Thanks in advance for responses.
I am finishing a wall hanging tool cabinet.; The cabinet is made of Hard and Soft Maple
I put down a even coat of boiled linseed oil then began applying a dark shallac. What i am seeing is that even though i applied 3 coats very evenly and thin there seems to be areas that are significantly lighter then others. This happens on the Hard Maple only. The soft maple takes the shellac very evenly.
Wondering what would cause this and is there a way to avoid this in the future.
Thanks
Replies
BLO bad choice for finish
Hi BLO under any film finish is not a good idea. Depending on conditions in the shop,BLO can take 3 dys or longer to dry, if dry at all. By using BLO as a sealer, you satuarated the surface with oil, preventing the shellac from penatrating evenly. Soft maple will allow the oil to soak in deeper than the hard maple, that's why it's used on butcher blocks. At this point I think you can put a piece of masking tape on the surface, press it firmly , and lift the finish from the surface. I don't understand why people use BLO in finishing today, most finishes require the removel of any oil before applaication. BLO was used in history as a cheap dip for fence post and window sash. BLO has quite a history in the furniture world, but people that know about BLO don't use it on furniture today, and especially as a sealer. Do good work! Randy
nothing wrong
with using BLO. you just have to know how to apply it properly and what you want it to do.
ron
When applying the BLO did you wipe off the excess thoroughly after letting it set on the surface for 15-20 minutes? Soft maple is more absorbent that hard maple and you will leave quite a bit of BLO on the surface of hard maple.
how do you do it
a dozen ways better with other procedures
ron
There is nothing wrong with BLO as part of a finish, if done correctly and allowed time to dry before finishing, as Howie and Sid have said. To me, the most suspect advice given this poster is to use masking tape for removal. I also believe it is raw linseed used on fence posts--I think you may have been looking for the perjorative--as in, don't treat your furniture like fencing.
OP, you may have to wipe it down with mineral spirits to get excess off if you didn't wipe it off adequately the first time. And there will be differences in absorption. Good luck.
I go along with Bohn on this one. BLO is prefered by many, but from my experience is problematic. Why tempt fate - finishing has enough things that can go wrong - there are other better choices to pop the grain or create a surface that's low luster
SA
SA,
Thank you for your e-mail, your comment was much appreciated. This site would not allow me to respond to your e-mail. I also cannot seem to go in depth in my responses on this forum. See you at woodnet or SAPFM forums.
Randy
When planning to use a film finish as your basic finish, there is no need for BLO except to "pop" the grain or highlight the figure in the wood. It's the natural amber color that performs this coloring. Wiping on a coat of BLO, letting set for 15-20 minutes and wiping it dry and letting it fully dry 24-48 hours is all that's required.
Another thing to keep in mind is that oil based varnish or poly varnish is made with linseed oil. If using an oil based clear finsh, there is little need to apply BLO as a separate step. The BLO in the formulation will provide the amber coloring that highlights the grain. Using a test board, apply BLO to an area as above. Then brush on a coat of oil based varnish covering both the area with the BLO and the area without BLO. See if you can see any difference.
If using a water clear acrylic waterborne, applying a coat of BLO is one way to highlight the grain. In that case, let the BLO dry 4-5 days before clear coating it.
There are a number of ways to provide the amber color to the wood. Amber shellac is escellent.
As always, test a number of finishing schedule options and see which one produces the "look" you want.
here we go ;
new guy to the forum ,making his imprint. I don't need to read George Franks book, experience tells me what the pros and cons of what BLO does for what I want it to do. time is money, your right. I am usually working on more than one piece at a time in my shop. I just plan my work schedule on my jobs to facilitate what ever that I need to do to them. I never get in a rush with my work. perhaps you are not at an age yet to percieve patience.. blo is not only about popping the grain but about the colour that comes into effect with time.
now mind you the BLO that you get today is not the blo that one got in the past. they are not using prime N/A flax for the manufacture of it any more. we are getting a much lesser grade of flax from the countries above Afghanistaon that all enf in stan. it doesn't smell the same and it has a more green tone(liquid) to it than it use to. but it still works.
there may be unknowns to you as you may not have the experience to deal with it! If it adds days or more to the drying time then one is doing something wrong. are you a trained finisher as I see you quoting about tests that every trained finisher knows about. there is always more than one way to do a lot of things in this trade and the trick is knowing which one will give you the results that you want when you want it
ron
Indeed, Here we go again
I am with Randy on this one. If you use sample boards and go through the complete finishing process, you will find no difference in the piece treated with BLO and the one not. This would be using shellac or varnish as a top coat. I don't know about and don't use water based finishes. This test was done by FWW a number of years ago, with the same conclusion. BLO is instant gratification, but by the time the time your finishing is finished, there will be no difference in the look if you don't use it. But, you don't have to believe me or Randy, try if for yourself. At best it makes no difference, at worst it can cause problems.
sounds like another
another infomed reader
ron
test
trouble posting
First off lets address a few inaccuracies. Even raw linseed oil is a drying oil--it's problem is that it dries at a glacial speed. BLO by definition already comes with driers included. You don't need to add driers to get BLO to cure. You do of course need to apply it properly. An even coat isn't the criteria, what matters is that after a short period for penetration you need to thoroughly wipe off, (buff off might be the better term) all excess BLO that remains on the surface. Then it will be suffiently cured for applying top coats after less than 48 hours given temperatures above about 70. Even for pro's the cure time is only money if you have nothing productive to do in the interval.
If your top coat is to be a linseed oil based varnish or other dark varnish, which would include those based around phenolic resin such as Waterlox or Behlen Rockhard, then you will be hard pressed to see the difference in enhanced figure from using the BLO initially. Same for dark shellac. You might see more of a difference with a soya/alkyd based varnish such as Pratt& Lambert 38. The difference would be significant if your top coat is a light colored finish such as blonde shellac or a waterborne finish. (Be sure the BLO is cured before applying a waterborne--I'd give few extra days if you can still sniff the smell of the oil.
Now back to the original poster's problem. I surmise he only had a problrm with dark shellac over the soft maple because the BLO didn't fill the pores as fully or as evenly on the more porous soft maple so the first coats of shellac could penetrate, and hense color this less evenly, than over the hard maple where the BLO left the wood much more completely filled. I doubt the BLO caused the problem, but it surely did little to prevent it when the shellac was aborbed differently into the two woods. After the first coat or two had completely sealed the wood subsequent coats of shellac would go on more evenly, and applying an extra coat to the lighter wood, the two materials could be evened up with additional coats.
I agree about stupid spam filter.
Formal training or not it doesn't take much to realize that the experience of a great many people, working professioally and otherwise has been largely positive using BLO for the purpose of enhancing appearance of grain under light colored top coats. Yes it can go astray when the basic injunction to wipe off excess is not followed. It adds almost zero water resistance and clearly its not as effective as a sealer as shellac--not much is--but it does dry on domestic hardwoods and I'd bet on balance causes fewer problems than shellac for DIY finishers. BLO is lousy when trying to build a complete finish, and didn't help with the issue posed by the initial poster. But, his problems would have been much the same if he had attempted to start directly with dark shellac on two different woods, though he doesn't tell us pound cut or exact grade or how it was applied. Still a universal prohibition on BLO seems pretty drastic for a material that has one job it does effectively and which is both cheap and easily available.
Hi Steve,
I'm not sure, but it appears you agreed with me, BLO is an inferior product for today's modern uses. And as far as beginners in the field, can be very problematic. I have to agree with you, if you are new to French Polishing you may loose some sleep on that too. Difference is if you do make a mistake with BLO we shall need to remove the spam filters to get you out of that trouble, on the other hand with Shellac, merley taking an alcohol saturated rag, you can erase and start over. No stripping involved. Has I said before I never intented for anyone to change their ways. Something works for you that is great. Finishing can be a very twisted subject for many. My intention was to make people that are comfortable in their fininshing procedures to at times rethink their processes and to continue to learn. BLO today is considered unacceptable for use on High End Antiques. That statment does not allow room for rebuttle. As you can see seldom do my questions get answered on these forums, and I know of other conservators/finishers that read these forums and do not answer. When I ask them why they do not share the knowledge,the answer is always the same, "Why Bother". I don't know what your training is but I can tell you 30 + years after first starting my education in this field, I don't consider myself a master (some do) as I still continue to attend schools on finishing. Technology is always changning, you can never stop learning.
Do good work.
Randy Bohn. Conservator of Wooden Artifacts
theory and practicle
are two different things. there are lots of things that educated people say that can't or shouldn't be done that are practised everyday by the ones that may actually get their hands dirty. one keeps learning in the field eveyday, if they have the inclination to do so and are capable of recognizing the results and making adjustments if necessary to improve''technology has claimed to have advanced finishing esp in the last 30-40 years, but has any of it really stood the test of time?. I do get to see a lot of different problems with the newer stuff with longevity
where are you a conservator , at a public institution or privat?
ron
test
posting attempt #4 I think the trick is to not say anything
Attempt
I think Sid must have cut your computer wire - no more posts for you -
SA
now why
would I have done that. I am curious about his credentials
ron
Out of curiosity, what wooden artifacts are you conservator of?
Steve actually answered the OP's problem. You seem to need/want agreement with your point. BLO DOES have a place--maybe not this one, but saying it doesn't ever any longer is rather cavalier.
I doubt conservators of high end antiques would care to use duct tape on their wares. Or for that matter, dig a knife into the surface to see how it has penetrated. REally.
As for Steve's (AND Howie's) credentials, is the pope catholic? LOL hang around a while.
I'm not sure what this has to do with the OP's question. I believe you might find that his oil layer is much more "in the wood" than a possible layer of surface "finish" as is being discussed in the article. I'd strip that piece of furniture in a NY minute and be done with it--and make it better looking.
BUT back to your advice of cutting into the wood--read the article which points out that "this isn't appropriate for all uses, of course". There is more than one way to finish and refinish something. I happen to have been refinishing for quite a long time and often have something I can pick up--or something I can dismiss.
missing the point
The test also works on new projects. Your test board has the same procedures on it , test your test board. This site is painful to use. Shellac is a better sealer. Randy
Shellac will allow total color control through out the entire finish process. oils will not. This site will not allow me to go in depth. Can't change everyone's mind, but can make you think!! Randy
what ?
would one be using BLO on for a sealer anyway?
{test] -paint shellac on a piece of glass next to BLO.---- what will this prove----- your mixing apple with oranges here. shellac is a surface finish where blo isn't
ron
I thought that you had
thread or something going on there. I do not need to go there and ask a question about blo. I have been around it all my life and I am 67. I have seen it used and miss used. So then no one is really using it as a sealer, but as a first coat to perhaps enhance the grain or to warm up the colout of the wood. i know what applications that I use it for and don't have any problems with myself using it. the only place that i use it as a sealer is over a alcohol based dye or stain when it is getting an overcoat of shellac.
putting blo on glass is a mute point as then you are going to paint a layer of it on the glass. won't dry properly this way and besides who is applying it on glass. if you wpie it dry on glass, then you pretty well have nothing left. applly it on wood and after wiping the surface dry, you have a finish left that won't congeal as on glass or lift off with tape. willl be dry to overcoat the next day
ron
Hey All
Your experience tells you that BLO is ok as a sealer [First coat] My training and experience tells me there are better ways. Besides being a former assistant instructor at the only acredited finishing school in the country. As well as others. Also having lectured on finishing at places like the Henry Ford Museum, Minneapolis Institute of Arts, as well as others I find it a shame that some do not keep an open mind. So in the future if someone says they can clone alligator finishes or repair alligator finish by solvent fumigation I hope you will listen and give them a chance. I use these procedures on a regular basis. I also maintain 6 and 7 figure collections through out the country. Good luck in your future endevors, remember trained finishers can tell your experience by what you do. Good luck to all. Randy Bohn, Conservator
got hit by
the spam filter bug and couldn't reply
ron
Yes, alligator finishes can be easily repaired. That is a red herring. That is not what has been asked here, and to date, you have insisted that the OP was wrong wrong wrong in the first place--rather than give him the advice needed to complete what he has started.
Oh, remember you read it here
he's gonna be goin' to the dictionary!!
Thank you--And Sid.
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