I just had a Lee Valley bevel-up smoother delivered, and it’s a great plane. I specified the A-2 steel blade, and now I’m wondering if that was a mistake. That stuff is as hard as all get out. Holds an edge just fine, but it’s wearing me out trying to sharpen it.
I’ve tried abrasive paper and oilstones, and neither really cuts it very well. Would water stones work any better? This could be an opportunity to buy some and engage in some arcane slurry sharpening and stone flattening action!
Also, for those of you in a conundrum over how to heat your shop this winter, just get one of these planes and settle down to work over some hard maple. You won’t need no stinkin’ heater; you’ll be shedding clothes like Paris Hilton. It’s real work.
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It’s not a pet. – Jackie Moon
Replies
Have sharpened LV A2 and LN A2 blades with DMT diamond coarse and extrafine and then to Norton 8000 Waterstone for a microbevel -- fast and painless.
Just never understood the attraction of oil stones. Maybe if you freshen your oil stone on a diamond plate it will cut. Many brilliant builders like them though.
>Abrasive paper
try the blue hand held belt sander belts that we been talking about lately if you go in for the scary sharp method.
The black/ gray wet or dry is for polishing not metal removal. The red abrasive is ok like Michael Dunbar recommends.
The way to go is diamond and then waterstones like Joel7 says
Zol,
I am not prescribing a method for you-merely telling you what I do, since I have reason to either hone these A2 blades as they are or grind a different angle and then hone them.
I use an Eclipse honing guide since they are all bevel up use.
I use a DMT plate (1200 I think) to hone the initial bevel and start a slight crown or camber.
I then use a Kingstone 1200 not with water but with kerosene and leave it at that.
If I want to delude myself that it needs to be sharper I use either a black German origin waterstone which is very hard, or a Chinese water stone.
I have a Norton Pike oilstone which also works fine but I prefer to use the others mentioned mainly because they are wider.
Any of these stones benefit greatly from a conditioning or dressing with a coarse diamond plate-keeps them flat and more importantly, cutting crisply.
Honing these A2 blades from new takes me on average about ten minutes, because I am going slowly.
Anyone who tells you that Veritas A2 blades can't come up VERY sharp, or are hellish hard, is uninformed. Trust me.Philip Marcou
Edited 11/4/2008 2:21 am by philip
Zolton,
I have not noticed any difference when working with A-2, as opposed to more typical high carbon steels, when it comes to sharpening. For what it is worth, below is my schedule for sharpening.
Grind on a hand cranked grinder.
Hone on a nearly 30 year old Norton Combination India stone (all honing done with mineral oil as a lubricant)
Finish hone on 800, 1000, 1500 and 2000 grit wet and dry paper
Lap with some diamond paste on a block of cherry.
Sounds like a lot of steps, but it goes very quickly.
I do seem to have trouble with high speed steel lathe tools; they almost feel gummy.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Hi Zolton
I suspect that the problem might lie with you attempting to hone the full face of the bevel. LV offer a couple of choices of blade angles for their BU planes, 25/38/50 degrees ... and some choose these because they believe it is a shortcut to obtaining the desired cutting angle.
The problem is that a full face is too much steel to work with.
If the blade was in a bevel down plane, I'd recommend that you hollow griund the face and honed a microbevel at some approximate angle. For a bevel up plane, one needs to be more accurate (not obsessionally so) and close to the angle desired (since this is how BU planes get the cutting angle). However I would never recommend that you purchase the 38- and 50-degree blades.
I would only recommend a 25 degree bevel, and that you add a secondary bevel (of the angle you choose) to this using a honing guide. Done this way, the amount of steel to remove is minimal, and you could hone it happily with just about any media you choose.
This issue is even more relevant if you want a camber on the BU blade. Here is a link to an article I wrote demonstrating why and what to do ..
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheSecretToCamberinBUPlaneBlades.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
Zol,
Further to what I said and on reading what others say here: what angle blade do you have and what angle are you honing at?
I have a few planes with the A-2 irons. I use the waterstones that Lee Valley sells. They came in a kit with the stone pond and honing guide. I have not had to much trouble with them except when I have wanted to reshape the bevel. Then it was a work out. Now I have a norton 220x and life is easier. Personallly I prefer the O-1 blades. They feel nicer to sharpen. Not sure what I mean, but they just feel nicer.
Derek
Many thanks to all who wrote to answer my query about honing the Veritas A-2 steel plane blade in a bevel-up smoother! Lots of good advice here, and I'll look things over, maybe make a couple of purchases - diamond plate and waterstones - and get to work.
Derek, I wish I would have read your treatment on cambering bevel-up plane blades before I purchased the 38 degree bevel blade. I can see, now, the wisdom of going with the 25 degree one. You're right in that trying to remove steel from that broad bevel surface is pretty time-consuming. Oh well, that's what grinding wheels are for, eh? Your camber honing guide illustrated in the article is pure genius in its simplicity. I'm headed out to the shop this morning to put together something similar.
Again, thank you to those who took the time to help me out on this. It will be yet another step on the journey...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Hi Zolton,
Before you invest heavily in more stones(as I did), you might try a couple of those micro-abrasive sheets from Lee Valley first. I find them fast cutting and they are what I reach for first. I don't really know what hardness my blades are, but I find these are excellent for sharpening. I have also used them on crankshafts and axles.
Ed
Ed,
Thanks. I might try those sheets first. I'm so broke right now I can't even pay attention, so I'm always looking to save a bit...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
From what I have observed of A-2, is it isn't any harder that other tool steels, it's much tougher. The toughness makes it harder to sharpen, since the A-2 great wear resistance is making it tougher to sharpen.
Philip and Derek know a heck of a lot more than I ever will about these things, but for what it's worth here's my method:
1) Lap back on 1000 grit waterstone using ruler trick until I get a burr all across the bevel.
2) Remove burr on bevel.
3) Lap back on 6000 grit waterstone using ruler trick until I get a burr all across the bevel.
4) Remove burr on bevel.
5) If I've got notches on the blade (from bad usage of the shooting board for example), I use a coarse DMT stone to hone the primary bevel with an MKII guide. Otherwise skip to next step.
6) Hone the bevel on the 1000 grit waterstone with the guide until I get a burr all across the back.
7) Remove burr on back with 4000 grit waterstone.
8) Hone the bevel on the 4000 grit waterstone with the guide until I get a burr all across the back.
9) Remove burr on back with 4000 grit waterstone.
10) Hone the micro-bevel on the 4000 grit waterstone with the guide until I get a burr all across the back.
11) Remove burr on back with 4000 grit waterstone.
That's it. After this I can shave easily. Takes me a half hour to do an LV A2 blade. When doing smaller blades for chisels, block planes, etcetera, I go free hand, but with the A2 blades of this size it's actually easier to load up the guide. The ruler trick is key to your sanity.
Best of luck,
---Pedro
Takes me a half hour to do an LV A2 blade.
Hi Pedro
I agree that the Ruler Trick is a valuable strategy with blades where their backs are not flat. It saves a lot of time that would be given to flattening. However, I do not expect to hone a BU blade in as long a period of time as you do. I can get it down to 3 minutes if I am going from the time I take the blade out of a plane to replacing it and resuming planing. More importantly, I can maintain the edge in seconds by stropping the back - which I could not do if I used the Ruler Trick. I avoid the Ruler Trick if I can.
My guidelines:
1. The LV BU blades are Flat (with a capital F). THey do not require a ruler trick. Prepare the back by honing up to the level you would finish the bevel. In my case this could be a 12000 Shapton. Thereafter, only use a 12000 or the strop on the back of the iron, never anything coarser.
2. Using a blade with a 25 degree primary bevel set the honing guide up for your secondary bevel. In my case this may be a LV Honing Guide Mk II at 50 degrees.
3. Hone a microbevel on a 1000 stone (this means stop when you feel a wire edge). Remove the wire edge on the 12000 (Note - this is done with the blade still in the honing guide).
If you plan to add a fine camber, do it now. All it takes is a 2 or 3 strokes to each side of the blade. Feel for the wire edge at the ends. Remove on the 12000.
4. Keeping the angle the same, hone on the 5000 waterstone (this is actually optional at this stage. Since you really only have a microbevel, there is so little steel to remove that you could go to the 12000 instead). Check for a change in scratches and a fresh wire edge. Remove the wire edge on the 12000.
5. Repeat with the 12000 stone. Remove the wire edge. Done!
Maintaining an edge is more important as this is used for longer than the original sharpening. A BD blade is easier to freehand - I use Veritas green rouge (mixed with a little baby oil) on a hard leather strop - just wipe both sides of the blade on it. A BU blade, with its micro/secondary bevel, is more complicated. You want to maintain the bevel angle, so freehanding it is risky. A micro back bevel gets in the way.
What I do is to strop only the back of the (non ruler tricked) blade. This removes any wear bevel and refreshes the edge. It is amazing how long you can go this way.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 11/5/2008 12:19 am ET by derekcohen
Hi Derek,
Well, 3 minutes sounds a heck of a lot better than 30. I imagine experience counts for a bit of that difference. I also don't do the entire process every time I sharpen, typically I can skip the lapping part. But every so often, when I notch the blade on a shooting board for example, I do the whole works. Two notes:1) With regards to lapping, I followed Lee's book and video, lapping until I saw a honed surface all along the edge of the back. This took several lifetimes. Perhaps my blades (all Veritas) weren't as flat as yours, or perhaps (more likely) I did something wrong. In any case, when I did the ruler trick I got that honed surface all along the edge of the back in no time at all. 2) I recently got back in the shop and took down all six of my planes and sharpened them in about three hours. There were notches in several of the blades (one blade took two hours to sort out). Always from planing end grain (oak). To be honest, I can't figure out where I'm going wrong, but on a shooting board this always happens. I've watched countless videos of Cosman and others and I don't see the difference between their technique and mine. Anyway, I followed Philip's advice and stopped using the shooting board. Now I use the Marcou on a well secured board, or my LN edge plane. Because of the cutting angle the latter tends to work best. The Jointer with the 25 degree blade squeals like a pig (literally) when I try using it like this so I don't. Any tips?Best regards,
---Pedro
Takes me a half hour to do an LV A2 blade.
Anyone that knows me knows I dislike A2 plane blades. But I have owned a few modern planes with A2 blades, including LN and LV models. Great planes, hate A2 plane blades.
But if any plane blade ever took me longer than 2 minutes to sharpen, I think I would shoot myself.
I have used several types of sharpening mediums in my life. None of them ever took longer than that to blow and go--including those A2 blades.
I'm not a fan of the so-called ruler trick. I have used it and will continue to use it on blades of vintage planes that are too pitted to lap out. But on a newish blade? Nope. Not for me.
I'll readily admit that I am not really into ubber sharpening for sharpening's sake.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
I couldn't agree more; sharpening should be a quick, second nature process, to be gotten out of the way, so you can get back to work.
One thing that will always amaze me, is how two woodworkers, can see thing so differently. I really like A-2 blades in my planes. I bought one of the high carbon aftermarket blades from a well known maker, and found it no better than the Stanley blades that came with my planes (even the questionable ones from the 70's). I then had some A-2 blades made for my planes, before they were common on the market. I was very impressed and still am with these blades; they take and hold and hold and hold an incredible edge.
I will admit, I wasn't as impressed with the LN blades at first, but after grinding back a bit, they now preform equal to the blades I had made. I could never warm to the A-2 LN chisels, and I'm glad I only bought one ( perhaps I got a bad one, but it is prone to chipping, in even moderately dense wood).
Rob Millardhttp://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Hi Rob,
I think my dislike (OK, hate was too strong a word) for A2 plane blades was due to using oil stones on heavily used blades. You know, those blades that one should have honed before it became actual sharpening (the removal of more steel, coarser starting grit, etc). But not so bad of shape of irons I walked over to the belt sander (my grinder of choice). The vintage steel, laminated blades, one could/can sharpen with less effort. I suppose because of the softer backer.
I've only had two Hock blades. Had one in a #6 that was decently cambered and one in a Bedrock 605. All my metal planes except that 605 are sold off--back to woodies. Guess I wanted my bench planes to "match" all the planes used for joints and decorative work I have. ;^) The 605 I kept because it was a dear friend's grandfather's plane. Point being, I guess I found that those two blades worked fine once ground back. Held a great edge. And they liked my oil stones.
When I had and used Shaptons for a few years there was no appreciable difference in honing anything. Never tried the more exotic metals (remember when A2 was considered exotic?).
I have specified A2 plane blades because I have never have tried the LN chisels or the D2 Ray Iles pig stickers. 'Fraid I have a bunch of early straight-sided firmers, some 1960s era Marples bevel edge, and various maker mortise chisels. (OK, I do have a few other chisels too, but none are other than plain HC or laminated oldies.)
All,
My general method is to leave a stone on my bench. With this stone I hone edges during use. Rarely do I take an edge to what I would consider failure, but it happens. If it is bad enough, I hit the edge on a belt sander because the grinder is further away. Then I hit a coarser stone than the one I leave on my bench. Maybe 5-10 strokes. Then the finer stone I mentioned.
If that 60 seconds hasn't been enough of a rest (or it is a smoother and i am on a final surface) then I also strop on a board I smear goop on. The board is simply a 3/8" thick piece of QS Makore I had left over (well, I still have about 1k bd ft). The goop various depending on what I have. Mostly it is either the green bar of honing stuff or some Simichrome. So that takes another X number of seconds.
The edges that take more care and thought are the skewed blades, the molding planes, the panel planes etc. Those do take me more time. As much is needed, but if all they need is honing during use, well, it doesn't take long.
Now, because I exaggerate by nature, I didn't kill a stopwatch in the making of this message. Times may be further than they appear in the mirror and all that. The point to the ramble, while I drink my first cup of coffee this morning, is that sharpening should never be onerous. If it is, I think one might be either unproductive in their efforts *or* might be taking sharpening further than needed in the way of too many steps.
Well, before I hang myself for butting into this thread, I better go to work.
Take care. Mike
"if any plane blade ever took me longer than 2 minutes to sharpen, I think I would shoot myself."Certainly, I've considered it. To remove frustration I'd rather shoot my in-laws though. Kill two birds with one stone so to speak.
Pedro,
Thank you for the input about your methodology on sharpening. It sounds as though you're willing to go to a lot more work than am I to achieve a working edge. I'm sure you get great results. But I've got to get the blade sharp and back in the plane as quickly as possible so I can get back to that great upper body workout.
It's interesting to hear what different people have come up with in their sharpening protocols - from using abrasive paper to waterstones to whatever else. And everyone has a different technique for using those implements.
You mentioned the "ruler trick," and I was aware of that technique. However, I'm not sure it would work on a bevel-up blade. Creating a microbevel on the underside of the blade would mess with the geometry. And, if it didn't work, I'd hate to grind that big A-2 chunk back to get rid of the bevel I just created.
I have used the ruler trick with bevel-down blades with some success though.
Again, thanks for writing.
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Hi Zolton,
The cutting angle is set by the microbevel and the sole of the plane. The slight back bevel (1 degree?) on the BU blade will only make the edge a little tougher if anything.I probably do a lot more work than I will in a couple of years when I'm better at it. But I'd rather spend thirty minutes sharpening a blade right at the beginning of every project, than have to work with a dull blade, or do constant touch ups on it. Part of the problem is that I don't have a dedicated sharpening area. Every time I sharpen I have to clear my workbench (very small) and get all the stuff out, sharpen, and try mopping up all the water and swarf all over the place. Pain in the butt. If I had a dedicated setup, I'd be more likely to walk over and put a quick hone on a blade every so often. As it is, I probably wait too long between sharpenings, and that leads to the nicks that take so long to get out.
Best,
---Pedro
Pedro,
I hear you with the problem of not having a dedicated sharpening space in my shop! It's hard to designate a specific area for this task when space is at such a premium, but it's such an important task maybe I should be more proactice in setting something up.
One idea I had was to mount everything I needed to a piece of plywood (maybe laminated with plastic laminate for water resistance?), and then hang that somewhere on a wall. If something needed sharpening I'd just take the board down, grab a water bottle (for waterstones, when I get them! Or the tubs they'd be soaking in) off a shelf, and go to work.
With sharpening completed, I'd just hang the board back up and pick up where I left off.
Sounds so simple, yet why don't I do it? Ok, my next "shop" project...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Hi guys, new to knots, been viewing breaktime for a couple of months. Sharpening has always been a hobby of mine, but what is the ruler trick you guys speak of? I have never heard of it and would appreciate learning something new. Thanks
Spike,
Welcome to Knots. I like how you describe sharpening - a hobby!
The ruler trick is used to create a small back bevel on the blade in the case of a plane blade. You never use a back bevel on a chisel. After you sharpen the face of the blade, you place a stainless steel ruler on one edge of your sharpening stone and lap the back of the blade, resting the blade on the ruler so that only the cutting edge is touching the stone. This effectively reduces the amount of time needed to remove the wire burr. Hope that's clear. This is a case where a picture is worth a thousand words. After I typed all this, I found this wonderful picture which a quick internet search.
View ImageChris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"However, I'm not sure it would work on a bevel-up blade. Creating a microbevel on the underside of the blade would mess with the geometry."
It will have no significant effect on geometry. The steel ruler, or whatever thin sliver of metal is used only adds a degree or so , so you can calculate the effect if you remember some basic geometry.
However, I would say it is better to stay flat, and only use this dodge if the blade is pitted or not easy to keep flat enough on the stone to remove that burr.Philip Marcou
Pedro,
If I have the choice, I use O1 blades in my planes because they are quicker to sharpen. However, I have used and sharpened my fair share of A2 blades and from my experience, I feel that the biggest difference is in sharpening, rather than honing. It takes significantly longer to regrind the tool - either to change the bevel angle or to grind out a nick.
However, when it comes to honing, I find very little differnce in time spent. Remember than if an edge is in good shape (still pointy, not nicked, but not catch-your-fingernail sharp), only the microbevel needs to be touched up and the resulting wire burr removed. I usually start at 8000x, the same grit I finish on. If the edge has folded over, I'll go back to 4000x or 1200x first. If the edge is in good shape, I simply place the blade on my stone, bevel down, then raise the back of the blade to work on the microbevel. Experience will tell you how much to raise the blade for that 1-2 degree microbevel. I draw the blade towards me about five times, then turn the blade over and lap off the wire burr in about three strokes (no ruler). Then I wipe off the blade and start using it again.
I recently demonstrated this technique and asked my one-man audience to count how long it take for me to remove the blade from a LA plane, hone the edge, and reinstall and set the plane. He was so amazed at how quick I was able to work, he forgot to start counting. Anyways, it was about 40 seconds. It should not take any more than 5 minutes to get a razor sharp blade, unless the is severly damaged or the back needs to be flattened.
By the way, now that you've used the ruler trick and created a back bevel, you cannot remove the wire burr on the back by lapping the blade flat on the stone until you remove the back bevel.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hi Chris,
Perhaps I'm being overzealous. Next time the blade starts to seem dull, I'll just give the microbevel a once over as you suggest and see how it goes. My early sharpening efforts were so disappointing that I started going through the whole long process every time. Once I got this to work very well, I was reluctant to change anything. I'll try economizing and see what happens.
Thanks,
---Pedro
p.s. How long does it take you to sharpen a dovetail saw? How often do you do that?
Sharpening a dovetail saw? About 20 seconds, as follows. Loosen screw holding blade in place, remove blade and back from handle, remove the dull blade from the back, insert new blade into back, insert assembly back into handle, tighten screw. Someday I might attempt to sharpen a dozuki, but not now! (Do they sell saw sets that will set teeth that fine?)Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
For those of us with a LN (or similar) DT saw...
Can't help you there Pedro.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Everyone, but especially Pedro who is worrying me when he talks of nicks in his plane blades, as these are normally associated with carpenters and rough building work....
I am unable to understand why it is so often said that A2 "takes longer to sharpen, because of increased wear resistance/toughness whatever etc etc". I see no added difficulty at all in honing this stuff, ditto with grinding it (if I had to grind with a bench grinder).The only difference I note, which is immaterial anyway, is that the steels feel different on the stone-more "crispy" in the case of O1- of no consequence at all.
I can think of the following reasons why some people think A2 or steels other than O1 are "extra work" to hone:-
1)A2 is commonly associated with thicker blades i.e a lot thicker than traditional Stanley types therefore those folk who hone one bevel i.e hone at the same angle that the blade is ground at, have much more metal to abrade -takes more time and effort, because the blade is much thicker in the first place.
That is why one is (or was) taught to "grind at 25 and hone at 30 degrees". Or, as a rule, hone at 5 degrees more than you grind at. So the initial hone only makes a very thin secondary bevel and takes literally one or two minutes to do-in any steel including high speed steels .Subsequent honings take a little longer each time as the width of that bevel increases-assuming one maintains the same angle and does not keep raising the blade....
Honing on a hollow grind can be regarded as a middle of the road approach-but it is not long before the hollow goes and you are honing the whole bevel, and anyway you are honing two bevel lines until they merge to become one.
So after a number of honings the honing bevel gets to almost or the same width as the grind bevel, and the iron should then be reground at say 25 degrees, just short of the edge. That is the main reason for grinding-not to remove nicks or chips hopefully. I really would like to know why Pedro gets nicks .....In fact I am cringeing...
2) The other reason I can think of may be associated with the type and state of the stones used, and I am not including diamond plates in this instance. Since there are so many differing types, both natural and man-made, some will be more suited than others to deal with the more "complicated " steels.
Whatever the case, just about any stone will be improved by regular conditioning or dressing-same as a grinding wheel-how come this principle is well known to engineers but often lost to woodworms?? I discovered late in life the value of a cheap coarse diamond plate (therefore polycrystalline) for keeping them flat but more importantly conditioning them so that they cut well . There is no doubt that this is superior to using dressing sticks, bricks, or worse, abrasive papers or belts which are likely to have a glazing effect-but do improve oilstones in particular which have not been dressed for 50 years or so...
This does not mean that one requires a new stone every five minutes-in fact stones will last longer since less time is spent honing, certainly with less pressure....
So I remain unconvinced, but nonetheless able to pander to the whims of the masses by making and or providing my planes with a choice of the three most popular steels out there used by woodworms: they are all fine for the job assuming the heat treatment was done correctly.Philip Marcou
I offer these past posts: 40601.14; 42260.5That 8000 diamond stone is wearing in now so I don't bther with the 10,000 micrgrit paper no more. Sometimes I hone freehand a less-than-purfeck blade with a bit of leather impregnated with camelia oil and the Tormek honing paste. Half a dozen drag-backwards acros this leather seems get a sharp A2 edge back to very sharp in no time. I give the back a rub or three with it too.I don't get nicks unless I plane something with a bit of ingrained dirt of a very hard kind. Some timbers, such as teak and iroko, can have very hard calcite or silicate bits in them that seem to blunt a sharp edge slightly rather than nick it, after a fair bit of planing. Perhaps it's the blunting in the "brittle" A2 that then causes a "nick" (a bit breaks off under the impact)?***In all events - significant nicks are rare and freehand honing before the blade becomes anywhere near blunt takes very little time to put back a scary sharp edge.LataxeEdited 11/7/2008 5:22 am ET by Lataxe
Edited 11/7/2008 7:19 am ET by Lataxe
I imagine I get nicks because I'm new at this and do goofy things. There are two situations where I've gotten bad nicks:
1) Trying to thickness a walnut board with knots in it. The shavings were naturally thick to get the size down, and I put nice knicks in buth my scrub plane and my LV BU 25 degree jointer blades.2) Any time I've tried to use a shooting board to plane endgrain. I can take the lightest shaving and spend hours, or eventually loose patience and take a thicker shaving and get notches. When I plane endgrain with the wood in a vice, I'm able to take thicker shavings without notches and without any problem, but my workbench sucks and I can't always get a good clamp on every piece of wood to do this. It also makes the planes squeal like pigs to slaughter on certain boards. This happens particularly with the LV BU Jointer.The jointer is great for jointing, and at the time I thought I was manly enough to use it as a jack. I regret that choice. I wish I had a jack instead. I almost never find myself planing a length of wood that benefits from the #7. So now I use your plane for almost everything (dimensioning, edges, endgrain, final smoothing, etc...), which is great, except the thing weighs nine pounds! So perhaps I wasn't as manly as I thought when I opted for a jointer instead of a jack, but after using your plane for a couple years I should have arms like a mountain gorilla.Incidentally, I only get notches in blades honed to 25 degrees. The other two A2 blades I have are at 35 and 50 degrees, and they don't notch. Of course, dimensioning with an effective cutting angle of 55-70 degrees helps develop those gorilla arms as well.I've got a LN BD #5 on my Christmas list, but with the economy the way it is, I don't think I'll get it :(
---Pedro
>>I draw the blade towards me about five times, then turn the blade over and lap off the wire burr in about three strokes (no ruler). <<
Chris,
I feel like a dummy asking this, but your description gave me one of those head-slap moments. I've always sharpened by pushing the blade away from me. That's probably why I never seem to get much of a wire edge. Although it seems like one would accomplish the same thing either way, have I been sharpening incorrectly? Does everyone else draw the blade back? Thanks for your enlightenment.
Grant
Does everyone else draw the blade back?
Hi Grant
No. I move the blade sideways.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Grant
In case you thought I was being flippant about honing sideways - which I was not - I largely hone freehand with a side sharpening technique. That is for chisels and BD plane blades where I work with a hollow ground bevel face.
For BU planes I use a honing guide to create an accurate secondary bevel. The Veritas Mk II does not run sideways :) When using it with high bevel angles (such as 50 degrees) I run backwards since high angles like this have a tendency to cause the bevel edge to dig into a waterstone (or other media).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Grant,
The only reason I draw the blade backwards is that I am doing this freehand. If I were to push the blade forwards, the blade would want to catch the stone and dig in. Not good. If you are using a honing guide, go whichever way you like, or both ways.
If you push, it will take much longer to achieve a wire burr, if you get one at all. That's not a problem as long as you get a sharp edge. However, when drawing the blade backwards or when going back and forth, a wire burr IS produced and is a clear-cut indication that the edge of the blade has been worked.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
grant,
Yankee name, that. Anyways,
My old shop teacher Mr. Wood (no joke) advocated a figure eight motion on the sharpening stone. I was 14 when he taught me that, an impressionable youth, and it stuck with me for years and years. Then I read Walden, and taking Thoreau to heart ("simplify, simplify, simplify"!), I went from a figure eight to a circular motion on the stone. Works for me. A bit of backwards, forwards, and side to side (Derek), for good measure. Wears the stone more evenly too- march back and forth across the whole length and width...
Ray
Hi Ray
That sounds about right to me. While I think of it as sideways, it is really sideways and diagonal. If one looks at Joel's (TFWW) video, you will see him do the same. In his case, more diagonal than sideways, but both still the same. There is a lot of that in a circular movement as well.
This sideways/diagonal movement is something that I discovered for myself, then discovered others had discovered it before me, and then I discovered the DVD by Harrelson Stanley in which he discovered it. This was followed by his honing guide, another discovery (actually, it is quite good): http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Side%20Sharpening%20and%20The%20Sharp%20Skate.html
We all get to the same place eventually. :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Generally speaking the same properties that make A-2 hold an edge longer also make it harder to sharpen, therefore many folks will put off the job longer and therefore have a much more dubbed edge when beginning the sharpening process which means it becomes even more work. This is why many so plane makers, myself included, have gone back to high carbon steel. It takes a wonderful edge and the user won't think twice about taking it out of the plane to give it a quick hone. That being said, A-2 can be made easier to live with and I think hollow grinding is the key, of course I think that hollow grinding makes almost any plane iron easier to sharpen, and in some cases eliminates the need for a honing jig, which is one of the things I really like about the hollow grind. It allows you concentrate pressure in the areas of the iron that are critical to creating a good edge and it gives you two points of reference in the which to index the iron. This makes free hand honing a very accurate process.
Sometimes simpler is better, I think this applies somewhat to sharpening.
Ron Brese
http://www.breseplane.com
Not sure if it has been mentioned, but shapton has recently worked with LN to develop a new line of stones designed specifically to sharpen A2 steel. It's the glasstone line and I can say they work quite well. Haven't timed myself but it sure doesnt take a half hour!
Chris
Chris,
Thanks for the recommendation for the Glasstone waterstones. They're one possible solution I've been looking into. I confess to a serious case of the staggers at the prices though.
In the meantime, I remembered a few days ago that I actually have some waterstones that I bought years back and had stored in a barn where I keep my "auxilliary" stuff. I retrieved them, washed off the dirt and animal leavings, and then started to put them to work.
It turns out that one is 800 grit and the other 1200. The Japanese labels were still on them. After a good soaking, I rubbed the 800 against the 1200 and got both pretty flat. Then I started to sharpen.
To my surprise, the 1200 stone cut the A-2 pretty well. It's too coarse for final sharpening, but just the fact that it was able to put lots of uniform scratches in the steel was encouraging. So, that's probably the way I'll go - to a finer grit waterstone (once I'm able to get past the sticker shock).
This has been an interesting discussion. There sure are a lot of different ways to put a sharp edge on a chunk of steel. It's interesting that I've been doing woodwork for almost three decades now, pretty successfully, yet in some respects lately I've been feeling like a complete amateur. After years of doing all right with oilstones and a brief foray into Scary Sharp methodology, the introduction of a new plane in my shop put squarely into focus that to an extent, technology has passed me by...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
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