I’m planning to use S&D pipe for my main dust collection lines, per Bill Pentz’s recommendation as a low-cost option for small shops. Thing is, Home Depot has one kind one month, a different one the next. Right now, they have one pipe that’s ABS and all the rest are PVC. Pentz only mentions the ABS. Would either do, d’ya think?
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
I'd use metal snaplock and stay away from the plastic altogether. In the long run it is cheaper and there are more fittings available and besides it is easier to ground properly.
Ron
With out a doubt in my mind go for the PVC. Though it is a bit more flexible it is much tougher, more hangers are needed. ABS is more brittle so if you tap an the line to dislodge a plug-up you may possibly crack or chip out a chunk. Be sure to use Schedule SDR 35 ! The other Drain line is too thin and flimsy. Like all dust and vacuum fittings there doesn't seem to be a set standard, things are close but not exact. Fortunately with the SD35 sizes are very close but still a problem. On your bends use sweep bends(long radius) not regular 90's or 45's. At the ends of your runs use a Street fittings(male on one end and female on the other end) The female end will nicely accept standard dust collection fittings. Blast gates will be a problem, I suggest making you own, nothing more than a rectangular box with a slider gate inside, I forget where, But there are plans on the http://WWW. 
Much controversy over grounding, The Jet DC book doesn't mention grounding other books say to do it. I suggest GROUNDING inside and outside all the runs including a jumper to each piece of equipment and grounding to your Electrical service main ground(The Big copper line that runs to the outside Earth ground).
Plug ups(murphys law) At stratigic locations don't glue the joint just Duct tape it so it can be opened for snaking or install a Y in the line backwards with one leg of the Y at the 2 O'clock position and put in a clean out plug.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Thank you, Bruce, for the details! Your post really helps. I'll confess I'm tend to pshawww the whole thing about grounding in a shop as small and lightly used as mine is. I've read both sides of the controversy, and somewhat contrary to my normally careful nature, fall on the "it's not a practical danger" side of the argument.
To balance that out, I always empty my compressor after using it. ROFL!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
only problem i've ever experienced with PVC is getting a nasty shock when closing blast gates after using high volume machines like planer and shaper...
not a real safety concern, but unpleasant enough that i chose to use metal pipe in my new shop...no real cost difference between the two
Grounding !! Well lets try it your way w/no grounding but lets try not gluing the joints for now and just duct tape them. And see how many times you get ZAPPED. You have been zapped by a shop vac haven't you ?? DC is a shop vac on steroids. BIG ZAP. I'll bet you eventually end up grounding.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
3 hp cyclone, all plastic ducting to 16 machines some with two ports. No shocks, no sparks, no grounds, no problem.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
3 hp cyclone and no grounding...hmmm... now we know why "the house is on fire" in your proverb
:)
You may turn out to be right, Bruce, but if I do ground it, it won't be because I'm afraid of an explosion, but because I'm a whimp <grin -- I really do hate being shocked>. As far as the explosion risk goes, I think it'd be a miracle if my 22' x 22' shop with its 1200 theoretical CFM dust collector could generate that much static. ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Some of my runs will raise the hair on my arm if I get close enough but even when trying to I've never been able to get shocked.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Lowes generally carries 5" and sometimes 6" S&D pipe. I've found the best sources however, is farm and irrigation supply stores. In North Texas, the John Deer company is a good source so you might contact them although I doubt that you have much need for irrigation up there :-) They carry all different sizes and can order the bigger radius elbows. Short of that, there are specialty businesses that use thin- wall pipe to encase and insulate copper pipe and they should be able to help you out. There is an large selection of pipe sizes and fittings at very low cost once you can find a knowledgeable source.
Doug
Thanks, Doug, sourcing this stuff seems to be difficult. Not much irrigation getting done here, but my husband works in eastern Oregon, so he could find some there no doubt. Just hope I don't have to drive over there to pick things out! I'll look on line and see if I can make a list that way.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hey Doug,
Do you like in the Keller area? I bought my pipe at John Deere also. It was cheeper there than any other sourse, including wholesale plumbing supply houses where I have an account.
MikePardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
There is a Deere dealer in Sherman about 70 miles from me that carries all of the necessary pipie and fittings. When we move back to New Mexico in a few more months I am taking pipe and fittings up there to fix the shop up there.
70 miles from sherman...... Paris or Mt Vernon? Or are you from Oklahoma and dont want to admit it. Hah hah. Just kidding....... Some of my best friends are from OK.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Greenville, TX.
Nice area. Sorry to see you go. Hope it is not so darn hot where you are going.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
MId to upper 80's during the day and low to mid 60's in the evening. Kinda hard to take but ..............
I use S&D in my shop, it works fine and it will save you a lot of money. I found a source at a John Deer landscape supply store, locally. You only need to ground lines that you are worried about bumping into. Explosions are a myth.
Todd
There was an article about grounding I believe in WOOD and it said that it was unnecessary. I think its mainly because the runs are so much shorter and less velocity from us home shop guys. We don't have the chance to build up the friction.
Static electricity will build up if not grounded. It will shock you, and this can be just annoying, or dangerous depending on what you are doing. However, the worry of explosion unwarranted.
Todd
Is your's ABS or PVC?? Were you able to get most/all of the fittings you needed from the same source?? Thanks.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The 6 inch straight pipe is labeled D2729, which is thinner and cheaper than SDR-35. Most of the fittings I used are called styrene. Again, it is thinner than SDR-35 and about half the price. I did buy a couple of SDR-35 fittings because I could get a 6 inch to 4 inch wye fitting, which was not available in styrene. I don't know from ABS or PVC.I don't know what these people are talking about when they say metal pipe costs the same or less than the plastic. That may be true if you use HVAC pipe and fittings, but that stuff is really bad for DC systems. They only viable options in metal are spiral pipe and smooth walled (laser weld). Neither of these systems will be as efferent as SRD pipe, but they are convenient for rearranging. Spiral pipe is more expensive than SRD, and the smooth walled metal is a lot more expensive.Here are the friction specs for pipe as posted on Pentz's site:
Corrugated steel duct= 60 Spiral Duct = 90-100 Laser Welded Steel Duct = 110-125 3-PVC Duct = 146
Todd
"I don't know what these people are talking about when they say metal pipe costs the same or less than the plastic. That may be true if you use HVAC pipe and fittings, but that stuff is really bad for DC systems. " Yeah, I didn't buy that either, but didn't have time to round up figures for a discussion. Metal is freakin' expensive and then you have to pay to have it shipped!
OK, here's one example, just for fun. Penn State INdustry's economy pipe, 6" x 5' is $14.95. At Home Depot the other night, 6" S&D 10' long was $11.60-something. Now, that might be the wrong S&D, but even if the right stuff was 50% more expensive, the price still beats metal all to heck. Will have to do more pricing research.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The price of metal reducers, wye's and other fittings is a real eye opener too.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
"The price of metal reducers, wye's and other fittings is a real eye opener too." No kidding!! I took one browse through Oneida and Penn State and knew metal wasn't for me, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I've got an Idea. How about sending this Question/Problem with dust explosions to " MYTH BUSTERS " ?? I'am sure the Boys would get a kick out of trying to make something go BOOM.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Fantastic!
Good one!
For the sake of any newbies reading this, maybe it's a good idea to explain that said explosion is a practical consideration with larger DC's that have a much higher velocity in the pipes than our little home-shop units do. Here's a link to one of the web-based articles that has spurred the controversy (not saying he's the final word, or the ultimate expert -- just part of the discussion).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well I did it !! Shot off a E-mail to the Discovery Channel. Requesting a test of Dust Collectors and the possibility of static electricity causing explosions. One request may not do it ! But if we gang up with a slew or requests it might happen. The Process is very convoluted to make a request. Search for Myth Busters. You have to make the request through Discovery Channel. Lets see if they can, Bust, confirm or make it plausable.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Bruce, cool! Should we make a separate thread? I'll take it to WWA!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
It was a real pain to get logged in to the Discovery Channel (Myth Busters) Fourm. But I think One thread with many hits and comments will get their attention.
SYOP , What are your thoughts ?Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
sorry to harp, but again why would you buy these from a mail order company that is obviously inflating their prices...
elbows, wye's, tee's, couplers, and reducers are common fittings in the commercial HVAC industry and are readily available for much less than what the mail order places are trying to stick you for. you could also have any hoods or floor sweeps custom fabricated by a sheetmetal shop for less that half what you can buy them out of a mail order place for....
I think the dust collector guys are really exploiting customers in this market for piping that is nothing special...don't get me wrong, if you have a large commercial shop and laser welded, rolled end pipe secured with airtight clamps makes your system efficient enough to scale down your collector, or reduce your energy consumption charges or meet OSHA guidelines, then by all means knock yourself out, but for most of us that typee of system is not warranted...
I used 6" pvc throughout my 30 x 30 shop. Have not got shocked yet. The pvc is easy to modify later if you find the need.
I have the 2 hp commercial Oneida unit...... I made my blast gates out of plywood and hardboard.
I did not ground it. I have been an electronics tech for 21 years...........
when I compared the cost of s&d PVC and spiral pipe there was only about 10% difference between the two. spiral pipe being higher. I'm comparing contractor costs, so over the counter prices may vary slightly.
why would you buy pipe through mail order? find a local large sheet metal fabrication shop, generally associated with a commercial HVAC contractor and ask them for pricing. They do not typically fab spiral of that small dia on site but they usually order enough of it from their suppliers to get top tier pricing and negate any shipping costs.
Also you should be able to buy S&D pipe through a plumbing supply house for cheaper than you can get it at home depot. they will also have all of the fittings that you need that home depot does not stock like (6" to 4" single or double wye) and they will typically deliver your entire order to your house for no charge.
Working backwards with my response: Any S&D pipe I buy will most likely come from Eastern WA or OR, where there is lots and lots of irrigation going on, so supplies and options should be plentiful. It's pretty obvious that Home Depot or Lowe's would have only limited selection.
As to the spiral pipe from an HVAC contractor: Are you referring to stuff that is a heavy enough gauge to be appropriate for use with a dust collector?
An, an addendum: I don't think it's fair to say that the woodworking companies are "inflating" prices or "sticking" it to us. They are marking up their product. By all means, the customer (me, you) is free to go closer to the original source to get better prices, but that doesn't mean the vendor who's buying at one price, placing a mark-up and then marketing to the general public is "sticking it" to anyone. They have to make a profit, right?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
i guess you can't fault them for selling something for what the market will bare.
You're thinking they should sell it for what they paid for it? I take it you must work for free, not earning "what the market will bear". Most reputable wholesalers will not sell to the general public in order to protect their retailers who incur the cost of dealing with the unwashed masses.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
See his reply to me. I don't think he "gets" the point. Oh well.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Is it safe to assume you've never had to make your living running (=owning) a retails establishment?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
man, tough room...i don't have anything against anybody selling whatever they want for whatever they can get for it...
i was just trying to let people know that there are alternative sources for obtaining the same materials that are being sold as "dust collector pipe" for much more reasonable prices...
do with that information what ever you want....i hope whatever you decide to use works out well for you...
You really should run some ground wires thru your ducting just for the challenge of figuring out how to do it. There may be books showing the solutions to routing problems, but don't consult them. It takes away all the fun! I had a LOT of fun! I have a 3HP collector & lots of ducting. The last 12 feet of ducting to my collector is snap-together A/C ducting, 8" dia. It was cheap. I collapsed it once by accidentally not having enough blast gates open. I question using that sort of pipe in large diameters, as I did. It is now reinforced.BTW, the third prong on your power cords goes eventually to the main ground point, the long copper stake driven in the ground. You might want to check it out visually. I don't see that a separate connection is of value.Cadiddlehopper
Once again you are making a mountain out of an ant hill. Just go to HD or Lowes and purchase DWV D-2729 PVC pipe and fittings. The stuff is dirt cheap, light weight, easy to work and won't collapse when in use. Don't bother with grounding, you won't blow yourself up or down. With the amount of woodworking you do the pipes won't even get dirty. Use long radius 90s or glue together two 45s and use Ys not Ts. To connect flex hose to the PVC, use a heat gun and band clamp to heat and compress about 2" of the end of the PVC pipe so as to slide the flex over the end. Can't get any easier.
DJK
I think you might be missing the point. I have never found a box store that sells the thin-wall PVC pipe and fittings in the diameters necessary for effective DC. 4" pipe doesn't cut and 5" is minimally acceptable for main runs.
Edited 8/11/2006 10:35 am by DougF
Well then I'm lucky to get 6" pipe and fittings. Been using that setup for about 15 years.
"...With the amount of woodworking you do the pipes won't even get dirty..."
Can you come over and clean up the Diet Pepsi I just spewed out of my nose?
FG,
I set up the basement with 4" plastic as my first try. I have owned the little $140 Delta DC for a couple years now, and it does a great job with the 4" plastic. I know, I know...I will upgrade to 5 or 6" if and when the DC grows, but I think you're correct to expect very few shocks from a 1200 cfm system. It'll handle most tasks, except planing over 8" wide, so the big jobs get planed in the shed with the big DC.
Use 2 x 45's instead of one 90 for turns. Spaced about a foot apart, they provide little resistance over a straight run.
I used the cheaper S&D pipe rather than Sch 40...fittings and pipe is about half the price. For odd adaptions, use the rubber transitions with the hose clamps...kinda price but very flexible.
Duct tape everything. The fittings seal very well by themselves without glue.
I started to build the blast gates from Bill's site, and never finished. I used my existing 4" plastic gates connected to a piece of 4" hose. Woodcraft has adapters to go from 4" hose to 4" PVC. They're a little big for the S&D pipe, which has a smaller OD, so you need to use this little trick: Take the belled end of the S&D pipe and cut two slits 1" long in it. Then you can push the belled end inside of the adapter and duct tape a couple wraps. Completely sealed and ready to go in just a few minutes.
Thanks for the tips, especially on fitting the ABS to adapters.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hey FG,
I reciently plummed my shop out with ABS pipe. PVC and the fittings are WAY more expensive than ABS. I had to come up with some interesting combinations of fittings to make it work, but it works excellent. And I my expectations were high. As for static build up.... I still haven't wrapped ground wire around the pipes. I can feel the charge on the pipes (the hair on my arms stands up) but I haven't got zapped yet. I am sure that I have 200 run time hours on the system and I am happy. If you want I will take pics and post them for you. Seeing how I did the fitting conversions may save you some trouble. Don't get the pipe at HD. I found out too late that my local irrigation company had the stuff MUCH cheaper. But the comercial plumbing houses were higher than HD, even though I have a good account with them.
Mike
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Hi Mike, pics would be great. I spent a little time trying to find details on pipe and fittings online, but no luck so far. Probably not something the farmers do, LOL, so the companies don't bother.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
I just realised that ABS pipe is that crap they sell at Rocklers and the like. Those fittings are useless and brittle. Mine is a wierd mix of drain pipe and PVC. Here are the pics. There are some assinine details that you cant see that are importaint. All parts were bought at Home Depot and Lowes. The 6" to 2" reducer will only fit if you get the large rubber washers used to seal a kitchen sink basket (the drain thing). Put the rubber washer around the male 6" side and it will be a very snug fit into the female fitting.
I connected the blast gates on the collector side by sticking it into the 4" pipe and securing with a water hose clamp. On the hose side I had to use 4" tripple wall pipe. It is used for irrigation, I think. HD and Lowes quit carrying it around here. But I don't know about larger stores in other areas. The tripple wall is thicker so the flexible DC hose fits tighter. Then I secure all of that with a hose clamp. You will spend a lot of time head scratching. Hopefully this will help.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Wow! How long did you take you to figure all that out? Re: the ABS, I think there's probably a range of quality. I'd hope the S&D Pentz recommends is somewhat better.
Thanks for the pics, it'll take some digesting to understand it all. The take-off you used from the 6" intake on your DC was helpful. I had been thinking about using one of these:http://www.pennstateind.com/store/r-90e06.html
My DC intake is on the bottom like your's is, so I need to go up right from the get-go probably, without losing too much air speed.
Thanks again, I'll look those over tomorrow.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Avoid using a 90 deg. fitting. Especially on the take off. I really don't know what ABS is I guess. I think I have some up there. After reading other posts about brittleness I though it was the stuff at Rocklers or Wood Craft.
Good luck. Plumming out the DC makes a big difference.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
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