The question I have is regarding sharpening. I have a set of Norton Water stones 220 – 1000 – 4000 – 8000 and a hand crank aluminum oxide wheel for hollow beveling the chisel. I then work them on the stones. Question being, why would anyone spend $300 – $1000 for a Tormek system or the new Jet system? Am I missing something?
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Replies
"why would anyone spend $300 - $1000 for a Tormek system or the new Jet system?"
Uh, . . . because they can?
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
"Am I missing something?"
Just tool envy.
If you can grind accurately on the hand wheel, that's all that matters and you're way ahead of the game! Lot's of ways to skin the cat.
Rich
Rich,
Thanks for the response. So am I to understand the only advantage to these machines, (besides all the high priced attachments) is the ability to lay a chisel on there and get an accurate bevel? Seems like there are a lot of quality woodworkers on this forum, which would leave me to believe they do a lot of sharpening by hand? Seems like they would save their money for other pieces of equipment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but after you use a Jet or Tormek to create the bevel, wouldn't you need to use stones to work the burr and the backside of the chisel? Seems like a lot of money for a bevel!
"Seems like a lot of money for a bevel!"
It depends how you want to look at it. The Tormek is a quality machine. It does an excellent job, quickly and accurately. A busy worker might say it actually saves him money.
There is nothing wrong with spending money on excellent equipment and delighting in the design and execution of good machinery.
There is also nothing wrong with being proud of being able to do the same task in a low-tech way.
As I said, lot's of ways to skin the cat.
Rich
Just out of curiosity, is your hand crank new or old/ebay? If older, do you find that new grinding wheels fit the old hardware? Thanks.
Well Santa brought me a Jet wet slow speed grinder. And I'am finding the machine very easy to use. Set up time is next to nothing. The slooow speed is very nice and not a chance of removing temper at all. I have found that the gouge grinding jig is not as nice as the tormek version but that it can be improved by drilling a small seat in the V bottom. Waiting for jet to come out with a 12" planer blade attachment, Tormek has one that will fit but it's about $150 but may go there anyway. The few chisles that I've sharpened are very happy and I can shave the back of my hand with them. I thanked Santa.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Most people, myself included, who have tried the Tormek jig for sharpening planer blades did not find that it worked very well, leaving an uneven edge.
John W.
Thanks, I'll stick with honing them in my 40 deg. kerfs in a block of wood. Maybe I'll get inventive and make up my own jig for planer and jointer knives using those on/off magnets.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I agree with you Bruce.
Low tech is also the way for me. I finally broke down and purchased a low speed grinder a few years ago; it cost about a hundred and twenty dollars or so. I grind and hone free hand, lubricating the honing stones with oil diluted with mineral spirits. I do final honing on an Arkansas stone that sits immersed in pure mineral spirits when not in use, mineral spirits being the only lubricant.
It is worth the effort to learn to sharpen and hone freehand. Simple homemade jigs work well for grinding longer knives and the freedom associated with the freehand style makes the learning curve worth every frustration along the way.
For those who care, a figure 8 sweep movement on a flat stone insures that the stone does not groove (it will eventually need a touch up) and the chisel comes out sharp.(of course, don't rock the chisel!) Adding a microbevel is also nice.
For carving tools, I follow a similar process, but I also finish with a bench grinder with a hard felt wheel charged with compound JL
Your post telling about how you soak your stone in mineral spirits reminds me of when I was a boy. (late 40s). My dad was a carpenter and would soak his stones in a pie pan about half full of kerosene (called coal oil back then). He would load the stones with as much oil as they would hold before removing them and storing them in his tool box. This keeps your stones clean and really makes them cut.
Wdrite,
You have given away my secret, but that's OK. I worked with older tradesmen in my formative years, and be it as it may, I haven't found any reason to change some of the things I picked up from them.
After reading a previous post from Mel I now am considering mortgaging the house and buying an electron microscope, so I can see if I really get a sharp chisel or not using my medieval sharpening techniques.
Like you Mel, I also drool and dream about the monster shop, but alas, a dream it shall remain. JL
John: the problem is that the universal support flexes. I've found a solution giving support to the free end. The little flex is not a worry when the object being sharpened is not wide, but when using the planer jig, this side movement makes the bevel uneven. As you see in the photo is a simple arrangement made out of copper tubing and normal coupling pieces. Works very well.
Edited 12/30/2006 1:34 pm ET by maesejuan
A clever solution. I haven't tried the Tormek jig in a couple of years but I'll set up ours with a support like yours and try it out.
John W.
that is a clever jig! perhaps a bleeder valve or boiler drain would help too...
I have one and its nice for curved tools (turning and carving). I'm not great at doing them freehand, particularly when trying to do a major reshaping. It works for plane blades and regular chisels as well but, if you're going to use it just for these tasks, it's probably overkill.
Matt
Welcome to the Woodman club! Seems to me that $1000 for a small piece of sharpening equipment is over priced. You can buy 400 lbs of table saw from Grizzly for that money.
Years ago I bought the Delta wet grinder, it has a huge wheel and is 2" in diameter. It costs $129.00 and I sharpen 10" planer blades with it, besides chisels and plane irons. I can get visually perfect bevels on my tools, what more can you ask for.
I think I am pretty good at sharpening, but I would not be able to do well if I had to turn the wheel and hold the tools at the same time.
Ever sharpen turning or carving tools? It's a different situation than a straight blade, especially if you are sharpening up several times a day. These expensive tools would get short in a hurry if you put them to an oxide wheel every time. A tool like the Tormek has a large diameter, wide, slow, water cooled wheel and a leather power strop. With a couple twists of the wrist you can touch up your edge while keeping it at a consistent angle. I wouldn't pay for one but if somebody wanted to give me one...
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Did you read my post? My 129 dollar Delta wet grinder seems pretty similar to the Tormek. I made my own sliding jig to sharpen 10" planer blades, making a jig for turning tools should be even easier.The Tormek seems too expensive to me, but I am really cheap!
I don't think you are missing anything. I have basically the same set up, but I use sand paper instead of stones. I get excellent edges in very little time, and I'm a fanatic about having sharp tools
. I bought one of little piece of junk Delta wet grinders for $29.99, to do carving tools, since the hand cranked grinder is harder to control when grinding delicate curved tools.
Sharpening is like dovetails, in that there is too much mystic attached to the process, and all sorts of jigs and fixtures are employed that only served to retard the learning process and slow you down.
Rob Millard
Hi Rob,Happy New Year.I agree completely with your statement:"Sharpening is like dovetails, in that there is too much mystic attached to the process, and all sorts of jigs and fixtures are employed that only served to retard the learning process and slow you down."To sharpen, I grind on a 6" bench grinder and then go straight to a bit of 2000# paper glued to a bit of scrap board.Teaching kids to cut a dovetail is hard because they all seem to think it's too difficult. Instead, I have them cut a box joint by hand, marking the second piece off the first, which is exactly the same process as cutting a dovetail. Then, I just show them that the perfectly acceptable joint they cut is done with the same method as dovetailing, and watch their eyes as they realise they *can* do it and it's not difficult.CHeers,eddie
Eddie and Rob,
Congratulations to both of you for putting a focus on how the mysticism that some woodworkers have put on sharpening and dovetails causes newbies to get nervous. We need more of that on Knots. There is a lot of talk about "heros" in the newspapers these days. I have decided to make you two "My Heros" for doing that brave deed. If anyone flames you for doing that, let me know, and I'll flame them back. :-)
Of course, that would be the first flame that I ever delivered.
Happy New Year.
Mel
PS - I keep trying to think of new ideas for USEFUL threads on Knots. I believe that one on "Demystifying fine woodworking practices" would be wonderful. Indeed, it could result in sufficient material for a very useful book, or at least a great article in FWW.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Keeping the craft mysterious has been part of the tradition of woodworking (and other trades) for hundreds of years. There is a line in most of the old apprentice contracts, to the effect that the master will teach the apprentice "the art and mystery" of the trade. Some scholars think that Moxon's book on 18th century English woodworking and building trades, Mechanic Exercises, was augmented with descriptions of continental European practices and tools, because his countrymen were not completely forthcoming with their trade secrets. This has continued to the present day. I remember from the early days of FWW, an interview with G Nakashima, wherein he scoffs at the up and coming generation of woodworkers (of which I was one), saying that they didn't even know how to keep their sharpening stones flat. But, he didn't share that knowledge with the readers of the magazine, either!
That's how we can keep our tender egos protected, and our self esteem intact, by assuming the mantle of superior, mystical knowledge. You won't try and take that away from us, surely?
Regards,
Ray
Edit: At the beginning of the book, "Steel Canvas", is the following quotation, from "Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden":
"The roots for this tradition are really very simple. The proper tempering of a blade was dependant on intently watching its changing color while under heat, then suddenly quenching in any one of several secret and usually appalling liquids or semi-liquids....The flickering lights, the moving shadows, and the rhythmic din of a forge in action convinced the man in the streeet that the swordsmith had some sort of pact with the forces of darkness. The Solingen guild made capital of this..."
Some things never change, esp. when it comes to the tempering of steel, apparently. Any attempt to remove the mystery, is even nowadays refuted by arguments by the annointed that you must be an initiate into the realm of science and engineering or one can't possibly begin to understand the process, even if you've been doing it successfully for years. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
Edited 1/4/2007 10:21 am ET by joinerswork
Ok, last question regarding sharpening. If I want to sharpen chisels only and I want to hollow bevel grind them, and then work them on my stones, will a slow speed dry grinder from woodcraft be OK?
Jeff
Hi Jeff,It'll be fine - you stand less chance of burning your tools while you learn, but it'll take a bit longer as a tradeoff.Cheers,eddie
By slow speed do you mean 1750 rpm or really slow like 90 rpm?
Rich
Thanks eddie,
Rich, I am speaking of 1750 RPM's with the pink oxide wheel.
I doubt you'll experience too much "problem" regarding slow grinding at that "slow" speed.
The whole topic of grinding and sharpening has entered a cult-like aspect and very slow speeds with white aluminum oxide wheels are all the rage. Friable aluminum oxide wheels are de riguer now and advocates would have one believe that even having a piece of tool steel in the same room with one of the (ugh) hard (grey) carborundum wheels will cause the tool to burn and loose temper.
One now hears that grinding at high speed (3750 rpm) and even 1750 rpm are sure-fired ways of ruining one's prized A2 cryogenically-treated cutting implements. Very slow speed wheels (100 rpm or there-abouts) running in a water bath are absolutely mandatory. One does not even dare use a gray wheel, known to glaze, generate heat and render tool steel absolutely worthless.
Gee. How did we ever grind tools before white wheels and slow-speed grinders dropped out of heaven for our use? And, don't look now, but pros, whose livlihood depends on getting work out the door use high speed, hard, tool-burning gray wheels all day long! What gives?
It's not easy to grind on a gray wheel. But once one learns how, that's how to get a lot of work done. The answer is that the wheel needs to be dressed often. Any wheel needs to be dressed often. The surface must be clean and true. A light touch is a must. The tool must not be allowed to heat, ever. Plunging the tool into water frequently because it's heating isn't the answer. It's the problem. That just fractures the metal.
For someone who doesen't practice the art (and it is an art) of sharpening/grinding every day on hard wheels, white aluminum oxide wheels are a big help in preventing burning the tool. But these wheels also must be dressed often. Burning is almost always the result of glaze on the wheel.
At 1750 rpm, it's easier to control the process and that slower speed is a very good compromise between loss of control/heating vs quicker results at 3750. But the 1750 rpm wheel must be kept dressed or glaze will cause all the problems of tool heating and burning that a gray wheel will cause. (Of course, things get out of control on a gray wheel in a blink of an eye. There's a lot of "wiggle room" with a 1750 white wheel) Conversely, the 3750 rpm white wheel, kept glaze-free is also unlikely to hurt any tool. A light touch is mandatory with any grinder.
Rich
Edited 1/4/2007 3:00 pm ET by Rich14
Hi Ray,The mysterious liquid include horse urine. I think that's where the 'appaling' part came from in part.I'd rather that than an 18th century and before Samurai sword. The chosen method of quench had two legs and was called a prisoner of war. Some ate stones as the final act of defiance.Cheers,eddie
Edited 1/4/2007 2:20 pm by eddiefromAustralia
eddie mate,
Horse urine? You mean I'm not supposed to pee in the barrel when I visit the blacksmith shop??!! No body told me it was just for the horses to use...
Weygers' book tells of native craftsmen quenching machete`s by pressing the edge only into some kind of fruit, a mango maybe. The edge was hardened, while the back cooled slowly, and remained softer, giving toughness to the blade. Seems a bit more humane than the samurai, but only if you are not a mango.
Ray
Ah so, Master Ray!Thou hast devined the innermost secrets of the Brotherhood Of The Dust. These secrets, as well as the secret handshake (which only requires three working fingers) must be guarded closely. My apprenticeship was not as long as yours, but it was a long time before I was allowed to don the sacred "Plaid Shirt" before entering the Temple of The Dust. (This was before dust collection systems.)Unfortunately my wife would not let me continue with my learning at the Temple because she did want me bringing bottles of urine into the house, which, as you know, are necessary for some rituals. She said that when I mixed it with the hot boiled linseed oil, it stunk up the basement. So I joined the local woodworkers guild. The guild's shaman came to my house to bless my tools. I was told that after the blessing (which was done for only a nominal cost), the tools would be much less prone to go out of adjustment. Since the blessing, I have noticed almost no change in the flatness of my table saw, so it must have worked. As a result of all of this, I am planning to become more and more involved in the mysteries, the enigmas (which I used to think were machines for coding messages) and mysticisms of woodwork. Indeed, I am thinking of enhancing the opaqueness of these phemonena by intertwining them with the mysteries of weight loss self-help psychology. I am thinking of selling a special drink that will both enable you to lose weight and cut dovetails with confidence. I have contacted Dr. Phil about inaugurating a TV show which uses a woodworking psychologist to help you improve your interpersonal skills and increase your sharpening abilities -- by only talking things out!!! I may talk to Mike Berger about making some new rules. You may remember reading about the time the ancient Greeks outlawed the public utterance of any irrational number. Since that time, irrational numbers have enjoyed vastly more mysticism than rational numbers. It may be that we can increase mysticism in woodworking if Mike actually outlaws discussions concerning sharpening, dovetailing, and the art of tuning hand planes.One of the things that is unfortunately reducing the level of mystery in woodworking is the electron microscope, which let everyone see that sandpaper yields sharper edges than the Tormek. Allowing everyone to know these things is really demystifying the sacred practices of woodworking. Electron Microscopes must be outlawed. I have been designing new woodworking outfits to increase the mystification of woodworking. Unfortunately I was using hoods and long flowing robes with drooping sleeves. I need to make some changes for safety reasons. But they look quite Merlin-esque.Until then, keep the mantel of the dark secrets flying high!
Also, we must also increase the use of humor in woodworking! :-)
MelPS - by the way, I was working with others to change the name "Knots" to "The Brotherhood", but Forestgirl nixed the idea. I have given up on this approach, since "The Siblinghood" just doesn't have the right ring.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I like the robe idea. Maybe you can make them out of kevlar, like the chaps that foresters wear when using their chainsaws. The fibers will instantly bog down the blades when they make contact. Sort of a portable "sawstop".
The first day on my new job at Va Craftsmen, I met the shop foreman, Buck Miller. I had been hired by one of the owners of the company the week before. I walked up to Buck and introduced myself to him, stuck out my hand. I got the 3 fingered handshake right there. I found out later that he'd had an accident sending a piece thru the shops big drum sander. He'd carelessly let his two middle fingers get caught between the workpiece and the shroud above the conveyer belt. It pulled them off. He was missing the index finger of his left hand as well, to a bandsaw mishap. He was a woodworker of the old school.
Ray
Delightful Post!
manso,
I'd say thanks, but I can't talk to you until you learn the handshake.
Cheers,
Ray
Would it be possible to post a pic of your jig? I try to sharpen my planer blades, but havent had much luck with a good jig.
Thanks for the pics, I think I have it figures out. Looks like an efficent system. Do you only use stones?
Sounds good to me. I gave up on stones and only use paper on glass, and followed by a strop with green jewelers rouge. I find it fast and sure. I will try to make a planer jig. and give that a try.
OK, let me throw my questions out there as well, since we're on the topic of sharpening.I've been playing with both water stones and sandpaper for sharpening. So far the finest stone I have is 4000 grit, and the finest sandpaper I have is 1500. Near as I can figure this equates to a particle size of about 13 microns for the sandpaper, and 2 microns for the stone.Everything I read says that I should have a "mirror" finish on the back of my plane blades and chisels. Just how truly shiny and scratch free should I be shooting for? I can get a decent shine but I still see scratches on the metal. Is this OK, or do I really need to become some sort of polishing maniac and go for an absolutely smooth unblemished surface?"Light the lamp, not the rat! Light the lamp, not the rat!!"
Rizzo the Rat, A Muppet Christmas Carol
If you've got a mirror shine with a few deeper scratches, the probable cause is stray particles of large grit that were either embedded in the finer paper or stones because of poor quality control by the manufacturer, or the particles were a contaminant transferred onto the finer paper or stones after they were in your shop.
To try to remove the deep scratches with the fine grades of abrasive will take forever. You either need to go back several grades and remove enough metal to get rid of the deeper scratches before going back to the finer grades, or you can make some furniture and not worry about it because it really makes very little difference.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Think of friction, the more scratches you have on your blade, the more friction you have, the harder it will be to push it. So a polish needs to be as fine as you can. The purist will scream, but I use worn out paper to do my final polish, and then a leather strop; its not quite a mirror, but it cuts like a hot damn.
ptu,
Seems to me, the more scratches, the less surface area in contact with the wood, the less friction. Like those stanley planes with the corrugated soles. Ever had twoperfectly flat surfaces feel like they have a suction going on between them? Let's hear it for scratches!
Tongue in cheek, ;-P
Ray
well you are right, so how does teflon work?
ptu,
I wouldn't recommend teflon coating on a chisel, it'd slide across the wood, instead of cutting. Make a pretty good sole for a plane though.
Ray
Let us sing in unison,
''A teflon plane has no soul'', in the key of G for g..dammit, what will they think of next papa? :-) JL
Woodman2263,
You had one of the best questions that I have ever seen on Knots. You stated it simply. You got two great responses from Rob Millard and Eddie from Australia. They talked about the mysticism of certain woodworking processes which engender fear on the part of newbies (and some oldbies).
How long have you been on Knots? Let me begin by stating that I think that Knots is the best (and cheapest) way to learn the methods and techniques of fine woodworking that exists in this world (other than at in the shop of an experienced woodworker). BUT, Knots has a culture, which is the weighted sum of the values of its constituents. I have come to believe that most (not all) are older and fairly well to do. ((This is not a bad thing!! Heck being older and well to do are two requirements for buying a Harley!)) This brings about a focus on "THE BEST TOOLS". One of your responses mentioned "Tool Envy". ((this too is not inherently a bad thing)). Stop to think that there is a guy named Holtey who sells handplanes for $8000 apiece!!!!! WOW. The Tormek is relatively speaking, very cheap. ((well, maybe not in the class of Harbor Freight).
Many of the threads on Knots focus on which tool is the "best", without any regard for whether the delta cost of slightly more quality (or perceived quality) is really worth it. ((If you are Bill Gates, who cares if a sharpening machine costs a measily $150,000. Heck, you'd just put it next to your CNC machine and your laser scanner and your electron microscope. How can you tell if your tool is sharp without an electron microscope? Every shop should have one.)
I actually like, enjoy and profit from these discussions of Lie Nielsen versus Lee Valley, and Ashley Ailes versus Two Cherries, etc. They are great fun and very enlightening. Of course, I have seen really good woodworkers do magnificent work with Marples chisels and reborn Stanley planes.
I guess that I am just rambling -- not complaining -- about the nature of the culture of Knots. While I have not fully embraced the idea of wanting all of the most expensive tools (I drool over them), but I am still hobbled by my blue collar upbringing. I still seek to learn how to do things at a reasonable cost. But then again I drool over the beauty of the $8000 Holtey plane (and the $2000 Marcou plane, etc). I guess that I am doomed to a life of being pulled in two directions at once.
My hope is to hit the lottery, and then buy another building for a shop, get two each of the most expensive tools, and then get personal knowledge of whether they are "worth it", all the while drooling over their sheer beauty, and gloating over my ownership of "the best tools". Meanwhile I am very happy doing pretty good (and constantly improving) woodwork without a Tormek. I use sandpaper.
Happy New Year to a like-minded woodworker!
Enjoy.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I use 2 diamond plates and a leather strop for all of the sharpening for plane irons and chisels for a lot less than $100 and it gets the job done very well.
Metod,
I agree that understanding is a good thing. However I believe that in the real world, (as opposed to, say, academia, or the online forum) getting the job done is more important than analyzing endlessly over what is the best way to do it. So what if I'm not getting a mirror polish (for instance) on my chisel? Will it not cut well if there are a few scratches? Can I not polish it some more, when I sharpen it the next time after I use it?
Maybe that's why, in the workshop, it is a matter of "Here kid, lemme show you how to do this," instead of "I'll be acting as the facilitator of today's discussion"? Often "that's how I was taught," translates into: "This is the way that has evolved as being the most efficient, in this shop."
I worked at three different shops before striking out on my own. Amazingly, each shop had its own way of doing things, "The right way!" All three got the work out, in their own way, to their own standards.
Regards,
Ray
Metod,
I was brought up in the "G-D-m it boy, gimme that, if ya want anything done right around here, ya gotta do it yerself", child teaching method. But even the best teachers I had on the job, didn't spend a lot of time on the " why " of things, more on the how.
Ray
Ray and Metod,
Getting it done so that it is what the client wants, in the time that will allow the materials and overhead to paid and still leave a little profit for the person taking the risk of having the shop in the first place is what it is all about in commercial work. Yes, if the chisel is not quite polished enough, but it still cuts cleanly, then let's get on with it and produce some furniture.
All the tradesmen I know that are worthy of the title sharpen their hand tools daily...so what's a little micro-scratch between friends? I appreciate your pragmatic approaches. JL
Metod,
Well there's no doubt that I benefitted from being around some excellent craftsmen. And I also read a lot.
Ray
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