Replies

1. 
   oldusty | Dec 08, 2008 06:28pm | #1

      Morning Frosty ,

               Funny how that works with friends , usually they say something to me like hey, no hurry just do it in your spare time ( whatever that is )

         First off let me say that hyde glue may very well have been used when the piece was built but the option is yours to use the glue of your choice , any of them should work .

         I see mostly adding some glue blocks as a good way to reinforce this piece , as far as the knuckle hinge I can't tell exactly how bad it is but it certainly can be re worked .

         For the curved areas that need to be clamped try a band clamp or the old Indian rope trick . I have had to make clamp cauls  or shaped parts to aid in clamping .I definitely would set some corner glue blocks under the table top.

         good  luck         dusty

2. 
   bigfootnampa | Dec 08, 2008 06:40pm | #2

   I believe that there IS damage from the poor practice of screwing the top to the skirt.  It shows up where the rear apron is pulled away from it's proper position.  I'd pull all those screws and reattach the top with buttons into slot mortises.  Then you can reclamp the rear apron and reglue it.  One of the smaller miller dowels might be useful there or (better I think) some small brads (installed at opposing angles).

1. 
   Jfrostjr | Dec 09, 2008 04:48pm | #16

   I would like to replace the current attachment system - but, as others advise, this would "degrade the value of the piece". Thanks - and please see my comments elsewhere.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922

3. 
   trialnut | Dec 08, 2008 06:59pm | #3

   For the hinge repair you may be able to line the parts up where they belong and just drill out the dowel with a larger bit, then insert a new larger dowel. If presently 3/8 then go up to 1/2. Would still look original.

   I would stick with hide glue so you don't run into any bonding issues with the existing glue. It's hard to remove all the old glue without changing the size of the parts. With hide you don;t need to get all the old stuff off.

   Rich

   The Professional Termite

4. 
   TaunTonMacoute | Dec 08, 2008 07:15pm | #4

   A quality repair can often be more difficult than building the thing in the first place.

   Butt, meet sling. You need to back out of this as gracefully as you can.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 12/8/2008 2:42 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute

5. 
   jako17 | Dec 08, 2008 07:59pm | #5

   Firstly I would use hide glue for all the glue up.On the top make shaped cauls to clamp it.I think that on an antique such as this I would remove and replace the top keeping the screw system. Even though not ideal.If you enlarge the holes in the apron where the top fits it will allow for some movement .The hinge can be cut apart with a piece of jap saw blade,glued up assembled , clamped and line bored for a new pin.Where the curved aprons meet the back make good fitting glue blocks and rub them in.Lastly repeat every hour" I will not get sucked in again" of course you probably will, we nearly all have, but hate to admit it <G>

1. 
   Jfrostjr | Dec 09, 2008 04:50pm | #17

   "Lastly repeat every hour" I will not get sucked in again" Does that mean I will have to forego the WINE?Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922

6. 
   JiminFla | Dec 08, 2008 08:09pm | #6

   Frosty,

   I just did a somewhat similar job recently.  The client had a 15'-long banquet table that had been in her family for many years.  The six leaves that went with it were lost and she wanted me to make new leaves and refinish the remaining two ends and center support.  I discussed the work with her before I started and I gave her a very detailed written proposal which specified exactly what I would do and what I was not going to do.  For example, I made it clear that the leaves would be made of solid white oak, same as the originals, but that they would not match them perfectly.  There were casters underneath the legs and I suggested that she replace them since several of them had rusted.  She agreed and I included the new casters in the proposal.  I stayed in touch with her throughout the process to make sure that she agreed with everything I was doing.  She didn't want the table to "look new" which called for a lot of judgment on my part.  I made a finish sample and took it to her for approval before I began work.  She also wanted me to make a top for storage cabinet that the leaves go into, and I showed her a sketch and the hinges I planned to purchase before starting work on it.  The client was delighted and said she can't stop looking at "her masterpiece."  Her guests for Thanksgiving kept commenting on how nice the table looked.  The key to her satisfaction was to keep her in the loop and get her input on the work before I did it.  I would ask your friend if he felt that it was necessary to use hide glue that would historically accurate for the piece, or whether is was OK to use modern glue.  You might explain the different properties so he understands why you are asking the question.  As far at the top goes, I would say that although it was originally attached to the apron with screws, it appears that there may be some warpage due to wood movement and that you would recommend using another technique.  Whatever the issue, if you discuss it knowledgeably with the client and get their approval beforehand, you will have a lot less to worry about when you deliver it.  Hope this helps.

   Jim

7. 
   dkellernc | Dec 08, 2008 08:19pm | #7

   Frosty - A word of caution.  It looks from your pictures that the apron is built of brick-laid oak.  If that's the case, then the table is most certainly English, and while it still has some value as an antique, it's probably in the low thousands, perhaps high hundreds.

   However, there's no way I can be sure of that from photos posted on the internet.  You should have the table looked at by a knowledgeable dealer in early american antiques to confirm its origin.  If, in fact, I'm wrong and this is an american example of a federal, inlaid demi-lune table, it's worth 10 times as much as an English example, and restorations should be approached very, very carefully.  For example, removing the top and re-attaching it with buttons would severely devalue the piece on the collector's market, as would even replacing the original screws with modern counterparts.

   While nice of you to offer to help, I'd talk to your friend about this and advise him to have an expert look at it.  If it turns out to be a valuable piece, then your friend should consider sending it to someone that is an expert and makes a living restoring and conserving furniture like this - it'll get you off the hook from potentially taking a disastrous (though well intended) course of repair.

1. 
   Dave45 | Dec 08, 2008 09:42pm | #8

   Another vote for dkellernc's advice. I only work on anyone's old stuff after I've clearly informed them that I'm NOT an antiques expert. I can do a decent job of restoring functionality without being too obvious, but such repairs can easily destroy the value of an antique. Let your friends make the call.

8. 
   joinerswork | Dec 08, 2008 10:04pm | #9

   Jfrost,

   What dkeller said, regarding value and affecting same.

   However, (and this is impossible to tell for certain without careful examination of the piece, not just photos) it looks to me like this is either an old reproduction or an attempt at a fake. 

   1) The use of oak for those aprons is unexpected, even on an English piece.  One would expect a softwood.  And those look like bandsaw marks on the aprons inside, not bowsaw marks, which would be more irregular. 

   2) Is that wire finish nail holding the rear apron on original?  One would expect that corner to be dovetailed, or at the very least nailed with square (or hand-forged) nails and reinforced inside with glueblocks, for which there seems to be not a shadow of evidence. 

   3) The pockets for the screws holding the apron to the top are a little sketchy.  Usually, these tops are held with glueblocks alone, or if screwed, the pockets generally are more generous, "U" shaped, cut with a large gouge, rather than triangular, cut with a chisel, which I think of as later, timewise.  Pulling one of the screws and examining its point will help.  If the point is blunt, flat, or ends abruptly, it (the screw, not necessarily the table) was made prior to 1860 or so.  A pointy, "gimlet" ended screw indicates a more recent manufacture.  Be aware, tho, that this only tells you the age of the table if you can be certain that the screw and the table have always been together.  Look at the screws in the flip-top's hinges as well.

   4) The wooden hinge appears to only have 3 knuckles.  Old work typically will have 5, or less commonly four fingers, and more often than not, an iron, or hard (hickory, oak or similar, often with evidence of its having been whittled) wood pin, not a piece of dowel rod. The color of the sub-apron is suspect, the dark stain that ends at the edge of the apron looks in the photo like an attempt to hide a newly worked surface.  It might be that the bulk of the table is legit, and the rear apron assembly is a replacement (remember that finish nail?), or that it is pretending to be older than it is..

   5) Look for evidence all over, of machine tooling, jointer marks on the edges of the aprons, insides of legs, planer marks on the underside of the top.  Also, staining and oxidation evidence that "doesn't make sense".  Ring stains from cans or bottles on the underside of the top, for instance, or screw or nail holes that are there for no apparent reason, indicate recycled, old wood.

   If you think you are dealing with a period piece, it ought to be worked on by someone knowledgeable enough not to ruin its value.  The rule of thumb is, "Don't do anything that you can't come back later and undo without a trace." Thus the admonition to use hide glue, and not to add slots and screws for buttons under the top.

   Ray

1. 
   JeffHeath | Dec 08, 2008 10:16pm | #10

   Man, you is one smart cookie, Ray!!

   Great advise.  I even enjoyed reading it.

   I hope the OP takes it.

   Jeff

1. 
   joinerswork | Dec 09, 2008 01:23am | #11

   Thanks Jeff,

   I have had my head inside one or two old pieces in my time, even a couple that had been "fixed up" before I got involved, haha.

   Ray

1. 
   JeffHeath | Dec 09, 2008 03:02am | #12

   I defer to your expertise, Ray.  You can measure the experience I have regarding identifying and repairing antiques in an empty thimble.  I prefer to hack and smash new stuff together.  Although, in this economy, the next person to call wanting something repaired will probably get my attention. 

   Happy Holidays,

   Jeff

1. 
   mapleman | Dec 09, 2008 04:03am | #13

   Although, in this economy, the next person to call wanting something repaired will probably get my attention. 

    

   Hell, in this economy, the next person who calls and wants a Home Depot pine potato bin built for their double wide trailer gets a visit from me :-)

   Lee

    

    

2. 
   JeffHeath | Dec 09, 2008 08:03pm | #20

   Lee,

   You've got it buddy.  I have just finished approving my first advertisement for woodworking jobs of any sort in the local paper> FIRST EVER!!  I find myself currently twiddling my thumbs with no commissions at hand.  My lovely wife is none too pleased at all!

   Take care, and Happy Holidays,

   Jeff

   PS  If this keeps up, I'm going to have to get a job.   YIKES!  The word 'job' is a dirty word to me.

   Edited 12/9/2008 12:04 pm ET by JeffHeath

3. 
   joinerswork | Dec 09, 2008 04:24am | #15

   Jeff,

   I heard that.  Repairs have always been a sort of pot-boiler for me.  But,high end restoration/conservation is just as fun/challenging for me as new work.

   Ray

2. 
   Jfrostjr | Dec 09, 2008 05:29pm | #18

   Ray - others,What a remarkable group you are! So many sound, thought-producing suggestions in just a couple of hours. Thanks to you all.I spoke with "John" last night and obtained some additional information about the table: He acquired it from his Mother's estate where it was valued at, and he paid, $1.200. The Estate appraiser said that it was English in origin. But - when he got it home, he took it for an appraisal at a "store gathering". There he was told the secondary wood was chestnut - which would make it American. I could buy that, as I could not identify the wood. (chestnut was eliminated by the blight in the 1930s, and I have not seen any before.) It is "soft" (dent with thumbnail) and open pored.I could not find ANY sign of machine tool marks, the apron saw marks are very uniform ( I suspect from good technique) but the progress with each stroke really narrows as they near the bridle joint areas.The screws, apron and hinge, are more blunt then current types; the points are at about a 45* angle. The screw pockets are chopped in a Vee by a chisel, not a gouge.There are three knuckles on the gate leg, very crudely cut.The pin appears to be hand whittled. not a dowel.The recesses for the leg "bands" appear to have been hand cut - the saw cuts are markedly deeper than the recess itself. It is almost as though a raw apprentice built the table and an expert did the veneer work.That being said, John says "go ahead, it would probably cost me most of the $1,200 to have a Professional do the work." He wants to watch me as I proceed. Subject to your further comments,my plan is as follows:1. Reattach the split top piece with hide glue, using a caul and metal clamp plus a band clamp. Note the picture of the top. There are two distinctly different colored pieces of wood. I think it is ugly. (No - it is not sun fading.)2. Realign and snug-up the sub-apron; finish-nail it in place and rub in glue blocks (of a different species so it is obvious as a structural repair.)3. Cut the hinge pin to remove it. Reattach the fixed rear '1/2 apron' to the sub-apron; align the moveable section and line bore for a new pin. QUESTIONS: Which portion, if any, of the pin should be glued in place? Should the center segment be bored oversize to ease rotation? Or I could just wax that area of the pin.Thanks again, RayFrosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922

   
1. 
   dkellernc | Dec 09, 2008 07:58pm | #19

   Frosty - Regarding the appraisal at $1200.  The estate appraiser has severely under-valued the piece, even in the condition that it's in, because he thought it was English in origin.  Moreover, if your friend's mother's estate was settled some time ago (more than 5 years), colonial american antiques have changed value radically (in the "up" direction).

   Based on your's and Ray's assessment of the workmanship, it may not be in the very highest price category of value, but I think your friend will be truly shocked by how much this table is worth, provided there's strong evidence that it's American and produced in the Federal period.

   It's not, by the way, completely unheard of to have a table-top that's glued up from two different boards in the period.  Mahogany was expensive, though not as expensive as it was in the 1750's.  It's certainly possible that the top was dyed with something like alkanet root extract or logwood extract at the time of its manufacture, and the boards closely matched when it was new.  Over time, or perhaps with a re-finishing job, the original color has changed, and unequally between the boards.

   Were I you, I would seriously consider not working on the piece.  IF your friend absolutely insists, I would simply glue the top back together with hide glue, and strongly advise him to just place it against the wall in his home as decoration (and not repair the apron/hinge joint).  Then he should go get a knowledgeable person that deals in early american antiques to examine it.  It shouldn't cost him very much - perhaps a couple of hundred dollars, perhaps free.  And its quite possible that the table might be worth as much as $12,000 - $15,000.  Better examples go for much more than that.

1. 
   Jfrostjr | Dec 09, 2008 10:32pm | #22

   Thanks for the 'heads-up'. I will send your comments on to John for his further instructions before I start anything.If you are correct, I will have a friend for life - but then, he may not want to part with it for sentimental reasons.JerryFrosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922

2. 
   joinerswork | Dec 09, 2008 10:22pm | #21

   Frosty,

   Well, I've already been called a curmudgeon and a fusspot today.  But that curved apron sure looks to me like it has oak's radial grain, esp in photo 3, which chestnut has not.  And, I'd expect to see some of those sawmarks to overlap one another and not all be exactly parallel to one another, if handcut.  Anyhoo, enough whittering.

   As to your proposed treatment.

   1) I'd cut a  piece of scrap wood to fit around the curve of the top's loose piece, leaving the outside edge straight of course to accomodate clamps.  Long enough to use two or three clamps. Pad with cloth to avoid marring the finish.  On clamp-up, use add'l clamps with blocks and plastic sheets, bridging the joint, to align the two pieces' faces to one another, then pull them together with your bar clamps and caul.  Don't forget to pad the straight side of the top as well.  It is a sign of a hack job, to leave clamp marks on a finished edge.  Not trying to insult you, but I've seen it more often than not, on home repairs. After the hide glue gels, you can carefully wipe (damp cloth) or peel off the excess bead (squeeze out) .  Once the bar clamps are tight, you can remove the clamps you used to align the pieces, exposing the length of the joint, so you can clean it up.  Waiting til the glue is dry exposes you to the chance of either chipping the old finish as you peel off the dry glue, or of damaging the finish as you will need hot water to soften the driued glue.

   2) I'd avoid adding any hardware (nails) where there was none before.  Gluing, clamping, and adding glue blocking ought to be sufficient.  There are two schools of thought on leaving repairs (like your added blocking) as obvious.  Certainly it is legitimate to do so, if the owner has no objection.  If he prefers a "blended" repair, a detailed report- with photos, if possible- itemizing the location and extent of the repairs, to remain with the table, is a real good idea.  Not a bad idea, regardless.

   3) If at all possible, drive the old pin out, and try to re-use it.  Most likely it is just a friction fit.  Sometimes a small nail is driven thru one of the knuckles and into the pin to hold it, and I've seen one or two that were split and wedged at one end. Most often the reason for looseness at these joints is that the fingers are split, from the legs being torqued across rough, uneven floor boards.  If the damage to the joint is repaired, frequently the old pin will be found to be snug enough.  Waxing (with a candle stub) between the fingers, and the outside of the pin before re-assembly is a good idea. 

   Good luck,

   Ray 

1. 
   Jfrostjr | Dec 09, 2008 10:46pm | #23

   I've sent dkellnernc's message to John. We'll see if he wants to go ahead.Yes, I agree with your suggestions. I had planned to use a caul - the banding is very good and I hate clamp marks. I doubt if I can get the old pin out, and even if I could, I'm afraid the knuckles are so worn the top would never lay flat. I will double check it before I do anything - if he still wants me to proceed.The whole project is pretty straight forward, and would be fun, IF it weren't so "Antique".Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922

1. 
   dkellernc | Dec 10, 2008 03:39am | #24

   "The whole project is pretty straight forward, and would be fun, IF it weren't so "Antique"."

   Hmmm - If you like doing this sort of thing, I assure you there's a never ending supply of not-so-antique furniture that needs work.  The flea market's full of factory-made late 19th century furniture every weekend. ;-)

9. 
   BruceS | Dec 09, 2008 04:12am | #14

   The photos arn't super crisp,  But do I see Powder Post beetle holes??  Active or old??

   Work Safe,  Count to 10 when your done for the day !!

   Bruce S.