Im working on a raised panel cherry island and have a few spots to deal with that need fill on the top. (15x70x1 3/4)
I would like to try using the cherry sawdust as fill. What is the proper suspension that I should put it in. Is it hide glue and are there other options that will look ok?
-zen
Replies
What finish are you planning on using? If you are planning on staining, be careful with a glue/sawdust mixture, as the glue will not take up the stain. You may need to repair the low spot some other way.
If the areas needing filling are dents, try raising them up by spraying them with water and then placing an iron on the area.
Finally, cherry sometimes has defects like pitch pockets that look good when filled with a clear epoxy.
Let us know what your finishing plans are and how large the defects are, and we can give you more specific advice.
The defect areas are fairly minor, I figured I would try the sawdust filler because I havent used it before.
After reinspecting, I probably will loose a bunch of the areas to sanding. I had the blank made because I dont have a strong enough saw to handle that size, and the surface looks good, but the jointer edges have chatter and some tear out near a knot.
The finish is going to be McCloskeys wipe on tung oil.
-zen
Try wet sanding (with 220 or 320 grit) the tung oil for the first two coats; the dust generated from the wet sanding will combine with the oil and fill pores and other small areas (like cracks).
You can't glue (using yellow glue) after oiling, so any glue-based repair needed should be done first. Since you will have a clear finish and relatively small defects, I'd suggest using clear epoxy to fill voids or chips. Wait for the epoxy to cure, then sand to a smooth finish. Then apply oil.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
be careful with a glue/sawdust mixtureFor me NEVER.. Shellac and sand to a slurry and leave it dry.. Sand off..
I agree -- shellac and sawdust is good. But since he's doing an oil finish, might as well do the oil/sanding trick instead.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Will,
"Shellac and sand to a slurry and leave it dry.. Sand off"
When you say this do you mean immediately, while the shellac is wet?
Ive never heard of this before.
-zen
Better is to mix shellac and sawdust into a slurry, and rub it or brush it on (then sand when dry).
Shellac tends to dry to fast to wet sand. Dry sanding shellac isn't pretty, either, but the foam sanding pads from Norton or 3M do a decent job. Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Pond,
Thanks for the help. I have a MFA in Painting, but am green to clear finishes. Ive probably been attacking them for a year. Before that was mostly poly. There are so many options with different techniques it blows my mind, and I havent even looked at HVLP work.
Ive been pleased with Jeff Jewitts site as well.
-zen
You probably could work for 20 years doing finishes and still feel that there is much to learn.
With your art background, you might feel comfortable exploring options like blending oil pigments with clear finishes in order to tint the finish. You can even mix paint tones with shellac, like BIN 1-2-3 primer for some interesting results.
Good luck; finishing is a pain at first and exaggerates your errors more than any other step in woodworking, but once you gain some proficiency it becomes one of the most value added steps.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
what about mixing the sawdust with the new Elmers product that they claim is sandable/stainable ?? I havent used it yet, has anyone else on the board tried to see if it holds up to it's claims ????
SpartyBill,
I have used the new Elmer's "stainable" glue. I actually like its consistency. The Elmer's is a bit thicker than the Titebond III, which I also use a lot.When I need to do complicated glue-ups, I still go to the Titebond III because it has longer open times. But the Elmer's stainable glue does seem to take stain better.I think I'll do an experiment today to see what the results of staining each of these glues looks like. I'll post photos!
Great, I am looking forward to your photos ......
No.. I let it dry and THEN sand off! Hard to sand wet stuff!EDIT:: Or the oil.. Sand a slurry and let dry on top.. Sand as usual...
Edited 10/21/2005 1:47 pm by WillGeorge
EDIT:: Or the oil.. Sand a slurry and let dry on top.. Sand as usual...
Leaving the oil/sawdust slurry to dry before sanding will certainly fill the work, but this route is hugely messy. You'll clog your sandpaper in a few seconds. Use this route only if you have major dinks/voids to fill.
Wiping the slurry before the oil dries is far, far less messy and does a good job filling the pores if you are careful when wiping. At worst you'll have to repeat the process once or twice.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
route is hugely messy.. Well I forgot.. to say as usual..I usually use a card scraper to 'trim' it down and sand if needed.. Sorry.. I'm old and forgets stuff!
Fish,
2 questions, On this top, which is 15x70x1 3/4, the attachment area that I have to work with is about 4-6" wide, and about 65" long. Should I be worried about movement? Can I attach directly or should it have button blocks. The top is new work, the cabinet panels are about 13 years old, but its all cherry.
2- Do you happen to know why some finishers specify to only apply finish in one direction, and is that a policy that should be adhered to.
-zen
If your attachment area is only 6" wide, movement of cherry will be about 0.1" or less for a 7% change in moisture content. You can probably get away without using buttons. To calculate wood movement for cherry, use m=0.0025 for plain sawn and m=0.0015 for quartersawn movement. Total movement will be m*width*change in moisture content (%); or for this example 0.0025*6in*7=0.105 in.
Apply finish in one direction only seems like a personal preference. Finishes like lacquer and shellac will dissolve the underlying coats some when applying, so direction of brushing or wiping becomes irrelevent. When spraying finishes, one usually applies overlapping coats in two directions. Perhaps when brushing on something like poly, keeping the brush strokes in the same orientation (i.e., horizontal versus vertical) will leave parallel brush marks; keeping the brush stroke in the same direction (i.e. left to right) might make a difference if the coat you are applying tends to be thicker at the start of the stroke versus the end of the stroke.
But in reality, I see no real reason to apply in the same direction. I almost always rub or buff out my finishes to remove brush marks, so I never follow this suggestion.
Perhaps you might want to do an experiment and see if it makes any difference for you.
Cheers,
Paul (neither "fish," nor "pondy")Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Paul,
I put on the first coat and did the wet sanding routine.
Some people get obsessed with grain, do you think the wet sanding muddles the grain?
I also thought a hand scraper might work well to get the slurry down into the grain flush, do you think that would be dangerous?
-zen
Wet sanding will not muddle the grain; the filler is a fine slurry of sawdust and oil, and should (and has, in my experience) be neutral in either highlighting or muddling the grain. Wiping the slurry off with a cloth towel diagonally to the grain will work fine. You can use a scraper (even a teflon scraper from the kitchen), but neither is really necessary. If anything, you don't want to be scraping off more wood at this point, else you'll be exposing newly cut and open pores. Now is the time to fill those pores, and to build up a finish.
Wipe dry and let it dry for a day. Look at the surface at a low angle to see if you are getting a glass finish. If you still see pores, repeat the wet sanding routine. Make sure it is a light sanding...Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Wet sanding... fine slurry of sawdust and oil..I usually do this on all my projects.. I find that when you do it you will 'see' hidden glue spots and are much easier to fix while wet sanding.. For small spots I usually just use my old really thin/skinny machinist ruler.. Quality stainless steel, very flexible, and I have never had to do anything to the edge to sharpen it.. Sometimes a 3M pad...
Thank you again... both of you have been very informative.
-zen
Have you ever French polished over this? Please see my additional post with a question about pore-o-pac filler. Thanks
Jay
Paul,
I sanded out the slurry coats and added a new coat of just tung last night. I figure at least another coat. This morning its a bit tacky, but over all it looks really good. I was worried because after I applied, looking in the light it looked peppered with something... Im thinking it might have been tiny bubbles and they popped before the coat set up.
Ive done a rub out of poly with butchers wax and steel wool a few times, but do you have a suggestion for buffing or rubbing this finish? And about how many coats would be safe, if its consistent is that enough. The next will be 4.
-zen
Oil finishes need to be applied in thin coats, wiping them "dry" after an hour or so (before they get too sticky). The finish is a thin film that needs to be built up; while some recipes recommend applying 3 coats, I've found the real luster comes out after 6-7 thin coats. There's an old saying about oil finishes: once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year, and once a year after that. I stop after the once a day for a week with good results (2-3 of those coats will have been wet sanded).
If the surface is still tacky, leave it to dry more before applying the next coat. Sometimes with tung oil (especially in the cooler weather) you may want to wait 48 hours between coats.
Also, if you have bubbles, you are applying too think of a coat. The coat thickness should be less than the diameter of a bubble! I like to take an old (clean) gym sock and ball it up to use as an applicator. I pad on the finish, then let it sit some. If needed, I wipe it dry after an hour. With faster drying finishes, you can buff it some after a few hours to reduce wipe marks.
Your final step depends on how glossy of a finsh you want. Steel wool (I use green or grey 3M pads) can be used for a satin finish; for a glossy finish, burnish the surface with something like a crumpled up grocery bag (note: surface must be fully dry!)
A wax top coat is always nice for an oil finish. Just be sure to wait 3+ days before applying it, giving the oil plenty of time to cure.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Paul,
When you get up to coats 4-8, there is no sanding between, correct?
Thank you again for catering to me.
-zen
Right, no sanding. Maybe a light steel wool buffing, but that isn't critical.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Have you ever French polished over this? No. I have 'tried' French Polishing but... I just do not have the perseverance for it.. I usually just hand rub and wax..
Edited 10/26/2005 9:45 pm by WillGeorge
I believe you had mentioned that with the tung oil, the coats kind of melt into one another.
I finished coat 7 today, and was wondering... because of that behavior, is it ok to tack with Mineral Spirits, or is that risky?
-zen
Actually, a coat of oil doesn't blend in with the underlying layer. Each coat of an oil cures to leave a thin film. Multiple coats are applied to build up these thin layers. When tung or linseed oil cure, the oils are cross-linked in an irreversible chemical reaction. So once a tung oil based finish has cured, you can use spirits to wipe down the surface without damaging the finish.
Additional coats of finishes like shellac and nitrocellulose based lacquer do dissolve the underlying layer(s) of finish. It's one reason why those finishes are much easier to strip off.
To learn more about finishes, get a copy of FWW's "Finishing" by Jeff Jewitt.
Finally, a note about safety when finishing with oils or varnishes. The curing process is a chemical reaction (the formation of those cross-linked bonds); this reaction releases heat. Oily rags can spontaneously combust while the oil cures, especially if they are piled up on another. Treat oily rags as a fire hazard until they are dried!Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
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