Replies

1. 
   jazzdogg | Nov 04, 2005 07:32am | #1

   Hi Yogi,

   I've used analine dyes dissolved in both alcohol and water with good results (though neither were very lightfast over time - lightfastness seems to vary by color), but have yet to experiment with the liquid dyes (a two-ounce bottle cost around $17).

   I have done only rudimentary color mixing, preferring, in most cases, to use them straight from the factory. They both (alcohol and water-borne) require a pre-grain-rasing regimen. I found the alcohol dye evaporated faster than the water, making it a little harder to modulate. That, combined with my preference for sealing the dyed surfaces with shellac, leads me to prefer water-borne dyes (so far, at least).

   There's some good information at Jeff Jewitt's website: http://www.homesteadfinishing.com

   Good luck,

   -Jazzdogg-

   "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Nov 04, 2005 08:51am | #2

   Water based dyes are generally the most light fast of the three, and are also very versatile with the only real defect being the tendency to raise grain.  Colors are clear and don't obscure grain.  Alcohol drys so fast that it is hard to apply without overlaps unless you spray. 

   You probably don't want to mix furniture colors from the three primary colors, in part because the dyes are often not truely the primary color.  There are a host of colors to chose from with quasi-descriptive names.  See the Woodworkers Supply catalog, or visit the http://www.wdlockwood.com site. 

   Dyes can be applied in mulitple coats and can be used to modify the color a bit.  For example a little green tinged dye can tone down a color that is too red.  This works better than mixing from scratch.  Besides the underlying color of the wood itself is also contributing to the final color. 

   You can achieve different affects by partially sealing a base dye color and over coating it with a different color.  Naturally denser wood will be better sealed and let more of the base dye shine through.  (Example:  for mahogany a base of a lemon yellow, sealed with one lb. cut shellac and overcoated with a brown/brown mahogany dye, provides  subtle golden highlights not unlike those in some antiques. )

1. 
   jerrymayfield | Nov 04, 2005 05:19pm | #3

   I agree totally. couldn't ask for a better answer.Regards
   Jerry

2. 
   LarryMartin | Nov 05, 2005 08:35am | #11

   Can you still dye wood after it has been sealed with a 1 pound cut of shellac? I've been trying to use a red dye on maple with fairly standard grain so that there is a "medium" tone of red while preserving and highlighting the grain. The stronger solutions for the red seem to obscure the grain more than I want, while the weaker solutions of red turn out closer to pink. If I seal the maple with a thin cut of shellac will I preserve the grain and still get a brighter shade of red?

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Nov 05, 2005 02:06pm | #12

   Yes, you will still be able to use dye after a one lb. cut "spit coat" of shellac.  But you may need to use two dyes.  Start with your "pink" maple on bare wood, then apply the spit coat and sand the raised grain LIGHTLY.  Then you can apply a top coat that brings it back to a wood tone.  If its still too red, a very light dye with green in it should mellow it right out.  Do check out http://www.wdlockwood.com for an idea about premixed dye colors.  One source that appears to carry the full Lockwood line is Woodworkers Supply though they package it as a house brand J.E. Moser, but with the same list of color names it has to be Lockwood.  Lockwood is the largest maker of wood dyes.  (You can buy a 55 lb. drum of dye power if you want, I think.) 

1. 
   Miami | Nov 06, 2005 04:42am | #14

   Thanks for that Lockwood dyes link - I have a set of TransTints, but some of those Lockwood dyes look great.  I see they have one (very broad) set of water-soluble colors specifically designated as 'fiber-reactive' colors, with no other info.  Know anything about these?  How they differ from the others, whether they are intended for wood (looks like so), etc.?  I couldn't find any data on their site.

   Clay

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Nov 06, 2005 05:42am | #15

   Don't know either, sorry. 

2. 
   Yogi | Nov 04, 2005 06:50pm | #4

   Jazzdog-  Thanks for your thoughts-  Much obliged-

2. 
   BG | Nov 04, 2005 07:38pm | #5

   Yogi,
   I'm anxious to buy the three primary colors (red, yellow, blue) and set up a color wheel of color. I think the mixture is about 1/2 teaspoon to 16 oz. of water...place in tight jars (mayo, peanut butter)and then start to mix additional colors to fill in the chart. I'm eating as much peanut butter as I can stand...it'll be a while...

   http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/tech_dyes.htm#Transtints

1. 
   sapwood | Nov 04, 2005 08:33pm | #6

   I love peanut butter as much as the next person, but......I've found that the plastic bottles that are commonly used to hold soft drinks, tonic water (I get a lot of them in the summer), and bottled water are far more useful. They are easy to clean out and won't break when you drop them. As far as your color wheel is concerned. What a lot of people don't realize is every color wheel will be unique to the specific primaries that are used to create it. For instance if you have a given red and yellow and they are mixed with a cobalt blue and a ultramarine blue, different oranges, purples, and greens will result. I've never seen analine dyes referred to in specific terms as artist colors typically are, nevertheless each manufacturers colors are different and will result in different mixes. So, make carefull notes when you do your mixing and mark your bottled colors appropriatly.If you have never mixed colors to make a color wheel before, I would suggest that you practice first with an easier media. Because you will be using the analine dyes on wood and since diffeent woods will affect the resultant color getting a "feel" for what is happening will be difficult. Instead, first get an inexpensive set of artist tempura paint. Much like milk paint, this is water based and opaque. You can mix it easily and paint a color wheel. Using the tempura you will readily see how different proportions of each primary will give variations of the same "color." After you've gotten a feel for what is happening, then you will be better prepared to handle the analine dyes.Good luck, mastering color isn't straightforward nor is it easy.

1. 
   BG | Nov 04, 2005 09:46pm | #7

   Sapwood,
   ..." and bottled water are far more useful."...I'm fabulously wealthy and had plumbers pipe my house so water is available right out of the faucet...we even have bowls of the stuff in bathrools for washing your feet...just flush....lol.Believe it or not I never thought of recycling water bottles..great idea!

2. 
   LarryMartin | Nov 05, 2005 08:27am | #10

   Rockler carries an "expensive" color wheel chart/dial (about $18) geared to the major artist mixes (burnt umber, sienna, etc.) as well as their impact on different kinds of woods. It seems like a good guide to mixing.

1. 
   sapwood | Nov 05, 2005 11:38pm | #13

   Purchasing a color wheel may be a way to start and if that's what it takes to get you started then go for it. However, that color wheel is only a rough approximation. The colors one gets from mixing are unique to the colors one starts with. Different brands of color will give different results. It would be nice if there were magic answers to color matching, but there aren't. When I've been faced with the task I either take the project to a friend who repairs and refinishes furniture and is therefore very good at color or I drudge it out myself. This usually means about two dozen samples/trials before I know what to do.You also must understand that the color wheel is not really fully applicable to transparant dyes. Because of their transparancy, what we are seeing is reflected light. And light has another color wheel altogether.

2. 
   Yogi | Nov 04, 2005 10:23pm | #8

   I'm not anxious, maybe a little eager-  More like over my head, judging from some of the posts in this thread-  More reading/learning is in order for me, I think, if I am to come to some understanding of the overall subject-  All too often my initial attempts at something new can be characterised as "monkeying around" when I haven't first done my homework- 

   Somewhere I read that the French Impressionists preferred Skippy Creamy, so maybe that's a direction we should consider?  In any event, thanks for your thoughts, and good luck- 

3. 
   LarryMartin | Nov 05, 2005 08:25am | #9

   The TransTint dyes call for a starting mix of one ounce (by weight) of dye powder to 2 quarts of hot water (64 fluid ounces). There are 5 1/2 teaspoons of powder in a 1 ounce bottle. So that would mean 1/2 teaspoon in about 6 ounces of water. That ratio does give a "strong" color. Your ratio of 16 ounces of water would lighten the color somewhat, diluting it about 60% but even that would still result in a fairly "strong" color.

   Edited 11/5/2005 1:30 am ET by LarryMartin

4. 
   mikegagne | Nov 06, 2005 07:54am | #16

   <I'm anxious to buy the three primary colors (red, yellow, blue) and set up a color wheel of color>It may be helpful to not think of your scale as a wheel but rather a ball or globe. The wheel is relative to where you start the color. A sphere holds every color and combination, brighter in the center and darker at the edges. In this way all the colors intersect somewhere which is more of a true representation of color origin than a wheel which only allows for limited mixing of color values. All 4 primaries can touch each other and combine for nuances of color. Is this helpful or too much information? aloha, mike

1. 
   BG | Nov 06, 2005 02:49pm | #17

   Mikegagne,
   I'm not sure about the correct terminology (severely artsy fartsy challanged here), but I have a few Transtint mixtures and I'm tired of trying to guess at which mixture or combination will get me at least close to where I want to be.
   Bottom line, some variation of brown is where I'm going. I don't need to tell you that several other factors besides stain will affect final color. So all I really need is enough of a ball, sphere, wheel that allows me to get the brown I want and warm it, cool it or brighten it...and if I can achieve that, and repeat it, with only 3-4 Transtint colors that'll save me a whole lot of trouble and expense.

1. 
   mikegagne | Nov 06, 2005 09:24pm | #18

   My advice then is to forget the wheel-sphere aspects and play with what you have in small amounts. Accurate recording of your trials will get you a repeatable formula. This is all experimentation until you have experience and of course, then you become the expert. Good luck and have fun. aloha, mike