I posted a ? here last week about an old piano we were acquiring. Thanks for all who answered. Well the snow finally melted and the movers showed up with it. Contrary to what the previous owner said, it’s mahogany, not walnut (I was listening for tone more than inspecting wood species on our initial visit.) The finish is shellac, crazed heavily alligatored and darkened shellac, with a few rub through areas. It was not originally finished to be piano black, but to have its beautiful ribbon mahogany veneers and solids shine.
I have some experience with refinishing. I’m going to try cleaning with a dewaxer & then an amalgamator to try and revive/rearrange the finish, but I have little faith they can get back the shine I want. I am assuming I have to strip, dye (to match a couple of low wear/low light exposure areas, ie intact original finish, which are stunningly beautiful), fill pores and then put on a top coat. I have NO experience with a true French polish. It sounds tricky & like a heck of a lot of work. However like everyone I want a premium product in the end so I’ll go through the steps if I have to.
My questions then: Any suggestions/experience with the “padding lacquers” I see in catalogs? (Behlen makes one) Will the result look as good and be as durable as a true French polish? Are they significantly easier/faster to apply? Any tricks in using? Any brands to use? Avoid?
Luckily I can remove the bottom panel and practice on the completely hidden back of it first, then do the front side which is visible only to crawling babies & pets. By then I should be ready for prime time. Thanks. Jim
Replies
Jim,
It sounds like a wonderful project. I french polished a very large desk one and it was a huge job. You can pad shellac though and get a very nice finish. You might consider spraying lacquer and then using automotive polishes and a buffer.
I think that there are established formulas for doing pianos. Some research is worth the time spent.
Jim:
First of all I want to make it clear that I really don't know squat about finishing and I am just a novice woodworker. But I would like to share an experience in piano refinishing that my family had in 1977 with a "professional" piano refinisher.
My mother had the family piano, (originally purchased in 1925 by my grandfather), sent out to a local piano refinisher. During the refinishing process they failed to adequately protect the felt padding material on the dampers. The refinishers used a spray finish and the over spray landed on the felt creating a thin but hard layer. The layer now causes a momentary buzzing sound when the damper touches a vibrating string. Not all of the dampers were affected but it is noticeable.
Unfortunately, in 1977 no one in the family was playing the piano and the problem went unnoticed. It wasn't until I took possession in 1993 that the cause of the buzzing was detected by a piano tuner.
It sounds like you are planning on refinishing your piano by hand and not using a spray finish. Just in case you decide to spray, please keep my family's experience in mind.
Take care,
Greg
I'd just pad on shellac. It's ideal for this application, looks beautiful, and it's easy. Plus, you can limit yourself to just refinishing the really bad areas, and sanding and recoating the good areas. You can strip with an acetone/ toluene/ methanol stripper, rather than methylene chloride.
Take the piano apart as much as you can before refinishing. It's amazing how many pieces come off with just a couple of screws. On a lot of pianos, the keyboard an mechanism each come out in one piece; be careful and make sure nothing falls off, or you'll have a problem. Cover the strings and such to keep drips off.
Don't get in a hurry. It takes a lot of time.
Michael R
Thanks to you and the others who responded to my query. I've already discovered a number of pieces that I can remove to the safety of the shop for refinishing.
I've had a lot of experience using Citristrip to strip shellac so I'll use that if necessary. An article in Fine WW a year ago or so pointed out the extreme toxicity of Methyl Chloride strippers so I avoid them. The poster who pointed out the pitfalls of spraying a finish & hardening the hammer felt was spot on. When my mail order almagator arrives I'll see what it does & if it's not up to snuff, I'll do the strip & pad. Any tips on brands of padding lacquer that are better than others? Or can I just make up my own shellac mix and have at it? Again thanks.
If you are stripping shellac denatured alcohol is so simple, even compared to Citristrip.Gretchen
I agree that Citristrip might be not as easy as alcohol as a stripper. Strippers conatining acetone, toluene, and methanol have the advantage of not drying as fast, but both will do well on shellac.
As far as finish goes, mix up your own shellac and pad it on. Padding lacquers are mainly for furniture repair and are formulated for minimum build. About a 2 lb cut of shellac would be a good start. After you have a nice build, you can sand it and apply a couple if 1 LB coats for final coats.
Michael R.
About a 2 lb cut of shellac would be a good start. After you have a nice build, you can sand it and apply a couple if 1 LB coats for final coats.
I thought that shellac didn't "build". One coat is enough since other coats just redissolve into the finish--not layers.
Gretchen
Gretchen,
Shellac "builds" like any other surface film finish. Each succeeding coat does not completely redissolve the one under it, but does dissolve enough of the surface to bond completely. (It's lacquer that has the ability to loosen every previous layer).
The most beautiful shellac finishes are those that are built from many very thin applications such as french polishing. Yes, the final surface film is one solid entity that will not produce witness lines if sanded.
But applying a single thick shellac film is not very attractive. I have had to disabuse a number of people of the notion that shellac is a "junk" finish. Their only exposure to it was by carpenters who slopped 3 lb cuts on softwood plywood panels with brushes looking more like brooms. The shellac moisture-sealed and completely "killed" the odor of the wood (which would have gotten worse with time). One thick coat and they were done. A testament to the versatility of this substance.
VL
>>I thought that shellac didn't "build". One coat is enough since other coats just redissolve into the finish--not layers.
I'm currently working, off and on, on an 1860's piano that has a French polished (shellac) finish that must be around .020" thick, so that should answer the question about build. It's taking forever to build up the damaged areas, but it sure is beautiful.
Sorry about the file size. They're only about 45K when I Email them. Guess I'll have to shrink the next one a little more.
Michael R.
Edited 1/17/2004 1:52:35 PM ET by Woodwiz
Really nice piano. From what I know square grand pianos like your's were very popular in the 1800's. Evidently they stopped making them around 1885. My sister in law has one. It is a beautiful Rosewood, which the previous owner had painted white!! (For all my liberal views I do believe that capital punishment is necessary in certain cases.) She had it professionally stripped and now it's a beauty. Good luck on your project.
What exactly is the difference between "padding on" the shellac (which sounds fairly easy) and a true French polish (which sounds very difficult?) Or is this all a marketing/branding thing? "Yes, madam you'll notice the fine $$French Polish $$ on that piece."
Edited 1/17/2004 3:07:28 PM ET by Jim
>>What exactly is the difference between "padding on" the shellac (which sounds fairly easy) and a true French polish (which sounds very difficult?) Or is this all a marketing/branding thing? "Yes, madam you'll notice the fine $$French Polish $$ on that piece."
In padding, the pad is just an applicator, like a brush or paint pad. It's real easy to control with thin finishes, and doesn't leave much in the way of marks or ridges like a brush does. Looks good, quick, easy.
In french polishing, once you have your ground established, many thin layers are padded on in a systematic manner, lubricated with a little oil. It's very much akin to spit shining, if you were in the service. You are actually polishing as you apply shellac. When you get to the build you want, you use thinner and thinner material, so at the end, you are "spiriting off" with just alcohol. There are, of course shortcuts, but the finest finishes are pretty much done the way I described.
You end up with a glossy, deep looking finish that is just breathtaking on good wood.
It's not all that big a thing. Just about anybody can do it. It requires patience and a certain amount of centeredness, but mistakes are easily correctible, if a little time consuming. I wouldn't spend the time doing it on anything but the very best pieces, mostly antiques.
did you mean 3lb cut? that would be a good way to go.
>>did you mean 3lb cut? that would be a good way to go.
I find a 2 LB cut easier to work with; it seems to level better and not leave ridges. I can usually do about 3 coats at a session, two sessions a day when it's not too cold. But whatever works is fine. If you can handle a 3LB cut, that's cool, too. Once I have a body built up, I cut back to 1 LB, and reduce it further each day as the polish develops.
Nice looking piano; should be worth restoring. Does the cat come with it?
Michael R
Ya know..that's why I had more trouble getting the top most coats looking good..I WAS going 3lb. (straight from the can) and NOT thinning the last..Duh. Thanks for that.
No, the cat came with the house..'' 'tater" is her name..she's a keeper. The pie'ana will be restored when I get the house done..if ya venture over to BreakTime..you can see wassup at "Photos" My ole Kentucky home take 2"..what a project.
That's cool one you got there too..what is it?..(besides georgous)...Duane
>>That's cool one you got there too..what is it?..(besides georgous)...Duane
It's a square rosewood piano by Decker Brothers, made sometime after 1862 (the patent date.) It had been stored in a damp basement, so the legs were all moldy and grey, and someone had let a leaky vase or something similar sit on the lid so long that water got under the finish and curled some of the 1/16" thick veneer (must have been months). Plus, there were lots of nicks and dents.
I had to take the finish off down to the wood over about a one or two square foot area on a couple of parts, match the color, and build the finish back up. There is a substantial layer of tinted shellac under the top coats, so blending the colors in was a chore, and it's taking coat after coat to match the build. It must have taken 3 months to finish it originally.
The curled veneer is on a long seam that goes the length of the lid, right in the center. The shellac is so thick that I cant get the wood to lay down by the normal mehods. Next thing I am going to try is a homemade "steam pen" that will steam the underside of the veneer enough that I can lay it down. Ammonia fumes have also been suggested to soften the wood, but I'm saving that for last.
I get paid for this kind of stuff, but I don't make much money at it, especially compared to what my normal work pays. But, a guy's got to have a little fun once in a while, right?
Oh, yeah- Mix your own shellac. It's worth the little bit of extra time. You'd swear you weren't even using the same kind of finish. I haven't used canned shellac since about 1960. (No, I'm not that old; I used to help my dad remodel houses when I was a kid.)
Michael R
Edited 1/17/2004 3:10:58 PM ET by Woodwiz
Way cool..I might go mix my own when I get my shop back to 'normal' ..uh, steam pen..check out .. http://www.stewmac.com
For a steamer Idea ..guitar finger boards are steamed off @ the neck to heel joint..they have a thing like a hypodemic nerdle that works well..
>>uh, steam pen..check out .. http://www.stewmac.com
That's exactly the sort of thing I was going to cobble together, but for the time it would take, it's better to buy. The espresso maker idea is a good one too. I was going to use a hot plate and a clean paint can.
I used to work on guitars and violins a bit when I was still playing. I used heat lamps to get fingerboards loose. No drilling, but you gotta be careful.
Michael R.
I still play (when the hands cooperate) and do/have done a ton of repairs..I love little tricks that save the day in the nick of time..have at it bro...Oh, BTW..child of the 60's also..lol
Wanna practice on this one?
Nice looking piano, looks like a classic Victorian vintage model. What wood is it made from? Is that a carving of a female figure I see in the corner? Try this link if you want to research your piano. http://www.bluebookofpianos.com/ From the shellac work I have done (though never the real French polish deal) I find mixing up my own and using about a 2 lb cut vastly superior to the 3 lb straight from the can. Good luck on the project.
Edited 1/17/2004 3:03:20 PM ET by Jim
That bad boy is walnut..missing a bit here and there but it all works..have not even looked at it too close yet..it was in the house I bought..mostly in the way.
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