O.K.
I’ve tuned up my handplanes. Sharp as I sometimes imagine my wit to be. I can plane shavings that you can read the newspaper across the room through. I can free-hand trim end-grain.
However, when I pony up any of my planes to my (by the book) shooting board and attempt to trim the end grain of anything – whilst on the shooting board – what happens is a resounding “clunk” when the plane blade reaches the end grain. That’s it – just “clunk”. Plane stops dead, end of story.
If I reduce the blade extension to nearly zero – I get a nice “zik” – but no wood removed. Advance the blade barely past that point – “clunk”.
So, based on that highly descriptive description – what is going wrong? Why, oh, why can’t I trim a board on the shooting board?
Lost in Louisville, I remain your humble servant
Mike D
P.S. I have a well fettled (but dreadful) 60’s vintage Stanley #4 that does work in the normal way, an equally well fettled Stanley block plane (not dreadful – love the little bugger) that also works quite well in the normal way, and a BUS which can’t be used on a shooting board due to it’s odd construction, but which works SPLENDIDLY in the normal way.
Why?
Replies
I'm no expert on the matter, but have experienced the same phenomenon...usually it was because the piece I was trying to trim was exended too far out so that the toe of the plane hit the piece and prevented the blade from doing its job...you may also need a heavier plane. Before I got a Marcou miter plane (3 days ago) I used a LV BU jack plane..I can't imagine a lighter plane would be very effective but given my experience on Knots, I'm sure someone out there uses a Stanley #1 with more efficiency than all of the rest of us combined...
Neil
I'd recommend a low angle plane with some mass. I use the LV BU jack, that works quite well, you can use a #9 or the LN equivalent. The plane should have some heft, and since you are generally shooting end grain, a low angle works well.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Mike,
It sounds to me like you've got your plane tuned up as well as possible - a sharp blade set to take a super-fine cut. First, I would check the obvious. Make sure that no parts of the plane (tote, toe, frog, etc) are bumping against something. If everything is clear, try using a little more momentum. This, I would speculate, would solve your clunk.
When I shoot, I start the plane with the toe on the endgrain of the board being shot. I take a stroke with the plane in my right hand (I'm a righty), following through until the blade is past the board and into the backer board. Then I pull the plane back along the same path to the starting position while simultaniously using my left hand to advance the workpiece. By not pulling the toe past the workpiece, I eliminate any chance of dinging the workpiece by striking it with the front of the plane. An entire stroke from starting position and back takes about a second.
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
there are 3 things that cause this evil 'clunk' one is the fettling (sounds like you have that well in hand)two, is the mass of the plane, my record 07 works much better that my 04 even with blades of equal sharpness. three is the tendency of the blade to pull the wood "up"into the opening before the following sole can contact it. its only a movement of a hundredth of an inch or so but when your trying to pull a shaving of only 2 or 3 thous its a big deal.
Kirbyite, could you tell me what fettling is. I am having the same problem as Mike D. I have not done any tune-up to my plane except for sharpening. The plane is a newish LV LA jack plane. Thanks / Al
Fettling means tuning a plane. For a new plane from LV or LN, you should not need to do more than honing the iron. You may also want to put a secondary bevel on the edge. For shooting that should be enough. If you are using the plane for more than shooting, gently cambering the iron (curving the cutting edge at the corners) will avoid gouging stock with the edges.For an older plane, more will be required. I have a #5 Bailey, ca 1888. In addition to regrinding, sharpening, honing and cambering the blade, I reground the edge of the chip breaker. I flattened the sole, and checked for square at the sides. I removed the frog and using a Japanese file, lightly filed the mouth to remove burrs. I reseated and adjusted the frog for an opening suitable to the cut I wanted to take. I then reassembled the parts, and coated with a light rub of Camellia oil. The entire process took 2-3 hours, mostly because the sole needed a fair amount of lapping to become dead flat. Since the plane cost me ~$30, and I use it frequently, it was a good use of time.GlauconIf you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 3/6/2008 8:53 am ET by Glaucon
Thank you very much Glaucon. That was helpful. / Al
Al,
Also, if you want to find a bunch of info. just do a search here or on Google: fettle plane. You'll be buried in good information. Glaucon is spot on.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks Bob / Al
A middling-fettled plane will still be capable of taking a fine shaving from softer face grain. However, that same plane will chatter on hard end grain.
I have been restoring and tuning up a Stanley #51 (which is used on the #52 shooting board). This plane came with a frog that was bust and re-welded, but the angle at which it was welded was off by a couple of degrees. As a result the blade was not supported well between the mouth and the bed of the frog. In action it did the same "slamming" as you describe. It did this as well on one of my wooden shooting boards. By contrast, when I used a properly fettled plane on the wooden board, the result was smooth end grain planing. As I increased the degree of support for the blade, so the slamming decreased. Eventually, with a fully supported blade, the slamming disappeared.
The other possible problem is a lack of coplanerness (is there such a word?) between the toe, mouth, heel of the plane. If the sole is concave (have I that right? - higher at the mouth), then the blade will need to be extended slightly further. This will lead to an unsupported edge, which will lack rigidity .. causing chatter.
Bottom line. I think that your plane is not fettled as well as you think, and not as well as needed for a shooting board.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Coplanarity, is the correct word. But youhave to be a serious math geek to know that.
Have you tried end-grain planing the same board while held the "normal" way in a vise? That should give you some idea of how well the planes are set up.
One thing to watch out for is to ensure that the ledge the plane is riding against is deep enough that the workpiece is fully engaging with the blade. If the ledge is too shallow, the bottom end of the blade will be above the surface that the workpiece is laying on, and so the bottom edge of the workpiece won't be cut. That's a sure-fire recipe for a clunk.
Also, some woods don't seem to like to be end-planed. African blackwood and cocobolo are both hard, dense tropical woods. African blackwood end-planes beautifully; cocobolo not so much.
-Steve
Thanks for the replies!
I think that the problem is that my plane is "not fettled as well as I think". Even though the bottom is flat, and the frog is set back so that the blade as supported as it can be, this is an old cheapy '60s Stanley that is "no Scottish". I'm pretty sure that the thin blade deflects anyway which is the reason for the "thunk". Being a descended 1/2 Scot (Roberts) myself, I still can't bring myself to dispose of said plane.
In answer to another question, yep, both planes work well on end grain when the board is held in a vice - but then, I can put in an angled, slicing motion that seems to make all the difference when I'm working free-hand.
I wish my LV BUS had square sides - it's 3/16th thick blade would surely do the trick!
I've got a bid in at ebay for an old #6 - perhaps I'll get lucky and win it. If I do, I'll put in a hock blade and breaker and see if that fixes the problem.
Best Regards,
Mike D
A shooting board with a tapered base will allow the plane to make a skewed cut instead of a perpendicular cut. This is like feeding a board into a power planer slightly diagonal. I also put a tapered auxillary fence on my jointer's fence to achieve a skewed cut. All these tricks are a poor man's solution to an expensive spiral cutterhead. Works for me.
I like both of those ideas. Thanks
Mike D
While it is like feeding a board into a power planer on the diagonal, it's not the same as skewing a handplane. What matters when skewing a handplane is that the cutting edge is at an angle to the direction of motion of the plane. That's what sets up the geometry for both a shearing cut and a reducing cutting angle.
With both a tapered-base shooting board and the planer, the cutting edge is not angled with respect to the direction of motion, so there is no shear and no change in cutting angle.
-Steve
Hi Steve,
I don't understand your post.
What is the difference? Skew the plane and feed parallel to grain OR skew the workpiece grain and feed straight ahead. The blade still shears instead of attacking the grain perpendicular.
I do understand the concept of reducing the cutting angle.
Thanks,
Don
Perhaps some illustrations will help. First, here is what happens when you skew a handplane. The direction of motion of the plane is not perpendicular (normal) to the cutting edge. This is the definition of a shearing cut:
View ImageNow here is what happens when you skew the workpiece, such as by feeding the wood into a planer at an angle. Here, the direction of motion of the blade remains perpendicular to the cutting edge. While the cut is at an angle with respect to the grain of the board, it is not a shearing cut.
View Image
As an experiment, take a handplane to a board. First, set the plane down the typical way, with the body of the plane aligned with the grain of the board. Now rotate the body of the plane by about 30°, and take a cut parallel to the long grain of the board. As noted above, this is a shearing cut. Now, without changing the orientation of the plane, take a straight cut (that is, in the direction of the plane body). This cut will cross the surface of the board at 30° with respect to the grain.
The results of the two cuts are completely different.
-Steve
A classic example of a post that will only be produced while on the clock, during hours at work and not at home.
I was trying to think how I could describe what you were stating in the previous post but could not come up with anything that would make sense. Nice pictures.
I am at home. Of course, that's where I work, too.... I was waiting for a performance test on some software to finish running.
And it's my personal copy of CorelDRAW that I used to draw the pictures.
-Steve
Thanks Steve,
I fully understand now. It can't be called a shearing cut. What would be an appropriate name for this cut. Perhaps just a diagonal cut? Anyhow, whenever I run stock thru the planer at an angle or use my tapered auxillary jointer fence or use the tapered base shooting board, I get better results than perpendicular feed.
One of these days I have to invest is a low angle plane with a skewed blade. I'm curious to see how it would perform on a tapered base shooting board. I suspect it would benefit form both shearing and diagonal cut.
What do you think?
Nice drawings in your informative post.
From past readings in magazines I understand also about the reduced cutting angle when a conventional/perpendicular plane pushed at an angle to the grain.
By the way, have you ever ground a back bevel on planer knives to use in fancy hardwoods? I just read an old article about this and it sounds interesting. The author,David Marks, sent his knives to Forrest blade company for the regrind. But from the drawing in the article it seemed fairly easy to do.
The article was American Woodworker Feb. 1996 in the Question and Answer section page 12 for anyone interested.
The back bevel changed the effective sutting angle from 50 degrees to 20.
I think it's normally just called a "cross-grain" cut. The reason it works well in the planer is that there is a reduced tendency to lift the fibers out of the wood (i.e., tearout). Instead, the fibers are torn off. The net result is that while there is more roughness on a fine scale, you don't lose big chunks out of the board.
It works with hand planing, too. It's a good way to work when you're trying to remove lots of material. I go straight across the grain when I want to hog off a lot of wood, then at 45° in both directions to smooth and flatten, and then finally a very fine cut along the grain.
A skewed blade would likely help when planing end grain on a shooting board. It probably doesn't make as much difference with long grain. I don't think tapering the base would have much effect in either case. (In principle, it would have zero effect when planing end grain.)
I have not yet ground a back bevel on my planer knives. So far, I have been fortunate enough that even the gnarliest woods have succumbed to the wet-the-wood-first technique. I have tried a back bevel on a hand plane, with mixed results. The cut was better, but my arms told my brain that they were going on strike if they had to keep doing that. ;-)
-Steve
A skewed blade would likely help when planing end grain on a shooting board. It probably doesn't make as much difference with long grain. I don't think tapering the base would have much effect in either case. (In principle, it would have zero effect when planing end grain.)
Hi Steve
Being the owner and user of three shooting boards, one flat and one ramped - both used with a LV LA Jack, and one with a skewed blade - a Stanley #51/52, I can offer the following observations in regard to shooting endgrain:
The ramped board (with a straight blade) does not offer a "real" skew (it is too low for that), but it has a less jarring action than the straight blade on a flat board.
A low cutting angle rules! A staright low cutting angle (LA Jack) provides a smoother cut that a highish cutting angle on a skewed blade (Stanley #51). A low cutting angle is less jarring than a high cutting angle (HNT Gordon trying plane).
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Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 3/5/2008 2:25 am ET by derekcohen
"The ramped board (with a straight blade) does not offer a 'real' skew (it is too low for that), but it has a less jarring action than the straight blade on a flat board."
That's a very good point: While the overall quality of the cut itself is not materially affected, the "clunk" that occurs when you hit the leading edge of the workpiece is spread out instead of happening all at once, and is therefore much reduced.
"A low cutting angle rules!"
Absolutely! Running a high-angle blade across end grain creates a musical instrument akin to fingernails on a blackboard, but it doesn't do much in the way of cutting.
-Steve
The initial thunk will be reduced since you're only hitting a corner and the cross-sectional area of wood being sliced is less, but once you enter the cut proper the cross-sectional area will be greater with a skewed blade or plane held askew than with a normal setup. So the thunk will be less, but the overall effort will be more.A question: since planing end grain like this concentrates the initial thunk (is this becoming a word?) over a very small point (e.g. the corner of the board) there should be a greater tendency to notch the blade with this approach. Have you noticed this to be true?
---Pedro
However, when I pony up any of my planes to my (by the book) shooting board and attempt to trim the end grain of anything - whilst on the shooting board - what happens is a resounding "clunk" when the plane blade reaches the end grain. That's it - just "clunk". Plane stops dead, end of story.
I'd say you need to lift weights in whatever arm you use! Why I use power tools.. Alot less frustration doing these things!
Hi WillGeorge,
Problem is, with my surly thin bladed 45 degree Stanley, pushing harder simply results in a more impressive thunk. Slam it sufficiently hard, and the thunk results in tearout - in end grain, no less!
I'm convinced that the real reason is .... a) my high-angle plane with it's thin, poorly supported blade is not up to the job, and.....b) I haven't learned how to do it yet.
When I break down and purchase a LV Low Angle Jack, I'll get back to you regarding whether it solves the problem.
Mike D
I think we're missing the point here. When shooting end grain the plane should be set for a .002 or so shaving. If your plane goes "thunk" on a 2 thou shaving, you need to sharpen.
Dick
The blade will easily shave the hair on my arm. It will either make dust or it will thunk. No in between. Clearly another problem exists. In all likelihood, the problem is that I have an early 1970's era hardware store Stanley #4, plastic tote and knob, pot metal frog (really), sheet metal blade and cap, that I should throw away. It has recently been reconfigured into a scrub plane, which task it performs somewhat adequately. When I can afford a decent LV LA Jack, this problem will have resolved itself.
Mike D
P.S. Sorry for the surly tone - I'm a bit surly tonight.
Surly Mike,
Tell me something: Does it thunk without a piece of wood on the fence? Without a piece of wood in the shooting board does it thunk when the plane meets the fence? Also, when doing this are there shavings/dust on the shooting board after taking a pass or three?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"Does it thunk without a piece of wood on the fence?"
ARRRR! I haven't tried that. I'll give it a try and let you know.
But really! It's now my contention that I DON'T HAVE THE PLANE THAT I NEED FOR THIS OPERATION!!! I NeeEEED aother PLANE!!!! i JUST can't DO this WITHout ANother PLANE!!
(Was that pathethic enough or what?)
:)
Much less surly this afternoon.
Mike D
Edit: Actually, I think that a nice new LV LA jack (and I can use the 38 and 50 degree blades that came with my LV BUS), and maybe a small LV LA Block plane with the large tote and knob, and, and, and the A2 38 degree extra blade, and... well, yes, ... that would make me feel better.
Edited 3/8/2008 1:36 pm ET by Mike_D
We've had enough of your whining. Buy the damn plane. ;-)
-Steve
Waah
Whatsa matter? Mikey wants his mommy? Awwwwww....
Here. Go play with these really, really sharp chisels. Careful, don't stick one up your nose.
-Steve
Mike,
Gawd I'm bleeding from laughing!
A planeaholic hisself,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
(Was that pathethic enough or what?)NO! NO! NO! Not that pathetic! You should have posted that with a picture of the NEW plane you bought!
You know, Mike, I was having a similar problem last fall and purchased a LV LA Jack. As far as I know I still have the problem. I have been wanting to spend a day trying to figure it out but have been to busy on projects. My point is that as nice as the LA Jack is, I believe that there is also some element of skill or set-up that I am currently lacking. It seems that you and I are in the same position except that I am $200 poorer/ Al
Hi Al,
Skill? Skill? NOT a new plane? (whimper). Then I'm surely doomed :(
It is good to know, however, that I'm not the only one having this problem, altho' mine seems somewhat severe.... (Thunk! . . . Is that my THUMB back there on the hand plane?).
Anyway, I don't have the $200 right now, anyway. Maybe Derek will address the skill thingy by posting a video of how to use a shooting board???? :) :) Derek? Derek??? :)
Regards,
Mike D
I guess I'm confused. A shooting board is surely one of the simplest jigs in the arsenal. It has one moving part. It's hard to imagine it being baffling to troubleshoot. Are you able to shoot at all? Have you tried smaller stock to assess its accuracy? I'm wondering how much of your problem is real, and how much is tongue-in-cheek.GlauconIf you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 3/9/2008 3:27 pm ET by Glaucon
Hi Glaucon and mwenz,
Glaucon, The thread started seriously enough. I really can't seem to master this seemingly simplest of tasks. I agree that this should NOT be rocket science - somehow it has eluded me with the two planes that I currently have. (a #4 and a block plane)
To mwenz, I added sandpaper to the board and started with the plane blade on the piece to be shot with very slightly better results. My test piece is maple, by the way.
Then, I took down my LV BUS (with the coffin shape) and, ignoring the fact that the angle would be off, proceeded with that plane with it's 25 degree blade. Voila! Shavings! With the exception that it's not at 90 degrees to the piece, it works like a charm.
Which leads me to the conclusion that I somehow don't have either of my Stanleys sufficiently well set up to do this particular operation.
I have researched fettling and have fettled to my little obsessive/compulsive engineer's heart's content. This took them from not working as planes to working pretty well on long grain, and the block plane is a charmer on end grain when held free-hand. Additional fettling will not be constructive at this point.
When next the wood show comes to Louisville, I'll see if I can test a LV LA Jack on a shooting board. I'm hoping that it will.
Thanks to all for your kind suggestions.
Very best regards,
Mike D
Good on ya for not giving up, Mike.
Something like Pine will show up bad sharpening faster than closed-grain woods like Maple. Hardwoods like Oak shoot very well. But Pine? Takes a good sharp blade.
But it does sound like the plane is in some way not operating well. My long-distance guess is the bedding of the blade. Not tight enough, not making good contact and or the blade itself (assuming a given degree of sharpness). But it's not worth hassling over a plane that isn't functioning well (unless that's your thing).
Take your shooting board and a piece of the same wood into a Woodcraft and try a LN LA jack. Regardless of purchasing a LN or LV version, it will be eye-opening. If it works and you want instant gratification, buy the LN right then and there (assuming the funds are available). If not and you want the LV, order on-line when you get home. Either plane will serve you as well as the other.
Take care--and best to you.
Mike
It is possible that the piece of stuff being shot is creeping into the plane slightly upon impact. You can temporarily afix some abrasive paper against the stop's face. Use some higher grit paper, like 320 or 400 and use a very light coat of spray adhesive to mount it. If you use lower grits, it is difficult to advance the stuff into the cut as is often required to get it square (or whatever angle desired).
Also, fwiw, try shooting at a slow and deliberate pace. You should be able to place the plane up against the edge of the stuff being shot and push through the cut. If you cannot do this (and the piece isn't creeping into the plane) then the iron isn't sharp enough or the plane isn't set correctly or whatever (shoot board not right, iron advanced too far etc.).
Back to work. Take care, Mike
The "clunk" coomes from a blade that projects too deeply for a fine cut. There are a number of reasons why this could occur:
The obvious is where too much projection is given to a blade (too deep a cut). Just back off the blade.
The other obvious cause is where the board is pushed too far across the fence into the blade. It may do this inadvertantly. Try sandpaper on the fence.
There are other less obvious causes.
The one is that the plane has a sole that is not coplanar (i.e.toe-mouth-heel aligned). When the mouth is lower than the toe, the blade ends up being extended further to make a cut.
Another is when the bed/mouth are not aligned and the blade is poorly supported. The blade vibrates and this leads to chatter on end grain - not so much one large clunk as a series of small clunks (should that be clunkettes?).
Note that planing face grain is MUCH easier and many of these problems may not be evident then.
I have an article in the works - almost completed - about setting up and using a shooting board.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Derek,
When you design your shootin bd, use something slippery for the side of the plane to slide on. I like the quietness of mine. I used the white solid stuff called ???? high molecular something/thingy.
For my old shootin bd I used formica and it was a irritating noise.
I also have some real wide slippery tape that I bought at Woodcraft. It was sold for table saw fences. This would have worked too.
Lookin forward to your article.
Don
Hi Derek,
Thanks for your answer. I too look forward to your article.
Mike D
Hi Bob,
"Does it thunk without a piece of wood on the fence?" - No, the base extends above the rabbit sufficiently that the blade came into contact with the base the first time that I used it, but that is along long grain, and the plane blade just made a nice, narrow shaving, establishing clearance for the blade on that first cut.
"Without a piece of wood in the shooting board does it thunk when the plane meets the fence?" - I think that the answer would be "probably", but with all the activity that the shooting board has had, the fence is no longer truly flush with the edge that you slide the base of the plane along. So, no thunk, 'cause it doesn't hit the stop. Looking at my shooting board, the horizontal ledge that the plane lies on is only about an inch and a half. That may not be enough for stable operation of the plane. When I rebuild, I'll look at Derek's examples a little more carefully, and possibly widen the ledge.
"Also, when doing this are there shavings/dust on the shooting board after taking a pass or three?"- There's dust if I set the blade shallow enough. And not much of that. If I advance any further to achieve an actual cut, the blade catches, and - thunk.
I've also sharpened the blade again, just to be sure that sharpness isn't the issue. It's sharp, and takes nice thin shavings on long grain.
Since I can't afford a new plane just yet, I may play around with working something out to allow me to use the LV BUS in an experiment on the shooting board. That coffin shaped side will make that a challenge, however, it's not really suitable for use on the shooting board.
Anyway, we've about beaten this thread to death!
Regards,
Mike D
Mike,
I borrowed Dereks ramped design and the ledge is about 4" wide on mine.
OK, I'll go back to sleep now, after I stop laughing at your other post. That is one post that I must add to my Best of Knots, soon to be a bestseller at Barnes & Nobile. :>)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/8/2008 9:58 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
I can get a clunk with a freshly sharpened blade and a very light cut, one that gives me a near-transparent shaving on end grain when planing the "normal" way. It's more about geometry and momentum and gravity than the sharpness and adjustment of the blade.
-Steve
If it goes "thunk" make sure you're not trying to take too thick of a shaving! Use of a shooting board implies the thinnest of shavings to "sneak up" on a fit!
T.Z.
Edited 3/7/2008 8:56 pm ET by Tony Z
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