
What you guys got against birdhouses? Everyones gotta have a home ya know. Besides, you can have a lot of fun making them and they're useful too. I spose ya don't like bat houses neither!
Did you know that swallows and bats consume massive quantities of bugs? Them pesky critters that bug you when yer outside. I think birdhouses are a very green way to enhance your yard.
Not only that but would you agree that one aspect of fine woodworking is about refinements/enhancements (may not be a good choice of words) to a form. Any form. Didn't SamMaloof take the form of a chair and turn in into his own interpretation?
I do agree that if the first years of FWW were all about birdhouses that would've been quite the yawn though. To me, in this day and age we need an infusion of QUALITY, not quantity. We're surrounded by Chunk and lack of services.
So, I challenge you folks to take the birdhouse form and make something that one could consider fine woodworking. If ya come up with something really fine let Mak Schofield know about it.
Betcha caint come up with something that you would put in the Knots Gallery!
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1572230495
-Steve
Bob - There's quite a community of birdhouse builders, and a lot of them build birdhouses that are works of art intended for collectors. That said, plans ala Woodcraft's Magazine for such do not belong in Fine Woodworking. This is the point that I and others have been complaining about to the FWW editorial staff. There are many legit areas of woodworking that just don't belong in FWW - like pen turning. It's a huge business for suppliers, an enjoyable hobby for thousands, and a lucrative business for a few. But it's essentially "kit" woodworking, where very little turning skill is required - all you have to be able to do is turn a sized, square blank into a comfortable radially symmetrical shape, correctly bore an axial hole (with any of many hundreds of available jigs), and assemble the hardware. While the results are satisfying and even beautiful, it is NOT Fine Woodworking.
Our local newspaper sponsors a contest every year - many of the best are entertaining to look at:
http://www.newsobserver.com/lifestyles/home_garden/photos/story/1024917.html
dk ,
I understand what you are saying but really do you believe there is only one definition of fine woodworking ?
Whether we make a beautiful picture frame or a book case or a chair or a canoe , can it not be fine wood working as in any piece made ?
Mine and yours interpretation of FWW may be different then the masses , so who's right ? Can something be a beautiful wood working project but not fww ?
Would you agree that beauty is in the eye of the looker ? or just because we are educated and experienced do we know best what is good and what is not ?
I also would be disappointed in the FWW mag if they put bird house plans in .
Talking about Mr. Maloof takes me back to his beginnings , to me he was sort of a Popular mechanics garage type of woodworker with no formal ww training to my knowledge , look what developed from the humble start against all odds it can happen . With that in mind some low skill projects can be what drives some to continue and tackle more difficult ones , we should not discourage any beginners.
regards dusty
blow-in" forms for subscription
Uh oh, then all the subscribers will be complaining about having to deal with 'em. Crabbin and complainin about little pieces of paper annoying them. Hell save 'em for disposabile shims!
Now I must thank you for the great lead in! Whilst not familiar with pen turning I must challenge you as to your definition of fine woodworking. In my opinion what constitutes fine woodworking should not be limited to a form. That said I must embark on building the Ultimate Birdhouse, using only fine woodworking.
But I must first learn what that is!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob - I was a bit uncertain about whether to post an answer to what you ask here or whether to put on the new thread you started on the same topic. Since this conversation was already started, this seemed the most appropriate place.
First, on the question of defining something that is by nature subjective. My thinking is quite old school on this subject, and would completely infuriate those who tend to use words and phrases like "going on an inner journey" and "moving forward with productive dialogue", but here it is:
Just because a particular definition does not have bright lines on the edges doesn't mean that specific, correct conclusions cannot be drawn about the question as a whole. For those with similar thinking as myself (and I'm surprisingly not unique in this regard), there really is such a thing as "bad art". Every opinion, no matter how heartfelt, is not equally valid. One of the reasons that I've come to this viewpoint is that to do otherwise means checking your brain at the door - if everything is equally "OK", qualitative analysis, critique and judgement is not possible.
So - from the standpoint of what constitutes fine woodworking, I would define it as the process that leads to a specific result - both the process and result are critical to the definition. That process means working from your intuition, judgement, analytical ability and creativity with raw materials to create a form that has pleasing proportion, lack of banality, possibly some satire, wit and/or humor and a very high standard of craftsmanship.
To that end, specifically excluded from this definition of Fine Woodworking are:
1) Anything made from a kit - no matter what it is, or how basic or how "almost together" the kit is (ship model, birdhouse, wooden pen, boat, etc...)
2) Anything made with manufactured materials that takes away from the afore-mentioned high standard of craftmanship - for example, biscuit joints. Another extreme example is Norm Abram's reproduction of a Dominy clock where he used a cheap quartz movement as a substitute for the correct mechanical movement. A reasonably attractive overall result, but not Fine Woodworking.
3) Jig building, no matter how clever.
4) Anything made with construction lumber - including outdoor tables, chairs or barbequing carts.
There are probably quite a few other examples that I haven't thought of that should be excluded from the definition of Fine Woodworking, but you get the idea...
Nothing against birdhouses at all. Please understand that I am the type of woodworker that doesn't use bought plans to make anything, so plans for something that would make it easier (jigs) to build birdhouses (a minor or casual project) would be the furthest down on my list. So far down in fact to make me squirm. Like Lataxe, I do not have the space or temperment to store all these jigs and fixtures that would make life easier. So there it is. I don't want to hear about birdhouse jig plans nor be implicated in their making. This is crucial to my sanity.Brian
A question for you. I noted your comments on Woodwork Magazine and did a Google search to take a look. I found the web page and links to order back issues by mail but could not find any way to get info on subscribing. Can you help with that? Thanks.
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
That's sort of weird - I checked the website also, and there's no link that I can find for subscriptions. Woodwork doesn't have much of a web presence compared to other magazines, which will hurt them in the future. "Youngsters" (i.e., those in their 20's) grew up with the web and very much expect any publication to have a lot of stuff on the 'net.
Woodwork is in just about every major bookstore I've ever been in, and like every other newstand publication out there, is filled with "blow-in" forms for subscription. It's worth buying the new issue - it's got quite a lot of interesting stuff in it.
I'll check the newstand. I would expect every magazine, or firm, that has a web site to offer many options for contact. Woodwork does not seem to think that it is important. Thanks for the reply.
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
Hi Bruce,
Try this: http://www.penrose-press.com/idd/MAG15681.card
Yes, they should have a link on the Woodwork Magazine WEBsite to subscribe as I couldn't readily find one either. The mag is one of Ross' Periodicals. If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of the Woodwork page you'll see Ross Periodicals address and a phone number.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks for the info Bob. I will give them a call in a couple of hours when they open. We east coast/midwest people (Ohio) get up earlier than the left coast. :):)
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
I think it takes a bigger person to admit defeat/failure. The biggest of them learn from their experience and move on to better things.
Those that shun defeat/failure have much to hide.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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