Is there a big difference between the finish you get using sotre-bought, out of the can shellac, and what you get when you make your own mix with flakes?
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Replies
Fresh shellac dries much faster, and you can add a little color tone with flakes....most of the canned stuff is blonde.
M,
Ready-made (mixed) shellac comes in all colours and types but I can tell you from bitter experience that it doesn't keep very long. If you do keep it too long and apply it, you find it won't dry and stays a sticky mess......which is not easy to get off agin'!
If you make your own from the dry flakes, you can make as much as you need and no more. You can make it to your own gooey-ness (called "cut") and even add colour. The dry flakes also keep for much, much longer than the ready-made liquids.
Lataxe
Montana,
Everything you need to know about shellac - From Jeff Jewitt:
http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/jeff/shellac.htm.
I always mix my own. I grind the flakes into a fine powder with an electric coffee grinder dedicated to that purpose. Ground, they dissolve in a few minutes as opposed to overnight. Which means I can quickly mix up a batch whenever I need. I wouldn't use shellac any other way.
But Zinseer's products are very high quality. They have a very long shelf life and are dated.
Rich
I too have had great results with Zinsser's products. I use both amber and blond (I believe they now call it Seal Coat). I usually dilute the material as it comes from the can 50% with alcohol and have never had a problem with drying. After a few hours (depending on the humidity level at the time) it sands beautifully without clogging my sandpaper. As a refinisher and antique restorer I couldn't operate without shellac.
Furndr
I use flakes, and I use Zinsser. Both are good. Depends what you want in the way of color and characteristics. Zinsser sells three that I know of -- Amber (we used to call orange), a clear (blonde), and SealCoat, which is extra blonde and completely dewaxed. The SealCoat also has some shelf-life enhancing additive. I have used the same can for months at a time. Great stuff. Joe
Apparently, though it is processed differently from ordinary shellac, there isn't an additive in Seal Coat. I'd guess that the longevity comes from taking something out (and not just the Wax), not putting something in. The Clear (which used to be called White) is chemically bleached. The bleaching process does reduce some of the protective qualities so that it is less moisture resistant than unbleached shellac, for example.
Interesting. It is true that they refer to whatever they do to increase shelf life as a "process."J
RichWhere do you buy your shellac flakes and denatured alcohol? I'm thinking about mixing my own too. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Tom,It's been 2 years since I last ordered, but I used this place:http://www.woodfinishsupply.com/ShellacPricing800.html I've also used Homesteadhttp://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/shellac3.htm Or you can Google "shellac flakes." The number of suppliers has drastically diminished in recent years.I usually use super blond flakes.I buy denatured alcohol from Ace Hardware or Home Depot. I prefer alcohol that's denatured with methanol, and avoid brands that have lacquer thinner(s) in them. I used to use denatured alcohol to clean the surface of finishes other than shellac until I unknowingly used alcohol with ketones to clean a guitar I was "touching up." THAT was a bit of a scary few moments and necessitated a lot more refinishing than I had planned.The components are never listed on cans of alcohol, you have to look up the MSDS. They're generally available on the Internet under the manufacturer's name or distributor's name.You'll need a small mechanical or electronic scale to weigh out the shellac. (my electronic scale cost $29)1 oz dry shellac flakes/gallon alcohol = a "one pound cut" (1# cut). 2 oz/gallon = 2# cut, etc. Of course, use smaller quantities in the same ratios for mixing less than a gallon of working solution.Some people make a big deal about these designations of mixture strength. There is nothing sacred about these numbers. But when you first start, it's a very good idea to do it accurately so that you'll know what a 1# cut "feels like" as you use it. And what a 2# cut feels like and how it dries, etc.A 2# cut is about as heavy a solution as I like to use. A 3# cut is much too thick. I actually wind up with about a 1.5# - 2# cut. And I don't really measure it out so much any more. I judge the solution strength by its viscosity and I know how much flakes to add to a small jar (usually 8 oz) of alcohol. Enough flakes to fill a plastic 1 oz measuring cup is just about right. That's a crude way to measure, as there's a lot of empty room in the cup as the flakes are roughly 1/2" x 1" and 1/16-1/8" thick. But it works for me. Once they're dissolved, I swirl the solution to "test" its viscosity and add more ground flakes or more alcohol as needed. This ain't rocket science.Rich
Rich - I think you've made a typo:
"1 oz dry shellac flakes/gallon alcohol = a "one pound cut" (1# cut). 2 oz/gallon = 2# cut, etc. Of course, use smaller quantities in the same ratios for mixing less than a gallon of working solution."
This isn't right - a one-pound cut of shellac is one pound (dry weight) of shellac per gallon of alcohol, hence the name.
If you've a scale that measures in grams, here's a convenient ratio: 113 grams of shellac, dry weight, to one quart of alcohol, or equivalently, 28 grams of shellac to one cup of alcohol.
Oops!Right you are, and ashamed I am looking!I wasn't quite awake this morning when I wrote that.A "one lb cut" (1# cut) of shellac is one pound of dry shellac to one gallon of alcohol. A "two lb cut" (2# cut) of shellac is two pounds of dry shellac to one gallon of alcohol.Rescale your quantities as needed in the same proportions.Rich, who is red-faced.
"Rich, who is red-faced." - There's a lot worse mistakes to be made, and I think I've made most of them. At least the shellac thing is reversible - my inability to compensate for the vibration inherent in a 3/4" ship auger drill bit and the subsequent 10 degrees off of 90 that I just drilled into a new benchtop is not. ;-)
That's not a "bug." It's a feature!Rich
Rich nicely describes the traditional way of getting a precise shellac mix. However, I produce a working cut the lazy way: I take a Sharpie and make a mark on the outside of a glass jar at a level representing how much shellac I need. Then I make a mark halfway between the bottom of the jar and that first mark. I pour in shellac flakes to the level of the lower mark. (If you use the coffee grinder approach to get the flakes to dissolve more quickly, this is the time to grind them and then return them to the jar.) With flakes in the jar, pour in denatured alcohol to the top line you've Sharpied. Shake and you're done. Norman
Norman,I didn't want to describe the "technique" to someone asking about mixing shellac for the first time. But the way I usually measure is just to put "some" flakes into a pint jar of alcohol."Some," being defined as a small amount in the palm of my hand that I know is about right from having done it enough times. The soup will tell me if it's too thin or too thick.I actually use my little electronic scale mostly for measuring yeast, salt, sugar, honey for bread making. Now THOSE quantities have to be accurate!Rich
Mmmm. Now that would be a good smell in the house on this chilly November day . . .
Grinding flakes to powder speeds up the dissolving time and makes it much more convenient. I really like the coffee grinder idea but couldn't get it past the wife... I use an old hand cranked mill (like a sausage grinder, but finer). All of $1 at a flea market, well spent.
Pete
Pete,Notice I said my grinder is dedicated to the purpose of grinding shellac.But even if it were not, shellac is non-toxic. Shellac residue would not pose a danger if the grinder were then used for coffee. (I wouldn't, but that's the fact).Rich
I used to use Zinsser's, but switched to flakes about 6 months ago. I wouldn't go back. I particularly like being able to mix small batches when I'm shellacking small jobs.
Norman
Having just stripped off several coats of store bought shellac that never really got around to fully drying, I feel I can offer a few ideas.
1) I don't think that store mixed shellac is all bad. Just make sure you use it well before the expiration date (or within a few months of the production date). Otherwise it won't dry properly. Oh, the first coat or two will look okay, but by the third coat, things will start to get gummy.
2) Mixing shellac from flakes isn't that difficult. Lots of good information on that in this thread already. Just remember to strain (using a paint strainer is easier than decanting) before using to eliminate bark, bug parts, etc. from your finish.
3) It's probably just me, but I think that shellac from scratch has a more pleasant, or at least less powerful, smell. Shellac from a can seemed to have an oddly sweet, planty smell.
4) As with any finish you are using for the first time, try a few test runs! It's a lot easier to start over with something new if you don't have to strip gummy yuck off your real project.
Thanks for the info. I'm a convert. Unfortunatley I have to order out of state to get the flakes, (we all know about out of state flakes!). When I called the local paint shops I was told things like. "I've been in the paint business for 30 years and I've never heard of shellac flakes".
My order from shellac.net came pretty quickly, within a week if I remember correctly.
I'll give them a try.
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