Hello all. This is my first post on this forum. I was directed here from a member of another forum thinking I could pick up more of the info I am looking for.
Let me first start by saying I am not trying to start any wars here between all of the saw gods. I am looking for opinions from Saw Stop owners and users about the saw. I am looking to possibly purchase one of these saws for the commercial cabinet shop I run. We currently are using a PM 66, which I love, but am looking to the SS for safety reasons. I will probably dedicate the PM to doing dadoes and such. I mainly want to know if these saws are built for and can hold up to industrial type use such as a PM or Uni. I know the main selling point of this saw is, of coarse, the safety feature. But if you take that away, will it hang with the PM and Uni. I have watched the Charles Neil video about the saw but I would like to hear from others who own this saw or use this saw.
Also I was wondering if any of you Saw Stop owners/users have ever used it to cut laminate? Most of the cabinets/counter tops we build are laminate so if there is an issue with this I would like to know. We also build most of our cabinets from a product called Pro Core (1/2″ plywood sandwiched between 1/4″ MDF with thermofused melamine on the surfaces). Have any of you cut any products such as this (melamine) and encountered any problems? I emailed Saw Stop with these questions and received this…
In response to your request, the brake
should only react to conductivity. So unless there was some embedded metal or mirrored surface in the laminate, it should not activate.
Thanks for any insight you guys can give me.
I appreciate all of your input/comments/help.
Replies
Welcome to Knots!
You might wanna try doing a search of this forum -- it's been discussed at some length in numerous threads. (Use the "Advanced Search" feature you'll see at the top of the left column.) Lots of opinions. In fact, one past thread specifically asked for personal user experience and it had some good posts.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I have one and love it. As far as laminate is concerned, you may be better off with one that has a scoring blade incorporated if you do a LOT of that.
I have found using the blade just barely proud of the saw surface makes for a good score cut in Pro Core (love that stuff). Then flip the piece and raise the blade for the regular cut.
My only gripe is that I had to enlarge the dust collection hole to 7" (happens to be the size of my ducting) to do a good job of collecting the dust in the bottom of the cabinet.
BTW, their mobile stand is the best I have ever used.
Cheers,
Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
I purchased my SS last March - with the SS mobile base, 52" rails, dado brake and extra insert. Since then, I've added an Excalibur sliding table (49" model) and the Excalibur blade guard/DC (not installed yet).
Unquestionably, the SS will do everything the PM's and Delta's will do. Will it do it better... no... but it will impress the ladies!
You will love the riving knife and the larger table. It weighs something like 600 or 700 lbs so don't drop it :0)
As for cutting, just make sure you have the proper "sharp" blade and you'll be fine.
Edited 1/29/2009 5:32 pm ET by Tbagn
A question on the thought of 'it will do anything a delta or pm will do'. My understanding is that the SS will not accept a molding head, even with the dado brake. Can anyone confirm or deny?
I am a hobbyist interested in the contractor version, but want to continue to use my molding head and cutters.
Hope there is a definitive answer by someone who has used a molding head on a SS.
anwalt
The idea of a moulding head on a table saw scares the bejuses out of me.But that is just me.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
A stack of dado cutters removes as much material as a "moulding cutter" of that width. So a dado head should cause as much concern. (It does to me).I would never use a dado on the typical 5/8" arbor cabinet saw. European, Australian, New Zealand saws used in commercial shops have long been forbidden to use dado cutters and manufacturers make the arbors too short to accept them to avoid liability issues.The "dado head" on my Hammer B3 saw/spindle shaper IS a molding cutter, specialized for its single purpose. But the saw arbor on that machine is 30mm, massive compared to 5/8" (15.875mm) and just 1.75mm less than that of the 1-1/4" shaper spindle itself. The strength of that arbor, the fact that it has stabilizing pins in addition to its large diameter, combined with the 4 hp motor and the control offered by the sliding table makes dado operations safe and surprisingly quiet.Both the Saw Stop Industrial Cabinet Saw and the Contractor model have 5/8" blade arbors. They take 8" dado stacks. But that requires a special brake assembly. They probably don't have a brake assembly to stop molding cutters, but mounting such a cutter is apparently possible.Rich
"I would never use a dado on the typical 5/8" arbor cabinet saw."
Maybe I should move to Europe as to protect myself from myself. I am happy for you and your 30 mm arbor with 4 hp.
What is your point? I have been using the set up you describe for as long as I can remember, Never ever a problem. I do not know how much wood you have cut in your 60 some odd years. I can tell you as a full time carpenter/ cabinet maker /woodworker, I have cut some wood in the past 32 years.
I respect your opinion on many topics, this one weighs in on the gloated side.
I agree with you on the subject of slider vs cabinet saw ,I have both and use them accordingly.
Richard, not everyone drives a Mercedes.
Respectfully , Tom.
Tom,Calm down. Your reaction is all too typical to this kind of situation.I didn't make up the safety laws that exist in Europe. And I don't enforce them. But I think they are excellent laws.You are in good company with workers here who say exactly what you have said."I have been using the [dado] set up for as long as I can remember, Never ever a problem."I don't doubt that for a minute. But that doesn't make the practice any less dangerous.I don't tell anyone they can't use a dado on their saw. I just said I didn't. On a standard table saw. I never have. I consider it a dangerous practice. I am well aware that I am in a very small minority. That doesn't make my concerns any less valid. I cut dados before with a router.I consider ripping on a standard table saw a dangerous practice. I have ripped almost exclusively on my band saw previously.This is the first machine of this capacity that I have owned. I am not gloating about this saw. I've saved a lifetime to acquire it and I'm glad I have it. I got it for its capabilities and I feel their importance is very valid. There are others who share such opinions about these kind of machines.Things as simple as a riving knife have suddenly become available on saws in this country, because their clear superiority to the junk standard splitters that have been so common on our machines has become known. I think other changes will happen as well and I think that's a good thing.I have said before that I think it is extremely dangerous practice for a machine operator to have his/her hands any where near the cutting mechanism during an operation. Just because it has been standard practice in our field forever does not change the danger.In other fields, machine operators' hands are forced to be on switches that must be activated simultaneously for the operation to happen. That is, hands CANNOT be near danger. Guards must be in place or interlocks will shut off the equipment, etc., etc. Machinery must be robust enough to withstand the stresses it is put to.This is true in printing, dye cutting, paper cutting, metal machining, the list goes on and on. Machinery in those fields to make simple cuts costs far more than my saw. So don't imply I'm being an elitist. My machine is hardly the Mercedes of saws. There are other brands that can claim that distinction. But Mercedes makes taxi cabs and pickup trucks also. And those pedestrian machines share the superior design that Mercedes proudly claims central to their philosophy.There is NOTHING exotic on my saw. The most surprising thing about it is that it is just an assembly of ordinary nuts, bolts, washers, steel plate, etc. It is just designed and executed in a way that is mostly unknown here. Except for custom-made gear.My Clear Vue cyclone, IS exotic. It IS a Mercedes. There is no other dust collector like it. It has an exotic plastic construction that makes it lighter and more efficient than the competition by a wide margin. And it has an exotic 5 hp motor made in the US by Leeson. The fact that the whole thing is made here, designed here by a fanatic who refused to accept the common wisdom that dictated poor design of dust collectors for decades, and built by a mom-and-pop operation that started in their garage is what attracted me to it. I'm proud that this is an American product and that this kind of design is the product of American thinking. We used to be at the leading edge of such things, and we need to do it again. It grieves me that the kind of saw I have proudly talked about is unavailable from any American manufacturer and that the clear superiority of its design gets met with thinking that says, "We don't need none of that stinkin' high class kind of stuff here."Tell ya what WOULD make me gloat. If I could say what I've said in the previous posts about this kind of equipment, and end the sentence with, "And it's made right here in the U.S!" We could do it so easily! And we could do it SO much better.You're entitled to your opinion and so am I.Rich
Exotic: Foreign or imported. From that definition, I think that your saw is exotic. On the other hand: Clearview - made in the USA. It is not exotic. Of course there other meanings for the word.
I have a question? Why do you think a dado is dangerous. I have done quite a bit of dadoing on the RAS. I have always felt confident and still can't imagine why it is dangerous. In fact everyone says the RAS is dangerous. With one hand on the table and the other on the saw handle, a shield over the blade, what can go wrong: what am I missing? I must confess that I only use the RAS for cross cutting. I have often wondered, though, why they use such a small arbor shaft on the saws. Even a 3/4 inch would be a lot stronger.
Edited 2/2/2009 12:39 am ET by Tinkerer3
Thanks for the reply Rich, I am ok now . I guess we all have different views on what is dangerous? I apologize for elitist insinuation. Good luck with the new shop.
Tom.
I have been told and read that you can not put a molding head on the Saw Stop. You can conatct SS @
SawStop, LLC9564 S.W. Tualatin RoadTualatin, OR 97062503-570-3200 - phone503-570-3303 - fax[email protected]
http://www.sawstop.com/company/contact.php
Thanks for the input guys. I will do a search on here and see what I can find.
Edited 1/30/2009 7:37 am ET by mecabman
Mecabman,
Welcome to Knots, a great forum with lots of helpful friendly folks. I've had a SawStop for two years and think it's a great saw, well built and will stand up to alot of work. I have no qualms about recommending it.
One note of caution: If you decide to make zero clearance throat plates, be sure to remove the riving knife. Otherwise you'll discover how well the brake works.
Neil
I've rough sized some sheet formica on my Sawstop. No issue with the brake. You can test material before turning on the saw, if you're not sure, by touching it to the blade. At worst, you can disable the brake before a cut, which apparently is necessary for very wet or PT wood.
Welcome, Mecabman, glad you made it over here. Hope you get some useful input!
Thanks for pointing me in this direction.
You are most welcome, hope you have time to hang around here, in addition to WWA!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Ooops, almost forgot. Click here to read John White's take on the SawStop after using it in the Fine Woodworking shop for an unspecified period of time. He's a power tool guru, lots of experience, so his opinion can be taken seriously, IMHO.
You beat me to it!! I was going to look up that thread when I had a minute. I would certainly give his opinion a great deal of weight.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
welcome:
you cannot go wrong with the saw. I agonized for at least a year before dropping the money on the saw. Finally did and it has met all of my expectations and more. A few points:
It is a high quality saw which will do anything that the other better saws will do.
The safety feature is tremendous. While I am no less careful than I was previously, the peace of mind with the brake and riving knife is worth, well, I don't know how you put a price on that.
I love the blade guard and actually use it. It is low in profile so it doesn't get in the way. And it helps tremendously with the dust collection.
Plenty of power and I have the 3 horse.
I had a jet contractor saw previously. I set the 2 saws up back to back, so I have a large work station in the middle of my shop. I use a rip blade on the SS (which I use 90% of the time) and leave a cross cut blade and my miter gauge on the jet. No more changing blades and no more putting my miter gauge on the wall and on the saw and back again.
Spend the extra money. It is worth it. pmm
mecabman,
If you get the Saw Stop, I think you will find it excellent for your needs. It works as advertised as far as the safety feature and it is at the high end of the quality range for its design as a cabinet saw. Fit and finish are unsurpassed by other saws of the same design.
No saw wars, but, for your professional needs, safety issues and cutting of laminate materials I think you should, instead consider getting a sliding table saw. I have a Hammer model. Other good choices are Felder (Hammer's parent company), Minimax.
These machines begin at a price about 50% more than the Saw Stop, but, IMO offer much more for any use, but especially for a commercial shop.
I am a nut about safety. I don't think a machine operator's hands should ever be any where near the operating parts of any kind of machinery. The Saw Stop achieves safety by stopping the blade should the operator's fingers touch the blade. There is nothing about the machine design that helps keep those hands away from the blade. The safety design is a work-around to fix an inherent design flaw of all such cabinet saws.
On a sliding table saw, safety is inherent in the design. European standards are much higher in this regard than have ever been the case in this country. Work can be locked to the table for virtually any kind of operation and the operator's hands are several feet from the blade, where they should be, on the perimeter of the table, as the work is securely carried through the cut.
These machines also come fitted with blade brakes as standard equipment. Stopping the blade within 2-3 seconds after power-off is a huge safety factor. (of course an electronic blade brake can be fitted to any machine. Consider getting one for the Saw Stop if that's the machine you decide to buy).
These machines come with the option of fitting a scoring blade for dealing with laminate material. A sliding table saw does everything well, but lives and breathes to handle sheet goods. Both sides of any kind of veneered goods come out of a cut with the scoring blade engaged looking like they were cut with a scalpel.
The increased initial expense of these kinds of machines is very quickly made up by their increased productivity and if you have the work to feed them, will pay off continually vs lesser machines.
Do yourself a favor and try to "demo" a machine at a shop near you. Usually Hammer/Felder or Minimax can help you find one of their customers who will do that. Both of them have DVDs which showcase their equipment. Watching them is a revelation. Once you've used a sliding table saw, you will NEVER want to use a standard cabinet saw.
Rich
We actually already have a slider. We have an Altendorf like this......http://www.altendorfamerica.com/equipment/manufacturers/altendorf/f45/f45_standard.htm
mecabmanNice.How will a Saw Stop add to your capabilities?Rich
Now THAT is an interesting question.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Edited 1/31/2009 8:12 pm by PeterDurand
One issue that I've seen over and over and over in commercial, residential and heavy construction is that a worker who is protected and knows he is protected is far more productive than a worker who is constantly doing two jobs: the job he's being paid to do while expending energy to keep himself safe.It always pays off in productivity to get the extra equipment, wear the harness, build the scaffold, put up the handrail, use the guard.
Yup.
We actually do more cutting on our regular TS than our slider. The guy who does most of the cutting prefers it. I think a lot of it just has to do with change and what you are used to. We are a small shop, only 4 of us, not a high end production shop. We build casework for schools. The Saw Stop was mainly just to replace the PM 66 for safety reasons. I know the slider is probably geared more to what we do it is just a matter of taking the time to get used to it. I guess once you have learned all the "tricks" to it it can be a very productive saw. I id a quick search for sliding table saw videos but didn't have much luck of seeing one in production use.
mecabman,Please don't take offense in this. Most people who know enough to buy an Altendorf have gotten to that point in life by having learned to use it.I guess I find the quantum leap in capabilities of a slider very intuitive compared to a "standard" cabinet saw. But I'll certainly agree that one is most productive on the machine one knows best. It's very difficult for most North American workers to get away from using that big old rip fence the way they always have, and to rely on the slider and to cut on the left side of the blade.I doubt that you'll find any videos showing you how to be productive on the machine. But I'll bet the Altendorf dealer could help hook you up with other shops to get some experience.You could even benefit by getting in touch with Minimax. They do high-quality training on their equipment. Different brand, similar functioning. I don't know about Felder, but they may also offer training courses.Rich
No offense taken. Like I said, it's just a matter of familiarizing ourselves with it and making ourselves use it. Your right, it is difficult to get away from what you are used to.
If you have own a business the Sawstop is definitely the way to go. Think workmans comp, Insurance, etc. Your carrier should be able to discount your rates if you have one installed. The saw essentially does what it is supposed to. Although despite all the cheerleading for the product it suffers from some of the ills of other saws and also its own unique set of issues. Namely the first couple of times a cartridge is accidently blown will bother you and you'll start to wonder if it was really worth it. I run a school shop and I think we've trashed maybe 12 blades in the last 4 years we've had the machine. At over $100.00 a pop for blade and cartridge you can do the math. Oh yeah, I forgot, three of those trips were on dado blades (one of which was a Forrest set). Granted we are in a school environment, and I can't be in three places at once so a lot of the false triggers have had to do with numbskulls running used 2 x 4's laden with nails through the saw before I could stop them and wring their necks.
Then there is the issue of fit and finish. I've always thought imported equipment from Asia tends to be finished to lower standards. And the little imperfections on the Sawstop sort of prove my point. Again, I should preface this with the caveat that we have one of the first saws shipped to North America. so some of their manufacturing bugs may have been worked out. In our case one annoying example of poor tolerances in the manufacturing process are the crank handles. The bore on the cast iron cranks is bigger than the shaft they go on. so when the wheel is cranked, particularly on the blade tilt the wheel wobbles. An easy fix by simply inserting some brass shims to take up the slop. But if you pay a premium for the machine shouldn't one expect more?
I could go on with all the little things that bug me about our machines but ultimately I'm glad we have them for no other reason than it helps me sleep better at night knowing someone might not slice their fingers off the next day.
Edited 2/1/2009 4:23 pm ET by ted
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