I am having a house built & we are to the cabinet stage of things now. It’s an Arts & Crafts – style house, so we are using riftsawn & quartersawn oak for the kitchen cabinets. The cabinets have flush-mount doors with a 70/30 split panel pattern.
My question is: is there a significant difference between red oak & white oak if the majority will be riftsawn?
I know that white oak has the best quartersawn figure, but it is also $22 more per sheet. Also is the staining difference significant: i.e., will the difference be noticeable if I use white oak in the kitchen & red oak in the bathroom with the same stain?
Replies
It depends on how authentic you want to be.
A lot of Craftsman furniture was white oak and I don't ever remember seeing any red oak.
Most of the cabinets you see in Arts and Crafts houses were not either red or white oak. I am much more into furniture than cabinets so I am doing this from memory, but I think most cabinets were mahogany.
I recently made a kitchen island and sideboard in the Stickley style out of walnut. That is definitely not an authentic wood for either one but my wife likes it and so has everyone else who has seen it.
I would go to the library and look at Arts and Crafts home books to see what you like.
Domer
I guess to simplify my question - Is there much difference between the figure or grain of red oak vs white oak? And will the inherent color difference make a difference in staining?
Thanks.
(I would love to do mahogany cabinets, but cost is definitely an issue. :)
It will be very difficult to stain red oak and white oak to look the same.
They both look "oakish" but side by side not all that similar. I would go with the white oak if at all possible in order to take advantage of the white oak quartersawn advantages where you can, but not give your self major headaches trying to make other items match with the white oak.
That is definitely not an authentic wood for either one but my wife likes it ..
ALL THAT COUNTS!
eireannach,
i'd love to hear your name pronounced. i'll bet it is fun to say, sort of baritone-like...
having worked with red and white there's not that much of a difference. during the last two or three decades it seemed as though everything was being made from the red. so white is less boring than red. are you going to have to look at the cabinets for a significant chunk of your life? maybe it's worth the 22 bucks more.
eef
Choose one or the other. Do not, under any circumstance, mix them in the same project under the assumption that you will be able to even out the difference with stain.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
I have a lot of A&C-"ish" trim and cab work. I've used maple, red oak, white oak & cherry. Even some touches of walnut and cocobolo! None is finished to match any other. Every room has its own theme and look.
Nobody has walked into my house and commented that the various woods are not "authentic". (Few have enough knowledge to even notice.) Further, since I was not attempting to duplicate the style, only emulate it, even those "in the know" would have no real objection.
I would agree with David -- don't try to mix & match in the same unit, or try to make red oak look like white oak. It'll just stand out as faux. Let each species stand on its own.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I agree about not mixing the wood in the same units, but what I was thinking was using white oak in the kitchen and red oak everywhere else, so the two species are separated by rooms. From comments so far, it sounds like that would be a reasonable approach. I definitely appreciate all of your comments - this forum is a wealth of knowledge.
Your choice(s) really depend upon two factors: 1) the style you are attempting to emulate and 2) your personal taste. Our kitchen cabinets are Red Oak and both the kitchen and dining room are trimmed in RO. My Young Bride and I enjoy the look of the RO, and it is readily available in our area.
If you are really trying to emulate a particular style, do some research (relative to your area) and see what the original craftsmen used. Sometimes they went for what was considered exotic at the moment, and other occasions they just used what was handy.
Last thought: a friend bought a 150 year old house in central Indiana a few years ago. He was very excited to discover that the rafters and ceiling joists were made of Cherry! He began stripping the woodwork to show off this great wood, but all of the trim was Pine! A little research determined that the framing lumber had been cut from native timber while the thoughtful homebuilder had imported Pine for the interior trim!
E ,
To try and answer your questions :
Is there a significant difference , well you mean in looks I think , Rift grain may be more similar in W vs R as opposed to QS , so the grain patterns can be very similar in Rift .
You are talking QS and Rift in the kitchen it sounds like , why not just use QS for the whole kitchen . This way you will have more QS to select door stock and such . Use the remainder along with some Rift for the other rooms .
Typically the only QS plywood in the kitchen would be the finished ends and such , so usually only a small handful of sheets .Even at $22 more you may only be talking $100 , don't let that stop you from having what you want.
check on the cost of Rift vs QS in WO , my supplier was more for Rift than QS in 3/4" plywood .
Imho mixing and staining to look a like will not be the best approach, use one or the other . To me the main difference is the White it' so much harder and more closed grain not ring porous like Red . The White takes a finish more like Maple because it is so closed cell or grain you get a quick build and primo finish with White Oak.
I have used more Northern Red Oak , Rift ,QS , plain sawn over the years then any other wood probably , but in the last few years have enjoyed the benefits and looks and integrity of White Oaks.
dusty, currently building a Mission Style Com desk of QSRO , next job QSWO kitchen Shaker Style (whatever that is )
dusty,
"qswo kitchen shaker style, what ever that is..."
as one old kitchen maker said to the other, "it's what ever they, with the money,think it is."
eef- ever glad he ain't making kitchens for the rich no more.
Edited 2/26/2009 12:29 pm ET by Eef
How many sheets are you talking about for the cabinets?
Its not like it will add an extra 1K.
Either species will LOOK FINE.
Pick the 1 you like and get to it.
This is going to sound real snotty..
Please trust me I don't intend to insult rather to simply understand your priorities so I can't use my opion to overwhelm your honest feelings..
You say you are having an arts and crafts home built. True arts and crafts homes are as much about craftsmanship as any given material.
True Craftsmanship does not come cheap. It's never the low bidder..
So are you looking for authentic or are you looking for something that sorta looks kinda right?
Just for a rough standard,
Authentic doesn't use plywood but solid quartersawn white oak.. experts understand the differance in a heart beat.. However if your goal isn't to impress experts but simply adapt an affordable style then red oak plywood is fine..
Wow, If you weren't confused before posting this, you should be after reading some of these responses.
To answer your question about staining. If your chosen color needs a little red added to make the white oak get there, you can add the red. If that same color does not have any reddish tones in it, it is harder to get rid of the red of red-oak to get to the finish color, so the obvious answer would be choose white oak.
I would suggest that you get a nice board of each, and give them to your painter, along with as much information as you can to show your painter, then get him to show you what he can do with each.
You said, "I know that white oak has the best quartersawn figure ". I don't know if that is necessarily so. Maybe just the samples that you were looking at. There can be a tremendous variation in either depending on the growing conditions.
Once again, I will point out, that you have no information in your profile. You could benefit by giving your location. There may be a supplier which you have no knowledge of that could save you some money, or offer a better selection, or both.
While there may be some overlap in individual boards, it is a general characteristic that it is quartersawn white oak that has the most prominent flake structure.
It is more than just color and the quarter sawn flake pattern that distinquishes the two varieties. The rays (the longitudinal marks on the surface of flat sawn) are quite a bit longer on white oak (greater than 3/4" on average) than on red oak. White oak, in the same region grows slower and will therefore have tighter grain, though this will vary from area to area. Pores tend to be larger and more prominent on red than on white.
Having different woods on different pieces is quite OK. There is no design rule that says all the woods in a house, or even in a room, must match. It is often better to have the differences turn out large enough that there is no doubt that they are meant to be different as opposed to having tried to make them the same but missed by a bit.
As a gratuitous personal opinion, let me add that whenever you use hardwood plywood for cabinets or furniture I would always prefer personally to be sure that you use plywood with sliced veneer, and never the cheaper rotary cut veneer that gives wild grain that doesn't coordinate with solid wood very well at all.
Edited 2/27/2009 7:09 am ET by SteveSchoene
Hey Steve, Here is the last sentence of the original question. "Also is the staining difference significant: i.e., will the difference be noticeable if I use white oak in the kitchen & red oak in the bathroom with the same stain?" This is the part that I was addressing. As for your remark "Pores tend to be larger and more prominent on white than red." There is probably a lot of variation out there, but around here, the early wood or porous part of red oak normally has four rows of large open pores, while the white has three, which are usually slightly smaller, and of course filled with tyloses, which makes them seem less open.I like to think I am fairly proficient at reading the characteristics of wood, and don't mind mixing woods in a piece, and or a house. Of course each person brings their own taste. Some will insist that the whole house be the same. Personally, I like the individual little flaws in wood, like woodpecker pecks or mineral streaks. It is a shame, that from my area, veneer log buyers won't take walnut because of those pecks, while they will in your area. I like to think that those little sapsuckers are sending me kisses vicariously through the wood, while making it more available than it would be if I was competing for the same wood with veneer buyers.
Opps, pore are usually smaller on white than on red. You are absolutely right, I wrote it backwards. I'll edit my piece.
When properly finished, there is little visible difference between red oak and white oak.
For me, the biggest difference is the open-ness of the grain. Red oak is much more open than white.
But, if a grain filler is used during the finish process, the only difference left is the mild difference in color. And a good finish can take care of that too, particularly if you're going for that darker Arts and Crafts oak look.
but it is also $22 more per sheet.. Well worth the $22! IF you consider red oak will take some time to fill the grain and whatever. Just my opinion though!
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled