I’m building a cherry sideboard and am wondering about what I should use for secondary wood or stay with cherry throughout. The customer doesn’t want raised panel doors or exosed hardware so its veneer on the front-solid top and I didn’t get a warm reaction to high grade ply…
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Replies
I have used poplar and white pine with great success. I see no reason to use expensive woods that will be covered most of the time.
froe,
Traditionally, the choice for secondary wood was something that was stable, easily worked, cheap, and available in good widths. This was variable regionally, and can be a clue to determining the place of origin of an antique. New England cabinetmakers favored white pine, occasionally cedar; Pennsylvanians, poplar; Virginians, poplar, white or yellow pine; further south, yellow pine predominates, with some cypress in the deep south. If your sideboard is a close copy of an antique, you may want to duplicate the typical secondary wood of its place of origin, otherwise use whatever is cheap and available to you, just as the old-time workers did.
Regards,
Ray Pine
thanks-I guess poplar would be good-its easy to work. Should I leave the finish of it white natural as a contrast to cherry?
froe,
Traditionally it was left unfinished, unless in a cupboard where it would be visible. But, with time, the color of the unfinished wood changes. My experience is that customers who are used to seeing the insides of antiques dislike the raw appearance of new, unfinished drawer sides, etc. Normally I will use a light stain approximating the color of old oxidized wood, and top off with a sealer coat of finish.
Regards,
Ray
If you are going to the trouble of veneering, you should not be offering just plain veneers, because there isn't any more work in laying something extraordinary than something cheap. and the cost difference for raw veneers is not all that much. However, you should sell high, because when some clients want something special, they are not expecting it to be cut-rate either.
If I have a client that likes cherry, I would show them something like Moabi or fiddleback makore. Here is a link to get you started.
http://www.certainlywood.com/newarrivals/QMakore-Moabi-03.htm
I am just learning how to veneer-how does the pricing work? If you use veneer on the front-what would you use as the substrate under the veneer? What would you use inside a piece-in a cherry piece would you use solid cherry inside?
I can not help you with pricing.
Sometimes I will veneer over solid wood if I am sure that it is dry and stable. Otherwise, I will band either MDF, or industrial particle-board.
If I was your customer, I wouldn't want to pay for cherry secondary wood. In my shop, such a practice would come close to doubling the material cost.
As to the choice of species of a secondary wood and what was traditionally done; Tulip (not poplar!) was used, especially in and around Philadelphia. But tulip moves quite a bit (and its properties were well known in the 18th c). I would be very careful with it. I see two issues here:
1) I'm not certain as to how well old drawers were fit into carcasses. They may have had fits sufficiently sloppy to use any material effectively. Such fits may be unacceptable to modern customers accustomed to drawers with ball bearing slides.
2) A few really old pieces with which I'm familiar used quartersawn material for secondary wood, including and especially drawer sides. So perhaps their fits were initially better and were made possible by the used of QS stock.
My advice is simply to be careful in your interpretation of "tradition". In this instance, simply matching species may not be good enough to ensure equal success.
Adam
Adam,
Semantics! Here in Va, your tulip tree (Liriodendron tulipifera) is commonly called poplar. Common Forest Trees of Virginia, from Va DoF, lists it as Yellow Poplar, or Tulip Tree. Same thing in Important Trees of Eastern Forests from USFS. Most folks in lumberyards hereabouts would give you the hairy eyeball, if you asked for tulip-probably send you over to the garden center downtown! In Philly, I guess it's a different story.
True poplar (Populus deltoides, et al.) around here is generally called cottonwood by loggers but cottonwood isn't often (if ever) used for furnituremaking locally. It's considered a "junk" tree that is cut for pulpwood or palletmaking at best. There is a species of magnolia, we call "cucumber tree" that is sometimes used locally as an equivalant to poplar, (or tulip!). Same for basswood, linden, or "linwood" as the Mennonite lumbermen call it.
Interesting how different regions develop different names for the same thing. Can lead to confusion sometimes.
Regards,
Ray Pine
Ray,
You're right. It’s the same here. Lumber yards don't know this wood as tulip. But then again, lumber yards in my area don't seem to know jack squat about lumber. Most don't know the difference between quarter sawn and plain sawn lumber beyond the significant difference in price. I've gotten the hairy eyeball when I use a term like "flitch" so….
And you're right that my correction is semantic, but that sort of implies irrelevance, which I wouldn't agree with. In this discussion, we're talking about secondary woods. If you wanted to research 18th c secondary woods, you'd quickly find that most good museums/collections (like Winterthur for example) use the correct nomenclature. I've seen the woods confused several times which is unforgiveable in my estimation. In front of Pennsbury manor, for example, there is a row of tulips that were supposed to be poplars. The fully grown tulips obscure the view of the manor from the river in a way the poplars would not have.
So… I think… good to name things correctly, if even just between us. It promotes a deeper understanding and staves off confusion (as you say). There may be European KNOTS members who may be encouraged to use poplar since the Americans say it’s a great secondary wood. I don't know if poplar is a great secondary wood and it certainly wasn't used extensively in American furniture. See what I mean? You're right. Its semantic, but not unimportant.
Adam
Adam,
I think you are drawing distinctions where none need exist, or splitting hairs. Whether its tulip poplar, or yellow poplar, any lumber dealer will know what you are talking about if you ask for poplar. If you want populus, you'd better ask for cottonwood. That doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about, it reflects the reality of the lumber industry. Jefferson didn't call his summer home "tulip forest". It was poplar forest then and is now.
Regards,
Ray
edit: I'd suspect that our European friends might be confused by your referencing poplar as tulip, thinking you may be talking about the S Amer. exotic, used for inlays, etc, that is commonly called tulipwood.
Edited 5/10/2006 2:51 pm ET by joinerswork
Not particularly Ray. Liriodendron tulipifera is sold as tulipwood over here, although I call it poplar. I like to confuse my fellow natives, ha, ha. That's what comes of having lived and worked in Yank-land for a few years. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Sgian,
Just to muddy the waters, what do you guys call tulipwood, then? The exotic, I mean.
Cheers,
Ray
Dalbergia frutescens, Ray?
Pau rosa or jacaranda rosa are common. I thought the stuff was known as pinkwood in the US?
Sometimes I find it's easier and much more precise to order wood using the Latin binomial name which is exact and unarguable.
For example when ordering mahogany it's very precise to say you want 10 cubic feet of 1" rough sawn mahogany, Swietenia macrophylla. The merchant either has it or hasn't, or might be able to offer alternatives. For instance we recently purchased some american mahogany grown in Fiji-- not south america, but the species was correct. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I would have thought you ordered your timber in metric by now!.
Oh, I do, I do Cicero. But the merchant insist on delivering cubic feet. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I am reminded of an occasion going through the streets of LA,seeing a sign that quite amused me,it said,"The Merchant of Tennis".
You guys are great here! The subject is secondary woods. I raise the issue of how the choice of a secondary species may effect the quality of the finished piece, ponder attitudes past and present about drawer operation and mention in passing the proper name of the species in question and some how I'M SPLITTING HAIRS! I love it! So I take it back. CALL IT WHATEVER YOU LIKE! Do you think (whatever you call it) is good for drawer sides if its not QS? I haven't been using it, favoring QS pine instead. What about making tops and bottoms of a walnut carcass (whatever you call it). Is anybody worried that nameless wood will crack the walnut? I use a lot of this wood and it sure enough does move and crack.Adam
Adam,
Easy there, big fella.
Hoadley, in Understanding Wood, has a paragraph about this wood, and all the different, local, commonly used names it has. He prefers "yellow poplar". Let's call it tulip poplar, just to be contrary, ok?
As far as relative movement rates for various species, Hoadley has a useful chart in his book on that topic. Yellow (oops tulip) poplar moves slightly more tangentially than walnut, slightly less radially than walnut. It is more stable radially (quartersawn) than walnut is tangentially (flatsawn). White pine (strobus) moves a lot less than walnut, loblolly pine(taeda), is closer, and longleaf pine (palustris) is closer still. I haven't experienced problems with splitting caused by differential shrinkage, if both primary and secondary woods are equally dry.
As far as using qtrsawn for drawer sides, I figure that if the front isn't qtrsawn, then the side need not be, as it'll likely want to move less than the front. Also, if I'm using pine, I like the idea of all those latewood stripes exposed on the edge of the dr side, as aiding even wear. Qtrsawn pine exposes early/late/early/late from front to back of the side, and tends to wear in a wavy pattern, as the softer area get abraded away. (This is where you can tell ME I'm splitting hairs- or growth rings.)
Personally, I prefer working pine to tulip poplar. T. poplar feels "sticky" somehow, to me, under a plane, more friction. Often, it has an unpleasant smell, like it grew next to an outhouse (maybe we should call it toilet poplar). It'll likely outlast white pine as a drawer side, since it's denser, but I've heard it argued that pine's resin acts as a lubricant. One of the yellow pines, riftsawn, is probably a good all round choice for us here in the south.
Regards,
Ray
Now there's a good knots post. On point, and a service to the community. Thanks, Ray. To be most helpful we should have skipped walnut (I brought it up) and instead compared the black cherry used by the OP. Ray, can you post the same data for black cherry? Pretty sure its a little more stable than walnut which could cause problems for the OP. Thoughts?
Also, my experience with tulip poplar has been pretty bad. It moves seasonally more than anything else in my shop. It also moves significantly after planing (its all rift sawn). Anyone else? While I'm reluctant (okay unwilling) to discount Hoadley, this little gem from the mid 18th c sums up my experience:
"It is certain, that it contracts so much in hot weather, as to occasion cracks in the boards, and in wet weather it swells so as to be near bursting, and the people hardly know of a wood in these parts which varies so much in contracting and expanding itself. The joiners however make much use of it in their work...."
Adam,
According to Hoadley, cherry shrinks slightly less than walnut (7.1% cherry, 7.8% wal)tangentially, (3.7% cherry, 5.5% wal) radially. T. poplar shrinkage is in the same ballpark (8.2%tan., 4.6% rad.). Not so much different that I'd expect a problem, unless for instance, you were to join qtrsawn cherry sides to a flatsawn tulip poplar top.
All in all, my experience with t.poplar has been that it's pretty tractable. I have some unusual poplar that is highly figured, curly with areas of burl and all kinds of mineral streaking and spalting. Now as you'd expect, that stuff won't lay still long enough to lay a plane on hardly. But as a rule, straight grained, evenly seasoned poplar is pretty tame in my experience. As your experience shows, mileage may vary.
Regards,
Ray
If you can get it, Poplar would be a good choice. You may have to pick thru the stack to avoid some of the color, but it's a good, stable, easily worked hardwood.
A second choice would be alder. It's more expensive than poplar but about half the price of cherry (I just priced alder & cherry for an upcoming cabinet job). Alder has a brownish color that may work well with your cherry.
Personally, I usually use 1/2" Russian (Baltic) birch ply for my drawer boxes. It's stable, inexpensive, and you don't have to make glueups to get the width you need.
You may need to educate your customer about the benefits of good quality ply. I often have these discussions and customers are usually surprised to find out that ply is more stable and less expensive than solid lumber.
I wish I didn't have to put a name to this! Quote from my youth,1893. "Tulip (harpulia pendula) grows in Queensland and yeilds planks 14-24 in wide, of close grained & beautifully marked wood, highly esteemed for cabinet-work."
I saw this post and did not respond..
However, I have been thinking about it.
The statement... The customer doesn't want raised panel doors or exposed hardware so its veneer on the front-solid top and I didn't get a warm reaction to high grade ply... That brought me back.
I use to make custom doors to replace ones in OLD houses. Usually they wanted the same style. AND the same quality or BETTER!
Usually pretty well to do folks. The statement from the customer.. I would suggest you sit down with them and ask exactly what they want AND expect. I learned that lesson ONCE.. I never went off on my own after that.
I do realize this does not address the secondary woods question but sounds like you need to also address the Primary woods also.
No offence.. REALLY. Just a HARD lesson I learned. Cost me a 'bundle'.. I did eat that job but I did get many more jobs from them when I did it THEIR way!
Sinatra would not have approved of you doing it there way!
Ya' got a point there! As usuall!
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