Hi Folks,
Something that I’ve been contemplating – is it better for one to stand or sit whilst carving? I’ve mostly carved whilst standing but want to make a carving bench and am concerned about dimensions such as the height of the bench.
It occurs to me that standing may be better depending on what type of carving one is doing, i.e. chip and relief carving for example as opposed to carving which may require heavier stock removal.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Replies
Bob,
So should one carve standing or sitting?
In thinking about the question, I thought about Michaelangelo. Most painters paint either standing or sitting or leaning. But when Mike did the Sistine Chapel, he did it while lying on his back, which meant he got a lot of paint in his eyes.
I think if one was carving the beams on the ceiling of the Sistine chapel, one would have to do it while lying on one's back.
Seriously though,
WHen chipcarving, I generally sit.
When power carving (chainsaws and carving disks), I NEVER SIT DOWN.
When doing most relief carving, I stand. The reason is that I am always moving around the piece. I move the piece in a vice but I am still moving around it, so I find sitting to be extremely limiting when doing relief carving.
Most of the people that I know who do "whittling", do it sitting down. The local woodcarver's group meets at Woodcraft three days a month. They set up about three tables in a row. Most of them sit while doing this carving. I believe that this is a result of the fact that these meetings are social situations, and there is as much talking going on as carving.
I just thought of something that I haven't tried in a few years. Do you remember when I was researching how German and Swiss chip carvers did the large chip carving on the fronts of buildings and in the woodwork in rooms. I found a book in German about it, and it described the knife, and a bit about the procedures, and it showed some photos. When doing this type of LARGE chip carving, there is no sitting down.
So I guess the answer to whether to sit or stand while carving depends on what you are carving, and what type of carving you are doing. "Carving" is like "love" ---- it is different things to different people.
I don't think this thread is going to break 1000 posts. :-) I haven't found much interest in carving around here since Lee Grindinger left.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Huh. I thought the picture of that over the shoulder chip carving knife thang from 1415 showed the man sitting down.......
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Yup, the guy in the old drawing was sitting down. He was making marquetry. Back in those days marquetry pieces were much thicker than now. YOu can sit and make all sorts of marquetry pieces, but you can't sit and make chip carvings on the walls and ceilings.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I can't seem to get the leverage or the angle I need on the chisel when I'm sitting. I either do relief work or figures, but even when doing chip carving it seems I need to move too much. I'm 6' 1" tall and I built my carving bench 3 inches taller than my woodwork bench.
Magnus
"Remember, a bad carpenter always blames his tools" -Joe Conti-
I'm primarily interested in relief carving, chip carving, shells, fans, etc.; mostly small things. I'm interested in doing carving like is done by Peter Follansbee, for example:
View Image
What size is the top of the carving bench you made? Is it a fixture that you clamp to your workbench? I'm thinking the total height would be about what, say 37 - 39 inches?
What if the carving benchtop could swivel? Would that eliminate some of the need to stand so you can move around? By standing I'm assuming that allows you to put your body into it? Or perhaps more specifically so you can position yourself so you're on top of the piece?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 10/22/2009 9:48 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
My Bench is an offset "T" shape and 38" high. The long side is 72 long and 18" wide. The "T" portion is 24" long and 18" wide and offset from the center 9". I've used the "T" to support wider work and also put a walking stick fixture in. I can almost get all of the way around it. Plus, I can work on something else on the other end. On the open end of the bench, I built a gimball mount that I can swivel and tilt either flat or figures(kind of like the ones you can buy but bigger and stronger).
Carving for me is a winter thing. I'm in Ohio and my shop is in the garage. My carving bench is in the basement with my beer. Magnus
"Remember, a bad carpenter always blames his tools" -Joe Conti-
Hey Bob, A few years back when I was doing a lot of carving of my turnings, I was doing most of while sitting straddle of a carpenter's bench, holding the work between my knees or thighs. This allowed me to change positions relative to the way the grain ran, and or the way best to control the tool relative to the grain or to make a clean sweep with the tool. I would think you could manage doing that with the piece that you show, if it was already assembled, but without that top. Of course turnings are round objects which are hard to clamp, and that box has plenty of flat surfaces which would be pretty easy to clamp near the corner of a bench top, which would give you plenty of maneuvering room while standing.
Hi Keith,
Yeah, chasing the grain is one part I've been wrestling with in terms of sit down carving. I'm still a bit in the dark as to how big of a surface/benchtop is needed for carving. I'm thinking it would be relative to size of the pieces.
Regards, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Wait a minute. Surely you have a workbench. You are not talking about building one for just one carving are you? I know you can get a tired back hunkering over a bench doing tedious work, but there are limits on how much time you can spend on jigs. First spend a little time sharpening your tools, set up some good lights to the sides, then just do it.
What I'm pondering is the ability to carve somewhere other than in the woodshop.
In winter it takes a bit for the woodshop to warm up and I could just as well be carving inside the house in the kitchen. Take the bench up to the lake during the summer, outside under the pergola, etc.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
OK, I am with you now. I still think I would do that size object either on my lap, or held between my knees / thighs. You might be able to sit in a side chair, but the carpenter bench that I mentioned using out in the shop works well, and is easy to make. It is about 18" high, 16" w x 40" long. It is covered with a berber carpet, has a hand slot cut into the center of the top. The two end legs are plywood, the same width as the top, with a couple of triangle braces glued and stapled into the inside corner, and a little arch cut into the bottom edge so it won't rock if the floor is a bit uneven. I just recently made a new one to replace one that I made back around 1972. I used it a lot back then to reach 8' while running crown, but it comes in handy for lots of things. I was needing it in the shop yesterday to hold some half sheets of ply on edge against the bench, while I put an edge on, but it is out on a job-site. I can take and send you a snap if you want, but it is pretty simple.
I do carving indoors too, at an old 40" tall bench in the basement, stand or sit on a barstool. If I get tired of one I switch to the other. I've never used one, but I was kind of intrigued by this workstand: http://www.stewmac.com/shopby/product/5390
It doesn't take up much space, is adjustable, and holds various vices and jigs.
Jim
Bob,
I both sit and stand, it depends on the typr of carving. If large or three dimensional like ball and claw feet, an art deco door, or setee's kneeblocks, where I need to move around, I stand. If smaller objects, like a shell carved drawer front, chip carving a box lid, or even a chair's back, I'm usually sitting, esp if there are a set of backs to be done. I'm lazy that way:-)
At Va Craftsmen, a snall shop where I once worked, the carver nearly always sat. He was in his mid 70's...
Ray
edit:
The carver's bench at VaC was pretty tall, perhaps 6" taller than a common workbench, I suppose to accomodate a standing man, and had a correspondingly tall stool, for the sitdown carver, like a barstool. I do my carving at my regular height (about 36") bench, standing or sitting. But I'm not carving day in and day out all yr long.
Edited 10/22/2009 1:59 pm ET by joinerswork
Ray & Jim,
So you folks do a bit of both depending on what you're carving. It sounds like being able to rotate the piece wouldn't work too well?
Just curious as to whether making the benchtop so it can be rotated would be of benefit as opposed to moving around which would mean standing. Being able to stand is more than to gain leverage but also positioning, eh?
the carver nearly always sat. He was in his mid 70's...
Ahah, you get my drift! :-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 10/22/2009 10:01 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
I've learnt to come at the work with the chisel from different angles, without moving the object (drawer fronts legs, chair parts), which is generally clamped in the vice or to the benchtop. Chip carving, small objects which to my mind is akin to engraving or scrimshaw, sometimes the work is held in my lap, or clasped to my chest, and presented to the knife as needed.
Ray
I sit when I chip carve, but when I attended a carving school run by a Greek master carver last year all the benches were designed for the carver to be standing. I found that I could get more leverage standing, but it's tiring to stand for 8 hours a day. At home I sit when I can and stand when I need to.
Jim
Easy, you need a hydraulic bench that lifts, lowers, spins, tilts and can be left and/or right handed with great light. A modified dentists chair is perfect, even comes with a Fordham tool.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Bob,
When power carving, I always stand and move around the piece, working from all sides, and high and low angles.
When whittling, I sometimes sit, but just as often walk. Especially when in public spaces. That way, I don't create a pile of chips, but rather distribute them more evenly. Like over five blocks or so. I like walking. Just as long as I remember to look up every so often.
I have always done chip carving sitting down.
When doing reliefs, I think that whether you sit or stand would depend on several factors. If you use a mallet you can sit down if your bench is at a suitable height. I don't generally use a mallet, but instead drive the gouge (especially for heavy cuts) held in both hands, with my right at the end of the handle and against my chest and my left lower on the tool, resting on the wood as well. The forwards force is applied by the combination of both arms and my chest, very similar to how carpenters used to drive chisels using their shoulders. For this, of course, I need to be standing.
I carve at my regular woodwork bench with the work held in my wonderful Tucker vise. The height is okay (32"?), but I wouldn't mind it being a little lower for this type of work.
and www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I'm very interested in this thread as well. My knees and hips are pretty much shot, and I'm doing more carving, because I can do it while sitting. I'm just beginning to plan a bench I can sit at, probably with the seat built in. I'm thinking about an inclined work surface to position the carving at the right height to approach the piece. Maybe an adjustable height and angle to suit different types and sizes of carvings. If anyone has gone through this process, I'd be glad to hear of it.
Jack,
Yep, that's what I've been thinking too.
What is a comfortable height? I have been carving at my workbench (32" height) and while that is comfortable for planing (for me anyway). I'm always hunched over when carving and the back doesn't take kindly to that for long.
Whilst sitting I should think it would be comfortable at perhaps just above lap height. Better yet make the benchtop height adjustable and possibly the seat too?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 10/23/2009 10:33 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Jack,
I saw a neat carving "bench" for use in a sitting position. It has four legs and is about the height of ####Shavehorse. You can see a photo of a shave horse at:
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=538But instead of having the shavehorse's clamp, it has a carving vice. You can see a photo of such portable carving vice at the following two sites:http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2004877/2004877.aspxhttp://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=31172&cat=1,41659You just attach the carving vice where the shavehorse's clamp would be. I work part time at Woodcraft so I saw their carving vice and bought it. It works fine. The Lee Valley vice looks good too, but I don't think the rod for holding the carving is as long on the Lee Valley one. You can look at the specs for both and see which is more appropriate for the size and type of carvings you make.There is another way to go. In a book on workbench's I saw an old photo of Lee Grindinger carving mouldings as a Lee Valley. I believe he was sitting while using it. You can see the workbench at:http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=31153&cat=1,41637I drool when I see this bench. You can get it with or without the cast iron base. If you want to use it in a sitting position, I would recommend getting it without the base, and making a shorter base. THIS IS A REALLY COOL CARVING BENCH. You can adjust the angle of the top and it has plenty of ways to clamp your work.You could make something like the Lee Valley bench, but you might not save much money. NOW FOR THE FUN STUFF.If you want to carve in a sitting position, think about "power carving". The Foredom is a GREAT flexible shaft tool that takes small burrs which carve like greased lightning. If you haven't tried power carving, and you have some physical problems, then you are in for a real treat.There are other flex shaft power carving tools, such as the WECHEER that Woodcraft sells. I don't know the quality of that system, but the Foredom is a well known carving system which is of high quality.Hope you find some interesting ideas here. If you have any questions, please let me know.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
In reviewing this thread I realized that I made a similar carved box about 6 years ago. I chip carved the top, front, sides and back separately and then assembled them. I do almost all of my chip carving on my lap. I find that I can get good leverage this way. Hope this helps.
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
Sorry about the picture size. Here it is again.
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
Jim,
Oooooo, nice!
Do you do the edge treatments after the carving? Hope you don't mind but I borrowed a copy of your pic.
I'd really like to make some of these this winter during Carving Season.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
You're welcome to the picture. Let me know if you want me to take some better ones and I'll send them to you. Actually, I cut the edging profile into a separate piece of wood and then ripped it to width...around 3/4". Then I mitered it to fit around the top and the bottom and glued it in place.
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
Jim,
Hinged or lift off top? Kin I git a peek at the hinges and mebbe some pointers? I realize I'm straying off topic so I'll email you with further questions.
It sounds like the benchtop could be sized for the type of work that you do? I don't want to be hamstung to my workbench, thinking portable. I had thought of replacing the head on a shavehorse several years ago here in Knots but am finding there's a bit more to it than simply substituting the horses, uh head.
Mel: You just attach the carving vice where the shavehorse's clamp would be.
Close, but ye need to deal with the treadle don't furgit.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 10/25/2009 8:53 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
Here are some better pictures. I mortised a pair of hinges into the top and the back of the box. There is enough overhang on the lid so that it can be easily opened with your thumbs. The top overhangs on the back (and sides) as well, but I allowed for the extra distance when I positioned the hinges. This way the lid opens about 100 degrees and then the back prevents it from opening further. Let me know if you need any more information.
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
Jim,
Thank you very much.
Very nice job on that and your work on your WEBsite is beautiful. Hinges on small boxes have always been an issue with me. Guess I need a lot more practice.
Starting tomorrow I'll be in the woodshop for the rest of the week. Gotta get the new bench made before it snows! I don't wanna here about walking around in shorts, etc. :-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks for the kind words. Send me a picture of your box when you're done with it. Gotta put my shorts on and get working.
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
Jim,
Nice chip carving. I have long wondered if you are Wayne Barton. Now I know you are.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks, Mel. Wayne is the master. http://www.jimreedy.com
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