Replies

1. 
   roc | Apr 28, 2012 09:29pm | #1

   You are doing good over all

    >re-sharpenings . . . about 5 minutes in the middle of chopping dovetails for example), should I just use the 8000 grit stone if the edge is dull but not nicked, creat a new microbevel, then flip it over on the same stone to get off the wire edge?<

   Yes by all means if that works for you.  You could use a less fine stone such as the 5000 if you have it.  What I am saying is :

   If the edge isn't too worn and the 8000 brings the edge back to sharp enough to continue paring then that is all you need to do.

   The only way to tell is to try it.  If that doesn't get the edge sharp enough then that means that particular time the edge has gotten too worn for the 8000 and you will have to go with a coarser grit stone to cut back enough to get the worn/rounded microscopic edge sharp again.  Mostly experience will tell you when to go with 8K and when to go coarser.

   You are not necessarily needing to get a glassy finish on the dovetail glue faces so really there is no big reason to use the 8k other than ( if you are like me ) you like to look at the mirror polish on the blade and you like the way a blade prepared to that extreme feels when it cuts.

   Personally I nearly always use a coarse stone, 320, 700, or 1000, to sharpen even a touch up because it is much faster to get that worn edge off and bring the faces back to the angle I want than flailing away longer with the finest stone.  Realistically about the only way to get the edge sharp with the finest stone is to steepen the micro bevel and I don't like to do that.

   For the chisel, NOT FOR PLANE BLADES, you could go with a coarse stone such as 1000 then strop the blade on the bevel side and get back to work.  That is the way carvers tend to work.

   I don't strop and I don't carve.

   For the scraper you can use the burnisher and rub the side of the scraper and then reform the hook gently by taking the burnisher along the narrow edge of the scraper.

   You can do this over and over several times before needing to file off the hook and stone the faces.

   Generally for sharpening all the various blades you have the best way to find what works best for you is to spend a great deal of time trying all the combinations and observing the results.

   Scrapers can drive a person nuts in the learning stages.

   >Sharpening beyond 8000<

   Recommend ?  No.

   However , I often go to 15,000.

   Why ? Because I bought the stone and I like shinny cutting edges.  And it is fun shaving curls off of single hairs when I test the edge.

   But there is no real WOODWORKING reason to use a stone beyond 8K.

   >Shapton Glasstones?<

   I have no glass stones ( mine are all the same grit all the way through ) but the thought of what you are doing makes me cringe. Wasting too much stone material. 

   Flatten those stones absolutely as little as possible.  Certainly not every time you sharpen.

   The Shaptons are much more resistant to wear and getting out of flat than the Nortons and I never used to flatten my Nortons every session.

   The more you practice sharpening the less time you will spend on each stone especially if you start ON A COARSE ENOUGH STONE.  Then it is just a few passes on each finer grit so there isn't much wear on the finer stones.  Do use a Japanese stone cleaning stone to keep the surfaces of your Shaptons fresh rather than using the sand paper to clean the stones.

   This one seems crazy expensive.  Seems like I spent like $8 to $11 for mine but they last for ever and ever so what ever.

   http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=15%2E576%2E48&dept_id=13260

   
2. 
   JerryW | Jun 01, 2012 10:14pm | #2

   Do you differentiate between plane irons and chisels?

   ROC - I realize that I am venturing into a nearly religious topic, however, do you differentiate in your approach to sharpening plane irons and mortising or dovetail chisels?  I realize that some like to sharpen by hand and find it to be very rewarding, however, when one is talking primary and secondary angles and back flattening on a mortising chisel, is that not overkill?  The reason I ask is that a few years back, I took a furniture course from Benjamin Hobbs in NC.  He is a well known period furniture builder and was recently awarded the 2011 Cartouche Award from the Society of American Period Furniture Makers.  During the week we built a mahogany ladies dressing table with Queen Anne style legs - mostly with hand tools.  His outlook on chisel sharpening was "I make money with sharp chisels, I don't make money sharpening chisels."   As a result his standard approach is to establish the primary angle on a 220 grit belt sander with the belt moving parallel to the cutting edge, followed by honing on an 8" leather wheel loaded with a rouge stick.  It took him approximately 20 seconds to sharpen a chisel to "scary sharp". I know, at the end of the week I had band-aids on nearly all of my fingers!! We used his tools and he sharpened them all so that we didn't make a mess of his chisels!!   Try it - it may help when you don't have time to do it the "right way".

   Jerry Wright

3. 
   roc | Jun 02, 2012 03:36am | #3

   I know you don't really want an answer.  You expect me to go power grind the hell out of my delicately tempered chisels and say :

   "Oh what a fool I have been all this time"

   and give up the subtlties of fine edges for speed . . . bull in china shop fastion . . . but for those reading this who may be able to appreciate the finer things in life I will, once again, will myself into the breach.

   I will say first that ; it depends what wood one is chiseling or planing.  A couple of degrees and a very flat back makes a difference with some of the HARD hard woods.

   But

   One can cut mahogany with about any old hunk of junk edge.

   One of the reasons the old dudes were all about the mahogany.

   You see.

   Religious ?  We are not supposed to discuss that here. I would say that sharpening, you will find especially if you sharpen tools to cut metal with, is more . . . 

   scientific and mathematical.

   Consistent repeatability.  Run the formula and it comes out the same every time.

   Why should wood workers limit them selves and their tools to "do it by eye and hold your tung just right and hope "?

   What ever works.   The method you describe will produce a ridgy cutting edge like a Lays potato chip, with a polished sharp edge.  I suppose that is OK if you like that surface on your finished product.  Or use sand paper to round the surface and edges of the wood over etc.

   I realize you said edge "parallel" to the belt but that is just asking for a catch on the belt see comments bellow.  So one turns the blade a little and then the ridges.  Parallel means a weak edge from the scratches.  Stress risers on a microscopic scale.  Edge is like an accordion bellows.

   Especially what ever works for YOU see.

   In the beginning one needs to be able to experience a sharp edge to repeat it.  To know when one has arrived at the goal.

   I think the easiest way for the beginner is, in the beginning, to use the guides and measurements and going slow to start.

   James Krenov sharpened; with a hand crank grinder and then on one stone and back to work.  That would be a good compromise and since he used a stone rather than a strop would get rid of the ridges produced by the grinder.

   Sure . . . sure

   Not having to make money at my woodworking I tend to "over do it" in the opposite direction I enjoy my edges too much to compromise them.  To over heat them on the power grinder, belt sander, what ever, THEN if that didn't totally take the hardness out of the edge lets over heat it some more on the power buffer.  And breathing all that stuff in to boot.

   Cringe.

   He must have a lot of money to spend on chisels power grinding them away like that and I don't wonder if he has to head back to the powered, hardness destroyers more often than necessary because of the abuse to his edges.  He has to keep up with producing edges for all those students after all. Could he be miss leading the faithful because it sounds so good on paper ? Do it the easy way.  There is a short cut and I will tell you about it. Probably has stock in the chisel brand he is promoting to.  Ha Ha.  Nah that never happens in religious environments.  Oops.  Keep coming back to that "stuff" don't we ?

   Hmmm

   I don't wonder that when no body is looking, and it is just him in his shop, attempting to do his best work, that he doesn't take a little more care with some GOOD tools.

   Hmmmm

   In any case and damb the torpedos or the flames in the chat room . . .

   I subscribe to :

   There is more to life than increasing its speed.

   and

   There are some professionals that do great things in spite of their working habits.

   I was just watching Willie Nelson on TV tonight.  I have a great deal of respect for him, his song writing and performing . . .

   however not in a million years would I allow my guitar to remain in the shape his is in.  I suppose it is all about the signatures on the face of it.  Sounds good to.  The surface looks like shit what with the extra sound hole/foot stomped hole.

   And Phillip Lowe is still using that rails in the way vice and filling his drawers with saw dust on that crazy old work bench he made fresh out of school when he couldn't afford better (time wise or wood wise) and yet . . .

   he is the go to guy to work on repairs to million dollar plus heritage pieces.

   Hmmm

   PS: I am very wary to discuss using belt sanders to sharpen blades in a chat room.  There is a perfectly safe way to go about it AND MORE THAN ONE WAY TO GO ABOUT IT THAT WILL CHUCK A CHISEL THROUGH THE OPERATOR'S THIGH OR A BY STANDER IN HALF A HEART BEAT.

   ANY ONE CONSIDERING ATTEMPTING THIS OVER KILL TO SHARPEN A POOR LITTLE BLADE EDGE NEEDS TO READ THIS LINK TO LEARN HOW TO DO IT CORRECTLY AND SAFELY.

   (other wise buy yourself some GOOD chain mail) A LEATHER APRON WILL NOT STOP THIS ACCIDENT LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO HAPPEN !

   Again . . . the correct way to use a belt sander to sharpen blade edges can be found at :

   http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeltSanderGrinderMkI.html

4. 
   JerryW | Jun 03, 2012 08:50pm | #4

   Whoa!!

   ROC -Of course I expected an answer - just not a lenghty hyperbolic diatribe, which by the way, did not answer the question that I ask.   I thought that I was asking a straight forward question. I think that I also stated that I understand that there are those who love to hand sharpen.  It can be very pleasing and rewarding, and can obviously produce some very capable edges.

   The question that I asked, was related to the type of care you would put into a chisel for chopping mortises vs a plane iron for flattening a table top.  I still would like to understand how you would approach each of those.

   As to Ben Hobbs approach to sharpening, I stated that he uses a belt grinder with a 220 grit sanding belt. It is not a 36, 80, or 100 grit grinding belt.  It will not throw a chisel acrossed the room. Obviously technique is involved to insure success, just like in hand sharpening.

   As to questioniing the methods of demonstrated trade professionals, I assume that in your trade or profession, you have "tricks of the trade" which others might criticize also. I attempt to learn from other skilled craftsman, not dismiss their methods out of hand  as "not meeting my standards."

   As to destroying your finely tempered edges on a 220 grit sanding belt - pretty difficult to reach 300-500F in a few seconds.  This would be the typical tempering temperature for a high carbon steel chisel made from W1, or O1, or even from 5160 steel.  If you have A2 tooling, then much higher is allowable.  I developed and produced tool steels at Crucible for 30 years and have some understanding of tooling at what it can take.

   As to ridges on cutting edges from the 220g belt - I have looked at the edges of many wood turning tools with various edge preparation methods, to understand the interaction of pregrinding surface preparation on burr formation on a grinding wheel as well as diamond honing  I have also looked at the cut  wood surfaces from these different edges at high magnification with a high resolution digital imaging microscope. .  Obviously, the cutting action of a mortising chisel or plane iron is not the same.  The results of several studies have been published in American Woodturner (Winter, 2009, Spring 2010) and one is being published in the next issue of the UK publication Woodturning.  I also have examined in the same manner, wood carving tool edges  made fro O1 steel.  They are harder to observe because they are very highly polished.

   I would love to do a similar study using a chisel prepared your way, and the same chisel prepared the Hobbs way - comparing the actual tool edges as well as the cut surface of whatever gnarly wood we could find to cut.  Would you like to collaborate onsuch a study and article?  I am quite certain that we could find a magazine that would publish it.

   Jerry Wright

1. 
   Westchester | Jun 06, 2012 06:12pm | #5

   Sharpening

   SA

   
1. 
   RalphBarker | Jun 07, 2012 10:44am | #6

   re: "scared"

   Chuckle.

2. 
   RalphBarker | Jun 07, 2012 10:58am | #7

   science vs. religion

   Jerry, I'd love to see a scientific comparison of both sharpening methods and sharpening tools. But, wouldn't such a study also need to quantify the various types of woodworkers doing the sharpening? Then, the analysis of woodworker types, sharpening methods, and sharpening tools could be combined into one of those 3-D matrices that would allow each woodworker type to choose the methods and tools best suited to his/her personality. The wrinkle, of course, is that we would still need to be honest with ourselves about which "type" we really are.  ;-)

3. 
   roc | Jun 15, 2012 12:44am | #10

   As a friend said when he ran across me during a solo expedition

   That sounds ambitious.

   I didn't finish the expedition by the way.

   Sorry I have not replied. I have been :

   Lazy

   Digesting the blade loaning idea

   Didn't realize you had replied for a day or two.

   I never get notices that there are replies.  I know I can go in and re-click all the stuff I clicked before but that just pisses me of.  It should be enough that I check the box in the thread in question but that doesn't get the reminders to me so what ever.

   I answered your question in my first novella but was not clear enough.  Sorry.

   >The question that I asked, was related to the type of care you would put into a chisel for chopping mortises vs a plane iron for flattening a table top.  I still would like to understand how you would approach each of those.<

   I would do it just as I sharpen the plane blades.

   In my view I answered it by saying I would never use the power strop and grinders because it would IN MY VIEW remove SOME  of the hardness of my blades.

   That leaves the stones (and in my case) the dreaded sharpening jig.

   I would SAY that I would stop at 4000 grit but going to 8000 grit would just be a few seconds more so I would probably do that to.

   The back still needs to be flat and the bevel a particular angle within a few degrees.  I learned that on my purple hart bench.  I started out with too shallow of an angle and the edges were "chipping".  Actually they were getting hammered by the hard wood.  I kept increasing the angle until the edge lasted a good long time and did not "chip".

   Buffing/stropping that CORECT angle would just dub it into a steeper angle which would further increase the force needed to propel the chisel through the wood.  That I don't need.  Cutting mortises is difficult enough without adding to it by steepening the cutting angles past the minimum dictated by the wood.

   >As to Ben Hobbs approach to sharpening, I stated that he uses a belt grinder with a 220 grit sanding belt. It is not a 36, 80, or 100 grit grinding belt.  It will not throw a chisel acrossed the room. Obviously technique is involved to insure success, just like in hand sharpening.<

   Oh it isn't the grit that is going to grab the blade and chuck it.  That is irrelevant.  The belt is made of cloth.  The blade can quite easily cut this cloth ESPECIALLY IN THE FINER GRIT BELTS.  So the corner of the blade can cut into the belt cloth and catch; then the blade turns into a projectile propelled by the belt.

   And yes there is a right way to use the belt so this does not happen.

   >As to questioniing the methods of demonstrated trade professionals, I assume that in your trade or profession, you have "tricks of the trade" which others might criticize also.<

   No not a one.

   :   )

   Well yes but they nearly always come back to bite me in the ass.

   Hard to fight physics and facts but that doesn't  keep humans from thinking they can.

   :   )

   >pretty difficult to reach 300-500F in a few seconds<

   Oh reeeeeeely !

   You must be living in a different world than I am.  I can't tell you how many times I have turned a drill bit blue while attempting to sharpen it on a gray wheel grinder. The edge is quite thin.

   Surface feet per second and all that.  Maybe the belt sander you have in mind runs slower than mine.  It would be nice to have a speed control.

   Doesn't matter on HSS I suppose but I still hate to do it.

   Some of my blades are made from old files and I and others here have Japanese "white steel" blades that won't like being turned blue.

   >I would love to do a similar study using a chisel prepared your way, and the same chisel prepared the Hobbs way - comparing the actual tool edges as well as the cut surface of whatever gnarly wood we could find to cut.  Would you like to collaborate onsuch a study and article?  I am quite certain that we could find a magazine that would publish it.<

   In my mind it has been done.  Not so much for finish on the wood but the tear out in the problematic woods tell the tail. Here is a few comments and a link that I posted in the past.

   I am not willing to ship my prize blades hither and yawn (I suppose the spelling is wrong but funny so I left it ).  Feel free to sharpen up some blades using impeccable techniques and use those in the new article:

   Flat stones

   Skip no large gaps between grits

   Start with truly flat backs to at least 6000 grit

   Use a sharpening jig and appropriate sharpening angle for the wood and application.

   etc (means what ever I forgot but is in the article in the link that I will remember at three in the morning and will attempt to resist posting then).

   In ten plus years of searching out what is happening when sharpening and the best methods this is the crème de la crème

   https://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAnd...

   repeatable results, confirmed by microscope and the best methods confirmed by microscope and CUTTING WOOD ! ! ! !

   Three different difficulty levels of wood planing.  She isn't playing around.

   As far as the natural stone verses the manmade extra extra fine stones 8000 and 15000 I suspected the natural stone had larger particles in it that could cause problems, how could it not, and that the synthetic has surpassed the best of the natural stones.

   Sorry to be such a party pooper.  One needs to measure the force applied to the chisel, the depth of cut, the actual dubbed cutting angle of the power stropped blades.

   Makes me tired thinking of all the parameters for a truly scientific approach to this article.

   Maybe I am over thinking it.  I know what the wood looks like with corner cutting techniques.  I know the extra effort involved in using the tools produced by the corner cutting techniques.

   Other wise I wouldn't bother.  I started out with a shit technique after all and that didn't work.  That is why I started looking into sharpening the right way.  I got results.

   Let us know when the article comes out.

5. 
   JerryW | Jun 10, 2012 09:09am | #8

   Ralph - Of course, all of us approach woodworking from different backgrounds and with different intents, and each are rewarded by different returns.  Relative to sharpening, "there are many ways to skin a cat".  One of the reasons there are so many approaches and sometimes myths to tool and knife sharpening is that we cannot see the edge.  Where there is a lack of factual information, our imaginations fill in the rest.  We woodworkers are interesting folks - some have perfectly laid out shops with no projects underway (the shop is the project) and some have a mess of a shop with projects underway everywhere (projects done in any kind of shop). All combinations in between also exist.

   As to tools, perfect edges can be had many different ways and it is OK  for us to each have our own favorite way to achieve them - ways that bring joy to our time in the shop.  The environment that the woodworker is operating in needs to be understood and respected.

   If we could decide on basic types of woodworkers, types of woodworking, and various edge preparation methods used in each woodworker/project environment - and then compare the actual edges and wood surfaces... now that would be interesting!!

   Jerry Wright

1. 
   RalphBarker | Jun 10, 2012 09:51am | #9

   Funding?

   I agree, Jerry. Any thoughts on where and how to obtain funding for such a project? (We couldn't expect folks to send in their own tools for examination/testing.) 

   Chisels - which brand, which steel? A half-dozen or a dozen of each type?

   Plane irons - same questions.

   Testing methods - we'd need to arrive at some sort of consensus between the volunteer sharpeners.

1. 
   PhillipB | Jul 05, 2012 06:43pm | #14

   The Complete Guide To Sharpening by Leonard Lee

   @RalpBarker

   Hey, good buddy!  How's the funding going?

   If you don't get all the funding for your research you guys are hoping for, then you may want to take a look at Leonard Lee's book on Sharpening found here.

   I have used this book for years and it has answered each and every questions I have ever had about sharpening.  But more than that, it has kept me from wasting time wondering which is the best way to sharpen whatever tool is up for sharpening.

   Take a look at the book, you will assuredly be suprised at the breadth of its contents.

   I have found it to be invaluable.

6. 
   JerryW | Jun 26, 2012 10:31pm | #11

   I too am slow to respond - was baking brain in Joshua Tree, CA!!

   I just returned from some vacation time in the CA high desert in Joshua Tree.  108F, 8% humidity - we like central NY better!!

   Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I have read Ms. Fraser's article several times - it is a very rigorous study of the effects of using different abrasives to hone plane irons and the resulting edges and surfaces produced during planing.  It is very professionally done and does tell one all they need to know about hand sharpening and honing plane irons on stones, diamond, and various papers.  The photographic results and cutting performance line up nicely with fineness of honing media.

   Our original question was addressing mortising chisels and perhaps more expeditious ways to achieve a sharp edge.  The Fraser article doesn't help with that.  However, it seems that you have little interest in that area of investigation.  Kind of reminds me of the Blazing Saddles paraphrase of The Treasure of Sierra Madre quote: "Badges, we we don't need no stinking badges!".

   One final grinding comment, to clarifiy an apparent misunderstanding - obviously anyone can burn a plane iron, drill bit, chisel or other cutting tool on a gray grinding wheel - or any other wheel for that matter.  It happens all the time - especially on  medium and high carbon,  plain carbon steels.  Turning an edge blue on a 220 grit emery cloth belt - not so much.  I am surprised to see your reference to blades made from files - I trust those were't the finely tempered blades you referenced earlier.

   As to the complexity of running a trial in the world of hand sharpening - it reminds me of the early days of process control in manufacturing - everyone's job was way too complicated to standardize.  I routinely would hear:  " You have no idea of all of the things I must control - that is why they are all in my little black book!"

   ROC - I truly have enjoyed your passion, intellect and humor on this topic.  Pardon me now, while I tip toe back out of the church.

   Happy woodworking!

   Jerry Wright

1. 
   roc | Jun 27, 2012 05:07am | #12

   the church

   Hey thanks for visiting !

   Do come back.

   Be SURE to send your GENEROUS donations to the PO Box listed bellow.  Only through YOUR support can the heathen be brought to the TRUE WAY.

   Glad that I and I alone have been blessed with the POWER to interpret the divine scrolls so that I may disseminate the TRUE word to the multitudes.

   I hope you are laughing because that was total BS.

   Keep us up to speed on the modern world.

   PS: I went in and clicked all the magic check boxes.  Now I get like forty notices that tell me I have corrected my spelling forty times on one post.  And the notice about your post.  It is just chance that I didn't trash it with all of the reminders about mine. Isn't modern technology marvelous ?

7. 
   RoninKokomo | Jun 28, 2012 08:21pm | #13

   Sharpening.

   This is how Tage Frid sharpened. I knowof several pros who get big buck for their work who sharpen this way. They make so much per hour that they can better afford to buy chisels more often than I di rather than spend a lot of time honing. I have tried this at at course at Marc Adams school. It works great. It makes me cringe. I do not do it in my shop purely as a matter of personal preference. With this method you can get a chisel like a razor in twenty seconds.

8. 
   leo_in_st_louis | Jul 20, 2012 10:50am | #15

   Love the discussion and the links

   Well done discussion of many of our options. Personally I'm from the waterstone and guide world of sharpening, then use the Toremex paste on a hard buff wheel for final polish. I enjoy sharpening, so a razors edge is satisfying. I'm not all that productive at building but love learning the skills. 

   The last comment mentioned Tage Frid's method of sharpening and then didn't describe it. I learned how to do dovetails from his fine woodworking article in the 80's and later built a workbench to his specs. So how does Tage Frid go about it?

1. 
   roc | Jul 20, 2012 11:56pm | #16

   Enter at your own risk

   Hi Leo,

   I think he and you are referring to : 

    . . . .  his standard approach is to establish the primary angle on a 220 grit belt sander with the belt moving parallel to the cutting edge, followed by honing on an 8" leather wheel loaded with a rouge stick.

   I was going to say something sarcastic such as "I hear that is the way they sharpen and polish samuari swords" but decided not to.

   :   )

   It's what ever you like and gets the job done I suppose.  Its not for me.  Ruffles have ridges but mostly . . .

   Ruffles have . . .

   ridges.

   PS: I just looked up his sharpening method in his book

   http://www.amazon.com/Tage-Teaches-Woodworking-Step---Step/dp/1561580686/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342841705&sr=1-1&keywords=tag+frid+teaches+woodworking

   page 35

   Yep that is about the way he does it.  Smaller cloth polishing wheel instead of leather.

   I can not empathize strongly enough that the way he is using the belt sander in the photo is VERY DANGEROUS.  That is a cloth belt and the chisel is angled into and against the rotation of the belt.  The chisel can easily cut into the belt and then the chisel will end up as a projectile.  Perhaps the sparks were added in by the photographer and they are going the wrong way.  If not . . .

   That is  INSANE.

   PPS: I just reread the info and . . . Ha, Ha, Ha (see discussion above about over heating the steel on a belt sander ) he says you need to be careful because it is easy to over heat the steel on the sander.