Here’s a hand-tool question.
I need to flatten out a newly-constructed workbench, which has a bit of twist. I’ve been going at it with my #4 1/2 and my low-angle block plane (of those two, the block plane actually seems to hog off more wood more quickly), but I’m thinking about buying either a scrub plane or a jack plane to finish this project and for similar projects in the future. Actually, the jack plane I’m thinking about is the L-N low-angle jack plane. If you were going to purchase just one of those planes, which would it be? Is the idea that the scrub plane takes off lots of wood real fast, but is limited in its use, and that the jack plane takes off less wood but is more useful generally?
I guess this is the kind of question that would have been posted around 1875 had there been an internet.
By the way, I recently purchased and read The Handplane Book, which is sort of what has me going in the direction of handplanes. Although, to tell you the truth, for flattening the workbench I really don’t have any choice.
Replies
Mark,
Wow, those are two very different animals. I suppose with considerable grinding LN's low angle jack could be made a roughing plane but the low cutting angle would create a lot of problems. The #62 or low angle jack is much more of a finishing tool. The scrub is at the other end of the spectrum. It's an aggressive roughing tool best suited to removing localized high areas on rough wood.
Can I sneak in a suggestion? Consider the Lie-Nielsen #5 1/2 or #6 for leveling your bench top. With a second iron, both of these planes can quickly change from a roughing plane to finish quality planes. They are more expensive because of the additional costs of machining and fitting a frog but they're more versatile tools. Both are in the size range of traditional fore planes for roughing and try planes for finishing.
When you suggest using two irons, do you mean sharpening one of them with an aggressive crown to hog off wood and the other with a traditional "straight across" edge?
You don't think that the low-angle jack plane with a crowned edge would do the trick?
I'm just posting again to get this thread back on the screen - I just posted in this morning and by 10 am it's already gone into cyber oblivion.
What planes do others use for this kind of work?
Does it make sense that my low-angle block plane cuts much better on the softwood benchtop than my 4 1/2? Both are equally sharp and well-tuned, and both are Lie-Neilsen planes. I'm thinking that on the soft wood, a lower angle just slices better, while the steeper angle requires more force because your effectively putting more force downward - remembering force vectors from physics class. Any other explanation, e.g., you don't know what the hell you're doing, Mark?
Mark,
I used a N0.7 jointer to get my softwood bench top flat. Photo enclosed of about half the work done. You plane and plane, thinking it's never going to get flat, checking it with winding sticks all over the bench top, and then, finally, miraculously, it gets flat.
Then you have to do the other side. (But not as much) : )
Mark,
To go back to our orginal question, scrub plane or jack plane...if one had to choose. My 2 cents is...the jack first, then the jointer, then the scrub. When I leveled my workbench I went back and forth between the jack and jointer...wished I had a scrub. I got it done however, perhaps I could have done it with a scrub and a jointer, not sure. If i just had a scrub, low angle and a block plane...I have no idea what would have happened.
I'm a bit confused. You said you would choose the scrub after the jointer and the jack, but when you were flattening your bench you wished you had the scrub?
Mark,
The reason I wished I had a scrub when flattening my workbench is because the scrub would have made it easier to remove the lumps and bumps in the top..its lighter, shorter and more aggressive. Then I would have gone over the area with the jack and finally the jointer. The point is the scrub helps the jack...but I need the jack more than the scrub....does it make sense?
BG,
A good scrub can be made from just about any El Cheapo smoother. Find one at a garage sale or at a hardware store (Home Depot for $20), reground the blade and, if you find it necessary, file the mouth wide open. I use an old wooden smoother plane that I bought in Europe for $2. Then you have a decent scrub and some money left over to buy a jack. No one will see the finish left by your scrub plane anyway...
Plinthe
Edited 2/10/2003 9:22:51 PM ET by PLINTHE
True for the most part, but the thick(er) blade, huge throat, and narrow footprint of the L-N scrubber seem to make a difference to me.
Don't discount the narrow width of true scrub plane.
Thanks again everyone.
Last night I learned two things about flattening a benchtop with a handplane.
One, using my 4 1/2, I found I could more easily remove lots of wood by standing in front of the plane and pulling on the front knob, rather than standing in back and pushing in the traditional way. Undoubtedly this is terrible handplane technique but in this application it worked for me.
Two, I learned that when you hit hard knots with a handplane you absolutely demolish the leading edge of the blade, to the point where you have to go back and re-form it from scratch, which is a real pain. Avoiding this is now a key goal. How is that done, besides the obvious step of using knot-free wood?
The plan now definitely includes a scrub plane, probably the L-N. I must admit that taking out the worst of the twist with a router is starting to appeal to me, but I think I'll give it a shot with the scrub plane first. If Charles is right and I can do the job in 30 minutes, I'll view that as a bargain.
I guess I'm one of those people who feel each tool is specific to the application for which it's designed and, therefore, don't much like compromises, such as reworking a smoothing plane to make a scrub out of it. But, sometimes need overtakes the ideal. If you get the L-N scrub, you'll get a very specific function tool that does what it's designed to do very well -- hog off a lot of material relatively quickly. One word of caution, however; take care not to set the iron too deeply. A shallow cut works well without a lot of muscle and it reduces the chance of going too far. Also, I find that going in several angles to the grain results in a better surface for smoothing later, plus you may have to take shorter, shallower strokes for knots or wild grain to prevent going deeper than you want due to tearout. Practice makes perfect, I guess. I have the L-N scrub and use it a fair amount, but I would imagine any new or old specifically scrub plane would be OK.
Mark, don't bleep with a router. Get a real scrub plane with a real scrub plane iron - the L-N. Spend a little time with a straightedge to figure out exactly where your problem(s) lie. For benchtops I use a six foot level and a set of winding sticks. Use lumber crayons or chalk to mark the high spots. Work the highs spots checking frequently with the straightedge and winding sticks. Realistically, thirty minutes is more valid for the SECOND benchtop that you flatten. Your first one will take longer. But when you're finished with it you'll be motivated to build another bench. And two benches are always much better and more versatile than one. I now have three benches - one twelve feet long (that's damn big) and two six footers. I built the twelve footer for a church door commission that I did a while back. I love the S.O.B. It's not very pretty though.
None of them are so pretty that you worry about working on them, but I keep the tops flat. Well, maybe the twelve footer is not flat from end-to-end, but it's flat over a relevant distance.
I'm not sure what wood you're using, but a scrub plane does not have to be 'scary-sharp' to work well. HOWEVER, If you've glued up a slab with a hell of a lot of knots, I'll be honest and tell you you've got a bit of a tough go ahead of you. You really should reserve your knot-free stock for a bench top. My bench bases are made from construction lumber bases, but the tops are made from FAS stuff ( I had a bench made with an MDF top, but gave it to a friend). I don't give a hoot in hell what the bases look like - as long as they're built well and engineered well to support the top.
Edited 2/11/2003 8:33:18 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
For removing things like your severe twist, Charles is right. Well, sort of right. I actually prefer an early style American wooden jack plane to a scrub plane unless it's for very localized work.
The blade of the early American jack planes is about 1 3/4" wide so you won't be taking as thick a cut but it will be wider. The end result is the same but you have more control with the jack.
Back when I worked on job sites as a carpenter, I used to get a real kick out of showing your average carpenter what could be done with a Stanley #40 scrub plane. I never once showed it to someone without quite a bit of experience with hand tools that wasn't blown away by the speed with which you could remove stock. I wish I'd kept track how many scrub planes I sold. They used to be real cheap at tool collectors' meets and I made quite a bit of money off 'em.
The problem with the scrub plane is you're not left with a flat surface. If used the way they were intended, you'll end up with a series of shallow trough shapes running diagonally across your stock. From there you clean up with a fore and then a try plane. You could just use the try plane (short jointer about like a #7) to clean up but it'll take a little longer.
Well I sort of agree. Let's say that you'll be left with a flat, scalloped surface. Flat in this case meaning out of twist (wind), cup, etc.
All the surface would need after the scrubber would be some work with the jack plane to bring the bench to 'finish' smoothness - at least smoothness by workbench standards. I don't worry so much about bringing the surface to a smooth-as-glass state.
Mark, I'm taking a break from the shop for a month or so. If you want to give the L-N a trial go I'll ship it to you and you can use it a while. Trust me, you can't hurt it.
Charles, that is an incredibly generous offer. What a country!
I have no doubt that if I take you up on the offer and use the L-N, I will end up buying one myself. I think it would wiser to try to ECE first, so that it becomes my standard of quality. From the other posts here I have no doubt it is a quality tool, and from everything I've read the scrub plane is probably the most tolerant of "roughness." I don't mean that as a slight on the ECE, but as between a scrub and a #7 jointer, for example, I think the whole quality and tuning process is much more important on the jointer.
Nevertheless, your offer is extremely generous and appreciated. Thank you.
Your welcome, Mark. ECE planes are nice. Good luck with your project.
Most of these problems can be overcome: filing the throat open and using a narrower wood smoother (mine has a 1 3/4" blade). I agree with you that the L.N. is an optimal scrub plane (I use several L.N. and I love them...), but when a budget is limited, as it usually is, I think it makes much more sense to make an OK scrub plane almost for free, and to buy another plane that you don't have. Buy the L.N. scrub when you have the money and don't need any other tools. Nothing works better than a jack to flatten out the marks left by the scrub. I wouldn't use one without the other.
By the way Mark, be careful if you hog out wood with a router; some people have the skill to do it, but it is very easy to take off too much where you don't want to. That's the beauty of hand tools, after all: we can check our progress and don't rush into disasters...
Have fun whichever plane you get...
Plinthe
i'll second what chas said...
the narrow width of a true scrub can make a big difference as does the wide throat. a converted bailey will never work as well. i used mine a lot when i was boat building. great tool for doing compound curves which a power plane can't touch.
the l-n is a great tool, but you might consider the ece (sold by highland hardware) as a less expensive alternative. stanley #40's are also fairly common on ebay, usually in the $40-60 range. save your l-n money for where it counts...
making a scrub is also a great first plane building opportunity, since the throat opening and anally flat bed don't matter as much. try it!
just my two cents
Absolutely.
Wow. Thanks for the great responses.
As the story continues. . . .
I spoke with Lie-Neilsen. The person I spoke with said I could use any of (i) a scrub, (ii) a jointer, (iii) a jack, or (iv) a #6. She also said, for what it's worth, that Tom Lie-Neilsen likes low-angle tools, which is why they produce so many of them. She also made me feel better that I am getting better results from my low angle block plane than from my 4 1/2. She said the 4 1/2 is definitely a plane for smoothing, not for taking off lots of wood.
Beautiful job on the bench. What kind of wood is that?
So you just stood there for a long time taking thin shavings with the jointer?
Thanks.
Douglas Fir.
Yeah, I moved around a lot, attacking it from nine million different angles, but basically, yes. Ed
If you're planning to use hand planes for future work, a scrub plane should be in your shop. There's no substitute for it (unless you buy a wide jointer), especially when you encounter rough stock that hasn't been planed flat by a retailer. A scrub plane and a pair of winding sticks can make short work of an uneven board, and the wide mouth lets you do stuff a modified number XXX plane will never do. However, a scrub plane can't give you a good surface like a low-angle or smoothing plane, so I don't think a scrub plane would be appropriate for leveling your bench top -- more like a job for a long-bed plane as mentioned above. If you like L-N products, call them and talk to Tom lie-Nielsen himself or someone there who's a plane person and ask them what they recommend. They're great about things like that. Jim
Depends on how much wood you need to remove. If it's a lot--say, more than 1/16"-- the scrub is much faster. I would plane the top at 45 degrees to the grain with the scrub until flat, then follow with the jack (or jointer) with the grain. If you don't need to remove a lot of wood, you can do it all with the jack, moving from a coarse to a fine setting. I recently got a LN 5-1/2, which is a fairly hefty jack, that would be ideal for this. You can crown the blade slightly, which makes it a little easier to take a heavy shaving. I also have a low-angle jack, which I use mostly for end grain. I would not crown the blade on this plane. The low angle would make the effect of any reasonable crown negligible. Nick
Mark,
I'm going to skip the political stuff this time, but this is an interesting question. I wonder if a big jointer like a #8 might be the best tool. Seems to me like the longer the plane the better on a large surface like a workbench top. My #40 scrub is not very long and it seems to me that it would be conducive to low spots. Of course a #8 is not the most used plane but it sure does what it was designed to do well.
Steve
If what you want to do is flatten your benchtop, use a router. I have flattened two of mine and two others in past years.
But, maybe you really want to buy a plane or maybe you're just a handtool person.
Howie,
Please elaborate on how to do it with a router. I've got the same chore ahead of me - actually have it started but it is tough work with a plane (even a LN). I alternated the direction of the grain thinking it would make it stronger but obviously half the time I'm planing against the grain. (I do still intend to tell my wife I have to buy the LN Jointer.)
Thanks,
Jim
Edited 2/13/2003 4:44:41 PM ET by Jim in CO
Hey Markles, get an L-N scrub plane. You'll get to flat in less than thirty minutes.
I LOVE my LN scrub. Sure it feels good to run board-length, paper thin wisps with the 4 1/2, but you ain't lived 'til you start hogging with a scrub.
mark,
here's a link to that wooden scrub plane i mentioned.
you wouldn't do much better even buying an old stanley...
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=46873&category=51&abspage=1&ccurrency=2&SID=
-kit
Thanks for the link. Tell me, when you are grinding the arc of a scrub plane blade on the grinder, do you use a special jig or just try to eyeball it? I've reached the point of honing blades by hand after grinding them on a jig, but my grinding jig won't do an arc.
I'm thinking about the scrub plane from Lee Valley. Although I know I'm in the minority in saying this, I've had generally bad experience with tools from Lee Valley. They always seem cheap and I wish I had bought something better. I once tried their low angle block plane at a woodworking show. On this board I've read people saying good things about it, but compared to my L-N low angle block plane there is no comparison whatsoever, in my humble opinion. Theirs feels light and plastic, which is the normal experience I've had with that company.
With that said, I know (i) they don't make the scrub plane you're referring to, (ii) of all planes, the scrub plane is probably the one where quality matters least, and (iii) it definitely makes sense to save the money for the higher-end L-N planes.
Edited 2/12/2003 12:17:14 PM ET by MARKRODERICK
i think quality always matters....
ece makes good planes, though, so you're safe there.
i do my grinding freehand. a scrub plane blade is the perfect medium to practice this skill, as the results don't need to be perfect. that goes for honing, too. great time to work on that push-and-roll technique...
whatever route you choose, i'm sure you'll have fun. i love my scrub, and like larry said, love watching people's faces when i show them what it can do.
-kit
I have an Ulmia scrub, almost identical to the ECE, except mine has a cap iron, which probably doesn't do much. It has a relatively narrow 33mm blade (about 1 3/8"), same as the ECE. I formerly tried to make a scrub out of a cheap #4 and it didn't work particlularly well. It was OK on relatively soft woods but was a complete joke on red oak and was no better than my good #5 jack plane on cherry and walnut. The problem was the the blade was simply too thin and the handles to delicate.
My point is that you might be able to do fine with a made-up scrub in some circumstances, but when you really need a scrub plane nothing else will do the job as well. However, if you don't want to spend the money for a dedicated scrub, I would suggest Larry's idea of an older wooden jack plane with a re-ground blade or a good Stanley type jack plane with an extra iron, reground to a strong radius. A jack plane with a 1 3/4 inch blade is better than a standard #5 with a 2" blade. I forget the number, but I think it is 5 1/4.
One tip I have for flattening tough, rough sawn woods is to spray the wood with water, or put a light coat of very thin shellac on it. It will help on relatively tough woods such as oak, hickory, etc. On really tough woods such a Ipe and various "ironwoods" it won't help. Flattening Ipe is an adventure. Your plane better have a narrow, thick iron, as sharp as possible and it is still a challenge.
Don Clark
Thanks, Don. I assume you're happy with your scrub plane and think the ECE is a good tool?
Yes to both. One of the strengths is the fact that these planes don't have a tote, yet the rounded area at the back allows you to get a good and comfortable grip. I am a bit leery of totes on scrub planes because I am afraid they would be too easy to break if you are working away and hit a knot you didn't notice or just from the heavy stress. Also, I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the blade. It holds an edge very well. I believe the blades are basically identical on the Ulmia and ECE.
The odd thing was that when I received my new Ulmia, the mouth was much too tight. I had to open it up a good bit to use it.
Don Clark
The mouth too tight on a plane sold as a scrub plane? Geez - not much quality control there.
I'm going to go ahead and get the ECE from Lee Valley holding my breath, while at the same time getting the low angle jack from L-N and panting with anticipation. I appreciate your help and the help of everyone else.
Charles, I'm getting into handplanes, man!
Here's what I did, faced with exactly the same issue last weekend!
I used a long straight-edge and a pair of winding sticks to figure out what the glued-up surface was like (slight wind at one end, slight bend to the right, more or less flat otherwise).
I rented a hand power plane from my local Hirequip, and in 10 mins hogged off the high spots. Fun, fast, no sweat.
I fetched my recently built 22" oak and matai jointer with the big wide British Clifton iron, and working across the top at low angles, produced a true and near finished surface in about 20 mins. Then I got out my little block plane and cleaned up. I finished with 220 grit and a coat of sanding sealer, and it looks beaut.
Incidentally, the top is glued-up rimu (a New Zealand native) and American White Oak. I used my miter (mitre in this country!) saw to cut a piece of 4 inch by 1 inch white oak into 10 inch lengths, and then using a bunch of identical spacers to create the dog holes, clamped the oak end to end and then between the big meaty bits of rimu.
Edited 2/13/2003 5:58:24 PM ET by kiwimac
no need to hold your breath, save it for when you are working with those planes. The e.c.e. is a fantastic product, own a few of them and find I'm always reaching for them. If you are concerned about buying from Lee Valley, check out David Warren Direct, he runs an add in the back of Fine Woodworking. He is an awesome guy, he has an 800# and he can answer any questions. I was in a similar predicament have to true up some 8/4 stock on my not so big jointer. I called him up, He had the call forworded to his cell and I had the scrub plane within 48 hours . good luck, I hope I'm not to late Petey
I can't seem to find David Warren on the internet or otherwise. Do you have a phone number or a web site address?
Mark, Davids phone # is 800-724-7758, the web address is just for E.C.E. planes and tools. It is http://www.ecemmerich.com . Sorry it took so long to get back to you, my computer is acting up. Good Luck
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