So I made a shooting board. I have a #5 jack plane groz. not a Cadillac by any means but it has severed me well and I thought it might work for a shooting board. <!—-> <!—-><!—->
It’s not working so great. Can’t cut end grain with it very well. My guess is I need a much lower angle.<!—-> <!—->
Would this be the consensus? lower angle or some sort? anybody have any suggestions for shooting board dedicated plane. Mostly for cutting end grain.<!—-><!—->
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Replies
Low angle, bevel up planes are the best for shooting end grain, bevels and angles. Patrick Leach just happens to have the perfect pair of shooting board planes for sale. They are less than $5000. Unfortunately, miter planes are rather rare and expensive. You can always use a low angle block plane, until your ship comes in.
http://www.supertool.com/forsale/f2.jpg
Ah ya that is beyond crazy. You need to adjust your medication if you buy a $5000 plane. <!----><!----><!---->
Naw, crazy is paying somebody 22 million a year to run your company into the ground and then send him unprepared to Congress begging for a handout and refusing to take a paycut...he could spend $10,000 on a plane and not miss a beat...
Neil
just smile and wave
Obviously, those planes are very rare collectibles. Just as some collect fine art, hot rods, porcelain or baseball cards, there are those that collect fine tools. Those planes, however, are examples of the ultimate shooting board planes. Price aside, the low angle and skewed blade are for surgical slicing. They make me want to venture into plane making but the truth is, I wouldn't have much use for them. A new Holtey smoother would cost more than that pair and I think he sells a few.Shooting boards are fun contraptions to use. They are especially useful if you are cutting miters with a hand saw. The reality of my woodworking is that things aren't always perfect. An accurate 45 is a great thing in theory but in real life applications, it may need a little tweaking, once in a while. A low angle block plane is an inexpensive tool that works well for such situations. It can be used on a shooting board and it can be used just by hand. I'm grabbing one of mine all the time, for many things.I have a pretty good pic of a recent project where I used the trusty block plane. You can see the plane cut. That piece just needed a slight undercut to make the face tighter. I find the low angle block planes to be one of the more important tools in my shop, hand or machine work.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I have to say I like hearing your practical solutions. Sometimes I get the impression others work always turns out perfectly every time.
Thanks
Brad
Sleepydad,
You can buy a new, high quality miter plane from Lie-Nielsen much cheaper than $5000. :-)
But, a super sharpened and honed #4, 5 or larger might work to a degree -- as long as the side is square to the bottom. It won't work as well, but it is better than nothing.
Alan - planesaw
Must be the season for shooting boards. This was an answer I gave to a similar question the other day on another forum:
*****
Try a thin projection on the iron. Plane against the edge of your shooting board. Advance the wood against the sole of the plane. Advance the plane so the blade is at the edge of the stock and simply with firm pressure, push the plane across the end grain.
If you cannot get a good end grain shaving it is only because of one or both of the following. Iron is set for too heavy a cut. Blade is not sharp enough.
Even an HNT Gordon will cleanly take an end grain shaving with a sharp iron. They are bedded much higher than the 45 degrees of your plane.
While I use to use various planes including a LN #9 (wonderful thing that it is) I now use a strike block plane (or miter plane) made by Phil Edwards (Philly Planes in the UK). He now has skewed versions, which is what my wife is ordering. These are bedded at about 38 degrees and are bevel down planes.
*****
However, seeing how you are using a Groz, I would also add that you need to make sure the frog and iron mate well to their respective surfaces and that the frog screws are tightened well. Any chatter induced by an ill mating frog or iron will be frustrating.
Take care, Mike
If I am too lazy to swap out my 50 degree blade for my 25 degree blade in my BU jack, I can do a respectable job shooting with it. The blade is sharp and set for a fine cut. The higher angle certainly doesn't make it any easier to make the cut, but for the size of shaving I'm taking off (gossamers) it makes little difference. For what it's worth, I'm working with Pacific Dogwood which is a little harder than Eastern maple. Also, mass has a lot to do with the smoothness of cut. It is much easier to shoot with my jack than a block plane.
If your Groz is well tuned up, I think you should be able to have similar results. A short cut (and surefire way) would be to invest in a low-angle plane.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
You may want to check out the "Matt's Basement Workshop" website. He has a video about making and using a shooting board.
I use a #7 with a standard pitch frog on my shooting board and have no problem at all. The mass of the larger plane makes it work even better. Just make sure it is very sharp.
I use the Lie-Nielsen Low Angle Jack Plane with the optional "Hot Dog" attachment. It works almost as well as their Mitre Plane which is much more expensive. You will have a plane well suited to other tasks beside a shooting board.
Ok so it sounds like I'll be sharpening the chop saw blade and forgetting about the shooting board thing (for now at least)<!----><!----><!---->
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Well it looked so cool. maybe someday when I have some extra time. Sounds like everybody has a slightly different technique and has spent some time perfecting theirs.
more of an exercise in perfecting hand plane tuning for end grain than anything else I guess.
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Don't get discouraged--I agree with Chris and others, a fancy plane isn't needed to shoot end grain. I've mainly been working with beech but some hard maple, too. No problems shooting end grain with standard #4, #5 or #7 planes (old Stanley jobbies) as long as they're sharp and I'm taking light cuts.
It takes a bit of practice at the start but if I can do it, I'm sure you can. For my 2 cents, Just make sure (1) the workpiece is well supported at the back to prevent blowout; and (2) make sure your blade clears the thin "ledge" your workpiece is sitting on. Back off your blade and ease it forward a 1/4 turn at a time until you just start to make shavings. A 1/2 turn after that and it might start to bite and grab quite a bit. Sounds like you're already most of the way there.
Cheers,
Pete
Ok so it sounds like I'll be sharpening the chop saw blade and forgetting about the shooting board thing (for now at least)
Don't ignore the shooting board. I'd like to see you take a poofteenth of an inch off the end of a board with a chop saw!
I have three articles on shooting boards on my website .. no waiting ..
All you wanted to know and were afraod to ask ..
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4.html
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Then a few advances in design ..
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Advances%20in%20a%20ramped%20shooting%20board.html
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/ShootingforPerfection.html
Hi Tony
A backbevel on a BD plane will increase the cutting angle. You really do not want that on a shooting board.
A backbevel on a BU plane will not alter the cutting angle and will decrease the clearance. You also do not want that.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
I saw those photos of your shooting board. You have the plane lying on its side!!!! Now I know why I was having trouble.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
actually I found and read your page while I was thinking about shooting. nice job.
it's more me learning to tune a plane. something that has frustrated me for years now.
Derek,I read your writeup entitled "Setting Up and Using a Shooting Board". It is the best article I have read on shooting boards, and I have read a lot of them. It answers the most commonly asked questions FAR better than other articles. The diagrams and photos clear up any potential misunderstandings. Your article has soul. It is that good.Nothing in this message is written with humor or with tongue in cheek, or with double entendre.I love to be surprised. I got a big surprise with your statement " these jigs are a means to an end, not the end in themselves". Those are very close to the ideas that I have been espousing concerning tools. I guess the difference is that you differentiate between fancy planes and home made jigs. To me both are just tools, and are not ends in themselves. I believe you ascribed this to a tool philosophy akin to that of the Professionals. I was very interested in your photo of the Stanley #246 Mitrebox. I have a Sears miter box that I bought back around 1969, and it looks very much like the #246. You wrote your article straight from the heart. It is your take on the basics of shooting boards. There is no reason why it shouldn't reflect your biases. In spite of the fact that I fully support that approach, I believe your article would have been even better if it didn't focus so much on LV planes, an obvious bias of yours. All in all, though, I would still review your article as one of the best basic woodworking articles I have ever read. Way way above the level of FWW articles on basic skills/tools.Keep publishing,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel
Many thanks for the kind words about the article. I wrote it with the newby in mind, or for the individual who wanted to improve their technique. I had written a few similar articles previously, and this one was really a composite of those.
I have always espoused that tools are a means to an end. It is just that tools can also be a joyful experience to use. These two factors are not mutually exclusive.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edit: PS ... this article was published in the FWW blog several months ago. There was a little fanfare about it at the time. Now I find it is no longer in the FWW archive. I assume that this is because I did not sign a form that gave exclusivity to FWW. How could I - the article already was on my website where I thought it would be more easily accessed by more interested woodworkers.
Edited 12/3/2008 10:38 pm ET by derekcohen
Derek,
"I have always espoused that tools are a means to an end. It is just that tools can also be a joyful experience to use. These two factors are not mutually exclusive."You wrote that but I believe it. A tool is by definition, a means toward an end. It is an extention of the user. That does not preclude enjoying the tool. Things are best when the tool is enjoyed and appreciated. I know there is still a difference between our approach to tools, and I thought I had it down, but it is elusive. It surely is a matter of degree, but I think even a bit more. I really think that you shouldn't notice a tool so much when you are using it. If I am thinking too much about not scratching the tool, or damaging it in some other way, or losing it, or whatever, it takes my mind off the reason I am using the tool. I believe that is IT. It is like a person who we say is "high maintenance". That person may be very nice in some ways, but you can't relax around them. It is like an old Jaguar. Beautiful car, but always in the shop. Lexus makes a great sports car, and it doesnt break down much. Now that's a nice tool. All analogies break down, but they are helping me define my ideas toward tools. As you can tell, I am a writer and a philosopher at heart. When I get my feelings nailed down better, I plan to write an essay on it "Mel's Manifesto on Tools", and I will nail it to the front door of the Woodcraft store nearest the Winchester Cathedral.There is the analogy of having antiques around the house. My house is filled with items that my brother and I have made and with "antiques", except not the antiques that Ray Pine refurbishes. I can't afford those. All of mine are from the late Victorian to the Art Deco era. I have restored all of them. My daughter and son in law have been married only five years, but they have a houseful of the things I have revfurbished. But if you visit my home or theirs, and I hope that is possible some day, you will see that nothing is roped off so you can't touch it. There is no feeling of a museum. You can put your drink or your feet on anything and kick back and relax. Focus on living, don't focus on not hurting the antiques. I have other friends whose houses are more like museums, and the furniture is "to look at and admire". FURNITURE IS TOOLS. If there is something about the furniture that keeps it from being fully and comfortably utilized, then it has failed to fulfill its function. There is a place for such stuff, and it is in museums.If I were a violinist, I would not be comfortable with a Strad. I would opt for an instrument that was almost as good, but one which would let me relax more in having it around the house, and it carrying it to my concerts. If while playing, I am thinking about the Strad rather than really nailing this concerto, the tool would have gotten in my way. Of course, I see that that problem is one that is in my mind, and thus should be "controllable", but some things are beyond my mental control. I see that cost plays a role in this (in my mind), but it is a secondary role until it gets past a threshhold. In my mind that is the difference between LN and LV. Actually, as you know better than I, there are other differences. LV is more innovative. But suppost that LV planes started selling on EBay for close to current retail, in good condition, regardless of age. In that case, you would see me advocating them the same way and for the same reason that I advocate LN now. I haven't got experience with LV planes, but from everything I hear from everyone I know that has them, their quality is on par with LN -- eg, they are in great shape right out of the box, with minor honing required, and they are easy to adjust and use, etc etc etc. Also, if I could get LV tools at Woodcraft at the same deal I can get LN for, my small collection of them (currently two) would probably be split among the two. I want you to know that I have nothing but admiration for the LV folks. You may have been thinking that I don't. Well that was fun for me. When I studied psychology at Penn State, I really enjoyed the Gestalt school. The idea of an issue sticking in my head because I didn't have it well organized yet, was very compelling. That is my current state on this issue of "the nature of woodworking tools", and conversations with you are enabling me to get closer to being able to really clear up my thinking and then it won't rattle around in my head so much. (even though it is a fun thing).Cheers,
Mel
PS - My message to you yesterday was written with one finger on my right hand completely numb. I got a shot for what is called "Trigger Finger" (related to carpal tunnel). Because it was difficult to type, I didn't really list all of the reasons that I thought your article was so good. You looked at the very essence of the shooting board, from a functionality point of view, from a use point of view, from a construction point of view, and from a historical point of view. One could only come away with the feeling that you just dove into to the waters and swam in them until you had the very essence of the Shooting Board clear in your head from a number of fronts. It was a joyful experience to read because I saw the joyful experience you had in putting it together. You couldn't pay someone to do that good a job. It could only come from an internal urge.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel
Have you read my review of the Krenov smoother? http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20James%20Krenov%20Smoother.html
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I love using this plane. Some probably would not do so because they would consider that it becomes devalued with use, that it should be protected under glass. I couldn't do that. It's a plane, to be used, and it would be an insult to the maker - Jim Krenov - if I did not use it as he believed it should be used.
Sometimes I wonder why he chose not to finish his planes. While they are comfortable - and mine works well after a minor adjustment to the wedge - it really looks like hell. It is special because Krenov made it, and I think of him when I use it. Still, it is just a plane and I do not pamper it.
I have many planes. Some are very expensive according to the standards of anyone, such as a Marcou, and others are expensive by your standards, such as LN and LV. None of them are pampered. They are just tools. They are beautiful tools, tools to inspire, to admire, to ponder over and disect - but still just tools. And in the end they are there to do a job.
I think that this is the difference between you and I. You think about the monetary value of tools and this influences your relationship with them. It appears to intimidate and preoccupy you.
Your descriptions of a vintage car and a vintage violin are more of the same. A Jaguar is beautiful but rejected for the boring but reliable Lexus. Where is the passion, man! Life is too short to treat objects like religeous icons. You seem to have a different attitude toward your furniture. What makes it possible to treat them more casually?
Gestalt psychology. I was, and remain, a student of Gestalt Psychology (not the Fritz Perls type - did I tell you that I discovered an original manuscript of his about 25 years ago, and two years ago sold it to an US university? That's a story for another time). Rather the gestalt of figure ground and its influence on multitasking - whether to be preoccupied by or be able to set aside an object. Tools are multi-dimensional - intellectual, emotional, tactile, functional, financial, etc - and it is possible, y'know, to set aside its material side.
OK, enough rambling. Time for bed (I'm sure everyone else is asleep!).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 12/5/2008 11:36 am ET by derekcohen
Derek,
I believe you have seen my block plane. A bit like Krenov's except I went for a fancy finish.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
So I don't understand this emphasis on the resale value of LN? Do you sell your tools on ebay often? I'm pretty careful about the tools I buy and have never wanted to sell one. If I don't like it when I get it I can return it within the first few months, so that's never been an issue either. I don't know, it seems to me like trade-in or resale value matters for cars which get traded in and resold, but not for other things. I never consider the resale value of my books, or CDs, or furniture. Why would I care about the resale value of my tools? I'd be interested to see a poll of how many folks have ever found this attribute of LN to be useful.
---Pedro
p.s. Incidentally, LV makes a wonderful product. Their planes work amazingly well.
Pedro,For any investment, short term, or long term or unknown term, the element of liquidity is a good thing, A VERY GOOD THING. Who wouldn't want liquidity. There are some planes that I am not sure if I want. Take the LN Skew block plane. It can rabbit on one side. I have read about the theoretical advantages, but the only way to find out if it is useful is to try it out for a year. If I know I can sell it at full retail any time I want, I am more likely to buy it. I bought a Rikon 14" bandsaw. A year later they came out with the Delux version which has a riser block built in. Mine can't even take a riser kit. I got it to replace my 30 year old Sears bandsaw, which was just like the new Rikon. BUT THEN I got interested in cutting my own veneers, and in making bowls out of green wood. Both require a large throat. There is NO market for my Rikon which has been used for a total of a few hours over a few years. So to get a band saw that I want, I have to take a licking on the Rikon. It is not a Liquid investment, as is a LN tool or a Pfeil carving gouge, which can be resold at almost retail.I don't sell many tools. I keep them either forever, until they die, which is rarely, but my band saw did die, and my needs/wants have increased. So what is wrong with my thinking?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Your thinking has been taken over by the accountant-meme. Here is one antidote to that awful mind-state:
When you tire of a tool or find no further use for it yo'sen, give it to someone else. (I mean "give" - no dollars, return-favours, strings or any other profit/loss accountancy involved). No boasting of your largesse to the priest, neither, as he is kidding you anyway about providing that pass up to the cloud (and also concernng his access to the lever for the trap-door to the furnace room).
In short, try treating the tool as a thing in itself and not a packet of dollars or an entry in your Great Book of Profit & Loss.
Try it with other stuff besides tools - it's very liberating, especially when accountant-infected blokes mutter, point and snicker at the fool "losing money". The fool meanwhile wonders where they lost their full-range human nature and how they became dollah-addicts, a drug for which many will do anything at all.
Lataxe, no businesman.
Lataxe, old buddy, old pal,
I do approve of your philosophy as regards gifting extraneous tools. I await receipt of any one of those multitude of brass and steel beauties you recently showed all lined up on your bench. I believe you already have my address.
Ray, appreciative of your largesse, in advance
P.S. you may keep the bench-- I already have one of those
Ray,
Remember, when Lataxe starts giving away his Marcous, I need them more than you do.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"I need them more than you do."
Please provide a minimum of two reasons for this. The information is required for statistical purposes relating to a marketing survey being undertaken by Saatchi & Saatchi and will not be shared under any circumstances. Thank you.Philip Marcou
Edited 12/6/2008 3:54 am by philip
Philip,
""I need them more than you do."
Please provide a minimum of two reasons for this. "I need the quality tools to partially make up for my humble skill level.Well, I am off (in a half hour, to spend nine hours with Rob Cosman. Spent four hours with him last evening at the Woodcraft store. I'll post more about this later. YOU WOULD REALLY ENJOY THIS GUY. He is the quintessential businessman. And he showed me the dovetail saw that he will soon have in production. It will knock the socks off everything else. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Is this a "Rob Cosman" brand saw? Interesting. I've tried a number of different saws and own a significant number in my collection of vintage and have a few modern.
I would find it hard to get a better saw than any decent saw sharpened by a guy not to far from you: Tom Law. Tom no longer sharpens, but he does sell re-conditioned saws from time to time.
I was asked on another forum not long ago, what makes Tom's sharpening so special? Is it the fleam, the rake or what? Don't know, because I don't really know anything about this technical crap that has no effect on what I build. All I know is that saws I have that have been sharpened by Tom start easy and cut like butter and feel well!
To emphasize the dumbheads on a lot of forums, there is also a guy, who was the recommended saw guy right after Tom retired (maybe 4 years ago now). His name still comes up as a great sharpener. This must be people who don't use their tools and simply repeat what they read on these forums. I removed the saw plate from a dovetail saw I wanted sharpened (to make it easier to mail) and sent it to him. He promptly returned it, saying he couldn't sharpen anything at 19PPI. This hinted to me that he didn't hard sharpen as he claimed, but rather used a machine. In the same package, I sent a tenon saw, also with the handle removed. He sharpened this one, but in reverse as a Japanese saw would be! I'm still amused at how some guys claim his sharpening is so good. Since that time, I have learned to sharpen my own saw, although not as good as the experts like Tom Law, Daryl Weir, Mike Wenzloff to name a few, but far better than the backwards guy.
We don't need anymore high end saw makers just yet. We need more guys who use their saws first.
T.Z.
Ray,
Well, you cannot have them Marcous as I need every one, for both practical and emotional reasons, as you very well know. Howiver, I have a dowelling jig, some goose-neck chisels and various other tried-for-a-while-but-found-a-better-way tools which you may have. Please call either tomorrow or Wednesday to collect them. Do not be unctious or hold your cap in your hand as it will offend my Fabian sensibilities.
There are also many books read once or twice so now redundant to the Lataxe mindscheme. These might be collected in an (also free) hessian coffee sack that I have no further use for. (It is almost certainly a desirable and chic item in itself).
Don't forgt also the oodles of free advice I have for you on many matters. This is probably the most valuable stuff, in an acountant's reckoning. (Information is power). But we have sent all them accountants to the Planet Zog with the hairstylists so that is a moot point).
Lataxe the generous.
Lataxe, O Beneficent One,
You are too too generous indeed. I'd love to take you up on your kind offer, especially the books,as I have ever been a bookworm. Alas, my schedule will not allow my coming to your humble cot this week, to take possession of those extraneous mind ticklers. A pity, since I suspect there may be one or two Ayn Rand tomes amongst them.
But perhaps it is for the best. Knowing your devious mind the way I have come to do, I would be more than a little ambivalent about setting foot in your book- shed; fearing I'd been lured there only to fall into one of them deadfall man-traps, or tiger pits (brought back from the dark continent by one o' your compatriots and lernt by yourself) of which I've already heard rumors.
On another, completely different note, I have shared dkellernc's experience with the ol' deflecting sawblade trick. My personal difficulties have been with trimming say the end of a mitered bracket foot. Wherein the blade is laid over to 45*, and a rather long cut of 5 or 6 inches is made. I've noticed that on occasion, the blade will want to take up a shimmy or shudder, if less than perfectly sharp, and the feed rate is too brisk. To your point about the force needed to deflect a non spinning steel plate, versus that of the amount and direction of feed force into the sawblade, I wonder if the forces involved with moving a gyroscope about don't become involved when the blade is in motion? That is, the force being manifested 90* to the line of effort. No doubt you have experienced the phemenon of stock creep when cutting a miter? If you have secured the stock so that it cannot creep away from the blade, no doubt that force is then put onto the blade, on the side where the cutting is taking place.
Ray
Ray,
I have experienced stock-creep when cutting a miter as you describe, when I've forgotten to lock the stop on the crosscut fence. But the operative word is "creep". There is no great sideways force from the cutting teeth and even the slightest grip of the workpiece agin' the crosscut fence prevents the creep. Whatever the force coming off the side of the teeth as they cut, it is very small and certainly insufficient to deflect the blade when that fence-stop is locked.
Perhaps that force is due to the pressure from the side of the teeth agin the already cut part of the workpiece end? The front edges of the teeth cut the workpiece first but then the side of the teeth just brush the cut as the workpiece is advance. If the movement of the crosscut table (or miter gauge, if that is being used) is not absolutely parallel to the blade but toed-in slighty towards the blade, this might cause a slight sideways force.
When there is such misalignment and a wide piece of blockboard or plywood is cut, the misalignment shows up when the cut side reaches the back teeth, which will cut another sliver off the already cut edge.
***
That Scheppach of mine has many fine adjusting gubbins so that one may get everything properly aligned to very fine tolerances, which also seem to stay that way even after extended use. The sliding table is parallel in its travel to the blade and so I seem to get very precise cuts with very little of that "creep" if I forget to tighten that crosscut fence stop ........ ?
Lataxe
"I confess that I'm puzzled as to why a blade should be deflected by a piece of wood being cross cut on one side only. The force of the blade's rotation is in line with its body. The force of the push on the wood into the blade is also in line with its body. Where does the force come from that pushes the blade to one side?"
Lataxe - the scientific explanation for this is quite basic - Ray has alluded to it in his last post with his comment about a gyroscope. With any rotating object, a counter-force in the direction opposing the rotation will induce a force normal (perpendicular) to the direction of rotation. So long as the force opposing the direction of the rotation is evenly distributed across the rotating face of the blade, then the force generated normal to the direction of rotation will also be evenly distributed to both sides of the blade (so you get a 90 degree cut, provided the blade was originally 90 degrees to the table).
If however, the cut doesn't extend completely across the face of the teeth, that force generated 90 degrees to the direction of rotation will only be on one side of the blade, thus deflecting it.
Theoretically, if the feed speed of the cut is slow enough, the force deflecting the blade will be low enough so that the blade doesn't appreciably deflect. In my experience, however, I've not been able to slow the feed rate sufficiently to satisfy my engineer's square's need for 90 angles. ;-)
David,
I am tempted to go and do experiments with various feed speeds and such, to see what can be determined. I will ready my engineers square. (Incidentally, I take it you prefer those all-metal squares to the wood, brass and steel ones? Me too as they come in all sizes and every one I have is properly square, according to the scribe-reverse-scribe test).
Here is another thought (perhaps worth testing): If a near blade width-worth (say 3mm) is taken off the end of a piece and this deflects the blade to cause some non-square, what happens if the piece is brought back and recut, this time to take off whatever the blade deflection left behind? Does the final sliver get taken or does the blade deflect again? I can feel a wee scientific experiment coming on. :-)
Lataxe
All,All of this talk about creep in cutting the miter in a bracket foot. What about a nice 20" chop saw with a 12" throw, and a laser? The job would require less than two seconds. With the right blade, the surface would be silky smooth. You might have to rough it up a bit on the disk sander just to get it to accept some glue. Tage Frid would have used his bow saw. But if you guys want to go the hand tool route, you gotta develop the necessary skills. Make the cut in the vertical plane. Do not grip the saw too tightly, and let gravity do the work. You grip the saw with the same pressure that you hold a baby's hand. Gentleness and finess are the secret to good hand tool work. But nothing beats a big chop saw. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Naa, Frid would have used the best way to get the job done, he was a businessman too. That's why he loved belt sanders.
Napie,
I wish I could have met Tage. I have read his stuff. Ya gotta like the guy. He was no-nonsense. That doesn't exist anymore. (Well, maybe in a few places).
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I did get to spend some time with him and my scrapers have been sharp and my work pragmatic ever since.
Long&tediousmessagewarning!
David & Ray,
This conversation we’ve been having about TS blade deflection when trimming plank ends with a cross cut has got my interest. At the risk of becoming tedious I decided to investigate further………….
I went out to the shed this evening to make a few test cuts so that I could examine them in detail for signs of TS blade deflection when cutting a sliver off one end of a plank. After your explanation of the gyroscopic forces that might indeed act to push a blade (or the wood) sideways during a cut, I wanted to see if my saw really did cut square all ‘round; or if I had been kidding myself and the blade was deflecting, however slightly, to leave an out-of-square end.
I did three main tests:
cut a 1” thick by 6” wide plank at 90 degrees;cut a 2” by 2” plank at 90 degrees;cut a 45 degree miter at 90 degrees on a 3 “ wide by 7/8” thick plank.
In making these cuts I began with some already thicknessed white oak planks that ended up surplus to requirements from previous projects. They were already square all ‘round as well as flat, evenly thick and with straight edges.
The TS was also checked to ensure that the blade was at 90 degrees to the table and that the sliding carriage was co-planar with the TS top as well as travelling parallel with the blade. The crosscut fence was also checked to ensure it was at 90 degrees (or 45 when set for miters) to the blade. All was as it should be. The 10 inch 42 ATB blade was extended fully above the table (just over 3” high).
***I began by cutting ½” off both ends of the three planks to ensure they were starting square.
I then cut 2mm (2/3rds the width of the blade’s 3.2mm teeth) off one end of the 1”X6” taking about 5 seconds to push the sliding table the 6 inches to complete the cut, after using the micro-adjustable stop to push the planks 2mm to the right from that last “cut-off-the-end” operation.
I tested the newly-cut end all around (both edges and both faces to the end) for deviations from square, using a 2”, a 4” and a 10” engineer’s square, just to make sure. I looked for light gaps against a spotlight I have in the shed. There were none at all. The cut ends came out very clean, incidentally, as the blade is one of those “for crosscutting hardwood” blades with the sides of the teeth hollow ground.
The operation was repeated with the 2X2 plank taking about 3 - 4 seconds for the cut. Same result.
The 3X7/8ths was cut at 45 degrees to the blade, in around 5 seconds, to make a mitre. The cut end was tested with the two smaller engineers squares and was exactly 90 degrees to the faces. My miter square also said exactly 45 degrees to both edges).
*****I then repeated the operations taking just 0.5mm off the cut ends of the first two planks by turning the micro-adjust on the crosscut fence by that amount. I part-cut the ends to leave an uncut section, with a small arced step showing where the blade had been advanced then stopped. The newly cut sections of the ends were still at 90 degrees and the arced step measured exactly 0.5mm deep all along its edge, with my all-metal vernier.
***** So, I can detect no deviation of the blade and consequent out-of-square of the cut ends when taking these small trimming cuts. However, I’m willing to do all these tests again and take close-up photos of the results, including the square against the ends and held up to the spotlight. I can also try cutting two similar boards and butting up their cut ends various ways ‘round, on a flat surface to see if there are wedge-shaped gaps anywhere between the two.
******The question still remains then: what is it about your TS that is allowing such cuts to deflect the blade? Assuming the wood being cut is itself not moving out of the intended cutting path, how can the apparently small gyroscopic sideways force from the blade get to be strong enough to bend the blade sufficiently to cause out of square in the cut? Perhaps the blades have a thin body? Perhaps there is insufficient clamping area at the arbour. Perhaps the whole arbour assembly is somehow moving on the gibbs? (I am guessing wildly).
Lataxe, doing experiments.
Lataxe, doing experiments.
Just me that performed a real experiment. I use my premium wood.
NOT those scrap leftovers. Everything changed!
Just funnin ya' a bit. However, I have found that trimming ends of 'sticks' with a 'thin-kerf' blade and a 'regular' blade are different.
Regular thickness blades win hands-down. (Yes, I have a old Optical comparator that was used for inspecting metal parts to a 'standard' part).
A Starett but it is much older than those shown in the link below. No digital stuff, Just has a few knobs you twist... AND a REALLY BRIGHT BULB!
http://www.msi-viking.com/optical_comparator/
I have a so called junk saw so your findings may be different!
I have enjoyed this post and all the thoughts. Hell, at my age, getting up in the morning is a wonderful experience!
Edited 12/8/2008 6:38 am by WillGeorge
Lataxe,
Well done!
I haven't the foggiest notion either, why sawcuts in your shop, er, shed, turn out differently than mine. I did point out that the biggest problem I've had in this dept is when the blade is laid over at 45*, and the stock pushed past it flat on the table, as in mitreing the end of a bracket foot.
Doubtless, your Euro saw is a Special One, compared to my old Unisaw. Perhaps as you allude, the issue is in some mis-alignment in the gubbins, whatever they are. Goblins more likely, is my guess, or maybe gremlins. As Will says, it happens more often on that irreplaceable molding cut from the last bit of curly bird'seye quilted grain spalted cherry.
As to the creep issue, it is not my experience at all that creep is easily overcome with hand pressure. I need a stop block, clamped to the fence.
On another note, I am suggesting that you keep this correspondence from the eyes of the Little Lady. She would doubtless have some rather pointed questions regarding your need for that Marcou low angle bevel-upper and its accompanying bubinga and rosewood shooting board, with the brass and steel micro-adjusters...
Ray
Ray,
I cannot tell a lie. That miter plane is used as a geet big heavy smoother and nivver on a shooting board, which is redundant because of my magic saw (which has nice German elves in it, who have ousted the goblins, gremlins, orcs and all them other troublemakers).
When I have a really big paroxym of Fabian-feelings and that Rand woman has gone dormant in my meme-space, I might send you a Scheppach for your birthday. However, don't be too anxious to accost the postman as my selfish gene is currenty quite dormant and therefore working hand-in-glove with the Rand memes. I even gave the cat a half measure of grub today. It is for his own good as he is becoming dependend on the hand-outs.
Lataxe, a spoilt kid.
"The question still remains then: what is it about your TS that is allowing such cuts to deflect the blade? Assuming the wood being cut is itself not moving out of the intended cutting path, how can the apparently small gyroscopic sideways force from the blade get to be strong enough to bend the blade sufficiently to cause out of square in the cut? Perhaps the blades have a thin body? Perhaps there is insufficient clamping area at the arbour. Perhaps the whole arbour assembly is somehow moving on the gibbs? (I am guessing wildly)."
Lataxe - I confess that I do not know what is causing this on my set-up, but it's not just me - many have experienced a similar issue in the local WW club. It doesn't, of course, matter that much to all but us accuracy freaks (and you know whom you are!) that demand an air-tight joint on a standing-miter box. What I can say for certain is that there is virtually no run-out or wobble at the arbor of the saw (checked with a highly accurate digital dial-caliber and alignment block). It there's any at all, it is beyond my capability to measure it - less than a ten-thousandths at 1" away from the arbor bearing. The miter slot is also very accurately milled - also not within my capabilities (nor my measurement tools) of detecting out-of-square between the miter slot and the front of the blade and the miter slot and the back of the blade.
I've experienced this with a couple of different blades - both standard-width (1/8" kerf). One's a Forrest WWII combination blade, one's one of those fancy Freud rip blades with the red teflon coating. Both blades can be deflected by hand pressure (noticeably - and with the saw turned off, of course). Both blades have laser-cut anti-vibration slots cut into the saw plate.
FWIW - I notice this the most when the blade is set at the height of the piece being cut - in other words, most of the blade is below the table, though it is still detectable with the blade in the fully raised position.
Moreover, regarding Mel's comment - this also occurs on my Dewalt 12" miter saw, particularly with thick, hard stock, such as 16/4 maple. The error is much more pronounced here - I'd guess it's 4 degrees or so off of square, end-grain measured against face grain.
I'd also say that this is really not that much of a concern to me, as I almost always shoot the end of my cross-cuts anyway, if for no other reason than to leave a very smooth surface that makes pencil and knife marks very visible. It is interesting in a geeky engineer's kind of way, though.
Lataxe,
" That miter plane is used as a geet big heavy smoother and nivver on a shooting board, which is redundant because of my magic saw"
That's the ticket. It's a good story. I believe I'd stick to it.
Please don't give in to those feelings of altruism. Lay low with your majikisch Sheppach, and keep those shiney brazen beauties under wraps. I heard elsewhere there's a movement afoot to re-distribute them. Purely for the greater good. You understand.
Ray
Ray,
In certain instances I become fully Randian. Indeed I was born thatta way and it is only the kindness of Nanny, with her rosehip syrup, school milk and innoculations agin' the pox that has convinced me to allow her to tuck me in at night; and to be nice to other folk now and then.
But when bad men came I always found myself reverting to the ape. Happily a rozzer took the badlads away before the brawl becomes fatal for either one of us. Also I am now too sensible to brawl and simply avoid the bad men, who all congregate in a certain pub where they may be bad to each other to their heart's content. I favour transportation of such fellows to the colonies, such as Kansas or Oklahoma, and have said so to the the beak.
As you know, Nanny took our armaments away some time ago, except for the pheasant-murderers and the feckless yoofs who had their welfare taken away instead, so immediately armed themselves and went out to do business. (Another successful Thatcher policy)! Happily they do it in the Big City, well away from the civilised borough of Galgatia, where we still have a bobby on a bicycle who is glad if someone parks a car wrong, about the only work he gets, as he is so effective at scaring naughty people into being good. He gives them a stern stare and waggles his finger, when he comes on them contemplating naughty, all silent-like without ringing his siren-bell.
Perhaps it is living in a civilised place bereft of cowboys and other bogeymen that makes me so full of altruistic feeling for you chaps over there in the badlands, being savaged by your own government not to mention the leeching secnd-raters that are said to be everywhere. (I mean the bankers, businessmen and other unacceptable faces of capitalism). Still, when you are Governor, it will all be different...... :-)
I have started up A Society For The Relief Of Deprived American Woodworkers" who will begin to send you all a Scheppach each when sufficient funds have come in (estimated date 2067). I am only taking a small amount out of the fund for administration fees and there is no connection with the plane-bill.
Lataxe, smugging it on the TS front.
Lataxe, my friend,I enjoyed your message. As I have always said, your mind is a wonderful place. You keep surprising me. That is hard to do. Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
All you wanted to know and were afraod to ask ..
Is a Blond better than a Red Head or a Ravin haired OR that Brunette!
Or that bald woman in some Science Fiction movie I saw way back when?
I'd like to see you take a poofteenth of an inch off the end of a board with a chop saw!
I can.. I put the old 'feeler gauges' Automotive type in between my STOP and my STICK and remove as necessary!..
"Ok so it sounds like I'll be sharpening the chop saw blade and forgetting about the shooting board thing (for now at least)"
You don't say what you're attempting to shoot. Just like anything else in the hand tool world (or the power tool world, to a lesser extent), practice is required to become proficient. Needless to say, there are some woods that are a heck of a lot easier to trim on a shooting board than others - maple is not a good species to start with.
Try something a little easier - a secondary wood like eastern white pine, poplar, basswood or something similar. Doing so will show you a couple of things critical to successful shooting - how sharp the iron is (beyond razor sharp is required), and how big of a bite you can take without stalling the plane. The soft woods I suggested will tear badly if your iron isn't sharp, so you get immediate feedback. They'll also allow you to take a much bigger bite than something harder, such as the afore-mentioned maple.
I think you'll find that the shaving has to be a lot thinner than you'd originally thought, and any defect in sharpening reveals itself immediately through torn grain, chattering, and stalling.
Don't give up - a shooting board is a critical tool for fine furniture work even in a power tool shop, because it can do something you can't do with a table saw and cross-cut sled (or a power miter saw) - take off 1/32nd of an inch off the end of a drawer side to make it match the length of the other side, for example. The plane you have is easily capable of this - if you watch Rob Cosman's dovetail videos, for example, you'll see that he's not using a miter plane - it's a Lie-Nielsen #5 (I think - might be a #6).<!----><!----><!---->
Edited 12/4/2008 1:44 pm ET by dkellernc
I'll figure it out eventually. I'm just a bit slow.
I was trying to do 1/4 sawn red oak. 3/4" thick but 3" wide.
a couple of things I figured out were. frog was all messed up. and the chip breaker was a little off. the plane side is not square to the sole... the list goes on and on.
I'm thinking of making my own plane. that way I will be forced to figure it all out. I'm guessing it would be a good exercise anyway.
I was actually able to get much better results with my block plane and free handing it. shooting board was hindering me I guess.
"I was trying to do 1/4 sawn red oak. 3/4" thick but 3" wide.
a couple of things I figured out were. frog was all messed up. and the chip breaker was a little off. the plane side is not square to the sole... the list goes on and on."
Yeah - red oak is not what I'd recommend to someone to start out with, particularly 3/4" thick red oak. It can be done - I regularly use a donkey's ear shooting fixture to make standing miters in Honduran Rosewood, but it takes considerable finesse.
By the way, though, it doesn't matter too much if the plane's sides are not square to the sole, as long as they're not out by much. What one does is to use the lateral adjustment to compensate. It's a procedure of take a few slices, check the work with a square, make a small adjustment to the blade's lateral adjustment, plane a few more shavings, etc... Once you dial in the blade and plane to the particular shooting board, then getting a 90 degree edge is automatic - you don't have to think about it.
That's one reason I have a dedicated #9 miter plane in the shop - it's already adjusted to my shooting board, so all I have to do is put the board on the bench, press the work up against the fence, and plane away.
David,
You mention: "....a shooting board is a critical tool for fine furniture work even in a power tool shop, because it can do something you can't do with a table saw and cross-cut sled (or a power miter saw) - take off 1/32nd of an inch off ...."
Just this very afternoon I've been making a couple of A&C picture frames in oak (Christmas time is the season of endless picture frame making) which involves taking fractions of a millimetre off ends and mitres to make things precise and neat. Guess what I've been using. :-)
A tablesaw with a sliding carriage having a cross cut fence with a microadjuster on its length-stop is capable of accurately taking off 0.2mm. (1/128th of an inch). "Shurely not!!" you may exclaim. I'm afraid it is so. No sloppy mitre gauges running in tracks in this shed, oh no. Somehow a shooting board seems redundant for such purposes, unless one enjoys the experience of course - or is saddled with a unisaw.
Lataxe, once more bashing them unisaw thangs.
" "Shurely not!!" you may exclaim. I'm afraid it is so."
I'd dispute that - it's possible with thin stock and very slow feed rates, but the problem is that the blade flexes in use because there's nothing but air on the other side of the teeth. The result is that the board gets cut, of course, but careful measurement with a square reveals the problem - the cut is usually at least several degrees out of square, and is usually inconsistent. If you're building deck furniture with screws and nails it doesn't matter, but if you're putting a picture frame together, even a couple of degrees is way too much.
This is my own experience, of course, so if you've managed to do it, I salute you. But after trying it for years (and a lot of times winding up with 1/32nd too short!), the shooting board and plane was a revelation - and a heck of a lot more reproducible.
DK,
He he - no blade deflection on that Scheppach TS and no out-of-square (or out of 45 degree) cuts. I'm sure you know how a mitred frame will reveal even the smallest deviation from the equal lengths of the contributing members or from the 45 degree angle of the mitres. One cannot tolerate even the slightest gap.
Also, 8 - 12cm wide stiles with their ends abutted (via dovetails) to the long edge of the rails will reveal any ill-matching lengths or deviant angles, as things will not be square. But loh! The glass fits in the rabbet like a chicken's top lip.
The stock I cut today was 21mm thick and the pieces were between 8cm and 12 cm wide, 80cm - 56cm long. The blade is a 42 tooth 250mm diameter ATB of 3.2mm kerf. It has been recently sharpened (after nearly 3 years use mind - although I am an amateur so this is not so much cutting).
Oooh, them frames do look smart when they are clamped up all tight and precise.
Shall I sent your details to Mr Scheppach? :-)
Lataxe, owner of a proper table saw from them German men.
"Shall I sent your details to Mr Scheppach? :-)"
Hah! I've no doubt he'd be happy with relating your results in his ad literature. But I should clarify that I'm not talking about out-of-square (or out of 45 degrees) to the sides of the board - what I find (and a lot of others that attempt it) is that the end of the board is not square with the face of the board after running it through a table saw or a miter saw where there isn't wood on both sides of the blade.
This is, by the way, something I've repeated over and over again, as I will usually use the TS or the miter saw to rough-cut the dimensions I need - if I attempt to shave just a hair off the end, it will come out non-square, no matter how much calibration I've done between the blade's sides and the machine's table. However, since cuts that go through a longer piece (where the blade has wood on both sides of the cut) come out perfectly square, I don't sweat this - I just correct the out-of-square condition on a shooting board. From what I've seen, pro shops will usually use a disc sander to correct slightly over-length parts, but I don't like the noise and the dust from mine, so it sits unused in the corner.
David,
We need the FWW men to do an article on the matter. "Which of these ten TS can really cut straight and square". Perhaps they will import a Scheppach and then sell it on to a lucky American person......... :-)
Lataxe, who has lovely square ends, oh yes he does.
"We need the FWW men to do an article on the matter. "Which of these ten TS can really cut straight and square". Perhaps they will import a Scheppach and then sell it on to a lucky American person......... :-)"
Lataxe, not to belabor the point (perhaps it's too late for that!), but I rather doubt the experience I and others have had has much to do with the saw - it's the blade flexing laterally during use that causes a non-square end when attempting to trim a small portion off of the end of a board. This happens (at least to me) with several different saws and blades - the one on my table saw is a standard thickness Forrest WWII, the one on my miter saw is a Freud standard-thickness 80T 12" blade.
This is just my impression, but I'd think the effect would be worse with a thin-kerf saw blade, though perhaps the blade stabilizers normally used with these would prevent such flexing.
David,
I confess that I'm puzzled as to why a blade should be deflected by a piece of wood being cross cut on one side only. The force of the blade's rotation is in line with its body. The force of the push on the wood into the blade is also in line with its body. Where does the force come from that pushes the blade to one side?
A push on the stationary blade from the side must be quite large, from my hand, to make the blade deflect even a very small amount. How does a similar amount of force get generated by a crosscut of a plank end, especially one taking just a fraction of a millimetre?
Perhaps more to the point, I have never had a problem caused by taking a tiny slice off the end of a piece that needs a tiny adjustment to fit. The ends are most definitely square in both dimensions. Believe me, I seek precision in these matters. There are no tell-tale gaps or deviations from square of the cut piece when fitted into the furniture.
In short, I am mystified that you or anyone finds a problem with this procedure, not because I disbelieve you but because it never happened to me and I can't visualise how it could happen unless a blade or its arbor is inherently wobbly.
Lataxe
My calibration for my handsaw is the amount of Crown Royal I've had in my morning coffee.
T.Z.
A couple of students of mine brought Groz planes to a handplane workshop I was having in my shop. You will need to spend some time tuning it up to get it to perform to a higher degree of performance, especially on end grain.
You'll have more success with a shooting board using a low angle, bevel up plane, like a LA jack plane, or a #9 miter plane. Equally as critical will be that the sole of the plane is exactly 90° from the side which is riding down on your shooting board.
Make sure your blade is very, very sharp, and take a very light cut. The shavings on endgrain should feel "feathery", for lack of a better description.
Here's my setup, made from scrap left over from a job, destined for the stove.
Jeff
I guess If I could get a LA plane for a reasonable price I might do it but they are an arm and a leg. even on ebay they go for big money.
I can buy 2 brand new forrest chop saw blades for the price of a new plane.
it's definitely not as easy to setup or maintain a shooting board as many seem to claim. it's an acquired skill for sure.
I love the idea but in practice it's proving to be a lot harder and way more expensive than I had thought.
I'm not asking this for myself but for the newbies who are looking to this forum for some guidance (I agree with your comments in the LN chisel thread).
On my shooting board, I started with a LN low angle jack and a year or two ago, bought a LN #9. However for those starting out, or for those on a pretty strict budget, I am posing this question, and hope some one has tried that can say "yeah or nay". Can a back bevel help, say on a #5 standard bench plane (provided, of course, the blade is hair popping sharp).
I've also got to add that I have never used a back bevel.
T.Z.
Tony,
To get more mass onto my LN 5 1/2 when using the shooting board, I added a ten pound weight from my exercise equipment to the plane. I only had to drill two holes, and the two bolts hold it tight. The extra ten pounds, a sharp blade, a fine cut, and both my wife and I pushing on the plane, and it works great. It also gives my wife and I something to do together. I believe it has made us much closer. I am thinking of seeing what a 25 pound weight will do to the performance of the LN 5 1/2 on the shooting board. I may put some of that high density super slick plastic down for the plane to glide along.Always looking for a way to improve the field of woodworking.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Now I see my problem. I had my wife holding the plane and I pushed her rather than both of us pushing together! If she'd only come home, I could try your method.
Randy
Randy,
Good to meet someone with a sense of humor.
Cheers.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
and good to meet you. Regarding your other post, have you considered tipping your workbench up on its side the long way so your plane isn't running sideways?
R,Tell me, why aren't there $2000 shooting boards for sale? Or did I just miss them? LV and LN could make them of exotic wood, with micrometer adjusting Knobs, and computer memory for settings, and an automaded adjustment mechanism for changes in heat and humidity. Heck I could design one that Holtey would be proud of and sell at the same price as one of his planes (eg the cost of my entire workshop).
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Tony
I tried back bevels a long time ago on traditional bevel down planes, and didn't think too much of the improvement.
I can sharpen a #5 well enough to get it to work just fine on end grain (i.e., shooting board useage) but it still will not perform as well as a low angle bevel down plane.
For those who want a real answer, here it is. Bevel up planes can work just as well as traditional style planes on all types of grain, including smoothing, etc..... However, without going to extreme measures in sharpening the blade, a bevel down plane cannot compare in quality of cut to a bevel up plane, like a low angle Jack or a #9 miter plane, for shooting board applications.
The reason why I purchased the #9 is because I make cabinets for a living, and make alot of cabinet doors. At least half of them have mitered corners, and I shoot every single one of them for a perfect fit.
A great carver, say like Lee Grindinger, could carve beautiful furniture with a sharpened spoon. However, he used his gouges and chisels because they were the tools that were intended for the job.
Hope this helps.
Jeff
Edited 12/3/2008 6:07 pm ET by JeffHeath
I fully agree Jeff: the only planes I've used on my shooting boards, were first a LA jack and then a #9. But for a Christmas present, the recipient will get a shooting board and a #5 Sargent VBM with a Hock blade sharpened to hair poppin'. I surface ground the sole and then squared the sides to the sole, so it ought to be a pretty good starting rig.
Thanks for your response!
T.Z.
Found some things which might help. In a standard block plane, the bevel faces up, there's no cap iron and the cutter angle is 20 degrees. With a typical 25-degree bevel, the cutting edge that meets the wood is the same for both standard block planes and bench planes For greater slicing action on endgrain work, low-angle block planes are available with a 12-degree cutter. For greater slicing action on endgrain work, low-angle block planes are available with a 12-degree cutter. Planing across the end of a board will cause the grain to split away at the far corner. One solution is to plane from both corners to the center. A better method, however, is to first plane a chamfer on the outfeed corner. This allows you to plane straight across the end without splitting. If you don't have enough stock to cut the chamfer, clamp a small sacrificial block to your work. When you plane across the end, the block will split instead of your workpiece. Also, Take a look at the following web link. (http://www.whitemountdesign.com/ShootingBoard.htm)
Mr Dad,
Save up and treat yo'sen to one o' these:
http://www.marcouplanes.co.nz/index.php/current-planes/marcoum12
Lataxe
I like tools in general and own an old <!----><!----><!---->Stanley<!----><!----> #4 that pretty much sucks. also a groz 5 jack that also pretty much sucks. a groz block pane that rocks so good I love it to death. a lie-nielsen Low Angle Adjustable Mouth Block Plane which barely works and also sucks and for the money I'm so sorry I ever purchased it.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I own a couple of lie-nielsen chisels that are awesome. They sharpen up so nice and are a pleasure to use. They put my old <!----><!---->Stanley<!----><!----> chisels to shame.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
It’s the out of the box crappy plane experience I dislike. It's more like buying a kit that might work or might not work. Requires big flat special granite slab for flattening and machinists tools and (in my case) hours and hours of trail and error to get something that still sucks. If I purchased an orbital sander that required 5 hours of additional setup it would be considered ridiculous and $300-$400 of additional sharpening equipment I’d think it was crazy. But hand planes require an obscene amount of maintenance; in my opinion. It’s like owning a Harley Davidson. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
So I usually give up and keep loving my little groz block plane that works so nice.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Anyone that would purchase a $5000 hand plane is in need of serious mental help;<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Ok I feel better.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"Anyone that would purchase a $5000 hand plane is in need of serious mental help"Not really.And it's about $2k, which is less than most people spend on an engagement ring. Now that's a useless piece of carbon which only serves to gratify your vanity. This is a functional tool that serves to enable you to do lovely woodworking.---Pedro
anyone who would spend 2000K on a hand plane is also nuts. not sersiosly but just nuts.
Mr Dad,Pedro is definitely a bit mad but then so am I. However, we is happy-mad, especialy when the shavings coming off the nasty-wood are fine and leave no tedious tearout. As to end-grain - Ha! It quails before the wonderous brass & steel behemoth. Money in the bank only goes moldy and then is taken away in a cart by a bad accountant for illicit use. Get it spent on proper thangs.Now, you must relate how you have managed to get a non-working Lie Nielsen but also a working Grotz. This is a remarkable feat!Lataxe
you know how a good plane sounds and feels when it's working. it's kind of addicting to use one that is working nice.
the LN never makes the sound. more of a whine; it hurts when I use it.
Pearls before swine.
i don't know about you but im getting mighty warm and fuzzy feelings. this whole thread is getting me seriously excited. i mean come on! dead-nuts 45's. noiseless, dustless end grain squaring. a truly honest, easily wife sanctioned, tool purchase of a lifetime. im going to give this shooting board with quality plane thing a go.
eef
I'm just a complainer;
If I wasn't saving for someone's college...
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