Hello,
The MiniWax Polyurethane finish on my kitchen table is wearing off in spots. What’s the best way to deal with this problem. Do I have to strip the entire table top down to the barewood or can I lightly sand the top of the table and then apply a few coats of poly?
Wanda
Replies
Wanda,
I believe that sanding will prove disappointing. I have never been able to eliminate the poly layer marks.
I would strip the poly (Minwax is not that tough to remove). Use liquid stripper-Kutzit and 0000 steel wool for example. Clean that off with lacquer thinner, clean that with denatured alcohol. Ventilation, ventilation, ventilation!! Heavy chemical gloves.
While you are refinishing the top, you might as well strip the legs and aprons.
Check the leg-apron joinery to see if it needs tightening up (reglue mortises and tenons, additional cross supports, etc.)
Apply stain and topcoat, you now have a "new" table for just a little more effort.
Pete
How many coats of finish were applied initially, and how long ago was that? This was brushed on oil-based finish, right?
I think it depends on what you mean by "wearing off". If you are talking about a very tapered sort of wear due to simple abrasion you might be able to over coat. If there is any hint of the original finish not adhering well, or if there might be chemical damage that softened the finish, then you have to strip.
But top coating requires a lot more than just scuff sanding. You should thoroughly clean the surface with a TSP solution to remove water based dirt, and then you should thoroughly wipe clean with naphtha to remove oil soluble dirt. This isn't a reflection on housekeeping, just a necessary precaution to be sure to have a clean surface for finish to adhere. Only then should you carefully scuff sand with 320 grit. Sanding before cleaning can just imbed contaminants, making them harder to remove.
If the results aren't satisfactory, you can always strip. Varnish that is only a month old lifts very easily with stripper.
Steve has given you all the possibilities I think. If you do have to strip I would not do the bottom portions unless they are also showing wear you can't live with!! So be very careful about any drips of stripper on places you arn't stripping. ;o)
Hi,
The finish on the kitchen table must be at least 15 yrs old. In some tiny areas the finish has worn down to the barewood. So I think it's just as well to take the table out into garden while the weather is nice and slap on the stripper. Dont' worry I don't want to make more work for myself. I am not touching the bottom or sides of the table. Just the top.
Is it necessary to sand the table before applying the stain? This time around I might just use Mini Wax polyshades (poly and stain in one)
Wanda
Let me STRONGLY recommend that you avoid Polyshades. This product, and the similar combination products from other makers, is virtually impossible to apply in a way that gives even, non-streaky color. When applying finish by hand, it's almost always better to keep the steps separate.
After you strip the top, you will have to be sure to neutralize the stripper--the product label will tell you the material to use--often mineral spirits. If the original stain was a consumer product it likely combined a dye along with the pigmented stain. If so you may need to use bleach--in this case, chlorine bleach diluted about 50-50 to remove the dye, or most of it.
Hi Steve,
I take it you're not a fan of the Yankee Workshop! I watched an espisode last night and Norm was building a linen closet out of recycled pine. He uses Polyshades by Mini Wax on most of his pine pieces.
Just applies it with one of those foam brushes... brushing back and forth.
I've never used that product before I usually stain and then apply a finish. 2 seperate steps. For the kitchen table I applied the stain using a rag (old cotton sock) applied it liberally let it sit for 3 min and then wiped it over again with the cloth. I used a brush to apply the finish. (polyurethane by Mini Wax) Workd out well.
For my next pine project (shaker style dresser) I think I'll use shellac. It's easy to apply and quick to dry. Staining pine can be tricky. Since it tends to blotch.
Do you have any other suggestions for finishing pine. What's your favorite finish? (for pine furniture)
Wanda
I'm no finish guru and usually keep my nose out of this section. But.. I totally agree with Steve on teh Poly-shades. I used it once several years ago and it was impossible to get it even. I eventually junked the piece and just built another one. Maybe they have changed the formula as that experience was several years ago but.. I would personally never use it again the for the exact reason Steve stated.
Good luck...
Sarge..
All of what Steve said about removing the stripper. It really shouldn't be very difficult to remove your finish. You may not even need to stain--I always hope not! When you are removing the stripper with mineral spirits (probably), the color you see on the wood will be the color you will get with a clear finish--for example, your wipe on varnish. If that is attractive to you, no stain necessary. If you don't have to bleach, don't.
I remove stripper first with a dull putty knife,and then with 00 steel wool, opened out to make use of the entire pad. There is usually no need for more than very light sanding (after removing the stripper lots of mineral spirits and letting the surface dry) before applying a finish. You may not have to stain because the stain may remain and you will be ready to just apply your topcoat.
You might try a better grade of varnish for your finish than Minwax. And a non-poly varnish will give you a much nicer "in the wood" look than poly.Gretchen
HI Gretchen,
Thanks for the info. Hopefully I won't have to stain. I'll just have to wait and see what it looks like when the paint thinner dries.
I'm going to be busy.. I have 2 other small end tables that need to be refinished as well.
I dread having to lift that table out onto the lawn! It's now or never. while the weather holds.
wanda
You are welcome for any help. I urge you to do all your refinishing at one time. My sister and I did a week of refinishing one time--strip, then put it on. Just line it up. It is so much easier that way rather than "starting over" .
I have refinished on my patio many a time!!
If you have to "stain" you might think about using Watco and then putting the resistant topcoating on. Good looking "in the wood' look.
Is your pine new construction? All the things I posted about how it looks with a wipe of mineral spirits goes for new wood also. Wipe it down with mineral spirits and you will see if it will "blotch".
Gretchen
Edited 5/22/2009 8:47 pm ET by Gretchen
Yes maam! Strip the old girl down and give her a fresh new solid even finish. Spot repairs are impossible and disappointing.
It depends on the look that you want. I often utilize such events as opportunities to get a sort of rustic aged patina look going. If you want it to look factory new... that would require more skill than you have... best to strip then.
Polyshades is not the ogre that has been portrayed here but most who have the skill to use it with nice results will also have better alternatives in mind. As far as Norm is concerned... it's a pretty good bet that the polyshades mfrs. are among his many sponsors.
It depends on the look that you want. I often utilize such events as opportunities to get a sort of rustic aged patina look going. If you want it to look factory new... that would require more skill than you have... best to strip then.
I don't understand your point here. If you strip, you DO preserve the patina of the wood. If you sand you make it factory new. I just don't quite "get" your point? Thanks. ;o)Gretchen
"If you strip, you DO preserve the patina of the wood."That is a unique point of view! I have always assumed quite the opposite. Certainly stripping can leave it's own patina behind... but it'd be quite a stretch to call it "the patina of the wood".
As opposed to sanding or scraping. Do you have another method of removing finish?Gretchen
I like citra strip it is less nasty and neutralizes with water. I have "burnt" wood using solvent strippers you could see the areas were the layers were thicker. Learned a new blue word or two.
Just asking. how far does wood patina extend into the surface? I know that would be species specific but????? Thinking UV rays mostly. Just one of these nebuless questions running thru the brain. sometimes when cutting stock you can see how far the finish has penetrated and others not.Cleaning before sanding makes sense thanks Steve.
I have some old tables I made and the kids have antiqued them well. they are finished with tung oil. I would like to remove the Koolaid stains and errent artwork. Any hints??
Thanks all
There are three things that impart "patina" to wood. o Oxidation (reaction of the wood to oxygen. Occurs at all times even in the absence of light. o Reaction to UV in sunight. o Residue of prior coloring (dye and pigment stains) of wood.Howie.........
And if you use water to remove the stripper it raises the grain to high heaven and you have to sand much more. My preference is to get the job done in good ventilation. And citra stripper won't really do the job on old paint. It might be okay for clear finishes. I'd still remove with mineral spirits or denatured alcohol. Grain stays put.
What do you mean by "burn"? Did you leave stripper on raw wood? That is a no no and will "stain" the wood. Gretchen
Guilty as charged
What's your take on soybean oil to remove finish and paint Gretchen?
Thanks...
Sarge..
Did you say "snake oil"?!!! LOL I'm a methylene chloride sort of girl all the way. ;o)Gretchen
Thanks.. I don't do much stripping as I personally hate it. Frankly.. I consider it easier to just build in lieu of refinish an older piece. But.. I did see soy-oil demonstrated at a WW'ing show about 3 years ago. They just spread in it a door with 6 coats of paint. They also did the same to a door with built up varnish.
I wandered off and was told to come back by in about two hours (?) I believe. At that point the paint and finish just scraped right off with a paint scraper.. No fumes and it didn't raise the grain. I doubt I will ever need any method to strip finish but.. I occasionally do have occasion around the house to strip paint.
Thanks anyway as I had a feeling you might not be familiar with it as you have your methods that are proven to you already that are time tested. Kind of like having a box full of fishing lures at your disposal. You always seem to pick up the one that caught a fish for you in the past. ha.. ha...
Have a good day ma'am...
Sarge..
Here it is. http://www.safehomeproducts.com/shp2/product/soyclean-paint-stripper-1-gallon/soy-based-cleaners-strippers-and-removers/clean-latex-pain/159011/159011.aspxGretchen
I don't know any specifics about that particular product, but am somewhat taken aback by the MSDS, which states the composition is proprietary and would be given to a physician in an emergency situation.
In checking around about soy based strippers in general, I see that a number of them are based around N-Methyl Pyrrolidone (NMP), with the addition of the soy oil (and or other vegegtable oils) having an enhancing effect on the action, acccording to one patent I read. NMP strippers have been around a long time, but are slow. But because the material evaporates so slowly, slow is OK--you can leave the stripper on for long periods (days) without the risk that the finish being stripped reattaching itself as the solvent evaporates. It is possible that these soy products are basically new ways of marketing NMP strippers or perhaps they may be "soy enhanced" NMP strippers.
Edited 5/27/2009 8:43 am ET by SteveSchoene
Soya oil as it comes out of the beans or was it soya oil based?
I posted the link.Gretchen
Thanks Gretchen. I knew it was available as I saw it on Amazon even and a few other sources. At that time it shipped via Amazon from the same company that I saw originally demonstrating it at the WW Show. I do believe they had a patent or something.
And.. thanks for refering the post to me to the web-site as I am breaking between glue-ups...
Regards...
Sarge..
From my observation davcefai.. it impressed me both with the fantastice job of removing the paint and the fact it was non caustic which are both important in no certain order to me. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
A number of years ago there was this incredible infomercial that did all this is said to do. Studio audience, all the ohs and ahs, etc. Fast forward to my reading some refinishing forum where someone admitted he was the "refinisher" on that show, and it was smoke and mirrors. This might not be, but there are a lot of ways to make it look like a bunch of paint was removed. I would take my own board and ask them to strip it personally. Sometimes things are just too good to be true.
And at $50 per gallon, it had better come with a human applicator/scraper!! :O)Gretchen
Inflation I suppose.. it was around $20 a gallon back then if I remember correctly. And no.. I wouldn't jump on a gallon at that price. The smallest container would tell me if it really is what I saw. Frankly the stuff has been on the market for several years and I have a feeling something negative would have been said by now. I haven't seen anything negative but the reason I asked as I really don't frequent any finish forums. Rather.. just pass through and pause to read something of interest to me.
I will say that the lady who was in the booth did dip her finger in the contents and lick it off her finger. I just did a search on Amazon and the product is called Soy Gel Paint and Urethane Remover. The web-site you directed says basically paint. And the Amazon is shipped from Rockler. 14 reviews and 5 stars seem to be the norm.
Not sure if your site is the same source or not as they don't mention urethane and at the show both were demonstrated? And you think the price was bad on your site.. $64 a gallon on the Amazon site. Rockler is proud of what they sell from my experience. In lieu of strip paint at that price.. this ole boy from the N. Georgia hills will probably just buy a tarp and throw it over the old paint to hide it. In other word.. I am one cheap mu-tha... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Have a good evening Miss Gretchen...
Sarge..
If it works it is worth it--you don't "reapply" because it "doesn't dry out". BUT also I don't tend to eat ANYthing I put on something to remove paint. I recognize the drama of it, but it is just that --drama.
I'll still bring my own board for stripping. If Rockler is selling it, or whoever, do they guarantee its efficacy? If so I'll be at the store tomorrow. And also, in my life, fortunately, I have been able to drastically cut down my "need" for strippers--paint that is!! Although I do have a pretty nice 6 board chest with awful grain painting on it (I know--but it is badly done) that is gorgeous pine.Gretchen
I think the taste test was just to show it was organic.. non toxic and not harmful. Hey... you gotta do what you gotta do to get a foot firmly planted in a market that is wickedly competitive. I had a friend years ago that was experimenting with orange peels that were left over from orange juice concentrate plants down in Florida. The peels were considered pretty much useless at the time.
He came up with the fact that the citrus oils from peels would clean pretty well and tried to market it to Amway and a host of other concerns that had capabilities to distribute a citrus based cleaner product. It was a struggle for years to get to market but... he finally did find some people that showed interest and took it to production. All said... he's done pretty well since. :>)
I have never painted a piece of furniture period but... I have seen a few pieces that look very nice with earth toned paint. Mostly country style furniture which I personally like. But.. I could never bring myself to put paint over a piece of wood as it hides the true beauty that lies underneath the paint.
BTW.. I have no idea if Rockler guarantees' it or not. I had no clue they sold soy-gel until today. If I ever do strip some paint.. that would probably be a question I would ask or even better... I would call the manufacturer direct as they probably have a much better idea about the product than someone that answers the phone at Rockler IMO.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 5/26/2009 10:54 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Your aversion to paint makes the point for stripper--reveal that beautiful wood--unless it is "keeper" paint!
Of course that was why she ate the stripper. No arguement. I think if you call the manufacturer they will HAVE to say, of course it works like a charm.Gretchen
"I think if you call the manufacturer they will HAVE to say, of course it works like a charm".
Of course they will but.... I personally saw it work. Now... the question is were they playing a pea under the shell game or performing an illusion which basically boils down to a scam? I simply don't know and the reason I ask you or any of the other guru's if they were familiar with the product?
My common sense tells me that I saw the product about 3 years ago and I still see it on the market today. It is difficult to conceal a Scam for that period of time. The review on Amazon for the gallon has 12 5 stars and 2 4 stars. The reviewers for the quart are a mixed bag with some 5 stars and some as low as two. But... I also see reviews for a TS that are bad as a customer cannot found a .010 dip in an extension wing which they think is the end of the world since their world is not reality being that nit picky. The gallon statement on Amazon does state contains no methylene chloride whatever that means? You will know.
I called Rockler and ask if the product could ship Two Day Air. Yes.. that tells me there is no flammables in it as that is a distinct no-no to ship flammables Air freight. Trust me on that as the carriers will not accept and a business would go out in a large limb they don't want to be on business wise attempting to do so.
Now that you guys have gotten my curiosity up... I do believe I will order a quart at $20 and just see for myself. I don't need a quart at the moment really and I am not going to invest in a gallon for sure. But.. my interest has been peaked and when it is.. I make an effort to satisfy it for nothing else than I want to know for whatever reason.
So.. from a finishers perspective.. is there anything I need to look for or try once I get some to test. I hate to go to the trouble.. then someone to come back on the method I used and say.. you didn't do this... you didn't do that so.... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 5/27/2009 10:38 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Why is it that people think something has to be either a silver bullet or a scam, and nothing in between? Reality check: It's just paint stripper, folks. Is it the greatest thing since sliced bread? Probably not. Is it worthless? Probably not. I'm sure that the stuff works. Is it better than Brand X? If you'd paid any attention to any paint stripper reviews over the years, you'd know that different ones work better or worse in different situations. Why would this one be any different? And it's not exactly surprising that the manufacturer is going to try to present it in the best light.
Either try it out for yourself or wait until someone else tries it, and then read the review. This endless speculation about scams and such is beyond ridiculous.
-Steve
I have never said it was a scam just to be clear. And I agree--it could work and work well in some cases. I tend to stay with the one that I KNOW will work, and how it will work--as was mentioned about pulling out the fishing plug that caught the last fish.
I would love to hear someone's first hand unbiased experience.
Gretchen
Edited 5/27/2009 11:15 am ET by Gretchen
Steve.. fact is... I have not paid any attention to paint stripper reviews. I simply saw this demonstrated 3 years ago and it worked. I don't strip much paint but do have an occasional need but... I absolutely attempt to avoid the task as I really don' care for the nasty contents of brands I have tried to this point. As I have already stated... I had much rather just build a new piece which I am capable of.
This was just a question I threw out to see if Gretchen or any of the people that gravitate on finishing had used it as I have on more than one occasion wondered if the company was still producing it and how others perceived it if they have. I'm sorry the question lead to any conflict between participants here... truly sorry.
But.. my curiosity has been peaked and indeed I will get a quart and see for myself. I just made the decision that I have no intent after starting a conflict which I had no intentions of... to post publicly what I find out personally.
So... why don't we just drop the subject and I will take care of my curiosity in the way I normally do which is find out for myself. I do trust my own judgement over any written review. Once I know.. then I will know..
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,
I took no personal affront. It's just that this forum seems to be especially susceptible to what I call Rampant Unsubstantiated Speculation Syndrome (RUSS™). It starts innocently enough, when someone posts a question, one that no one knows the answer to. In accordance with human nature, people speculate. Sometimes it's informed speculation (also known as "educated guessing"), but often it feeds on itself and takes on a life of its own, and before you know it, people are talking about conspiracy theories and assassination plots.
It seems like people prefer to reject the simple, commonsense answer in favor of the one filled with intrigue and ulterior motives.
-Steve
Computers and I are not a match made in heaven to begin with. I do tend to agree that sometimes something simple as asking a question can get a bit muddy as we find a way to substitute the simple with a complication. In conclusion.. I do have a curiosity about the product so I should have just gone to Amazon and searched to see if it is still there which it is. Ordered it.. received it.. used it.. and then I would have the answer that I was looking for.
And as I stated... that's exactly what I am going to do even though I have no paint to strip currently. But.. when my project down in the shop is done, I'm taking 3 months off after completing 9 carcass pieces in a year and a half... high humidity here and excellent time to find something painted I can strip..
So.. being familiar with stealth, night operations... I will be on the prowl. If they have something painted left outside... neighbors beware of the former Ranger Sarge from the Vietnam era. ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 5/27/2009 7:27 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
For what it is worth,I thought we were doing pretty well with the discussion,and if you get some, please tell us. ;o) I saw no "degeneration" at all,and we "talked".
I once got some "remover" that was touted to remove milk paint. AND it did. But it became hard to get, and expensive to ship, and I no longer needed to remove milk paint (this was not "keeper" milk paint for the conservators out there). And it was water thin. Amazing stuff.
Also got some brass and copper cleaner that was OUTSTANDING--it would remove the "tarnish" and then the polishing was easy. I think it is/was just dilute sulphuric acid, but it was WONDerful, and I have preserved just a little.Gretchen
Thanks for your help. I intend to order some in the next few weeks as I am really curious as to how well it will work. Normally I wouldn't have given paint stripper any thought as it's just not my forte but... I was somewhat fascinated someone found something that might possibly work and did not contain the nasty chemicals I personally don't like to be around.
If I don't use a vapor mask in my shop when using standard finishes, I get nose bleed easily as I am on blood thinners. The vapor of oil based irritates my nostril lining something terrible. And the shop doors are usually open when I finish with an exhaust fan running as I am in a very mild climate here.
Again... thanks for your take...
Sarge..
You have good reason to avoid that stuff--and I don't do it often, as I might if it were a business. ;o)Gretchen
It's a business I have personally avoided at all cost, Miss Gretchen. See my post to Steve S. I just posted.
Again thanks for your in-put...
Sarge..
who woke up breathing today... Again.. ha.. ha...
As I mentioned earlier, my guess is that many of these are variations on the NMP strippers. These work slowly, and if you have expectations of a quick strip you may be disappointed. (And the labels may "over promise" about the speed.) But working slowly isn't all a bad thing. The NMP takes a very long time to evaporate so you can apply and let it work for a day or two, where it will continue working.
Methylene chloride strippers may require multiple applications which means more work in that sense, even if it does the job more quickly. And, MC strippers have hazardous fumes because of the rapid evaporation. This means real ventilation is needed BUT the air movement that implies speeds evaporation of the solvents -- reducing effectiveness since you would have to reapply the stripper more often. It's a catch 22. Covering with plastic wrap can help.
The good news is I am a very patient man and take all the time I need. I allow finish on projects to cure for at least two weeks before applying wax and then another week for it to gas off before moving to the intended location. I don't mind waiting weeks for wood to acclimate in my shop before proceeding.
I don't consider waiting down-time really as I just perform other task by organizing my work to do just that. I really have no intent of using the nasties... I have spent well over 30 years in restoring old muscle cars from the 50's-70's and I have seen what happens to the guys that man the paint booths with spray equipment 8-10 hours a day.
Just not my cup of tea to work around chemicals and vapors for any extended lengths of time. I wouldn't even consider stripping with the MC products frankly under any circumstances. If I did I would take it to someone who does it for a living as again.. I just ain't going there personally. :>)
Regards and thanks for the info, Steve..
Sarge..
Edited 5/28/2009 10:09 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
My question was due to the fact that I cannot get that product here but may be able to get straight soya bean oil.I suppose the trick is to just ret it.Thanks.
I'm giving my kitchen cabs a facelift right now and am:
- Scrubbing everything with a plastic "scrubbie" and a TSP solution
- Washing with glass cleaner
- Wiping down with mineral spirits
- Scuff sanding with a "Medium" grit foam sanding sponge
- Tacking off
- Brushing on a light coat of stain then wiping it off with a rag
- Applying 3-4 coats of Minwax Polycrylic finish.
So far, they're coming out great and look even better than when I built them 12 years ago. When I add the new hinges and hardware, they'll look like brand new.
The biggest surprise was how grungy they had gotten over the years. Cleaning is definitely the key.
Hi Dave,
I certainly don't envy you.. sooner or later I'll have to redo my kitchen cabinets. They're 16 yrs old oak cabinets and the finish is slowly wearing off. For this year I just cleaned them using Murphy's oil soap.
I know what's involved in cleaning cabinets. They had a show on about that not too long ago on This Old House. I am not looking forward to stripping, cleaning, sanding and finishing the kitchen cabinets.. I'll put it off as long as possible! :)
Wanda
Wanda -The point of my post was to suggest that a full-blown clean, strip, sand, restain, and refinish may not be necessary.If the only problem is a deteriorating finish, a good cleaning, scuff sanding, stain touchup (wipe it on and wipe it off), followed by a new finish. It's certainly a chore, but not as bad as doing the whole strip and refinish thing.Here are a couple of pictures of my cabs. The four drawer base is the "before" shot. I probably have two or three hours max in the "after" base cab. Part of the "facelift" includes new door hinges and I'm adding drawer pulls and door knobs.
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