I’d like to hear some comments on riving knives for table saws. With the laws set to change that will require new saws to have them does it make sense to wait and see what designs come out for easy adjustment, etc? Is a riving knife that much safer than the splitter and pawls? It seems like most of the saws in the $1000 to $2000 range don’t presently have riving knives. I was interested in the SC table saws but it doesn’t look like their existing models have them.
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Replies
illini,
I too have been wanting a new saw with all the latest bells and whistles. I believe that a riving knife's main benefit is that it rides much closer behind the blade than the standard American style splitter. This means that there is a much lower chance of your stock binding behind the blade and kicking back. Also, the riving knife also rides up and down and and just below the blade, this means that it can stay on the saw when making making non-through cuts.
BTW: Some of the Grizzly, Powermatic, Jet, and SawStop saws have models with riving knives. Next is the sliding table!
I,
This is quite a good article about European TS advantages and features, by a well-respected American chap. It's in a rival magazine to FWW. :-)
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/articledisplay?id=14789
Lataxe
Illini:
A riving knife is supposed to be the best single protection against kick back. On my saw a crown guard with dust removal is easily attached/detached to the knife.
It is a simple matter to remove the knife with two bolts - a 30 second operation for those times the you need to cut a groove.
I think the story on riving knives has been written by far more experienced and knowledgeable people than I so I don't think you will regret it.
Hastings
Actually most riving knives are set so they are just below the top of the blade. That means they don't have to be removed for cutting grooves. And that's one of the main advantages--if you don't remove it, you don't negect to put it back.
Steve:You are correct unless the knife incorporates an overhead guard/dust collector. So you cannot have both riving and dust collection without removing both for grooves or substituting another knife designed to stop below the top of the blade.I believe that the Europeans require the guard/dust collector?Hastings
Aitch,
You are not quite correct about the European saws and their guards/riving knife configuration. It's true, as you say, that some riving knives that have the guard mount on them are higher than the blade, preventing overcuts. This allows the blade to be dropped very low in the table without the guard fouling a workpiece as it goes past the knfe and under the guard.
However, many European saws, including mine, have a riving knife, with an integral mount for the guard, that is still lower than the top of the blade. The guard-mounting point is usually a slot in the riving knife to take a pin that goes through the guard, which is then tightened in place with a quick-release Bristol lever.
The difficulty with this arrangement is that the blade needs to be kept high when the guard is in place, so the workpiece does not foul the bottom of the guard as it is pushed past the blade/knife. In practice, I don't find that keeping the blade high for cuts using the guard is a problem. But when I want to make overcuts, the guard comes off in 5 seconds and the riving knife remains. As it's below the top of the blade, overcuts can be made with the blade at any height.
I'll post a pic or two in due course to try and make this clearer.
Lataxe
Lataxe:My problem is that I only have one point of reference, i.e, my Felder combo. I did in fact check the Felder catalog and they show knives that present the "either or" I mentioned.
It's good to know that others have been able to combine the overhead guard with a knife that allows an undercut thereby only having to deal with the temporary removal of the guard.BTW, I did a weekend course at Kelly Mehler's school in Berea, Kentucky. He was the author of the article to which you linked in your earlier post. I actually worked with the very machine in the first photograph.I liked you beechwood thangys! I used European beech for a bathroom vanity. It is easy to work with and takes a painted finish really well.I have just finished making a complete double-hung window with casing in spanish cedar. I am fitting it as we speak.Regards,H
The SC with riving knife is supposed to be available within the next month or so, the original launch date having been delayed.
Jim
Jim, is that the Steel City hybrid of which you speak? What's the latest?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I don't really have a latest -- I've stopped hounding the rep since he told me the Canadian launch would trail the U.S. one by a few weeks. Last I heard the granite model was due around now with the cast to follow a couple of weeks later. The U.S. but not the Canadian inventory was supposed to be in place. What the delay is now I can't imagine, except perhaps that their current sales flyer runs until the end of March and they may let that run out before they launch the new. Annoying, but I can use the time to run a 220v line.
Jim
Jim, I plunked down for a used Unisaw this afternoon. Just seemed like the right saw at the right time. I figure I won't lose money on it, and when I want to I can either get a new saw with the riving knife and whatever else, or if I hit the jackpot somewhere, get a SawStop.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
That'll larn 'em. Lost a sale and an advocate. Tardiness is a sin.
I envy you the big one. Unfortunately I just don't have the space for one, unless I stop swinging the cat.
Jim
"That'll larn 'em. Lost a sale and an advocate." Oooops, didn't mean to leave that impression. Nope, I wasn't deserting Steel City due to "tardiness." I knew after dragging my feet on the $1100 cabinet saw that I wasn't up to spending that much money on a saw, especially having just bought a new computer. Would have dropped the savings account tooooo low.
There have been other Unisaws but they've been much older, usually rusty or missing parts or in questionable operating condition. This saw has been in a working shop, very close by geographically and a good price, so the stars aligned and there I was!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jim,Realize that the Canadian dollar is only getting stronger and hopefully the saw will be cheaper? Anyway, it sounds as if you've done some research on the SC saw, my question is that the website says that its a hybrid or intermediate saw and not a cabinet saw. It supposedly comes in a 3HP option, is that still really a hybrid saw or is it a true 3 belt cabinet saw.
The only new model that I've seen is the granite top prototype. The specs I've seen for their existing models describe them all as cabinet rather than hybrid. However the entry-level models, both 1.75 and 3HP, have only one belt. The "DeLuxe" models have three.
As to the Canadian price coming down. Yeah, right.
Jim
Jim,I've found the perfect saw for you! How about the General (International?) 50-560 - 10” SCORING SAW WITH BUILT-IN SLIDING TABLE. This saw looks awesome! I assume that like most of the newer things, its easier to retool overseas than to retool locally. ---------Warning-----Ranting-------Below------Although I'm beginning to wonder if its even the company retooling overseas or is it that some overseas manufacturer already has the tooling to produce this kind of saw and is offering it to General as an option to sell and paints it green for General to, in Paula Abdul speak, "make it your own"Realize that many European manufacturers can claim "Made in <insert_EU__country_here>" as long as something like painting and final assembly occur there. How much of a Felder saw is actually made in Austria these days.
Yeah, I wish. Has built-in DC at the blade too, though it doesn't look like the made in Canada fence that's their best. But it's too big for my poky little shop, and 5K on sale is too big for my poky little wallet.
Jim
Jim,With the strength of the Canadian $$ you could pick up one of these new Grizzly saws with riving knives. There's another post of someone in Canada that just bought an 8-inch jointer and 15-inch planer from Grizzly and had it shipped to the boarder.http://grizzly.com/products/10-Sliding-Tablesaw/G0623Xhttp://grizzly.com/products/10-Heavy-Duty-Cabinet-Table-Saw-With-Riving-Knife/G0651
I thought of Grizzly, but I'm 2+ hours from Detroit or Buffalo, and if anything goes wrong with the machine you're up crap creek. There's no service in Canada, and I hear that Grizzlies occasionally have one or two imperfections -- not to revive an acrmonious thread. I'll wait and see what the SC's like, and check out General again.
Jim
I believe felder still manufactures almost all of the machine in Austria and that is what drives the price. I think General needs to keep working on the slider. I would be interested to see how they pick up the dust off the saw blade. If it is like their typical system (drop into a box with a pipe connected to it), it will be nowhere near as good as the euro tools. The cross cut fence extension without the support brace seems to be asking for problems with the slider down the road. If you place (or maybe drop) a sheet of plywood on it the stress on the slider is quite large. I will give Grizzly, general and the other copiers about five years and maybe then they will work out the kinks. Until then, I would stick with the tried and true european versions. I have a couple of felder pieces and they are worth the $$$.
Just my two bits.
Brad
Brad,I heard that some of the castings on the lower end Felder and Hammers are made in Hungary, but that's unsubstantiated. But anyway, anything that is coming from outside of the states are getting really expensive these days because of the weak dollar.As for the slider, if I decide to get one ($$$$), I'm good without supports because I'll not be moving sheets of plywood onto the saw. I'll cut them down with my FT plunge saw and rail. For me, I only get to spend about 5-7 hours a week in the shop, and I'm probably only getting about 2-3 hours worth of work done compared to more experienced woodworkers or pros. I want the cool tools cause it makes my limited time in the shop more enjoyable and they are of course really cool.
I had not heard about some of the machining being done elsewhere, interesting. That doesnt bother me too much so long as they enforce their quality control standards.
They are cool tools for sure. I have had my slider since january only. It is so nice to be able to clamp pieces down and push thru. As close to perfect as you can get. Plus it is safer because your hands are away from the blade. I was more interested in the slider when I bought mine, but the riving knife turned out to be a huge bonus. I have had no binding with this machine, but that could also be partly attributed to the fact it is 4hp and not 2hp. One nice thing about Felder or SCMI is they will stand behind their machines. I suppose you plan to knock down large pieces to save yourself from lugging around heavy pieces. If not, you might want to try one out because once you do your plans might change. One mistake I made before buying was not trying one out. Lots have them and are only too happy to show off their pride and joy to an interested woodworker.
Good luck with the decision.
Brad
Brad,I really have nothing against machines coming from overseas (Europe or China or Taiwan or Canada). My issue with Felder was when I was talking to the sales rep and mentioned that I was also looking at the MIniMax, he started slamming SCMI/MiniMax and saying how much superior Austrian made saws were. As for the large panel saws...I don't have space for something like that. I will knock them down and then recut on my table saw. Anyway, my kitchen cabinet maker and I became friends while he was building my kitchen. He let me use some of his amazing machines including a big panel saw. That said, I still got binding of the wood behind the riving knife and had a tough time pushing the piece through. Although, I did feel fairly safe and dust free. I've included a picture of the Martin saw I got to use. For me, it was a real treat!
Its unfortunate when reps do that. The fellow I deal with is good that way, simply points out the differences. From what I have heard, it sounds like both make good machines.
Those Martin machines are so nice. I have not seen one up close yet. I am going to visit a shop with those in a couple of weeks. But how would one decide, do I want a house or a saw?? :)
Brad
Brad,Which slider did you end up getting?
I went with a Hammer Saw Shaper Combo B3 with their comfort package. That is the one with the 80" slider. I didnt look that much into SCMI mostly because their rep from their re-seller really didnt seem that interested in selling to hobby types. Overall I am very pleased. I do wish I would have sprung for the 500 or 700 series mostly so I would have the F-rail. The F-rail along the side of the slider makes is very nice to attach aigner or felder devices.
Brad
Whoa Brad! That is a nice machine! When you mention the F-rail, is that the X-roll bearing system? Is the X-roll system on the Felder really noticeably smoother than that of the Hammer? If I hadn't spent all that money to have a new a new workshop built (and the house remodeled) maybe I could stomach forking out that kind of money too. As it stands, I'll use my Delta contractor saw and FT Plunge saw until I can save up the money to buy a new saw.
The Hammer is very smooth and works incredibly well. A light push at one end and it will roll all the way to the other. The main claim of the X-roll is its strength. My rep bragged about fully extending a 10' X-roll and placing a 300lb weight at the end. No flex, and does not bend. You can see this if you download the video on the Felder site. The F-Rail is a little rail along the left side of the slider. This rail can be used in conjunction with the groove in the face of the slider to mount Aigner, Felder or PanHans devices. Aigner (now sold by Martin) and PanHans sell many safety devices for holding stock and other jigs. The ones felder sell appear to be re-branded Aigner parts. The europeans have more stringent safety requirements that has led to these gadgets. Some are very useful. The amount of little aluminum parts the eurpoeans sell for these machines is quite amazing. It adds up quickly.
Brad
I forgot to mention one of the best kept secrets of the euro TS. The dado. They are expensive. They used shaper groovers, and these make perfectly square dados. They have removable side cutters for end grain that works far better than the typical saw blades.
Brad
Jointerman,When the wood binds on the riving knife, it's either due to poor setup/bent riving knife or the wood is case hardened and closing up behind the cut. If the riving knife wasn't there, the wood may have bound directly onto the blade.Wood closing onto the blade/riving knife happens about every 6 months or so in a production shop when ripping solid timber. It's scary enough, but it would be worse if the wood closed up and caught the blade directly.Cheers,eddie
My friends tools are in top form, he's quite a stickler about that. I assumed that there was a lot of tension being released in the stock I was squaring up. It was about a 3 meter long rough 5/4 piece of cherry that we I had been working with. It was the only piece that did that. I admit that I sure am glad that it had a riving knife and a really nice blade guard on it.
I heard that some of the castings on the lower end Felder and Hammers are made in Hungary, but that's unsubstantiated
The Felder factory has one of the most modern CNC automated welding lines in the industry and they own their own foundry on the same site so any buy-ins would be to cover lack of production capacity. The same is true of Robland/Knapp in Belgium, SCM Group in Italy, etc. The Hungarians are hardly noted for their engineering prowess or their steel industry, whereas the Czech Republic (next door to Austria) is, so that would bne the logical neighbour to deal with. In any case both these countries are now part of the European Community so accusing Felder of buying Hungarian castings is a bit like rounding on Powermatic for buying castings from Idaho, whereas in reality we all know they outsource from China
Scrit
The issue was that the Felder sales rep was slamming MiniMax for being made in Italy as opposed to Austria. That is what really set me sour...on wanting the Hammer (though I still want one!). I really don't have too many issues with where products are made as long as the quality is high, I admit that sometimes politics and human rights issues do come into play too. That said, the Baldwin door knobs that I recently installed in our house were from China and I have never seen this level of quality from any door knob manufacturer before. I believe it is in what the the parent company's expectation of quality that makes the difference. Like Baldwin, I think that Altendorf lower end Chinese made machines made in Qinhuangdao will be as good in quality as anything else that Altendorf has ever put their name on.
As far as I can see from the promotion flyer, there's a Y-fitting at the regular dust chute with a clear hose leading to the blade cover. The hose is supported by a thin arm at the rt. side of the table extension. General owns Excalibur, but this system is lightweight in comparison.
Jim
The old general I had dropped all the shavings into the box below and the DC was attached below to a spout. Little or no thought went into the design and it was always full of bits in corners. My euro slider doesnt have any storage below as it is piped directly to the exterior connection point. It also has a shroud around the blade below the table that optimizes the DC's ability to draw out the dust. It works far better than my old saw. Just like Festool does, they engineer the product to do the task it needs and get rid of the debris.
Just my thoughts.
Brad
In the early 1980's I bought a 12" tilting arbor INCA table saw. I had has a riving knife. It's just like a garage door opener or rfemote control for a TV, once you have it....you wonder how you possibly survived without it.
The safety issue and quality of cut is perfect.
Yes. If I were you I'd be buying one that has one, or dragging my feet until they all have them. Doesn't the SawStop come with a riving knife already?
Hi, Just got the PM2000 with the riving knife and pawls. Can't really comment too much though cause I'm still in the assembly stage but you might be interested to know Powermatic offers the regular above the blade in height knife and a low profile knife which makes it easier for some operations without having to remove anything.
Powermatic 1791787 Low Profile Riving Knife for Powermatic 2000 Table Saw.
Brian
PS...Awesome machine!!!
I was in the Griz store in Muncy last week and they said the riving knife contractor saw would be available soon. I was hoping to see one on the showroom floor but they didn't have one yet.
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