I have been looking for used hand planes on ebay and found one called a shelton. I’ve never heard of of Shelton before and am wondering if this would be a good purchase. Thanx.
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Replies
Jim W.
It depends on the plane but I bought one one E-bay and it is a "project" at best. It's almost new but the blade is junk, and the plane as a whole needs a great deal of tuning. It has some good points; the knob and tote while not exotic are decent hardwood, the brass depth adjuster and the "Y" fitting are a nice close fit. Mine is a later model; have no idea what the older ones are like. If you can get it very cheap, it might be worth your while.
Regards,
Mack
"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
How much do you consider cheap? Under $50, under $20? After talking to some local cabinet and furniture makers, I have been swayed from purchasing from Veritas or Lie Nielson due to price and that according to them they are "designer" tools. They suggested I look on ebay, but I don't know where to start. I know older Stanleys are good, but what is older 1970s, 1940s, 1920s? I have seen lots of other brands, but am a little nervous about spending $50 on a plane that could be junk. I'd rather spend the money on a Veritas (I'm in college and there is NO way I could afford a Lie Nielson) and save myself the time searching (which is better spent in the shop) and the extra money of buying planes that turn out to be duds. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanx.Jim
Coventry Woodworking
Jim,
Stanley's made up to WWII are considered the best planes especially those with frog adjusters. In order to make an intelligent purchase off Ebay you will want to familiarize yourself with how to date the planes. Here's a good source:
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0.htm
For a cheaper alternative, the metal planes made by Sargent with the "VBM" logo are also very good planes. Try searching under "Sargent VBM".
Good luck!
Jim W.
Given the details of you situation, I'd make a sharp turn away from the Shelton. The link to "Patricks Blood and Gore" given by the other poster will prove very enlightening if you haven't already been there.
Old Stanleys are a good start but they are to be considered a "kit", not a ready to use item. E-bay is a great place to shop as you can see a lifetime of variety in half and hour; from the most common junk to the extremely rare. It's fun to look even if you don't buy anything.
If it's user tools you are after then you can find some bargains. But, make that decision before you buy! Don't try to turn a bargain back into a collectable. Look for planes with broken totes that you can replace yourself. Stay away from cracks and welds until you get real comfortable about what will effect performance and what is cosmetic. Rust buckets sell cheap (under $20) but take a lot of effort to clean up and usually require blade replacement. Check out replacement blades for common plane sizes so you can factor that possibility into your buying decision.
I would recommend #4, #5 & #7 for starters. As another recommended, look for planes made prior to WWII with the frog adjust. You should be able to get a decent #4 and #5 for under $25.00 and a #7 in working order you may be able to snag for around $45. If you shop carefully you might beat these prices but not by a whole lot.
Once you have your "starter set", don't even think about actually using them until you have learned to sharpen. A plane iron is not really sharp until you can shave hair off your arm with it. Even the finest plane will work like crap with a dull iron.
I agree with your advisor that LN are designer tools. The Veritas seem a bit different. If an old Stanley be compared to a Chevy, then maybe the LN would be a Ferrari and the Veritas a Volvo. After your starter set is obtained, sharpened, tuned and functioning properly you may find a need (want) for a model of plane that is very rare and expensive in any condition. The new Veritas (or even LN) then becomes a very attractive option.
Last bit of advice on E-bay: do considerable watching before doing any buying. Know what the values are and be aware that for common items, there's always the "next one". E-mail me off forum and I will give you a short list of "good guy" tool sellers on e-bay. There are thousands of tools on e-day with hundreds of sellers but it's good to start out knowing at least a few of the reliable ones. John Walter's Pocket Guide (Stanley Tools) is available for about $10 at "Woodcraft Supply Corp." (http://www.woodcraft.com). Check it out and if you're looking at "bargains", stay under the lowest price listed for Good + condition (including shipping). Best of luck! Keep us posted!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
"After talking to some local cabinet and furniture makers, I have been swayed from purchasing from Veritas or Lie Nielson due to price and that according to them they are "designer" tools."
As you can see from all the responses, there are definitely lots of good ways to go about buying planes. However, the advice quoted above was WRONG. Veritas and Lie-Nielsen are NOT designer tools, if that means that they're just for show or wouldn't be considered by "real" woodworkers. They are excellent tools, wonderful to use, do the job at hand wonderfully and are used extensively by many, many non-designer woodworkers, amateur and professional. Lie-Nielsen in my opinion is a step higher than Lee Valley, but both are excellent.
Go to as many flea markets as you like and shop on E-bay all you like. But do yourself a favor and buy ONE Lie-Nielsen or Veritas plane. My suggestion would be the Lie-Nielsen adjustable-mouth low-angle block plane, but any of them would be fine. That way you'll know what you're aiming for when you buy something old and try to restore it.
You are absolutely correct about the quality of Lee Valley. I own their low angle block plane and it is such a pleasure to use that I reach for it before any of my other planes. I went the Stanley Bedrock route, rather than Lie-Nielsen. I have a LN DT saw and love it.Dan T.
The one serious conviction that a man should have is that nothing is to be taken too seriously.
Nicholas Butler (1862 - 1947)
Thanks to everyone for the info. I did not bid on the Shelton or any others on Ebay for that matter. By chance, through searching for Shelton on Yahoo, I found a tool restorer right here in MA. After viewing his planes for sale, I decided to make an offer on a #5 Stanley Bailey.
What shocked me was his reply. He sent the plane without a payment for me to hold and use and evaluate before I comitted any $$. Amazing. I didn't think people like that existed anymore. Anyway, it is a beautiful tool and I think a very good first purchase.
As far as Lie Nielson and Lee Valley go, I did not mean that I would not like a designer tool, just that he said they were not necessary to create quality work. I would love to purchase a DT Saw from Lie Nielson some day, but for now I'll keep learning with my Crown Gent's Saw (the person makes the craftsman not the tool, right???).Jim
Coventry Woodworking
JimW,
I've picked up most of my planes from the Sunday morning tag sales up at Todd's Farm in Rowley. It can be a bit hit and miss but its fun anyhow and I'm in no rush....also picked up some great Disston saws...
However, your timing is great because the antique tool auction is taking place around April 23-24 up in Nashua. The dealers and their tools in the parking lot will are awesome....every price range...tons of planes....from Norris & Spiers on down...I never did make it inside to the auction...
http://www.mjdtools.com
I've written a couple pieces on rehabbing older Stanley planes....learn what a Type 11 through Type 16 is and buy those. Probably the best value out there...with simple elbow grease, you can have an entire set of planes for the price of one L/N:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages
Rehabbing Old Planes
http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008638
http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1886&highlight=rehabbing
An Inexpensive 50-Degree Smoothing Plane
http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009153
http://www.woodworking.org/Exchange/Forum2/HTML/013442.html
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.
All of the advice given in this thread is worthwhile. I have six bench planes that I bought on e-bay, or rather I have six planes that I assemble from 18 planes bought on e-bay. I took the best of each (knob, tote, iron, etc.) and assembled the planes, then sold the rest on e-bay. The final total for each plane, after reselling the left -overs, was ~$23.00. Be prepared to spend a LOT of time on rehab and shop carefully. My first purchase was a dud -- I was too new to the game to realize there are hundred of thousands, if not millions, of hand planes in circulation and I paid way too much. As I got better, I was paying less than $15.00 each. Mine are all Type 13s from 1923-1928 in the Sweetheart era.
Dan T.
The one serious conviction that a man should have is that nothing is to be taken too seriously.
Nicholas Butler (1862 - 1947)
DanT,
I like your honesty! I've gotten burned once or twice (more) on E-Bay myself! I also liked the part about the "left-overs"; I've got one of those 64 quart storage tubs full of "that" awaiting some rainy, bored winter nights to be "processed" into something worthwhile.
I've heard/read a lots of folks saying the types 11, 12 &13 are the really great planes. I'm still at the point where I have to refer to the book to determine the type of a plane. I like the concept of frog adjust but in reality I usually set up planes for use; ie one for coarse work etc. and rarely change the frog position once set. I like the feel and looks of the low knob better than the newer high style but supposedly the low knobs were prone to cracking at the base. Never had a pristine one crack or opened up an old hairline crack in any knob on any of the planes I use. I don't know how they get cracked but lots of old, low knobs are.
You're certainly right about the number of tools out there! Like I posted to someone the other day, there's always the "next one" when it comes to the more common stuff. Do some watching before you do any buying.
Like I used to tell my daughter when she was in middle school, smart people learn from their mistakes; really smart people learn from other peoples' mistakes! Don't want to take all the drama out of E-Bay though!!LOL
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Like I used to tell my daughter when she was in middle school, smart people learn from their mistakes; really smart people learn from other peoples' mistakes! Don't want to take all the drama out of E-Bay though!!LOL
The problem with e-bay is that you're pretty much at the mercy of the seller. Some sellers are very good, some are not. I started collecting from e-bay about eight years ago, when it was still relatively new. At that time the only way to learn was to be the one making the mistakes. You are absolutely correct about the "next one." I try to discipline myself to stick with a price and not over bid, especially if some with a low number feedback is also bidding. IMO, the novices usually pay too much.
Regards,Dan T.
The one serious conviction that a man should have is that nothing is to be taken too seriously.
Nicholas Butler (1862 - 1947)
Dan
Yeah, understanding the E-Bay numbers is very important! I advised a couple folks to watch a while before buying. If you watch and examine results, you get a better feel for the sellers and also the other buyers as you mentioned. It's critical to your financial well being that you know when to "let it go"! It's easy to get caught up in the thing and forget the cost of shipping, the actual value of the item, the possibility of inaccurate description, etc, etc.
I've only been looking at E-Bay for about 18 months and I think I've pretty much got what I'm gonna' get there. The items I see that I would like to have are going much higher than I am willing to spend on an unseen tool. It's still fun to look and see what rare treasures are being sold.
Regards,
Mack "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
What is "the book"? Is it the article posted earlier or is it an actual book available for purchase??Jim
Coventry Woodworking
Jim,
The "Book" to which I referred is the 2003 Pocket Price Guide, Antique and Collectible, STANLEY TOOLS by John Walter. There are several copies on E-Bay at any given time but it's available from "Wood Craft" for $10.00 or so. It's just a pocket guide but has a high and low range for most Stanley hand tools. Be sure to read the "stuff" in the front of the book before you start bidding. He (author) gives out some very good info about how to use the book etc.
There is another book by the same author that is much broader in scope and greater in detail that is available in soft and hard cover but it's out of print and copies go for $100 or so. That one is more of an "Encyclopedia"; several hundred pages; everything you wanted to know and much more! Title is "Antique and Collectible Stanley Tools, Guide to Identity and Value". Great book if you're "in deep"!!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Hey Mack,
Suppose we could talk Jim into buying "Patented Transitional and Metallic Planes in America", by Roger Smith, then loaning them out? I'll even supply a link:
http://www.thebestthings.com/books/ptampia.htm
Sure looks like one heck of a set of books, but for $220.... Steve
Being in college, I doubt I could afford (nor will my girlfriend let me live to tell any of you that I did) that one. I'd rather spend the $$ on tools (can't ever have enough, even if they are old beaters that will never work again, they still look cool on the coffee table) although lately it all goes to classes.
Eventually I'll finish my degree (business) and be able to do this full time. For now I build cheap built-ins and do some small scale remodeling work, but hey, it pays the bills and keeps my skills up.Jim
Coventry Woodworking
Jim,
Oh well, it was worth a try. The rather exorborant price is the reason I don't have a set either. As for your lady, you do nice work, I bet you could build a peace offering, you'd probably escape with no major scars. You could include the set of books as education expense, probably write it off even, and then you'll never meet a plane you can't ID. How's that for devils advocate? Besides, books are tools. he he he
Have a good one!Steve
Maybe if we all put our heads together we can get the government to buy us each a set with some sort of grant!?!?
Happy Easter!
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack, you might be onto something. I happen to know they have the funds available, assuming my tax payment check clears, and I bet they'd just blow it on something ridiculous anyhow. Wonder if that Lesco character has any info we could use....
Happy Easter to you too,
Steve
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