I had an earlier post asking for advice on using shellac for the first time. I got lots of help for my first successful stab at it and have now graduated to a larger piece that uses figured veneer (quilted sapele). I’ve researched rubbing out a finish and as you can imagine, found that just about every woodworker has their own method. Here’s what I’ve done on a test piece:
1. Sand to 220
2. Sealer coat of 1lb shellac
3. Bartley’s Pore Filler, sand to 220 again.
4. 5 – 6 coats of 2 lb shellac, padded on, lightly sanded between coats (320 grit).
5. Sanded with 400 grit to level.
6. Applied wax with 4O Steel Wool, then wiped clean.
My goal is to show off the 3D look of the quilted sapele, which is what I ended up with, as long as I look at the piece in direct overhead light. When looking at it from an angle, all I see is a lot of scratches! Now I realize that that is what rubbing out does, but I’ve seen too many pieces like mine that look terrific from any angle.
I realize this is a tough thing to diagnose via forum posts, but will pose a few questions nonetheless:
1. Since I can make out individual scratches, does that mean I didn’t rub enough with the steel wool? Not enough scratches?
2. Should I have continued on with finer abrasives? In my research several woodworkers said that they are happy with the finish after waxing with 4O sw.
3. Both 1 and 2 above
4. Do figured pieces require a different process than more straight-grained ones?
5. Lastly, maybe I didn’t need to rub out the finish. Could I have just continued to add coats of shellac, leveling after each?
Whew, that’s a lot of questions, but I’m determined to become proficient at finishing with shellac.
Thanks in advance.
Replies
SheriDi,
Steel wool even in a fine grade is pretty coarse. Also, shifting the steel wool from side to side while on the surface will result in an uneven scratch pattern. The gloss will improve using mineral oil as a lubricant, as will backing it with something firm but flexible;I use an artist eraser. Working only in straight strokes, lifting the steel wool from the surface when starting a new "track" will result in a uniform scratch pattern. Also the Liberon brand steel wool is very fine and consistent, unlike hardware store steel wool, so you may want to get some of it.
On those occasions when I want a high gloss finish, I apply a couple of brushed on coats of shellac, carefully level sand it and bring up a gloss with padding lacquer. Padding lacquer will quickly give a deep gloss with very little effort. Unlike French polish, there is almost no learning curve.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Thanks Rob, I checked my steel wool and it is indeed hardware store grade, and I wasn't as careful making "tracks" as I should have been.
Thanks for your input!
I'll second the Liberon.
Denny
Sheri - here is what I did the first time I tried rubbing out:
1) Go to Rob Millard's website, follow the trail to his youtube videos.
2) Do what he does.
3) Then - wanting gloss - I waxed using white scotch pad.
Very happy with the results from my first at-bat. Lesson learned - I did not pay enough attention to Rob's instruction to "go with the grain without ANY sideways movement" - that applies to the pumice for sure, and is now written on my pumice container in red. NBD - I just had to redo that step.
Another resource I grab a lot is Jeff Jewett's Finishing by Taunton Press. In it, Jeff mentions that you can get to satin pretty easily - basically the same steps as Rob - but getting to gloss by hand with rottenstone is a lot of work. So - I tried it on a 18" x 24" surface. Looks great, and he was right.
Very informative videos! Thanks for pointing me in that direction.
One question: Where does pumice fall on a grit scale? I notice that Rob went from 600 straight to pumice on 4O steel wool which I thought was equivalent to about 400 grit.
SheriDi,
I'm glad you liked the video, but that rubout schedule will result in a nice soft satin sheen, not a deep gloss, which is what I think you what to show off the depth of your sapele.
Rob Millardhttp://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Sheri - the pumice + oil creates a slurry - the steel wool is the applicator. As far as grit equivalencies - I get lost in all that stuff, and I dont' worry about it. I just figure out what works to get me where I want to go.
Plus - Rob knows his stuff, as you have seen with his work. I'm sure his advice re: satin is wise - I have no experience with sapele. Also - you can go to satin first, stop, and ponder life for a bit. Jewitt's book says this (paraphrased): Rubbing to gloss by hand is a lot of work. To polish satin to gloss, continue wet-sanding through 1000g, then pumice and rottenstone.
1lb cans of pumice and rottenstone are like $6 each. The Liberon 4/0 is like $14/250g. (Highland prices) My point? - you aren't putting any real $$ at risk, so tee it up. If part of those end up on the back of some dusty shelf, won't be the last time that happens.
Last - I try not to rummage around on Rob's site too often - too depressing. I look at his beautiful work, then his "shop" and his "equipment" (table saw hanging on a hook on the wall ?? Whaaat??), and I look around at my shop and all the equipment I have, and think there is no hope for me. Its not the airplane, its the pilot.
Thanks Rob and Spotcheck. For the top I will continue to experiment. On the legs and rails (Honduras Mahogany) I will use your method Rob as that is truly a beautiful finish!
Sheri
Sheri:
Certainly I am not the expert Rob is, but I will add a thought or two.
Not sure there is a need to sand between padding coats of shellac. My applications have put down such a thin layer that there's not really anything to sand. Also, the next coat fully melts into the prior, so any lap marks are reduced somewhat by the next coat.
Even six applications by pad are going to leave an extremely thin layer of shellac, so I'm not sure there's enough shellac to level. It's going to be very important to have a very good surface before beginning to finish if padding shellac.
After five or six applications by pad of shellac, I've been taught to stop adding shellac to the pad and instead use pure alcohol when it needs recharging. By continuing to pad with higher concentrations of alcohol the shellac on the surface is being pushed about a bit to level the surface. Continue with this, perhaps adding a drop of mineral oil (see Jewitt books) as needed, the result will be high gloss with wonderful clarity and no need to rub to gloss. If one wants less shine, it's easy at that point to reduce the sheen.
But nothing here should contradict what the Dayton master writes and demonstrates.
Sheri --
Unless you're dealing with surface imperfections (raised nubs and the like) there's no reason to sand betwixt coats of shellac, as it is it's own solvent; a subsequent coat will dissolve the previous one slightly and adherence will be excellent.
With a polymerized finish one has to scuff-sand betwixt coats to create a surface the subsequent coat will adhere to.
Regards,
Thanks Leon. You've managed to use my favorite word (betwixt) and my least favorite word (sand) both in the same sentence, and include som good advice!
Sheri
You're very welcome, ma'am.
Leon
I'm a little late to the show but I'll offer my thoughts:
Yes - you did stop too soon at 400 grit and 000 steel wool.
My personal approach is
1. sand up to 320 or 400
2. switch to a 600 grit Abralon pad on a ROS
3. Move up to 1,000, 2,000 and 4,000 grit Abralon pads - all on a ROS.
If you can see scratches after 4,000 grit, you're a better man than I am. In addition, the ROS is a time and arm saver. I sand a) crossways, b) diagonally to the left and then c) diagonally to the right. A final buff, by hand with paste wax gives a good sheen with an in-the-wood look.
Frosty
“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.”
Milton Friedman
It's never too late for good info Frosty. I bought an Abralon pad recently but haven't had a chance to put it to use. I'll give it a try! Do you sand dry or use a lubricant?
Sheri
I sand dry. Generally, after 4-5 coats of finish I 'flatten' with 500 grit. Then thoroughly clean, apply another couple of coats, then run up through the rest of the grits.Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
Jim,
Try this http://www.americanfederalperiod.com/.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob:Thanks. I went back and took a closer look and found it on one of the other posts and was able to get to the video. I quickly deleted my post, but not quick enough. Thanks for the help anyway. I just didn't read enough. Jim
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