Replies

1. 
   BruceS | Jul 06, 2010 10:32am | #1

   Just how far could Govt.  mandates go?   Emergency Brakes on all Table saws? Bandsaws? Drill presses? Jointers? Miter Saws? Routers?   

   Why not install electronic overspeed trips on automobiles ?  And set them to 65MPH, speed kills!

   You can't fix stupid.

1. 
   bones | Jul 06, 2010 08:21pm | #5

   Gov't go to far?

   What, are really sugessting the government would require the populace to buy a non government good or service and use the law to enforce it?  Thats about as crazy as the government requiring you to buy heath insurance or nationalizing the car companies!   Not in America it could never happen!

1. 
   BruceS | Jul 15, 2010 07:23pm | #16

   I guess it's tough to type a sarcastic comment,  Sorry you didn't pick up on it.

2. 
   WillGeorge | Jul 09, 2010 09:29pm | #12

   Emergency Brakes on all Table saws??

   I for one would just like a mandated electronic motor brake that stopped the blade in a few seconds so I do not have to reach over a spinning blade to get a 'stick' out of the way for the next cut!

   I have never cut myself on/with a electric tool. I have often been cut using a hand tool.. Like a very sharp paring chisel or a sharp knife I was using....

   That said.. I will now go off and hone my chisels!

2. 
   forestgirl | Jul 06, 2010 12:49pm | #2

   Hot-button issue

   Hey, JB, I heard that story too.  I'm surprised there isn't a mile-long list of responses -- the back-story on Sawstop has, in the past, been quite the hot-button issue at Knots and other WWing forums.  Lot's of luck if the fur starts flying.

1. 
   jonnieboy | Jul 06, 2010 04:21pm | #3

   The Little Guy

   Forest Girl,

   Aside from the idea of gov't intervention or not, there's the perspective that the little guy is winning. I love that. Especially after the manufacturers all said no to this in the beginning.

   Sometimes I think a good idea takes a bit of insane confidence to keep going with it after so many people shut the door on it. For example, if Bosch, or Delta, or Ryobi all say no, that's a resoundingly loud no.   

   --jonnieboy

3. 
   davidewi | Jul 06, 2010 06:54pm | #4

   I am a Sawstop owner and I even feel that th litigation may be a little excessive. 

   I bought the sawstop after having a trusty Ryobi BT3100.  I consciously chose the saw based on what I felt were equivalent features to the competing models in the field (I have the big industrial 3HP - not the somewhat smaller Professional model).  I knew and understood that I was spending an additional $1000 for the brake capability - approx $2000 would get you most of the saws in the same class...or thereabouts. 

   My thought process led me to be OK with spending $1000 in "insurance" for a potentially devistating accident vs. $2000 for stitches for a "minor" table saw cut or over $10K for surgery.

   People say if you follow the rules you dont need a brake - and I agree.  I felt the price of the brake was worth it.  The equivalent is saying if you drive safe you dont need setbelts...but we know it is the other guy that causes the accident.  So in woodworking terms I did not want the other guy to be an odd kickback or momentary attention loss to eat a finger.  I stil have a healthy fear of the spinning blade...when I work without the blade guard I am very aware of where my hands are.   

   Now with all of that said $1000 is not in everyones budget.  So they may not choose the sawstop and that is OK.  But if we look at tablesaws for the past 50 years they have not changed alot.  Sure motos have gotten better and blades too..but a tablesaw has been a flat table with a drive assembly and motor.  There are varioations, but nothing radically innovative.  And as for safety, - bladeguards, and pawls are pretty obvious!  Same can be said for splitters. 

   So in 50 years we have put a man on the moon, computers, flat screen TV, internet, computers, jet propulsion, cars that parallel part THEMSELVES, airbags, radar based cruise control, heat seeking missiles, cruise missiles that turn left on main street and hit a target in a window...etc etc etc.  So how has the tablesaw industry not added some fundamental safety????  Id say that it is well overdue.  And I think the past profits have paid for the R&D so the consmer should not have to foot the bill.

   IN concluding, the sawstop is a great machine that I will put up against any other - but it is not for eveyone.  Howeer, I feel the industry has not served US, the consumers, well in that they have barely addressed safety. 

   And as for the guy who lost his fingers...he is THE POSTERCHILD FOR BAD PRACTICE!!!  (here's your sign)  He should sue his boss for not providing training and moderately safe working conditions.  And the lawyer is a gold digger that makes things more expensive for all of us.  (Remember the woman who sued McDonalds for spilling hot coffee in her lap?  Isnt the defining characteristic of coffee that it is HOT!??!?!?!?!?? - -Here's your sign)

   Tace care all - lets go make some sawdust!

   Dave

1. 
   poplarguy | Jul 07, 2010 11:57am | #6

   Some thoughts

   I also own a Sawstop for pretty much the same reasons, and, like you, I'm still afraid of the blade.    I also agree that the industry does seem to be slow in addressing safety issues, and not just for saws, and that other industries have continually added safety features, so woodworkers should expect our suppliers to do the same. 

   Anyway, I'll throw out some ideas about this and then duck.

   First, one issue with the brake is that is requires a pretty massive saw to take the shock.  That makes it difficult to put on a small, reasonably portable jobsite saw unless the whole saw is the brake.  If a manufacturer made a jobsite saw with the sawstop technology, where the whole saw would be ruined if the brake activated, it would work, and Sawstop could probably sell them for not much more than current jobsite saws.  Would businesses buy a "single use" saw?  I don't know.  I'm guessing they would, since replacing a $500 saw is peanuts compared to what an accident costs.  And after a few triggers a foreman might start to invest in a bit more training and be a bit stricter about enforcing job safety practices.   Alternately, we could see a lot of Festool circular saw and multifunction table clones.  

   Second, is offering a saw with the technology option enough, or is this mandatory?  I ask because a few years ago I chose to buy a car that does not have ABS brakes.  Since ABS brakes are (and were) widely available, should they have been mandatory?  If I have an accident can I sue Nissan for allowing me the option to cheap out on safety equipment that they know works?  Notwithstanding seatbelt rules in most states, is it legal to sell a new car without seat belts?   At what point does safety equipment become mandatory?  To bring this back to saws, if Ryobi offers a $250 jobsite saw without the brake, and the same saw with an embedded single use brake for $500, and if a contractor buys the cheap saw and an employee gets hurt, is the first saw "defective"? 

   My two cents.  This guy doesn't deserve so much money for being an idiot.  I also don't think that the saw was defective.  Passing the buck to the manufacturer doesn't help address the  clear failures in training and safety practices on the jobsite, nor does it drive customers to insist on better equipment if they can buy cheap and then sue the manufacturer when something goes wrong.  Yes, Ryobi should have tried to offer a saw with a brake, especially after Sawstop took off, but their failure should be punished by people buying different brands.   

   Anyway, I'll pass the soapbox to the next person.

   Simon

    

2. 
   Dreamcatcher | Jul 15, 2010 08:56am | #15

   Dreamcatcher responds:

   There has been some really good discussion here. I wish I had come upon this thread sooner so as to be more a part but it has been much fun just the same reading through this topic. I picked out a few quotes I really liked (or disliked) and thought I'd share some of my own views. So, lend me that soapbox for a moment.

   "So how has the tablesaw industry not added some fundamental safety????  Id say that it is well overdue.  And I think the past profits have paid for the R&D so the consmer should not have to foot the bill."

   Interesting statement. It made me think about the evolution of machinery and how some tools have come a long way while others are essentially the same as their initial carnation many years ago. I think the table saw has actually had a lot of improvement over it's span. First is in the guarding. Funny to think that it wasn't long ago that you could buy a tablesaw and it might not have any blade guards, above or below. Just a table and a blade (Guarding technology is rather recent on many tools, especially bandsaws and drill presses). How about that tilt arbor? Have you ever seen/used a tilt table; it is difficult and super-dangerous. Then left tilt vs. right tilt. I am not sure if height adjustment has always been available but that is certainly a good mechanism. Table sizes have typically increased. Fences have generally become easier to use and adjust, longer and taller than they were, and more reliable. Magnetic switches are more common. Throat plates are tighter to the blade, and blades themselves are sharper for longer. Oh, and let's not forget about riving knives, splitters, pawls, dust collection, split blade guards, stock feeders, featherboards, and pushsticks.

   Not saying there couldn't be more improvement. Just saying I am glad for what we have already.

   "I also own a Sawstop for pretty much the same reasons, and, like you, I'm still afraid of the blade."

   Not to be condescending but I don't think you can own a SawStop and have a true fear of the blade. Off the cuff, I'd say it was more of an 'acting' sense of the blade like saying you shoot a Nerf dart gun with the same fear as if you were using a real 9mm pistol.

   "Passing the buck to the manufacturer doesn't help address the  clear failures in training and safety practices on the jobsite..."

   Training? You mean like shop class? You remember, that high school "blow-off" course that so many of our nation's schools have canceled. I mean what good is a safe working knowledge of woodworking in today's high tech world? You can't make a career out of woodworking these days and I don't even think it's a viable hobby, certainly not a popular interest. 

   "...the european market for machinery serves the pros.  I've been led to believe that power tools (maybe all tools) are expensive and are a serious investment.  Those who invest in them are serious about what they are doing."

   I am sort of a fan of overly-expensive tools. But I am a dedicated professional; a remodeler to be exact. I am also in favor of legally restricting homeowners from working on their own homes and making homebuilding a true professional career obtained only through accredited university study leading to a Bachelors, Masters, Doctorate degree. Then I could charge $180/hr. for what I do (which is actually quite physically demanding and inherently dangerous, let me remind you) and the public is given the assurance that their carpenter knows what he should know.

   "Well, we all should know by now that the lawyers will ruin anything for a price. Now, if we can just figger a way to turn them onto each other."

   One should be allowed to sue a lawyer for raising the price of goods and services due to his court cases and the precedence those cases set. For instance, if I feel my doctor bill is too high I should be allowed to sue the lawyer who sued my doctor in the past to cause him to have to carry such high malpractice insurance.  In this Ryobi case, I should be able to sue Osorio's lawyer if the price of Ryobi tools or tablesaws in general increase. BTW, how much money do you think Osorio got to take home after paying his lawyer? (hint: probably only about 40% of the $1.5 mil.)

   "If we had accurate information, it could tell us where we need to place our attention..."

   I totally agree - I'm a sucker for good statistics and surprised that this court case hasn't brought any about. I do believe thought that even the pre-educated graph would curve towards the end, also because of complacency. I think that is the second most dangerous aspect to carpentry; inexperience being #1. 

    DC  

1. 
   poplarguy | Jul 19, 2010 02:36pm | #17

   Hot dogs vs. fingers

   "Not to be condescending but I don't think you can own a SawStop and have a true fear of the blade. Off the cuff, I'd say it was more of an 'acting' sense of the blade like saying you shoot a Nerf dart gun with the same fear as if you were using a real 9mm pistol."

   Hmm.  Not to diverge from the point of the thread, but I'm not sure that's a good analogy.  It's more like putting on a kevlar vest and then having someone shoot you with the 9mm.  In theory, you know the vest should work, but do you really want to test it that way?  If you look at the hot dog demos they push the hot dogs into the blade at a (mostly) normal pace.  When the inventor was finally convinced to use his own finger to show how the saw works he inched his finger to the side of the blade and barely nicked it at which point the brake activated.  Very different from the way he shoves in the hot dog, and he invented the technology. 

   Rationally, you are right, and a part of my brain knows that if I ever get careless and get my hands too close to the blade, I should get a save.  (Which is why I bought the thing.)  But fear isn't always rational, and my brain also knows that there is a (probably very small) chance that the system won't work for some reason or another, and I know that the blade is sharp enough to cut me when I'm just changing the blade.   Besides, I finally lost the bruises on my fingernails from a small kickback two months ago.   

   Now, proving I can't leave well enough alone, I don't know that it's all the lawyers' fault.  It's easly to blame them, but ultimately it's juries that come up with the awards, and few lawyers ever serve on juries.  I have to think if juries didn't award such huge amounts in what appear to be somewhat frivolous lawsuits a lot of plaintiff lawyers would be driving more modest cars.

   Simon

4. 
   flairwoodworks | Jul 08, 2010 04:42pm | #7

   I guess it's my turn on the soapbox.

   First let me say that I think that it is great that the North American market makes it easy for "hobbyists" to do woodwork.  The range from a light-duty-but-workable $400 Delta contractors's saw for the DIYer to a top-of-the-line-everything-digital Felder sliding tablesaw for the professional shop costing tens of thousands of dollars is incredible makes the equipment available to almost anyone.  And that can be the problem.

   I speak now not from experience, but from what I understand from what I have read on forums like this one:  the european market for machinery serves the pros.  I've been led to believe than power tools (maybe all tools) are expensive and are a serious investment.  Those who invest in them are serious about what they are doing.

   What I just wrote may be way off, but I think it's fairly accurate.  Just my thoughts.

   Next, please.

5. 
   bduffin104 | Jul 08, 2010 07:32pm | #8

   IMHO the government has no business telling us what our table saws will look like.

   Bret

6. 
   weathergeek | Jul 09, 2010 01:14pm | #9

   OK...I saw the NPR article on the sawstop. Here's my question. If the sawstop people are so hot to

    get this technology into other table saws...power tools...etc...why don't they release the patent into

    the public domain? Well I guess we all know why they don't do that!

   The point is...before you question other manufacturers motivations...maybe you should take a hard look at your own.

   Jim

1. 
   WillGeorge | Jul 09, 2010 09:58pm | #13

   .why don't they release the patent into the public domain?

   It all comes down to money! What if they made a license for $100 US dollars for each table saw made with their product?

   I would pay that but I would think a replacement that 'triggered' would cost me a bunch of money...

   I have nothing against the sawstop... I use power tools all the time.. All my life of 69 years..

   I have used air tools that will take off a Tank Turret.. I NEVER  received anything from the USA military about safety except for weapons used and backing up a huge motor vehicle without a helper to guide you while backing it up.... And a few old movies about having Sex without protection.... That was way back in the early 1960's for me..

7. 
   acornw | Jul 09, 2010 04:45pm | #10

   The Bell Curve

   Well, we all should know by now that the lawyers will ruin anything for a price. Now, if we can just figger a way to turn them onto each other.

   I am interested how mathematical concepts enter into our world - algorithms in search engines, and bell curves for statistical distributions.

   Today, I wonder if the standard bell curve (as described by two characteristics for any statistical modeling) would look if one plotted likliehood of a table saw accident against lifetime hours at a saw. Then we'd compare that curve to one that showed accidents vs training.

   Lifetime hours woul;d have a huge peak at the least hours, then dip with increased usage, and then probably increase with increased use (complacency?). The shape of the curve would be telling.

   Accidents vs training would likely not be much of a curve. Increased training will decrease accidents to a low level line.

   If we had accurate information, it could tell us where we need to place our attention whether we are consumers, employees, employers, manufacturers, govenrments sworn to protect us from ourselves, or judges and juries. It is possible to use reason in place of fear and emotion.

   Too much to hope for?

   Dave S

1. 
   BruceS | Jul 09, 2010 08:58pm | #11

   It is possible to use reason

   Very well said.   During the last five years of employment, before my retirement, my plant got heavily into safety.    Unlike many of my fellow workers I always looked way ahead on a job or proceedure for possible safety problems or an easier and safer way to accomplish a job.    When, "know it all" OSHA came in for an inspection, I was deligated to give a plant tour.    Well the book/regulation smart inspector started pointing out changes that should be made.    The real "winner" suggestion was to put fire extinguishers directly in the middle and mounted on the 13.2 KVA switchgear and the 480V breaker boards.      I asked him what fool would grab an extinguisher from that point,  if there is a problem there.      We ended agreeing that they should be mounted 25 feet away.   By the way,  I would NEVER have used co2 on a 13.2KVA breaker anyway.

   Reason and common sence should trump stupidity.

1. 
   WillGeorge | Jul 09, 2010 10:09pm | #14

   13.2KVA breaker anyway.. Good point! I would have cleared the building and told the fire department that a 13.2KVA breaker box was on fire...

   Most local fire departments have the power cut off if it is reasonable for the situation at hand...

8. 
   baobab | Dec 02, 2010 08:02pm | #18

   who pays the bills?

   I just wonder who pays the bills of the guys that having a finger severed cannot work and will go to the unemployment payroll?

   What about the medical expenses of the many that do not have medical insurance.  Me and you pay those bills. Tha is why the government should be interested.

   It is that simple but difficult to understand it seems.