Replies

1. 
   jonsherryl | Apr 22, 2003 05:21pm | #1

   Some people are exceptionally sensitive to tannic acid (I'm one of them) and both oak and chestnut have very high tannin content. The symptoms I experience are a reddish rash, especially on the hands...and if I really over do it with heavy exposure to the dust when working with oak, I also experience heartburn and a mild nagging headache.

   With all this said though, I wouldn't be too quick to conclude that you are suffering from a tannin reaction. What concerns me is that you mentioned chestnut as one of the woods you are working with and that suggests it most likely is very old stock (resawn barn beams, etc.)...So, there is a better than average chance that it could be contaminated with whatever it is that is affecting you. Mold of some sort might be a good bet. If you're also experiencing some respiratory problems, it's not something to ignor, since some molds can be very dangerous.

1. 
   PineIslander | Apr 22, 2003 05:34pm | #2

   Thanks for the feedback, Jon...

   The stuff was indeed really old and wormy... I suspect you're on to something about the mold.

   Fortunately, no respiratory problems, just a rash.

   It's not really a big issue, mostly I'm just curious, and want to potentially avoid it in the future.

1. 
   forestgirl | Apr 22, 2003 06:46pm | #4

   This time of the year, the allergy posts start coming on a regular basis.  You are very smart to not ignore the rash occurence.  We've had some very scary stories from WWers who ignored early symptoms.  A couple of them ended up in the hospital.  When you say "Fortunately, no respiratory problems, just a rash," keep in mind that's this time.  Allergy symptoms tend to worsen with each additional exposure, and can sometimes become drastic without any warning. 

   You would be very smart to protect your skin and respiratory system thoroughly against any wood that you have a reaction to, however small.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   PineIslander | Apr 22, 2003 07:06pm | #5

   Ahhh, herein lies the rub (no pun intended)... eliminating the variables.

   I've never experienced the problem with red oak before, and I'd never previously worked with chestnut... but I'm really thinking  Jim and Jon are on the right track w/ the mold... if so, it sounds to me be exposure to an irritant rather than an allergic reaction. But I sure will pay attention.

   Thank you, Forestgirl, for the great advice.

   BTW: Forestgirl, how do you ever get any work done? By the sheer volume of your postings, you must spend hours here daily!!! 

1. 
   forestgirl | Apr 22, 2003 11:10pm | #6

   Some of my postings get done when traffic is slow at my retail store.  Many get done when I'm eating breakfast and coffee in the am, or taking a break in the evenings.  Keep in mind too, I type around 80wpm, so it doesn't take long to dash something out.

   My sweetie's working out of state these days, so I find when he's not home, which is most of the time, I like to chat woodworking on-line -- keeps me out of trouble, and he's clueless about all this stuff.  I have learned so much by hanging out at Knots, and get lots of strokes from people I've helped out too, so that's fun.

   Now, if I could just get Sarge and ToolDoc to quit dreaming about that walnut, LOL!!

   BTW, I don't know for sure, but would guess that reactions to molds would tend to be more respiratory than rash-oriented.  And, a rash is a very, very common symptom of allergic reaction.  Whatever it is, your body is saying "I don't like this!" and it may say it much louder next time.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   PineIslander | Apr 23, 2003 07:30am | #8

   Well, I've been impressed by the content as well as the volume of your postings... and I appreciate that sometimes when the testosterone gets flying around here, you can be subtly disarming. Nice job! (Of course, we men have been subtly manipulated by smart women since... well... forever!)

   So, just out of curiousity, what kind of retail store?

3. 
   forestgirl | Apr 23, 2003 09:35am | #11

   So as not to hi-jack this thread, I'll give you a link to answer your question about my store (the whole thread was about what we do in our "real" lives):

   http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=8328.52

   "Subtly disarming" is probably not the description that my sweetie would use to describe me, LOL!!  Just can't seem to swing it when put on the spot face-to-face.  Tend to resort to the 2x4 approach way too quickly sometimes.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

4. 
   PineIslander | Apr 23, 2003 09:32pm | #15

   Yeah, we're digressing a bit... thank you all for your input.

   BTW: Did anyone find that FWW #009?

2. 
   jjf | Apr 22, 2003 06:32pm | #3

   I get skin rash and sometimes infections from red oak lumber,  more likely with dirty oak.  The probable reason is that oaks are dried slowly.  Mold often grows on the surface initial during drying because of the slow drying.  Minute splitters driven into the skin of the hand and wrist while ripping on the table saw can get the mold under the outer layer of skin that usually protects us from infections.  Secondary infections can also develop that requires antibiotics.

3. 
   DaveinPa | Apr 23, 2003 01:07am | #7

   My down fall is Black Walnut. I get a sore throat for days after working with ,so FG, Your unlimited supply of Black Walnut is safe I have some info aroud the shop and I will look for it. Take some benadryl and see what happens.

   Dave in Pa.

1. 
   PineIslander | Apr 23, 2003 07:38am | #9

   Thanks Dave... I look forward to any info you can find.

   I think I'll log out and try a Google search of the web...

1. 
   DaveinPa | Apr 28, 2003 03:07am | #22

   Here is a link that I told you about. Wood is nastier then you think.

   Dave in Pa.

   http://www.mendelu.cz/user/horacek/toxic.htm?

2. 
   forestgirl | Apr 23, 2003 09:24am | #10

   "...unlimited supply of Black Walnut...."  Don't I wish!!!  I got two flitches, 10 feet long each, should have taken them all but didn't have my lumber rack built yet, so was trying to be sensible.  Wrong choice!  When I called back to see what was left (walnut and cherry) it was all gone to one guy, whose IQ is obviously higher than mine.

   So far, I've not shown any allergic reactions to wood, and am hoping to keep it that way, but haven't worked any exotics or any of the walnut yet.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   DaveinPa | Apr 23, 2003 02:48pm | #12

    it was all gone to one guy, whose IQ is obviously higher than mine.

   There is a mistake here. No man has an IQ higher then a woman. We are considered useless, non worthy, hairy, bad smelling, drag our knucles on the groung when we walk slobs and jackasses. Standing only 5'1" tall I am considereda troll by many women. I can't wait for the wart to grow on the end my nose. This all from an expert in the field, my wife.

   Dave in Pa.

2. 
   RANGERP75R | Apr 23, 2003 05:33pm | #13

   Jamie

      You got two flitches, 10 feet long. Are you sure? Have you checked the wood-rack this morning. he..he.. <G>

   sarge..jt

1. 
   forestgirl | Apr 23, 2003 07:02pm | #14

   EEEEEeeeeeeeeeeek!  police, police!!!!!!  forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

4. 
   notDusty | Apr 24, 2003 05:59am | #16

        You didn't say if you broke out all over or was it more isolated . For instance a rash on the hand or hands can be from an irritant , or reaction to exposure of ? Personally MEK and Acetone cause a bad rash . Laquer thinner and other solvents do not bother me . The Dermatologist calls it , get this, "Contact Dermatitis " mine was from the solvent in putty .         good luck

1. 
   PineIslander | Apr 24, 2003 08:39pm | #17

   Dusty, it's kind of odd:

   This was a big project, a king-sized bed. No problems whatsoever while rough milling or hand planing the panels. The final step was a hand-carved star to be inset in the headboard.

   I turned the blank on a lathe, and then stood at my bench to carve. Sometime after this point I lost my voice, then later a rash appeared in various places: right elbow pit, left wrist, left thigh, sporadically on my chest, and on my left cheek. Nothing at all on my hands.

   Weird, huh?

1. 
   jonsherryl | Apr 24, 2003 10:18pm | #18

   Hmmm Piney...maybe you're blaming the crosswalk, because that's where you were when you got run over. Have you considered other totally unrelated potential causes...other exposures (chemicals, sun, infections, etc) or diet during the same time period?

1. 
   PineIslander | Apr 25, 2003 12:39am | #20

   LOL!  Believe me Jon, I've been there and done that. My wife and I have racked our brains... nothing different in diet or exposure that we can think of... I certainly haven't changed brands of beer...

   I still keep going back to the fact that to the best of our recollection the first symptoms started when I was turning and carving...

   ... but I guess only time and repetition will tell.

2. 
   notDusty | Apr 24, 2003 10:54pm | #19

          Pine Islander ,

        I think Mr. Arno could be on the right track . Here on the west coast we have poison oak that when burned and in the air can effect some people in the throat and air way . Not to mention in various places on the body . Obviously many things can be responsible for your symtoms .       good luck

1. 
   PineIslander | Apr 25, 2003 12:56am | #21

   Dusty, you and Jon are preaching to the choir... weird stuff, huh? Obviously, there may well be another cause, but I'm sure not coming up with any suspects. 

   We're kinda out in the country here; it's not at all unusual for someone to be burning trimmings... but that's a common occurance, and I've never had symptoms like this before.

   I guess I'll just be extra observant for symptoms next time I work with chestnut... don't know what else I can do.

   Thanks for all your input!

5. 
   pauld | Apr 29, 2003 03:50am | #23

   Pine Islander,

   Could the Oak have been Silky Oak? Understand it's related to Poison Oak.

   Makes me wonder if calamine and calamity share the same root...

   Here's hoping your days & nights are itch-free,
   Paul

1. 
   jonsherryl | Apr 29, 2003 04:31am | #24

   Paul, you raise an interesting possibility here...Silky-oak is a nasty species, but it's not closely related to poison ivy. It is an Australian member of the Proteaceae family, while poison ivy is a New World species in the Anacardiaceae. Just by chance, they share similar chemistry as a result of some quinones in their extractives. The symptoms would be the same, though.

1. 
   PineIslander | Apr 29, 2003 02:32pm | #25

   Oh yeah... ummmm... that's EXACTLY what I was thinking... ummm... the...uh... quinones in their extractives! Yeah, that's the ticket!

   Dang you guys are smart... that's why I love this place! (Maybe one day It'll rub off on me.)

   Anyway, nope on the silky quinones... it was just some good ol' American rift-sawn red oak, and some ol' wormy American chestnut.

1. 
   jonsherryl | Apr 29, 2003 06:43pm | #27

   Come on Piney, quinones have nothing to do with rocket science. They're just naturally occurring hydrocarbons (similar to petroleum based solvents) and they often initiate human allergies. Alkaloids do also, but they tend more often to be universal poisons, as opposed to merely selective allergens.

   When it comes to organic chemistry, the devil's in the details, but understanding some of these basic plant extractives and what they are capable of doing to you isn't that difficult to get a handle on.

1. 
   PineIslander | Apr 29, 2003 07:44pm | #28

   Easy for you to say, Jon!

   Actually I dropped Organic Chem... never was good at all that memorization.

   So you say these are these quinones resemble petroleum-based solvents... are they released into the air when wood fibers are cut, or do they act via ingestion/skin contact of the sawdust that contains them?

2. 
   forestgirl | Apr 30, 2003 06:31am | #29

   I did manage to pass organic chem, but the last memory I have before finals was a vivid dream in which I was the center of some compound, and my arms and legs were waving around holding together all the molecules.  And, I wasn't even on drugs!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   jonsherryl | Apr 30, 2003 07:15am | #30

   11838.30 in reply to 11838.29 

   "...And, I wasn't even on drugs!"

   Maybe you were and didn't know it, Forestgirl...Who did you date that night? :o)

4. 
   PineIslander | Apr 30, 2003 03:52pm | #32

   ROFL!!!!

   Now that's one scary dream.... EXACTLY why I dropped that stuff.

5. 
   jonsherryl | Apr 30, 2003 07:38am | #31

   Many of these wood extractives, like quinones and terpenes are rather volatile...They often contribute to the characteristic scent of various species...more so than the alkaloids, anyway. The alkaloids are a lot sneakier, and in a few species the lethal doseage isn't all that great...especially if the wood is used for making food storage containers, or wooden spoons that might get left in a cooking pot of stew.

   They can get into your system by virtually any of the routes you've mentioned.

   In fact, in the curious case of Douglas-fir, it contains a very potent terpene. And when you pick up a sliver working with this wood, it is exceptionally painful and takes a long time to heal.

6. 
   PineIslander | Apr 30, 2003 03:55pm | #33

   Yeah. been there, done that w/ Douglas Fir.

   Jon, thanks for all the great info... I'm impressed... are you a botanist by trade?

7. 
   davamoore | Apr 30, 2003 04:11pm | #34

   Here's my old-fashioned recipe for relief of itchy skin due to mosquito bites, poison ivy, etc., given to me by a doctor-friend:

   Run some hot water in the tap or shower, as hot as you can stand it without burning your skin.  Place the offending part in the water, and let the water run over it for 3-5 minutes, or until the itching subsides.  Voila!  Itch gone.

   Here's the trick, according to the doc:  The itch is the result of histamines being released in the skin cells.  Heat causes the histamines to be released at a much faster rate.  Apparently, the cells have a limited supply of histamine, and it takes 8-10 hours for the supply to be replenished.

   This is perfect for those nights when the itch is driving you crazy.  Jump into the shower, then jump into bed for uninterrupted sleep.  It works for me every time, much better than Benadryl, oatmeal baths, etc.

   Caution:  You shouldn't use this method on broken, bleeding or oozing skin.  Disclaimer:  I am not a doctor, I only play one in front of the PC.  Caveat:  Organic chemistry in college is what made me decide that science was not my thing.  And this may be one of those hiccup-relief-type remedies:  what works for one, may not work for another.  But it wouldn't hurt to try.

   David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad

8. 
   PineIslander | Apr 30, 2003 04:16pm | #35

   Dave, where the heck were you a week or so ago when I was  REALLY itchin'?!!!

9. 
   davamoore | Apr 30, 2003 04:27pm | #36

   Sorry, P.I., if I wasn't in the shop working like a dog to get a couple of pieces done by a deadline, I was out pulling ticks off the real dogs, after they came in from playing on the meadows.  I've just been browsing on Knots, and didn't see your posts until today.

   Tick season has begun in SW Michigan (Easter to the 4th of July), and I don't think the hot-water trick works for Lyme disease!  Ugh... did I mention that I hate ticks?  I'm trying to think of their positive role in the ecosystem, and except for chicken feed, I can't think of anything they contribute.

   David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad

10. 
    forestgirl | Apr 30, 2003 07:42pm | #38

    What technique do you use for the ticks?  When I was a kid, we knocked 'em out with alcohol, using cotton balls.  The tick passes out and lets go of the dog (Grandpa had hunting dogs in North Carolina).

    That hot water thing for itch-relief is intriguing, and I'll certainly try it if I get any localized itching -- mosquito bite, nettles on the hand, etc.  However, caution would be in order if there was a large area of exposure, such as falling down in poison ivy and getting it over a wide area of skin.  Just seems like that level of rapid and extensive release of histamines could possibly cause a serious problem.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

11. 
    davamoore | Apr 30, 2003 08:34pm | #39

    Just seems like that level of rapid and extensive release of histamines could possibly cause a serious problem.

    Oh, FINE... rain on my naturally induced high...  Next thing you know, you'll be telling me to wear a NIOSH/OSHA certified respirator when finishing with stinky solvents, or telling me to stop licking toads... <grin>

    For the ticks, we do what the dogs have come to know as the "tick check" every time they come back to the house.  As soon as they hear us say "Tick check!" they line up on the porch like the patient patrons of a Vidal Sassoon day spa, waiting their turn to get groomed and fussed over.

    Most of the ticks we find are just crawling around in the fur, but when we do find an attached one we have a couple of nifty little tools we picked up at a drugstore.  They look like orange, plastic baby-food spoons or ice-cream tasters, with a little notch cut out of the end of the spoon depression.  You push the spoon against the skin, just behind the tick, slide the notch around the little critter, and lever it off.  Pop!  It usually comes right out, head and all.  Works on humans, too.

    At that point I revert to my grade school habits, and light the tick with a match.  Twisted, I realize, but it vents any aggressive tendencies that might be lurking around under my skin!

    David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad

12. 
    jonsherryl | Apr 30, 2003 04:35pm | #37

    No, I just masquerade as a botanist. I grew up in a family owned lumber business and my academic background consists of an MBA in Marketing from the University of Michigan...plus some of the class work completed for a Ph.D. in Finance. I'm retired now, but my career topped out as a VP of Strategic Planning for an agglomerate out there in Corporate America...And then I did some consulting for awhile.

    I just like plants, because they have no concept of corporate intrigue and they don't talk back.

2. 
   PineIslander | Apr 29, 2003 02:35pm | #26

   Thanks Paul, I wouldn't quite say that I'm itch-free, but I'm much bettter.

   Not sure to praise the Benadyrl or just the time that heals all...