I hope you wizards find this interesting.
The top surface had bad circular stains and some other blemishes. The wood is mahogany.
1) I sanded the center using a 6″ Festool ROS only until there were no more traces of the stain.
2) The existing finish was very dark, so I stained using Minwax Dark Walnut (I love the look of Red Mahogany stain but I wanted to match the existing color). The results were unacceptable –
– – a) The dark walnut was too light – it didn’t blend with the outer edge well
– – b) The circle stains re-appeared
3) I tried a shellac top to see if it would help – it didn’t
4) I sanded again, using my 5″ Rigid ROS (it gets into the corners better) w/ 320
– – a) The Minwax stain penetrated and remains (althogh it’s lighter than the final finish will be)
– – b) the circle stains still show
– – c) the outer halo is where the original finish was not sanded in the first sanding
Feel free (as I know you do anyway) to lambaste me for what I have already done. I may yet decide that I will cease using penetrating pigment stains, although I have had lots of success in the past, including on mahogany. But my concern is what I should do at this point to save the top.
My feeling is that I should first deal with the circular stain. Is oxalic acid (wood bleach) appropriate? I assume I should treat the entire table top, not just the circle.
The second task is to color the surface. I do not have any mahogany to experiment with. OPTION A – If I stick with pigment penetrating stain, I can probably concoct a reasonably close match for the rest of the table by mixing some ebony stain with the dark walnut, although it sure would be nice to have a sample to experiment with. I will test it on some other type of wood to get an idea – it won’t work if the ebony “grays” the color instead of darkening the dark walnut. Or maybe I stain the whole top with dark walnut so it is uniform, and if it needs darkening I go with OPTION B and apply a dark Gel Stain.
The third task is to top coat it with wipe-on poly or shellac. Either will be difficult because the lip on the edge will make the start and end of each stroke difficult without depositing a blob of the finish. But I usually manage to get it pretty good even though I find it hard.
The pictures show the overview (it’s a handsome table) and the top. Both pictures were taken with flash but they look pretty accurate.
The Wood Loon
Acton, MA
Replies
It is always a real challenge to try to refinish part of something, especially commercial finishes that appear to combine both stain (perhaps dye, too) and also pigmented toner. (It looks to me like the edge moldings have been fairly heavily toned.)
Sanding is seldom a good way to remove old finish. Older stains that have penetrated retain their binder so that new stains don't penetrate evenly. Strippers can help pull the original binder out of the wood so that new stains penetrate properly. You can probably remove the top shelf fairly easily, so that you could work on it without risking the finish on the rest. I would get some mahogany in order to make tests that will be closer to final results than working on the actual project.
Also, be sure that you finish your sanding by hand. ROS sanding complicates matters with cross grain swirls that pigmented stains magnify, and even if not distinct because you sand to a fine grit they tend to "muddy" the finish. Sanding the final grit by hand would allow you to stop sanding at 180 or 220 so that you get reasonable hang up for the pigmented stain.
It is seldom possible to get good matches with stain from a single can. It's generally better to separate the steps. You have MUCH more control that way. Dye by itself, then pigment only stain, then toner, then top coat, rather than trying to mix up something that will do it all at once. Finding the finishing materials is sometimes a challenge unless you live in a large municipality. Dye is available from a fair number of on-line sources, toner is sold in aerosol versions by companies specializing in refinishing products, and gel stains are pigment only stains and should be available locally. Try real paint stores instead of the big boxes.
Steve - How do you know so much? And why are you so kind as to help us neophytes? Thank you!I shop Ace Hardware for Minwax/Cabot stains and chemicals, and all else I get at a very serious paint store, Rockler or other WW stores, or Homestead. I've never bought any finishing supplies at the big boxes. I am trying to do this right, which is why I am asking so many questions. I will be trying my first toner job using TransTint on a maple piece as soon as it arrives (the local Rockler had every color except Honey Amber). I learn best by doing - I anticipate understanding how dyes work much better after I actually use one. There are a few statements I don't understand or want to clarify.
1) STRIPPERS - I tried one ("Strypeeze") and it didn't seem to do much that was good
2) BLACK CIRCLE - is oxalic acid worth trying?
3) ROS - I sand w/ the ROS to 320 to minimize sanding marks but you're saying 180 works better for hang - would it work to hand sand 180 with the grain after using the ROS at 320? It seems like that would decrease the amount of manual labor.
4) GEL STAINS - Don't they work somewhat like a toner, adding color atop the sealed in dye and penetrating stain?
5) "TONER is sold in aerosol versions" - I will have to look for that...PS - I have not found any "Mahogany" stain (Cabot or Minwax), just "Red Mahogany" which I use and love - but it's not near dark enoughDoug
The Wood Loon
Acton, MA
I would ROS to 180 or 220 and then hand sand, with the grain with the same grit. You almost never need to go finer than that on the bare wood. You won't save time by doing an extra couple of grits with the ROS before going to the final grit with hand sanding.
The oxalic acid won't have any effect on pigmented stain. If what you have are water stains from before you began the re-finishing project then it might work to lighten dark marks. .
Don't go very much by the names on stains. It might be a walnut stain or something entirely else, but be the right color. For dyes I recommend water soluble powdered stain for use on bare wood, transtint for mixing with top coats such as shellac or lacquer to create a dye toner. There is often a dye color called "brown mahogany" that is often a good starting place to get the right darkness. Then adjust for more or less red, with a pigment stain over that, often after sealing the dye with a wash coat.
Gel stains can be used somewhat like a toner, as as you say, but with fairly limited ability to keep an even finish without just wiping subtantial portions off. You can only get a little darker, by wiping a little less vigorously. It still is good to use it like paint. The spray toner has a larger proportion of binder and so makes a stronger toned coat. Behlen and Mohawk are two brands of the spray toner, but distribution is rather limited for non-professionals.
The deleted post was mine, saying, basically, PLEASE do not "refinish" by sanding the d___d finish off. The first thing that should be removed from a 'refiinisher's " repertoire of tools is a SANDER, .Stripper at least preserves some of the aged wood. You are back to bare wood. You might as well go to Home Depot and build it.
I think Steve's suggestion of removing the top tier and working on it separately is an excellent one.
Trying to match it all is going to be problematic. I do NO staining, so I can't help in any way.
AND I will also say, it is a "nice" piece, it probably isn't too old, and you should do what you want to do based on that. The original owner put a wet planter on the top shelf--it's about 50 years old.Gretchen
Gretchen -D--n shouldn't get a post banned, IMHO! Anyway, onto your stripper suggestion. I tried stripping a 15x20 table top that had simple edges and a cracked/slightly-bubbled finish. I applied Strypeeze, let it sit for 30 minutes, and when I scraped it off very little finish was removed. I let coat 2 sit for about 45 minutes, and when I scraped it off very little additional finish was removed. It was really tempting to scrape too hard to try and get some finish off. I think I tried some 0000 steel wool with unimpressive results. The inevitable goop drips damaged the table edges (I suppose I should have thought to use tape). I gave up and sanded the table and the edges, stained it, and it was gorgeous.But I sure feel like I am missing something when someone like you suggests stripping as a good option, especially on something like the pie table with the raised edging and the complex curves.Open my eyes! What am I missing?ThanksDoug
The Wood Loon
Acton, MA
No, I deleted it myself to start over.
Your prior experience with stripper may be due to the type of finish it was--I can't say, but it might have been a factory finish that is basically bulletproof.
As you see, Steve also suggested stripping and also what might have occurred rather than sanding. It is actually because of the raised edges and curves that stripper would have been preferable.
When you sand you remove all the patina the wood has built up from its age. You now have basically new wood.
When you get to the final finish I suggest something more durable than shellac. That central ring you are trying to remove was obviously a wet plant pot, and shellac won't protect from that--although you could certainly protect the table from it!! ;o)Gretchen
When you run into tough finishes like that the stripper needs to stay on much longer. Apply the stripper heavily, and then cover with Saran wrap so that it won't dry out. That will give you hours, or overnight even, for it to work. Plenty of ventilation for methylene chloride stripper.
I might be wrong but I get the impression the outer ring is bleached by the sun. This "finish" looks like a table my grandma had and the center always had a mat with a vase or the like on it. The center never saw the sun or air.
I would be looking at a way of blending the outside to the center. Maybe more of a paint.
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