A few weeks ago, I came across a great deal on old #7 bailey handplane, since then I’ve also found a #4, and a nice set of chisels, all used and all were bought for under $15 each. I’ve been slowly getting them cleaned up and wanted to give them all a good edge, and thought I’d give scary sharp a try. I decided to experiment using the 2″ hand chisel first, so I bought a 12″ x 12″ marble tile and a variety of sandpaper grits and started on it. I didn’t even get past 400 grit and already that chisel is sharper than any chisel I’ve ever owned. Yes I’m a beginner, so it doesn’t take much to impress me, but this method is amazing. Is there a downside to sharpening this way? It seems too good and too easy to be true.
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Sire, I refer you to the following web site, with the kindest intentions:- http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM
OK I'm really confused. Everyone keeps talking about lapping the back of the iron. Why the hell would you worry about working part of the blade that is not remotely near the business end of the iron? What am I missing here?
Ah, but a sharp edge is the intersection of two planes so the back and the bevel are most important.
By "back" we are referring to the surface opposite the bevel, in some cases, like a plane blade with a chipbreaker, the "back" points forward, so maybe that is the confusion?
David C
Yeah, that is where I was confused. When you say the back of the iron, you are referring to the bottom of it. This is helping to sharpen the leading edge of the cutting bevel.So, next stupid question from a newbie, can someone define exactly what "lapping" means?
A decent woodworking library is one of your most valuable tools.
It's time you made an investment in a few books.
There are no stupid questions except the ones you don't ask.
Lapping means to polish until smooth. In machinery it implies flattening as well as polishing by abrasive action against a known flat reference.
The idea is to make that intersection of two planes as close to a single theoretical point (as seen in section) as you are able. Roughness on the surfaces makes an edge, which at the microscopic level looks like sawteeth. The "points" break down quickly. So the idea is to smooth, flatten and polish the back and the bevel as much as is practical.
Some go beyond what is practical and go to surgical sharpness, three or four passes of such an edge on oak and you are back to practical.
But for woodworkers the ability to make an edge incredibly sharp with what amounts to a chunk of rock has a primal survival appeal, like making fire with sticks. Or running down a gazelle.
Unleash the woodworker within...
Use the force.
David C.
Edit: Clarification
Edited 10/11/2005 2:57 pm ET by DCarr10760
Lapping, as the term is being used here, is taking an already reasonably sharp blade and, by using very fine grit papers or stones, giving the cutting surfaces a mirror polish. I ,for one, am not conviced that this is routinely needed to get a plane or chisel blade to cut well, but it is fun to do occasionally, and it impresses visitors.
In a machine shop, lapping refers to a very precise final finishing given to a piece being machined to bring it to its final dimensions and proper angles, it is mostly used to fine tune precision measuring and cutting tools rather than for ordinary production work.
John W.
Excellent. Thank you all very much.
In addition to technique, it's important, too, to use the correct terminology. All too often they are confused and, lately, incorrectly seem to be used interchangeably. But, their meanings are quite different.
A bevel is a measurement. Only. It's a measurement of an angle less than 90 degrees. It's only a number, e.g., 17 degrees, 21 degrees, etc.
However, a bezel is the diagonal face at the end of a blade, such as a chisel or hand plane. It is the cutting edge.
One grinds a bezel on a piece of steel by various methods, the scary sharp method being one of them.
The resulting angle created by your efforts is called the bevel - a measurement of the distance between the two angled surfaces expressed mathematically in degrees.
Left alone, the milled steel in the factory would likely not have a bevel - it's end would be at or near 90 degrees to it's flat surface. It is only through a grinding process that steel is taken away from the end creating a bezel. Once the tool has a low enough bevel, the tool will shave wood. A bezel measuring 17 degrees will probably shave wood, while a bezel measuring 60 degrees would not. Another way to say that is: A bezel with a bevel of 17 degrees will probably shave wood,... But, I guess that's overkill.
Not just to be picky. No sense sounding like a dufus when you meet a professional inquiring about some method or implement to accomplish your task. You want a sharp bezel to cleanly shave wood. When the bezel becomes dull, you want to re-sharpen it to recreate that low bevel - which is a sharp cutting edge.Griff
Hi Griff,
You are absolutely correct in your nomenclature, but the word bezel seems to me to have fallen out of general use, except for watches and meter faces.
I'm interested in language in general and woodworking terms in particular. So I looked in a turn of the century (not the recent one but the one prior) text on woodworking, The Complete Woodworker by Bernard E. Jones. Even in this book the word bezel is not defined as such, the term bevel is however used frequently.
So thanks for the reminder!
Perhaps the reason some woodworking terms become archaic is that now, in this country (at least), there is little formal education in the trades, so proper terminology is not always taught and many of us increasingly get our instruction by working for contractors or by reading magazines. Of course there are now college programs in fine woodworking around but at the Secondary level, shop classes are dwindling and the quality of the instruction is not always excellent.
Incidentally, this same book talks about grinding angles and sharpening angles. We now refer to the sharpening angle as the secondary or microbevel. I remember reading about sharpening and the use of secondary bezels in the 1980's and thinking that it was a new technique!
Best Regards,
David C
I do believe that you have the correct angle on things.
However, I learned about sharpening from Mike Dunbar during his Windsor chair classes and he's a stickler for using the correct word in the proper situation. And a stickler for having a proper bezel on one's chisel or plane.Griff
Shakespere has "I may be straight, though they themselves be bevel" (crooked). I find both words defined as stated by the earlier correspondent in my dictionary. It is sad that many interesting old tradesmen's words are being lost. Words lilke lintel, jamb, muntin, mullion, froe, snath, fleam, to mention a few.
Tom
Just one of the benefits of an industrial age - with all our power tools, we don't need to bother with all those 18th Century leftovers. Besides, looking at the state of education, there's fewer of us who can read , so why be upset.
Now, I have to admit. I'm stumped. Fleath?? Never heard of it that I remember.
I just helped replace a snath not too long ago for an old farmer's scythe. He said it was easier than getting out the lawnmower, fueling it, checking the oil level, pulling on the starter rope countless times to have it run for maybe a minute to cut one small patch of grass. So, he went back to earlier days and used a tool his ancestors regularly used to cut whole fields of grain. But, technically, that doesn't count since it's a farm implement rather than a woodworking tool or term.
And, I've been learning to become proficient in using a froe to split (actually, I think it's correctly called cleave) wood that I'll build a chair out of.
The rest seem fairly in use albeit you don't see them everyday. Some seem more apt to homebuilding than woodworking.
But, thanks, for the input. It was interesting. But, I've got to learn what fleath is. Sounds like something you wear that's made from goat skin or something.Griff
Checked with some serious on line dictionaries and no luck with fleath.
Next time I'm in my library, I'll check their big Webster's. The one that requires it's own desk to sit on.Griff
Well if you are using your froe to make shakes, you split, if you are using it to make weatherboard or chair parts you "rive"
As for "fleam" it was a tool used by medievel surgeons to open veins in order to re-establish the balance of bodily humors by way of bleeding. Not sure of its idiomatic meaning in woodworking. Although the router springs to mind :-)
David C
That's interesting. Thanks. Glad I'm a subject of modern medicine. As gruesome as it sometimes can be, it's no match to the abject violence of medieval medicine.Griff
Fleam is also the angle at which the file is applied to the saw tooth being sharpened.
Tom
In woodworking fleam is a term familiar to most saw users that sharpen their own saws and (of course) to saw doctors. It's specifically the angle filed on the edge of the cross-cut tooth to create the sharp point. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Thanks. Now, can you conjugate that verb?
Fleam...Flam....Flame?Griff
Why the hell would you worry about working part of the blade that is not remotely near the business end of the iron?Not sure I can say in here.. Like a wife.. You have to be on the same plane...
I recently revisited this method and was quite impressed with the results. Several Irons I was unable to previously get flat are now flat and the cutting edge produced is quite keen.
This is the first time I have worked with the 3M 77. It's not at all like contact cement in that it seems to have a very short open tack time, a bit of a challenge when you are attempting to attached 10 pieces of progressively graded sandpaper to a piece of sheet glass.
And another bonus is that I finally get to use up that bargain box of abrasives I purchased from Klingspor about 10 years ago.
Then enter a search on "scary sharp", it's been talked about at length. Talk of archaic woodworking language and other "such things" is sometimes the only thing that keep these threads going.
Did you know that the Kiwi fruit was developed in New Zealand and named after the native bird of the same name?
Sorry to disappoint you or disturb your reverie by having continued a topic contained in a response I received dealing with some of the history of woodworking. If you'll be so kind as to go back and reread the posts, you'll surely note that I wasn't the individual who related any experience with the scary sharp system, other than to mention the identity of the individual who introduced me to the art and his penchant for insisting on use of correct terminology. Surely you will agree that he is a skilled, knowledgeable craftsman eminently capable of insisting on the use of correct terminology in the craft as much as he is in insisting on correct technique when constructing a Windsor Chair. Or, would you?
My post (# 10), the first one I wrote on this topic, does not reminisce beyond the past year or two - hardly what I would consider hijacking the topic with "archaic woodworking language". You must also understand (as you undoubtedly will if you keep reading these posts) that the words introduced in the post you find offensive are not archaic - they are perfectly valid terms that exactly describe the tool or part to which they refer. They are not antiquated terms.
On the contrary, they are the exact terms those of us speaking English would use to identify the particular tools/parts. I will agree, however, that at least one of the tools, a scythe, to which one of the terms, snath, refers is an antiquated tool not much found in use here in the industrialized West (in parts of Europe, that's not true). But, lintel, jamb, muntin, mullion, and froe are commonly used words still regularly employed by knowledgeable craftsmen. That you might see some of them more frequently on Breaktime than on Knots is immaterial. Additionally, the terms "bevel" and "bezel" are current, 21st Century terminology widely in use in woodworking, mathematics, and elsewhere. Again, hardly archaic.
That someone else was kind enough to expand upon the topic by introducing (probably most of) us to some tool names not commonly found in a woodworking shop was, I think, a laudable effort. (That he was also able to add to the cultural worth of this unruly mob (myself included) by quoting Shakespeare was truly spectacular.) My sincere thanks, and admiration, to Tom Higby. That others, in turn, supplemented his initial posting by explaining or defining some of the terms not only adds to the body of knowledge we're all being introduced to (as I later indicated, learning that the handle I turned and fitted to a scythe actually has a name was startling), but also, as a recent poster noted, might just have been what has kept this thread going beyond the initial 8 explanatory postings. Frankly, I am grateful to every individual (DCarr, Cicero and SgianDubh) who thought to throw in his/her 2 cents and add some flavor to the topic. I don't consider it going off topic.
I'm sorry you feel differently.
John Griffin
P. S. In fact, isn't positing that a thread has gone off topic posting something that is, itself, off topic? Aren't you, then, guilty of that which you decry? Just a thought.
The breadth of your knowledge is truly impressive, but at the top of my screen, the topic is "Scary Sharp.." etc. That is what I was hoping to learn about.
I have noticed a large amount of off-topic and even personal posts lately. I was merely suggesting that in the absense of a moderator, we try to stay on topic. Your diversion from the topic of scary sharp technique is very interesting and deserves its own thread. Why not post it as such, so that others could access it? And yes, bezel and bevel are also well covered by many prior posts.
Edited 10/13/2005 9:57 pm ET by quartersawn
You still have not explained how I diverged from the topic. Was not the subject of my post, the actual name of the angled edge that cuts wood, exactly on point? Do you not agree that we should speak correctly about what we are discussing?Griff
Well Geesh,
Now I feel bad! Going off topic and all...
I guess I forgot about the white-hot focus some woodworkers have, and how important it is to maintain that focus at all times!
So forgive my lexical dalliances and let us return forthwith to the expressed topic so that you may glean such wisdom as you deem fitting.
Scary sharp, it is my preferred method now, of course it isn't adaptable to all edge tools, I cant figure out how to use the method to sharpen my twivil or any of my gimlets, it's overkill for my spud, (I just use a file).
I could use it on my holtzaxt if the haft didn't hit the wall when I sharpen on the obverse side, and I do use it for gluts but only the coarser grits (gluts take a real pounding if you aren't careful with the beetle).
I suppose I could point trunnels with it but it seems faster to use my stock knife- particularly if I am doing trunnels for several bents at one time.
Scarey sharp works great on my big socket slick (no waterstone is big enough). It only does okay on my bruzz, but you have to get the sandpaper right up to the edge of the glass and even then it's hard to lap all the way into the arris.
It does however work fine for jiggers and snitzel knives.
Oh and it works good for plane blades and chisels too! But everyone knows that!
Life is a journey, not a destination. Look out of the windows from time to time.
Best Regards,
David C.
Now thats a post!
In one of your posts you began: "The breadth of your knowledge is truly impressive,..."
Please understand that, in truth, I know very little and am a rank amateur. Even that title affords me more respect than I really deserve. I am still learning from an elementary standpoint - truly, I have trouble pounding a nail straight.
So, I guess, my amazement at the focus of your interest was somewhat surprising as I try to act like a sponge - any little bit of knowledge will assist me, in some way, to better master this craft. I will never become a craftsman such as grace the pages of FW and leave us (well, me anyway) in awe of their talent and vision.
In the years that I have been reading and studying this craft, I find that I cannot afford to limit my vision or interest to one narrow element of a much larger picture. Sharpening is important, to be sure. But too much else is happening to choose to wear blinders in one's attempt to focus your attention solely on one aspect of a single topic.
I'm afraid I'm not wording this as best I might. Bottom line: Unwind a little. Understand that the BB is merely an adjunct to discuss various topics. If one is serious about learning and mastering some skill, this cannot be your primary resource. Check out the books offered for sale by Taunton on it's main web site, including one very good one on sharpening by Leonard Lee and another by Thomas Lie-Nielsen (Found at http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/storesubcat_inc2.asp?cat=61&cols=2&template=bookblock2.asp&title=%3Cimg+src%3D%2Fstore%2Fmedia%2FTechniques%2Egif+border%3D0%3E&subcat=Techniques). You'll even find a video by Mike Dunbar discussing the proper way to hone the bezel on sandpaper for a scary sharp result.
Visit your library and see what's available. You will soon realize the depth of the topic and the sheer inability of this forum to adequately cover all aspects of the subject. If you then agree, I'll be happy to have you stumble along with me on the journey. In spite of my own limitations and inadequacies, it's been a lot of fun.
Best wishes.
Edited 10/14/2005 12:23 pm ET by Griff
The only problem with your request quartersawn is that this place is currently more like a social gathering of people in a bar that happen to be woodworkers of one sort or another.
Conversations-- threads-- just seem to drift off in different directions. Sometimes the extraneous bits brought in are more interesting than the original topic and make the place worth revisiting on a fairly regular basis. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
I agree whole heartedley Sqgian.You say it so well.
swarf.
arris.
chamfer.
Somebody had to say it.
Tom
Well M...I've read through the diatribe here, and all I can say is....I agree with ya! I tried all the purist sharpening methods, and machines, and whatever. Never bothered to look up the proper names of stuff mind you, but that's just me.
Anyway, I resorted one day to the 'scary sharp' methods, and I gotta agree with you. It's quick, easy, and gets one heck of a sharp edge against that wood. I truly enjoy my chisels now, and the planes, and....well...you already know. Even if we don't know the words.....we can cut it!
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