Just wanted to let you know that BossCrunk is locked out of Knots. He was recently warned about personal attacks, yet he persisted. I also locked out a collection of his aliases. If you notice any of his multiple personalities popping up in the forum, please report it as a violation.
<!—-><!—-> <!—->
Thank you,
<!—-> <!—->
<!—-><!—->Gina Eide <!—->
FineWoodworking.com
Replies
Is a list of aliases available?
Off the top of my head:
Charles, Cstan, Charles Stanford, Oilstone, BossCrunk, ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs...
I am sure there are others but those are what I remember.
I liked him. He was obstinate and never really provided any "proof" to back his assertions, but-as Samson said-he stirred the pot in an interesting direction.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
I've replied to him and him to me a few times and none of those posts were less than friendly. He can be a real curmudgeon, but if we didn't have a few guys like that, this place would be pretty dull!
But, I guess, a recent thread really got out of hand with some of the posts. We're here at the pleasure of FWW and we're to abide by their rules.
T.Z.
Sad to hear it, Gina. I may not have seen the thread where the offense occurred, so I guess it could be warranted for all I know. Charles may be kind of an _____ sometimes, but overall, I like the guy and feel he sometimes stirs the pot in interesting directions.
More generally, I may well be in the minority but I value the soft touch on moderation here at Knots. There are far too many forums where no disagreements or frankness are tolerated. Makes for pretty boring reading. It all comes off as saccharin and phoney. We're adults. A little poking and disagreement keeps it real.
I hope to see Charles again after he serves his time (pays his debt to the Knots society, so to speak).
Best,
Sean
"I hope to see Charles again after he serves his time (pays his debt to the Knots society, so to speak"). Sean
Several years ago I got into a gun-fight with Charles. A few years later I got to like his personality and actually agreed with him on points. Not all mind you but sometimes as he doesn't beat around the bush getting to his point. And if you are thin skinned.. you will not care for him at all.
Charles will never get the call from the Diplomatic Corps And a man that has a taste for southern B-B-Q can't be all bad. So.. I will miss his direct approach... mis-guided missiles.. etc. Again... there are some that may not miss him at all.
But.. Charles is not an idiot with a computer. I have a feeling you will see him sooner than "after he pays his debt to the Knots society, so to speak". I just have a feeling that one day soon a voice will appear from behind a burning bush and if you have been around awhile to get to know the characters around this site.. you will know just who's voice that may very well be.
So.. observe and particularly for lightening strikes when the bolts come from the direction of Memphis.. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
More generally, I may well be in the minority but I value the soft touch on moderation here at Knots. There are far too many forums where no disagreements or frankness are tolerated. Makes for pretty boring reading. It all comes off as saccharin and phoney. We're adults. A little poking and disagreement keeps it real.
I agree but most will not I think... Why not send then to the Calf.. If they get pissed then forbid them!
I love words~
Edited 5/29/2009 5:59 am by WillGeorge
This is too bad.
I think that a there'd be a lot less animosity hereabouts if the default address were changed to ALL instead of that of the participant in who's window one clicks to reply. Having to actively change one's reply to a specific individual rather than speaking to the group, might serve to slap some civility into one's response. A lot of people have rather thin skin here and unfortunately worded posts tend to rub the wrong way when a more careful or positive reading was probably the intention and is interpreted as such by others who were not the addressee. I think it would be more difficult to assume a personal attack if ALL were addressed. I'd still like the option to address to a specific individual, but don't let it be the default.
Though it's highly unlikely that SysOp would seriously consider changing the default reply to All (as opposed to the individual), I want to respond to the idea. I'm guessing that less than 10% of posts here at Knots are, hmmmmmmm.....shall we say "uncivil"? Why would we want to change a very efficient and effective system, which enables any one of us to sit down and with two clicks of the mouse find all responses directly to us? To cut that 10% perhaps in half? I'll gladly put up with those few BS-laden posts (pretty much ignoring them, and their authors).
The only harm I fear is the possibility that truly vicious posts might alienate new or lurking members. SysOp is about as balanced as one could wish, IMHO, in allowing us to voice our opinions, frustrations and irritations yet drawing the line at behavior which violates their quite reasonable (IMHO) User Agreement.
It's been said a dozen times before, but bares repeating: Most of the radically uncivil posts are made simply for the purpose of getting a rise out of the membership. When they are met with deafening silence, the perpetrators fade away as there is nothing feeding the fire.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 5/27/2009 12:26 am by forestgirl
Well said. Thank you.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
There's good common sense in Forestgirl's post. The best response to someone who's trying to grab my attention is simply to refrain from giving it away.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
That is well said.
Anyway, posters with ulterior motives and even a minimal command of the English language can probably direct assaults more effectively at selected individuals by addressing their posts to "All", so changing the system as suggested by Sapwood would be counter-productive.
I anticipate a re-incarnation of "40 Grit" (open coat tough back floor sanding grade)with some pleasure, provided he lays off the personal attacks-which have been many.Philip Marcou
To me, the Knots (and Breaktime) forum is first and foremost a community discussion. I always imagine each thread as a bunch of folk sitting around in a big circle all talking about a particular topic. When any individual speaks, the others give up the floor. Then someone else chimes in, perhaps in direct response to the prior person but more likely their thoughts are more in response to the general direction of the discussion as a whole and not in particular to the preceding. It would be a very peculiar group where each participant is expected to directly respond to their precedent and to do otherwise, they must first inform the group as to their intent. Others here perhaps see Knots differently than I. Perhaps more of a personal dialogue between two or three, with others looking on and interjecting as they wish. But, still, with a direct to/from format. A change to the default address need not preclude from one directing their post to a particular person. All that would be required is to click the TO button and scroll to the individual one desired. This action is simply the reverse of what one must now do to address ALL. But the effect would be to subtly remind people that their response is to everyone. It wouldn't stop some from being the trolls that they aspire to be. But it might be just enough of an incentive to keep someone from trolling after them. I don't know if I've made my point clear. The written word is not my best form of communication.
well said forestgirl!
I think there are those who must just get bored with general communication or sharing of good cheer and at times serious sides of a point. Some folks for one reason or another enjoy challenging other people and that's fine occasionally but gets old in a hurry. Correcting someone when they are wrong or misguided is not always easy but considering their safety could be an issue or that they may mislead less experinced people is of tremendous value and needs to be done. I am glad for those bold enough to do so. When they do this there is usually an air of prefessionalism and well intent you can derive through even emails. I prefer to stay focused on the craft I love. Perhaps that's boring but it is also why freinds gather in places such as this, we al love the subject matter : wood and how to craft it!
I'm might miss his expertise. I'm not going to miss the personal attacks and the "life scenarios" he was fond of making up for people he'd never met. I'm sure he'll be back under a new name but it probably won't take long for his "style" to surface.
I've only "crossed pens" with him a couple of times. I realize now he once felt the need to use two names in the same thread!
I guess we all have our foibles! "We're all bozos on this bus" comes to mind occassionally! LOL
Best of luck; you have what seems like an impossible job to me!
Regards,
Mack
"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
Ah another fan of Firesign theatre!
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
We all want to be a part of this forum otherwise we wouldn’t be here. The blame for the skewed reputation of this forum falls on all of us, we are all to blame even the so called nicer members who at times just sits back and watches as another victim is prayed upon. But this last week I saw a glimmer of hope, one member willing to offer friendship in the middle of a conflict, we can learn a lot from him. So let us not be so smug as to think we are not the problem. I too am at blame but no more then all of you. So ignore or belittle then wonder why when a first time poster acts like he just walked into a lions den.
This forum has a "skewed reputation"??? Among whom and where? Seriously, I'm curious.
I don't mind being prayed upon, but would definitely hate being preyed apon. Kidding. But seriously, I really have not seen any slew of wide eyed newbies getting eviscerated by trolls and no-gooders around here. Can you direct me to any such instances? This seems an exaggeration.
Also, there is no lion's den here. Indeed, newbies are readily helped and given sound advice, cites, and opinons.
But seriously, I really have not seen any slew of wide eyed newbies getting eviscerated by trolls and no-gooders around here. Can you direct me to any such instances? This seems an exaggeration.Samson,I'll chime in on this question you ask, as I have personal experience. Up until 2 years ago, I was teaching classes on weekends in my shop. Several of my attendees were directed, by me, to this forum for Q & A. New woodworkers really soak this stuff up. It was quite unfortunate for me to see how several of MY OWN referrals were treated here. They have moved on to other forum(s), and made it clear of the reason to me.I even posted a thread about it at the time. Knots, as a whole, is considered to be a forum with a high troll population. I generally don't care, as I consider myself to be quite thick skinned (most of the time). One of the trolls who frequents this forum (not Charlie) even got my blood boiling a few months back, and kept my participation to a minimum.I don't think Knot's should ever be moderated to the point where all that is left is a bunch of White Shirts in mighty tighty whities patting each other on the back. I love a good disagreement as much as you do, as long as maintaining a level of decency and class is involved. Sarge likened it to a hockey game. I agree completely. I played hockey at a high level for a very long time. I can't tell you how many fights I had ON THE ICE, but it was a large number. However, after the games, I was quite frequently able to go to the local pub near the rink and have a beer, or 3, or 6 with some of my fellow combatants. Some of the trolls around here only come to stir the pot. They should be shown the door. A contributor with trollish-like tendancies can almost always be controlled by the Knots group without needed further assistance from SysOps.My opinion, worthless as the paper it's written on.Jeff
Sarge likened it to a hockey game. I agree completely.... Jeff
The im-patient fans are pounding the glass now... as the thrill does not lie in the checks.. break-aways.. precision passes but knowing hand to hand combat can break out at any moment. And... if it doesn't.... a fight will just have to break out in the stands or the evening has proven to be a boring waste of time... a few bucks loss for the right to witness.. and the cost of octopus to throw over the glass into the arena when the local lads prevail as we know they will.
Time to go pull off clamps on a glue-up but.. the game will still be on when I get back.. no doubt. And there is little doubt in my mind for sure. ha.. ha...
Sarge..
Edited 5/27/2009 3:05 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
"Knots, as a whole, is considered to be a forum with a high troll population" Those are fighting words - where are the elves and wizards? Troll sat alone on his seat of stone,
and munched and mumbled a bare old bone;
For many a year he had gnawed it it near,
for meat was hard to come by.
Done by! Gum by!
And meat was hard to come by.Up came Tom with his big boots on.
Said he to the Troll:'pray what is yon?
For it looks like the shin o' my uncle Tim,
As should be a-lying in a graveyard.
Caveyard! Paveyard!
This many a year a year has Tim been gone,
And I thought he were lyin' in graveyard.Said Tom: 'I don't see why the likes o' thee
Without axin' leave should go making free
With the shank or the shin of my father's kin;
So hand the old bone over!
Rover! Trover
Though dead he be, it belongs to he;
So hand the old bone over!"Tom's leg is game, since home he came,
And his bootless foot is lasting lame;
But Troll don't care, and he's still there
With the bone he boned from its owner.
Doner! Boner!
Troll's seat is still the same,
and the bone he boned from its owner!
But Troll don't care, and he's still thereWith the bone he boned from its owner.
Methinks you have made a good point.
-nazard
Nazard,
Yep he's still there,
Who knows whats fair,
In this old posting score yard!
Boreyard! Waryard!
TT
TT,
Bravo!
-nazard
Well for one, take a look at message 46873.1, particularly at the last sentence.
<!----><!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
This thread??:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=46873.1
I read the whole thing twice. I have no idea what you think this shows. I see someone asking for info a Leigh jig and getting several useful links and advice.
I don't know I have seen people belittled for asking pretty simple questions, or trying to clarify an answer. I know of some folk who lurk here, but won't ask a question for fear of getting insulted. So they lurk here, and ask questions elsewhere.
If you say so. I must have missed those threads.
That word "pray" shouted out to me too. Just a typo. I agree about the reputation bit. I think this forum has a fine reputation but like all forums must have policing, which has shown up, occasionally. Over the years I have noticed several disagreeables who have been taken off and a few others who seem to be on the fence. One problem is that some of those folks have a lot of experience and give a lot help. When someone tells me off, I probably need it, otherwise, I try to ignore it.
Edited 5/31/2009 9:34 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Edited 5/31/2009 9:36 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Knots just got really boring.
He's the counterpoint that every other forum seems to lack. He challenged the know-it-alls.
Like him or not, his intentions are good: get to work.
I'm going in the basement now.
Matt,
"...challenged the know-it-alls".
Hmmm, don't you mean, "Sneered at knowledgeable and experienced people he took agin' for his own dark reasons"?
Charles does have an "interesting" character and can be entertaining. However, many who recieved a bucket of his chum over their heads were merely cowed and sent packing, never to be seen again. Charles' primary intent and action is to bully without mercy or any consideration of the merits of different viewpoints from his own. He loves to dominate and destroy; and feels uninhibited in doing so here in "harmless" cyberspace.
Nor has he ever offered any truly useful woodworking advice. He is master of stating both the obvious and the hidebound. We have never seen a piece of his nor got any wisdom except in the form of links to old FWW articles by the often old-school woodworkers he himself had taken a shine to, often because they too had hard-and-fast views on woodworking procedures.
Like Samson I would prefer it if we could police Knots ourselves, without an official police-lady having to wield her cyber-truncheon. But Charles is always going to be a bully and, if allowed, will drive away even more would-be participants than he already has. As well as reams of "ordinary" woodworkers, he has thrown his poison on David Charlesworth, ALF from Cornwall and any number of FWW contributors or editors that have great experience, knowledge and ability. You dismiss such folk as know-it-alls if you like; but this is merely cutting off your nose to spite your face.
When I first joined Knots (long ago it seems now) Charles posted a poisonous and gratuitous jibe at some early post I made. After getting poked back, he issued the challenge, "You will be easy, easy, easy", by which he meant that his sneering would soon drive me off Knots. I looked at his historical postings then; and found dozens in which he had indeed poured his nasty on any number of new posters, who usually got hurt & offended then left. This is his motive and intent. He is a true troll.
So, despite a general unease at having Knots policed, I hope the creature can be put back under his wet rock down under the dank bridge and kept there. I can't see him reforming - he seems to have far too much arrogance and hate for humans deep in his black soul.
Lataxe, who has been able to detect good intent from bad since his first beatings in the infant school playground.
I won't take a position about Mr. Crunk- others have made the case for and against him.I would say, as a general point, that the use of multiple personalities on a forum, and more than one identity in a thread is classic troll behavior. Wander too far down that road and you will encounter the Giant Rat of Sumatra (a story for which the world is not yet prepared), or the macabre case of the Grizzly drill press (a story for which Knots is even less prepared)...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Lataxe,
Well said.
I won't miss the man nor his comments. It seems he went out of his way to be abrasive. As much as I detest censorship, it is FWW's forum, and they can do with it what they want. If they determined Crunk's posts were not contributing to discussions at hand, they have the right to pull his posting privileges.
So, let's move on. We've all spent far too much time on this one personality..
Zolton If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
The way I remember the David Charlesworth incident was that Dave showed up here for about 12 hours, posted 3-4 times, had his ruler trick challenged by Charles, and immediately took his ball and went home.....Know-it-all.
Look at the sharpening threads and the lengths we go to defend our purchases. We need the buckets of chum dumped over our heads and deserve the egg thrown in our face because we need, as a group, to make sure that we're producing products.
Charles is a reputable authority that doesn't regurgitate information from other threads, tool reviews, wood working magazines, week long woodworking classes, blogs or test boards. I value his opinion more than most because there's no doubt that he speaks from significant experience. I don't need the pictures to prove that.
Remember that it's the individual that's scornful of the crowd. Every fight he's started has left the target in the majority. That's not too threatening.
Matt, not workingNo representation without taxation
Tuning in now from the other side of the world … I’d like to respond to several posts.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Mike W <!----><!---->
The last review was a departure from this. Not a review at all, even in the loosest of senses. More an impression. …<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I agree. I should not have called it a review. I referred to it this way out of habit. But it was not a review. There was only a limited amount of evaluation. It was just a first look at a new product from a new toolmaker and I thought that others might find this interesting. I’ll say more in a short while.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
…I think his reviews that demonstrate technique within them--the tool in use--are fairly unique anymore (sic). I do not really consider them reviews per se, though. More of an article where there is a featured tool. Much more of value than some mag's blurb or stupid comparative "review."<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Mike, when I write a review I try and place the tool in a context – what does it do, how is it used, how might it help me.. As much as I like just admiring new tools as the next guy – it’s like pouring over brochures for cars, hifi, sports gear, whatever… sometimes we just look at them as if art – I prefer to appreciate the tool in the context of being a tool used. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Dusty wrote:<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I would certainly agree about simply asking a question not being a reason to be banned .Perhaps there was some fine print in the house rules I missed but I saw no ban on types of questions .<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Forestgirl essentially answers this below ..<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
There is an overall assumption in several posts of this thread that BC was suspended for simply asking a question. I am skeptical of this assumption. SysOp's history is that they suspend only when the suspendee repeatedly engages in disparaging or defamatory attacks, attacks that are extremely meanspirited and meant (as mentioned above) to drive another member out of the boards. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
As I understand it, Charles was not banned for the last thread. That was simply the final straw. He had been warned to stop making personal attacks some time back (not just on me – although most appeared to be focused towards me – but generally). Almost immediately Charles began to defy this warning, at first slowly, then increasingly. Just look at his first response to banning - to create yet another identity .. 800 lb gorilla, indeed! And look how quickly he did this. How defiant is that?
<!----> <!---->
Debates are one thing. Even heated debates are understandable since we have a bunch of passionate people here. But harassment is not something that anyone should condone. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Lataxe said as much here ..<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The "he's just asking a question" apology makes me emit a rueful snort. Charles "just asks" the same question endlessly, via his many (very poor) disguises. It is not "just a question" it is an accusation, one that he repeats ad infinitum ad naseum no matter how much information Derek lays before us about where he gets the tools, which ones are given and the nature of his intent in making the reviews.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----><!---->
Adam wrote ..<!----><!---->
KNOTS is not a social networking site. ….. <!----><!---->
I must respectfully disagree, Adam. Knots, like many other forums (woodworking or not) is a club, a cyber club, where members meet and chat, share a yarn, learn something new, offer what they can, or just absorb from others. <!----><!---->
We may come here with different priorities. Some like talking woodworking, others like doing woodworking. Some come to learn how to tune their tools, some come to learn techniques of shaping wood. The list is endless … <!----><!---->
Adam added …KNOTS is supposed to be about woodworking. We need to encourage participation, especially from pros, industry folks, manufacturers (like Andrew Lunn for example) or KNOTS will continue to be the troll haven it has become. <!----><!---->
So how would you go about achieving this? <!----><!---->
One way I see is to offer glimpses of the work that others do. <!----><!---->
Adam ended … I think we may have hung the wrong man here. I see no tears shed for a young businessman making a great product. Andrew was treated very roughly here. KNOTS should be about inclusion. It's a place to discuss the details and up to the minute commentary publishers can't provide in print.<!----><!---->
I was hoping to find a way to create a little closure for all on That Thread. I have exchanged a few emails with Andrew since our last public exchange. We are at peace. I was distressed that Andrew misunderstood what the discussion was about and reacted as he did. He is a fine craftsman, a brave businessman, and I think he deserved to come out better than he did in that thread. He did not do himself any favours with his responses, but I am sure that he would answer differently if he had his time over. I want to emphasise he is one of the Good Guys and I do hope that he will participate in future discussions. I think there is much we can learn from him. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
At the end of the day, this thread is as much about understanding the motives of one forum member, Charles Stanford (if that is his name), as it is about defining a moral code for Knots. I do not believe that any here wish to be second-guessing whether a moderator will accept or reject their posts. At the same time we simply cannot condone a forum that turns a blind eye to feeding frenzies and harassment.
<!----><!---->
Regards from <!----><!----><!---->Perth<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Derek<!----><!---->
Edited 5/27/2009 4:18 pm ET by derekcohen
Matt,
Well, I suppose our diametrically opposed views of Charles show just how and why disagreements like this one can't be resolved sometimes. You describe Charles thus:
"Charles is a reputable authority ....."
The only reputation he has ever demonstrated is the one that's got him on the wrong side of the moderator. He has provided no evidence of any convincing kind that he works wood at all. No one knows who he is or what he produces, if anything. A man who posts as several different atavars in the way that Charles does can hardly be trusted concerning his (often boastful) claims concerning...anything. He is far from credible.
"....that doesn't regurgitate information from other threads, tool reviews, wood working magazines, week long woodworking classes, blogs or test boards....."
Charles points to other people's articles more than anyone else, often with huge lists of links. His own advice is, shall we say, somewhat shallow. But I really would like to be shown otherwise. Could you point at a few of his posts that might be useful to this woodworker, always willing to learn? I really can't recall any.
".....I value his opinion more than most because there's no doubt that he speaks from significant experience. I don't need the pictures to prove that".
Well, what does cause you to have "no doubt"? Do you know him to be a woodworker of some ability or repute (that is, have you seen his work or publications)? And what particular opinions do you value? A claim to "significant experience" requires evidence, not just a co-incidence with one or three of your own opinions about things.
And what on earth do you value of his opinions, other than that people he takes agin should be hounded and villified for sport? Again, if you could provide a list of his useful posts I will certainly read them and gratefully take that wisdom.
***
But we will never agree, will we? You are a Boss-fan; I prefer Derek, David Charlesworth and a host of other experienced, knowledgeable and sociable people (the folk you dismiss as know-alls). The difference is that I can point to evidence to support my opinion that the "know-alls" at least know (and freely give) genuine and useful knowledge; whereas you have nothing but an anonymous poster writing mostly bile which somehow clicks your switch.
Lataxe, who at least knows a bad intent when he sees one.
He tends to get involved in threads regarding sharpening. The number of responses in those threads exceed 50 every time. All opinions and suggestions are very specific to the way each person works, which is always different. The beginner is left with no clear direction because they have 50 interpretations or derivatives of ways they've read, watched or were taught. Charles abrasively tells the person to not get hung up on the specifics, pick one, and stick to it. I agree with that. There are probably 100 examples of this.
Do you really need concrete proof of his skill level? who cares? I'll bet even money he's in the top 3% of the posters here in skill level, and that's safe. The man does not write in a regurgitating fashion. He knows what he's talking about.
He uses different names, yes. But he doesn't try to hide himself. 800lbgorilla? come on, you know who he is before he writes three scathing paragraphs. I knew Oilstone was him before I read a single sentence. He's not hiding. He's not presenting different personas. He's not supporting himself.
EDIT: people who regurgitate information preface statements with things like 'i think', 'IMHO', 'if it were me', 'maybe', or like Barack Obama 'it's my understanding'. They aren't definitive. http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=45825.8 (2 minutes of searching)
No representation without taxation
Edited 5/27/2009 9:09 pm ET by MattInPA
Matt,I had a thought about Boss after I wrote the last message... the you go ahead and bring it up in this message:"Do you really need concrete proof of his skill level? who cares?"This is in many ways the problem with Boss. He demanded this type of information from Derek. Over and over he wants Derek to clarify what his relationship with LV was, and every time Derek would give information Boss would demand more or other. Yes when pressed to give information on his own skill he brushed it off. This is the double standard that Boss posted by.Multiple aliases is just lame. They serve no purpose than to stir things up. Regardless if you can see through his multiple aliases, many people can't. (I had no idea he was also Oilstone.) Boss is either a skilled liar, or he's an arrogant jerk; in either case I don't think he's a dummy. He does this for fun. If this were my home I would have asked him to leave ages ago. It is a shame though, I think he could add a lot to the forum.
What is really sad, is that in the end, Chuckie is getting a huge kick out of the fact that this thread has reached so many posts.He's gone. Adios.Next case....
The way I remember the David Charlesworth incident was that Dave showed up here for about 12 hours, posted 3-4 times, had his ruler trick challenged by Charles, and immediately took his ball and went home.....Know-it-all.
Actually the ruler trick was challenged by Richard Jones. Boss just made snide comments on the side and debated somewhat civily with Derek... If anything David just comes off as a bit of a salesman.
...because we need, as a group, to make sure that we're producing products.
This is Charles' battle cry. While I don't dissagree, it's a pretty limited view of woodworking. As a hobbiest, what I produce is limited by the time I have in the shop. I enjoy being in my shop, I enjoy making both simple and complex things, and I enjoy talking about woodworking.
Charles often made good points, too bad you had to deal with his garbage to get to them.
I have to quibble with you. The content of his posts may provide enough info to judge him an authority as you do, but he isn't reputable. No one knows him or his work so that he is without repute - at least as far as woodworking - and that's the basis for many of his critics here.
Is "reputable authority" one of those memes?
I personally like having Charles or someone like him around to get banned by the Sysop as long as s/he starts a thread to announce it. Thoughtless acquiescence to troll like behavior and acts of censorship are dangerous.
Eric
Hi Eric ,
I have heard this thinking before here on Knots , , ,
If know one knows him or his work how could he be an authority ? or how about this question I will ask , is an expert only an expert after he is famous or his work is known or he is published ? Or was he an expert already .
That seems to be the criteria you use to determine an individuals ability , at least in this case .You may be limiting your circle of knowledge sources .
What exactly is your definition of an authority ?
Attacking in a personal way is way wrong always
regards dusty, maybe you know my work maybe you don't it still is what it is
"---his intentions are good---"
I'm going to have to disagree with you wholeheartedly on that statement!! IMHO many of his posts are mean spirited and that is not a "good" thing.
The first time I crossed him (or he crossed me) he responded to some guy who just bought a new Grizzly band saw. He was happy with his purchase and was sharing his happiness with the forum. Charles tells him and everybody else that "all Grizzly stuff is junk". What is the value or "good intention" there? I replied to him (it was just before Christmas) that I hoped Santa put a lump of coal in his stocking for his "spreading of the joy". We were off into it!
I think the guy values his own opinion way too much and says things just to make people feel bad. I see very little "good" in the intention of most (not all) of his posts.
There are lots of posters here that really know their stuff and will share willingly and challenge when required WITHOUT resorting to personal attacks and having to hide behind a number of different names.
I, for one, will not miss his posts for as long as it takes him to come up with another name. But then again, that's just me.
Regards,
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
his intention is to get you to stop worrying about wasting time worrying about brand and to get something then get to work. That's good in my opinion.No representation without taxation
"Grizzly is junk" does not equal "get something and get to work" in the English language that I use. I guess I need to read between the lines----or something.
Regards,
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
How is asking Derek Cohen about the tools he receives for free to review a 'personal attack?'
The details of this arrangement are exactly the information the participants on your forum need, and deserve.
I'll grant it's probably not a comfortable question to be asked, but it is far from a personal attack.
The problem with Derek's arrangement is that he also 'reviews' competitors' products (those not provided by Lee Valley with whom the apparently cozy deal exists).
Get it?
Edited 5/27/2009 6:39 am ET by 800LBGorilla
Hi Charles.
Hi.
But Charles, he has answered.
Still, even if only for a brief time, nice to see you find another crack in the wall.
Mike
P.S. the new moniker implies a certain ability to force, to dominate. As this moniker may not last long, perhaps the next one can be 98LbWeakling...
Mike,
My understanding of the 800# gorilla metaphor has less to with its strength and intimidation, but rather the difficulty in simply ignoring the beast. As your and another poster's replies have illustrated.
At the risk of being identified as yet another of Charles' (or Mel's) alter egos, I'll just posit that if I were a well meaning, amateur physician and was posting gratuitous reviews of medications and medical equipment while being rewarded by the mfrs of some of them, what--no, on second thought, I'd best not . I don't have a dog in this fight.
Ray
Ah, Ray, what better thing do I have to do at the then 4 am or so than feed Charles whilst drinking coffee, getting ready for the day? My image of the new moniker was of a blustering gorilla, standing upright, doing the little charge, fists upon the ground in their attempt to intimidate. My suggestion for the next moniker was based upon how I view Charle's effectiveness in blustery intimidation.
Like I said in another thread, I like Charles. I believe he has value to this community. Do I believe he goes about it properly all the time? Nope. Do I think he could be of more value if he didn't hammer on the same message to Derek? Yep.
Derek and doctors. Interesting comparison. I think most doctors below the age of 50 are simply outlets for the drug companies to foist their wares on the public.
It is difficult for me to view Derek's reviews in any vein other than techniques of using the subject tools. Because I know of Derek's relationship--it has rather been illucidated upon in the forums--I have no trouble in taking from the reviews what I will.
Whether the late night infomercials or the prime-time 'mercials, I cannot remember the last time I felt the urge to go and buy the subject of them--then or down the road. Likewise, whether Derek's, a mag's, or another individual's review, I do not believe I have ever bought a tool because of them. Nor will I.
(In full disclosure, I have bought a couple books in the past year because of a well-known professional person here who delights in antagonizing me. It was an utterly worthless book to me. To balance out that, a poster, an avid amateur on another forum in a similar thread, suggested an alternative book to the former. What a nice buy that was.)
The last review was a departure from this. Not a review at all, even in the loosest of senses. More an impression. However, because they do not influence my purchasing, I do not really care.
I cannot imagine people being swayed in what can be seen as a major tool purchase because of Derek's or another's review (regardless of what one calls these reviews). As goes reviews in general, I much prefered Alf's anyway. She was a major forum sharer of techniques regardless of the tool, a class person to me.
Well, tis now about 5:30 am...time to head to work.
Take care, Mike
Edited 5/27/2009 8:23 am by mwenz
<"I think most doctors below the age of 50 are simply outlets for the drug companies to foist their wares on the public.">One of your less profound thoughts.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Wasn't going for profound.
I have been a testing lab for many drugs over the years. As well as doctor incompetence. Reading my chart notes from various doctors over the years would be funny if it wasn't serious.
I have been nearly killed three times due to vastly wrong anesthetic use whilst on the table. I have had drugs prescribed that I had known problems with--and was noted in the chart. Mere mention of the fact has made several of those doctors angry. How dare I call into question their competance. Never have been offered a drug that does me ill by an older doctor.
The list of incompetence at the hand of generally younger doctors goes on. Not that older ones were immune when it comes to scripts. Funny that the drugs most often written on the scripts for the last 20 years were the same names as the note pads, calendars and other advertising medias present in the exam rooms.
Am I against all younger doctors? Of course not. My present doctor is a wonderful doctor of probably 30 something. But, if I were to draw a loose parallel, I do not simply take her word for a drug anymore than a reviewer's recommendation for a tool.
Take care, Mike
Mike,If you weren't aiming for profound, then you have succeeded.With all due respect to your personal, unfortunate and anecdotal experience, you are drawing the wrong conclusion from your experiences. Dividing the good from the bad of a group by any arbitrary factor is more emotional than logical. I could as easily construct a similar fallacy:Based upon my experiences, _______ cops are less intelligent than other cops. You can fill in the statement with the group of your choice- female, city, or perhaps ethnic origin... it's still a mindless exercise that says much more about the speaker than the spoken about.Since I am old enough not to be included in your blanket statement, I would only observe that by the time a physician is 10 or more years out of medical school (mid to late 30s), they are both experienced and up to date. In addition, their character won't change and their practice style is pretty much set. Further changes are incremental, and not always for the better.If you have health issues and need good physicians, there are a number of good ways to sort out the better ones (board certification and asking a nurse being among the best). At the time of surgery or a procedure, having a capable family member or friend as an advocate is especially important. Your approach is unlikely to achieve the end you desire, and may in the end be self defeating.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Friends:Regardless of Charles and his personality multiples (disorders?), it is easy to forget that KNOTS is not here as a community for just those who can pass the endurance tests that various obnoxious participants may set for them. What others have said is simply true: many people with much to offer simply go away rather than fight back. Frankly, I'd rather hear what those stilled voices might have said than further relish the outbursts of various resident curmudgeons--not to say jerks.I really like KNOTS and enjoy most of the regulars. On those days when I am working on the same chain gang as my computer, I check in more than once -- kind of like a trip to the water cooler that does not exist in my virtual office. However, in recent months my enthusiasm has been dampened.Joe
Hey Joe here's something to look at during your water break at the computer. I get the same sense now and then when I read so many threads with no woodworking value. Then a good one comes along and its fun again.
photo: I think it was a piece made by one of the guys at Irion. Not sure. Its nice piece and the wood makes it stand proud.
later
Now that is a true thing of beauty. Thanks for the look.Joe
>Not a review at all, even in the loosest of senses. More an impression.<Thank you for saying that.
I do not think that review was well-written or even logical in many places.I have three 14 ppi crosscut-filed backsaws of the style and size of the saw that Derek reviewed. I have been woodworking since the early 1980s. I already have all the tools I will ever need to work wood for the rest of my life. I learned to sharpen saws from Tom Law's video, practice, and in particular, Pete Taran's website, http://www.vintagesaws.com Most of the stuff I know about these types of saws comes from using them and Pete Taran's website. I have also learned a few things from your posts on Knots. I have the first 200 issues of FWW, and there are three articles on saw sharpening, if I'm not mistaken, but my opinion is that the information on Taran's website is better presented and more thorough. My opinion is that the first article in the FWW body of work is the best one.I didn't think Derek's review was very well written and it didn't make full sense to me in several places. Enough said. After that I got too vitriolic and wrapped up in the argument which I later thought was silly.FWIW, I hope the 800-lb gorilla stays around - I think his posts add a good perspective.
Edited 5/27/2009 10:30 am by EdHarrison
How is asking Derek Cohen about the tools he receives for free to review a 'personal attack?'
Uh, asking is one thing but demanding is quite another.
The details of this arrangement are exactly the information the participants on your forum need, and deserve.
Why?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 5/27/2009 7:31 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
I agree in this instance. I don't think asking Derek to reveal where the tools come from is a "gotcha" question. I think it's a simple question. He's got a simple answer, and he should write it at the bottom of every tool review. However disrespectfully asked, this is on topic and helpful for future readers. Banning someone for asking a question like this just fuels the conspiracy theorists campfires. We might as well get the Secret Service to escort out the mad man asking the President when the meteor is going to hit, bundling him onto the unmarked black helicopter. Smart people believe all tool reviews are fraud. There are plenty of reasons to ban Charles. If this is the reason (and I'm not sure it is), we're doing ourselves no favors.Adam
Of course you're right. I suppose that there is a *small* but still reasonably decent number of people who would dismiss the reviews out of hand based on the receipt of a free tool in what appears to be a t*it-for-tat arrangement.
I think a Robert Parker type model is called for ('twould spoil the fun though), although some of his associates' arrangments have recently been called into question.
Edited 5/27/2009 8:49 am ET by 800LBGorilla
Adam and All ,
I would certainly agree about simply asking a question not being a reason to be banned .Perhaps there was some fine print in the house rules I missed but I saw no ban on types of questions .Besides it is possible that all reviews are not perfectly above board , so maybe the question was a good one that deserves an honest answer , silly me .
Personally I think there are so many personalities and types on this forum that it would be rather dull if no vastly opinionated primates ever roared here , kind of like going to a hockey game , we know what the most exciting parts are .
The thin skinned who get offended then rant only give more power to Bigfoot.
regards dusty
Dusty,
"The thin skinned who get offended then rant only give more power to Bigfoot".
Well, one should not feed the trolls; but it is also bad form to cross to the other side of the cyber-highway when one sees a troll dining on an innocent victim.
And what about the normal-skinned who get badly-bruised by the monkeyman; then offended, then go away? As Joe mentions, I feel these folk might have a lot more to offer our virtual society than does a bossy crank.
The "he's just asking a question" apology makes me emit a rueful snort. Charles "just asks" the same question endlessly, via his many (very poor) disguises. It is not "just a question" it is an accusation, one that he repeats ad infinitum ad naseum no matter how much information Derek lays before us about where he gets the tools, which ones are given and the nature of his intent in making the reviews.
Are the Charlie-apologists suggesting that anyone, anywhere has bought a tool because of a Derek-review and found the tool lacking, other than he describes or somehow in a state to cause them to feel "betrayal" (as one muttering conspiracy theorist put it)? Get real!
Derek does good to those who are interested in tools. They help one understand the qualities of tools already on one's potential-buy list; or reveal tools for consideration, hitherto unknown. Show me, if you will, who he has harmed and how - putting aside muttering conspiracy theorists, who seem to feel not just "betrayed" but rather gleeful that they have found a whipping-boy.
Lataxe, feeling mild disgust that people are prepared to tolerate cruel and unjust bullying just because they hold a view similar to one held by the bully.
Hi David,
Being the conflicted individual that I am, my preference is for Charles to begin redirecting his ire into more productive discussions. He can still be the curmudgeon he is all the while actually giving aid to those who come seeking it.
I for one do not enjoy people being belittled and worse. I also do not desire for one such as Charles to so change his manner as to loose fully his curmudgeous self. There is another here who has called me a liar, a fraud and worse on this very forum. He does, however, also share knowledge and his experience. He too is a bit intolerant of differing views. For both Charles and this person, it would be my desire to leave the personal attack out of the curmudgeonly replies.
As to Derek? I think his reviews that demonstrate technique within them--the tool in use--are fairly unique anymore. I do not really consider them reviews per se, though. More of an article where there is a featured tool. Much more of value than some mag's blurb or stupid comparative "review."
See, conflicted.
Take care, Mike
feeling mild disgust that people are prepared to tolerate cruel and unjust bullying just because they hold a view similar to one held by the bully.
Just for the record, I don't agree with Charles' assaults on Derek's integrity. But I also don't think Charles is particularly cruel or unjust.
As for scaring away lurking fragile flowers, I guess I'm more skeptical than you than they have much of value to add. In fact, I think their fragility leads to a lowest common donominator where disagreements are taboo, which inevitably lowers the value of the overall exchange.
"As for scaring away lurking fragile flowers, I guess I'm more skeptical than you than they have much of value to add. In fact, I think their fragility leads to a lowest common donominator where disagreements are taboo, which inevitably lowers the value of the overall exchange. "Samson, it's not that people are scared away by bullies. It's that a lot of folks just don't want to participate in what feels like an elementary school playground ranking contest. I was involved in a thread about something a while back, and was met with several posts by someone (not using their real name, of course) whose intent was to challenge me with snideness and sarcasm, not to offer a legitimate countering view. I ignored it just fine - no fragile flower here - but knowing that I have to wade through these kinds of responses turns me off to asking questions here. It just reflects badly on the whole forum, and really has nothing to do with bruising of egos. Carlos
I don't intend to be a champion for incivility and rudeness. But one man's rudeness may be another's frankness. One person may tend to express themselves with sarcasm or what they think of as playful teasing, and the other may think these serious affronts. Do I doubt there are jerks among us? Nope. This is a cross section of the real world, and jerks exist in the real world.
You say with one breath that you ignored the person you found offensive just fine and then in the next say that it turned you off from participating. Well, which is it? I think if it turned you off, you did not successfully ignore it. If you won't participate for the 98% of good discussion, and opt out because of the 2% occassional annoyance, that's kind of disappointing.
Because different people have different tolerances for offense, once you start regulating you tend to move toward the lowest common denominator - the thinnest egg shell sets the standard.
Samson & All ,
What you say is very true about the forum members being a cross section from the real world .
And in the real world not everyone is always nice , typically heroes don't come out of the woodwork (no pun intended) to save victims of verbal toe jamm.
Whether we support and condone poor behaviors or not , they will still happen.
How many have left feeling abused ?
How many members are there ?
How many left for other reasons ?
What do the numbers look like , to me a low one .
regards dusty
The ironic thing-to me, anyway-is that this subject has created a 41-post thread. If I got kicked off, no one would even notice or say boo.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
BOO! :)Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
boo
Time for me to chip in on this discussion. One of my first questions on Knots received a rather impolite reply from BossCrunk.My reaction was "oh, him". Nevertheless it was offputting for a short time. However I've faced bullies in meatspace as well as cyberspace. Simply ignoring them usually works.However I have been rather disgusted by some of the posts about Derek Cohen and Andy Lunn to mention the 2 recent bullying threads. There is a difference between asking a question and stretching an attack over a large number of posts.I disagree with censorship. In Malta in the 80's I have seen it used as an instrument to stifle dissent. However forum moderation is not censorship. It serves to improve the signal to noise ratio and and keep the discussions polite. I have seen - and left - fora which had degenerated into mud-slinging and name-calling sessions. It's not a new phenomenon. It predates the Internet, back to the times when you dialled in to a Bulletin Board using your DOS computer and a 1200 baud modem. The moderated boards survived. I hope that this forum survives too and have to congratulate Gina on naking a tough decision.I don't think that the size of the numbers matters. It may be small now but problems should be nipped in the bud.
Samson:You have a good point, but I'm not refraining from participating because of a bruised ego or the insults per se. It's tedious to watch what I think is a good comment or reasonable question on my part get challenged with sarcasm and rudeness. I can tell the difference between a legitimate challenge or disagreement with me and someone pulling a power trip and baiting me. Yes, I agree that it's sometimes hard to accurately read one's intent through a few lines of text, but it gets pretty clear when it gets personal. I have a couple of older teenagers at home and have a keen sense about these things :) and don't wish to expose myself to it any more than is necessary.That said, I like reading Knots very selectively to get info. I usually find individuals to ask questions of, though, rather than have to slog through baiting. I really think that people who opt not to participate here feel the same, rather than have hurt feelings. By the way, I don't have any opinion about moderation here - if it was left totally unmoderated and turned into a mess, well, that's what people want, and the ratio of signal to noise would go way down. If it was moderated more, and became stiff and uninteresting, then that might drive people away, too. It is what it is, and I'm not seeking to change it, just logging my responses to some of the (IMO) immature antics here. Carlos
Samson:There's the rub. You doubt that the frailer flowers have much to offer, but you'll never know. In my experience running a a completely unrelated forum on military history, the people who are driven off by trolls often have a great deal to offer. Furthermore, they are not all frailer flowers. Many just have better ways to spend their leisure time.I ask you directly, do you think that people come here for blood sports, or to talk about woodworking?Joe
Yeah, blood sports, of course. Give me a break.
As I think about, I suppose I could whine that your question was aggressive and offensive. It caused me discomfort and annoyance. I guess you'll be banned now.
Edited 5/28/2009 8:27 am ET by Samson
"As I think about, I suppose I could whine that your question was aggressive and offensive. It caused me discomfort and annoyance."
Sean,
I think you're a good guy. But if you honestly can't tell the difference in tone between Joe's question and the bile that would sometimes (not always, mind you, but not rarely, either) spew forth from Charles's poison pen, then, frankly, the problem is with you.
There's a line. It's a fuzzy, ill-defined line, but it's there. Lots of people cross it. I've undoubtedly crossed it many times myself. But crossing the line is not what gets you kicked out of the club. What gets you kicked out is baiting; that is, repeatedly, knowingly and intentionally crossing the line even after you've been warned that it's unacceptable.
-Steve
Really, Steve? You think Joe's suggestion that he thinks I like fighting and arguing (blood sport) is a fair and unoffensive question?
And, yep, I can tell the difference between fair questions and "bile." But so can everyone else, and unfortunately we all draw lines in different places. Once you start kicking people out for crossing the "line," it begs the question of where exactly the line is. If you don't know (and you never really do in advance because it's all subjective), it chills participation and the quality of the discussions through self-censorship.
You will surely argue that some things are sooooo over the line that everyone would agree that the line has been crossed. Perhaps - if I lit into a expletive ladden personal atack on you, for example, but short of that, there are better ways to deal with rough edged individuals. Frankly, I think we can all find our way to deal with these people without counting on mom or the teacher to protect us.
Sean - who apparently has a problem (I'll ignore the personal attack, but next time, you might be banned).
"You think Joe's suggestion that he thinks I like fighting and arguing (blood sport) is a fair and unoffensive question?"
Really, Sean. That's not what he said, and you know it.
"Once you start kicking people out for crossing the 'line'..."
As I explicitly said, that's not what gets people kicked out.
"...it begs the question of where exactly the line is."
Which is why there is a moderator--to let you know where the community's "average line" is. It's the moderator's job to warn people that they're crossing the line. Which is exactly what happened. And yet, the person in question continued to cross the line. Which is why he got kicked out. It's all very simple, all very logical, and as replete with "due process" as it could possibly be.
"Frankly, I think we can all find our way to deal with these people without counting on mom or the teacher to protect us."
For the most part, that's true. And, in fact, that's exactly what happens most of the time. It's just like society in the large: Most people are reasonable and decent players. But not everyone. That's why we have laws and police and courts. Anarchy is a fine system as long as everyone plays nicely, but it fails miserably when people start to get too selfish.
-Steve
At base I just don't think laws and police and courts need to come into all our human interactions. Do you call the police when someone swipes your apple out of the regrigerator at work? File a lawsuit when someone cuts you off in traffic?
At any rate, I'm tired of being cast as the champion of incivility, when all I intend is to be the champion of liberty and self-reliance.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Are you purposefully quoting me out of context?
This is what I said:
"For the most part, that's true. And, in fact, that's exactly what happens most of the time. It's just like society in the large: Most people are reasonable and decent players. But not everyone. That's why we have laws and police and courts."
And you reply with:
"Do you call the police when someone swipes your apple out of the regrigerator at work?"
Give me a break.
For the record, the only time I've called the police, other than to report traffic accidents and the like, was when my house was burglarized, and some cash and my wife's jewelry box was stolen from the our bedroom. Was I overreacting?
-Steve
Steve, the clear meaning of this sentence:
"For the most part, that's true. And, in fact, that's exactly what happens most of the time. It's just like society in the large: Most people are reasonable and decent players. But not everyone. That's why we have laws and police and courts."
is that "sometimes we need the authorites to step in" - right? Like now with Charles, right? And presumably with others in the future that receive warnings and are seen as not having heeded them? What am I misreading or quoting out of context?
"What am I misreading or quoting out of context?"
I mentioned the possibility of sometimes involving the police. You took that statement and placed it into the context of the "crime" of stealing an apple from the refrigerator, a context that is obviously inappropriate to the statement to anyone with basic social skills, such as yourself.
-Steve
Steve,
I think you took me a tad too literally. My point was only that impertinence on an internet hobby forum is more analogous to those things in the real world that while annoying, do not rise to the level where authorities are needed. Geez.
Sean,
Steve is an old friend. He loves to argue. I hope you don't let this discussion cause hard feelings.Instead, why don't we do something positive to get Charles officially reinstated? There are lots of approaches. One is a business approach. What is in the best interest of Taunton keeping customers and making money? Another is: let's reason about this? We could give a whole slew of postings that are much more negative and taunting and baiting and personal than anything that Charles has done. That is fairly easy to do. Any thoughts? Do you think it is worth doing? Or do you suggest we just let it ride, since Charles is still here, and everyone knows it, and all the Police Action did was to make the folks who did it not look very effective?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, very little that can happen here would ever cause me to have hard feelings towards someone. I think that's the base of my "problem." I don't take this place that seriously, and am often surprised when others do. I may express annoyance or exasperation in the moment, but nothing lasting. The only people I've blocked are annoying idiots with nothing to offer. If someone has interesting thoughts, experience, or knowledge, I'm always happy to see them here even if they call me names or tell me I'm pathetic, misguided, and stupid. Steve's a smart fellow. I find plenty of value there. I'm a little worried that I couldn't seem to make such a smart fellow understand me. I thought I was a better communicator than that.
As for Charles. I leave it to Gina and Taunton. I kinda think it would take some offended parties to tell the DA that they have had second thoughts about asking for prosecution. I have plenty of thoughts though, and only a small fraction ever turn out to be worth a damn.
Sean,
Glad to hear that you don't take offense or hold a grudge. That is a great way to stay sane and to stay centered and happy. I understand that you don't want to get involved in getting Charles back. When you say "offended party" might have an effect, I wonder..... Was anyone offended? If so, did they report it to Gina? Hmmmmmmmm. Oh well, let's not dwell on something that does not interest you.
Enjoy your kids and your woodwork.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Any thoughts? Do you think it is worth doing? Or do you suggest we just let it ride, since Charles is still here, and everyone knows it, and all the Police Action did was to make the folks who did it not look very effective?"
Mel - If the SysOp chooses to, she can certainly block Charles out permanently unless he goes to extraordinary and expensive lengths to go around the block - it would require several ISP accounts that all have different IP addresses. Whether she chooses to do that sort of block or not, I don't know.
What I will say, though, is that there's a large diffeence between disagreeing and being disagreeable. My thought is that someone can easily contribute without being the latter intentionally. I'm not one to be described as lacking strong opinions, but I don't find it necessary to taunt, insult, or otherwise denigrate someone else for not sharing my views.
To me anyway, that's a pretty easy-to-meet standard that doesn't censor almost any disagreement, and I can't imagine why Taunton would find it necessary to put up with an angry personality just for the knowledge that one person might have. There's too much expertise out there - anyone can be replaced.
David,
I have read most of Charles' posts. I don't find them offensive. But then again, I don't take offense very easily. I have better things to do. Would you like to see a number of really offensive posts on Knots, in which folks called other people names, and got nasty and personal, in which people baited another, etc? They are not hard to find. FAR WORSE than anything Charles did. Why are those folks gone? However, I don't really want to continue this. I would rather get back to the shop, which is where I am going.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Sean,
If you want to see what completely unmoderated discussions are like, just pick a random alt.* USENET newsgroup and start reading. Many of them are perfectly reasonable. Many of them are complete basket cases. The problem is that it takes very little to trigger the meltdown of a reasonable discussion into a basket case, and once that's happened, it's all but impossible to get it back.
Taunton can't leave these forums completely unmoderated, because their name, and thus their reputation, is attached to them. Any kind of moderation action is always a judgment call, and can therefore be questioned. But once you put someone in a position of authority, that authority has to be respected, or else it all falls apart. In baseball, the umpire is always right, even when he's obviously wrong. That's a simple rule, and one that isn't applicable to all circumstances (I wouldn't want to apply it in life-or-death situations), but it's certainly workable for, as you call it, a "hobby forum."
For about ten years, I volunteered my time as a moderator on a series of computer programming-related discussion forums. It was a big group, with several hundred messages posted each day, and about 30 moderators altogether. In all those years, I can recall only two instances where someone had to be kicked out. I was personally involved in one of those cases, in which the person in question (who happened to be a university math professor, in fact) became completely unhinged and verbally abusive to just about everyone.
Overall during that time, I found myself having to delete maybe four or five messages a year. Most of the time, it was for legal stuff (e.g., public posting of information subject to non-disclosure) or "poster stupidity" (like public posting of home address or telephone number in a message that was clearly intended to be a private email). Personal attacks and the like were mostly left alone, unless they rose to the level of seriously distracting the conversations. In ten years, I doubt that I deleted more than three or four messages of that kind.
The point of all of this is that in most discussion groups, moderation is rarely required. When a moderator does make the decision, it is, as I said, always a judgment call. And even after you've made the call, you're never really sure whether or not it was the right call. But you have to live with your decision, and you have to accept that it was your decision to make and that you made it. What the "good citizens" of the community have to accept is that that authority exists and will be exercised when deemed necessary. That doesn't mean that you have to agree with the decisions, only that you have to accept that they will occur, and that they are up to the moderator(s).
-Steve
Thanks for the detail. I am not in denial or refusing to accept Taunton's action here. I lament it in that I will miss Charles' voice, especially if he is never permitted to return or must do so in some castrated form. I also don't pretend to know the details of the basis for it. But I do accept it, as my first post in this thread should have demonstrated:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=46867.3
I've been on internet forums of various sorts for many many years too. I have seen a variety of melt-down situations. I frankly prefer the more libertine format than the more constrained as I don't find minor jabs nearly so annoying as phoney political correctness and a general "if you can't say something nice ..." dictate. Different strokes.
This site is not set up to moderate the contents really.. nor do I believe they really want to. Here we are at around 100 post discussing the issue of "should Charles be banned.. re-instated.. and should the site be policed more strictly". If Charles had been banned on another site I visit.. you would not be having this discussion. An administrative statement would have appeared as the one Gina posted and then it would be a closed thread with the caution the issue was not to be debated in another thread... or else!
Charles has been banned but.. Charles is still here and the site is not set up to keep him away under current policy. All it requires most likely is a different e-mail address. And even if you ban the computer origin... I was on a site that had the most terrible troll I have ever seen. He (or she) was extremely nasty in what they said and the words they chose to say them. But.. that troll knew something about computers as he could steal an identity of anyone's computer and post as many times a day as they wanted using a stolen computer identity. And just to show he could.. he even stole the identity of the owner of the site's and posted his trash using it.
So.. Charles is here and if he chose's to stay.. he will post I assure you. Now.. will he still inflict venom or will he chose to approach things a little more diplomatically to avoid changing sources of how he got here? I don't know but... I do know that it is almost impossible from what I have seen that if someone wants to post.. it is very difficult to make them just vanish by cutting off one e-mail.
Ya'll have a good day as I do have more work to do in my shop. I'm sure the discussion will still be here when I check back in latter on break. Real sure... :>)
Sarge..
Sarge,
If Boss is still around, I hope he's taking some pleasure that this thread has reached 103 posts... 25 more then Dereks! :)
I feel certain he is still around as demonstrated by him posting yesterday I believe after the ban. Is he taking pleasure in the thread going over 100 post? I really can't say as Charles would have to pipe in and answer the question.
As far as more post than Derek.. I really didn't get a head count but I will say that is over 100 and will be many more before it tapers off I believe. The Cafe is rather empty as we seem to have transferred the energy over to Hand Tools and General Discussion. Perhaps we should move all the real WW'ing threads to the Cafe to avoid a traffic jam with the other topic headers? :>)
I will note over 100 and counting.. There is a thread that was started over in the Cafe on Memorial Day giving thoughts on Memorial Day itself with a total of 7 post from I believe 4 posters. But 100 and counting here. I suppose Memorial Day which honors our war dead is not a popular as it once was before the inter-net. You don't even have to leave the convenience of your desk chair.
Or.. there is just more interest these days in Hockey games to see the fights break out. Or perhaps that may have always been true. I suppose that all the elite of society who drove out in their carriages at Gettysburg to sit on the hill-side with their pick-nick lunches and watch thousands of young men lose their life fighting a skirmish would fall into about the same category. Life is simple I suppose.. go figure?
Sarge..
Next glue-up out of the rack coming up.. back
Edited 5/28/2009 4:01 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Well said- measured, thoughtful, reasonable. I give the "meltdown" 10 minutes...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
A case of life imitating Knots hyperbole:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2009/05/27/carter.or.911.juice.box.kptv
laugh a little.
Steve,
I read your discussion with Sean. I'd hate to see you too get at odds, you both have too much to offer each other. I have a different question for you.
What can be done to get Charles excommunication reversed now? If you scanned this thread, you know there was little support for that decision except from Bob. I am serious about this. While I could never be a friend of Charles, and while I wish he would only use one name, I still believe he is one of THE contributors to Knots). I would like to see a groundswell, not of irrelevant talk about details, but about getting Charles back. Any suggestions?Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, Mel, Mel,
"What can be done to get Charles excommunication reversed now?"
I don't know. I have no interest in getting it reversed, at any rate. (Which is not to say that I really care one way or the other.)
"If you scanned this thread, you know there was little support for that decision except from Bob."
You must have read a different thread from the one that I did.
To be honest, I found most of Charles's woodworking-related postings to be rather mundane. Commonsense stuff, really. I don't recall very much at all in the way of unique perspectives and the like. So, in balance, I'd say that his absence isn't really much of a loss at all. Given that, why bother getting him back?
I should also point out that I have nothing against curmudgeons. As should be obvious by now, I am a curmudgeon myself. But Charles's boorish postings were mostly just boorish, not curmudgeonly. The difference is that beneath the crusty exterior, a curmudgeon has a point, a rationale. Charles was too often simply trying to get arise out of his victims.
-Steve
Steve,
I always respect your opinion. I never thought of you as a curmudgeon, only as a person who loves a good discussion. About Charles - I don't see his postings as mundane. Here is what I see. There are essentially two "religions" here on Knots, although each has many subreligions. Ther are those with what I call "the professional approach" which means focussing in making fine furniture with care but with whatever tools are needed, and in a reasonable amount of time. Not all members of this religion are professionals. These folks focus on knowledge and skill more than on the fine details of planes and chisels. The other religion is the "BUY THE BEST TOOLS" religion. Many of these folks actually make furniture, though I am not sure that all of them do. But they spend an immense amount of energy keeping up with the latest tiny changes in tools, especially expensive tools. My point is that, especially in the Hand Tools section, the members of the second religion are more vocal than those of the first. One might expect that. SO WHAT ABOUT CHARLES? CHarles is a high priest of the first religion, and he often pokes at folks who diddle around too much with factors that aren't going to have much effect on building furniture.SO I believe that Charles does an important job -- helping keep the first religion alive and well. I have noticed that members of the second religion seem to take offense much more easily than members of the first, who rarely if ever take offense. I believe that losing Charles makes this place:
- a bit more biased toward the second religion.
- a bit less interesting.
- much less intelligent. Charles is one smart guy.So does this place need to be interesting?
Well, I checked with one of the people I mentioned in this message. I didn't see him on Knots in three months. He said that he was getting bored with it. Interesting. I believe that a thread that Derek started recently said that things have been slow around here lately. I also have been here much less, because so much of the stuff has been covered so often and so much of it is only skin deep. I believe that Interesting is Good. It would be much duller without Charles. Luckily Charles is still here. He isn't going anywhere. He just uses different names. So this is all a tempest in a teapot. That means it is time to drop it. So I will.Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
You know, Mel. I made some drawer slides last night. I used a piece of teak I've had for a long time. It was the first time I used the stuff. It's really a unique wood. It reminds me of lignum vitae in its waxiness, and is dense too. It makes a weird yellow dust when cut even though it is brown when you look at the board.
I'd never hung a drawer in this way before - routing grooves in the sides and then mounting slides on the carcase side. There were lots of little things about reference edges, expansion slots and such that made it much more demanding than I would have first thought. These sorts of things always lead me to reflect on how much is left out of even the most thorough articles on a technique.
All this is neither here nor there, but just to sort of say, that these little victories and explorations in the shop are ever so much more interesting and enlightening than even the most thorough tool review.
Oh, I think your religion thing is all wet. There are few, if any, tool collectors around here. We are all much more complex than your dichotomy asserts.
"It makes a weird yellow dust when cut even though it is brown when you look at the board."
Cocobolo is the same way.
-Steve
Sean,
You said that things are more complex than my set of religions.
Well, I said that before you did. So I completely agree with you. I said it was a matter of balance, and not a dichotomy. I merely wanted that idea to explain the way in which Charles' comments are important. OK That is finished.Teak. Glad to hear you gave it a try. I made a few items out of some teak many years ago and found the same thing you did. Yellow dust. Interesting stuff. I like how the things came out. Your mind is an interesting place. You try hard to do things well and you notice what is happening, and you reason about it. That is also my approach. My wife thinks I agonize over things. I have tried to explain that one cannot possibly be agonizing when one is having fun. I enjoy the intellectual aspect of understanding processes as much as actually carrying out the processes to get stuff made. So what have I been trying out that is interesting. Today I caned two chairs, and did some analysis on a third. I have a nice book on everything you ever wanted to know about caning (and more). I learned how to install machine caning. It is trivial once you learn how. The next chair needs to have its cane woven. That will be more of a challenge. Then I put the final coat of finish on my "glider chair for Freddy". Next I will assemble the mechanism, and it will be ready for my wife to upholster. Then I will put a sequence of photos on Knots. It has been a very satisfying experience - my first experience with angles other than 90 and 45 ( like 8 and 18) and with making and joining curved parts, and with making moving mechanisms. I almost wish the other issues would stay out of the way. I am in the shop for a long time every day, although not long enough. Now Freddy (16 months) is here Mon thru Fri and will be so through the summer. I am becoming a good babysitter, and he is learning trigonometry and philosophy, where I am starting him out with ethics.Have fun.
Let's keep talking about woodwork.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel ,
Sounds like you have learned some new skills caning chairs and such .
Is this the first time ever for you ? The hand woven cane will be more of a time commitment depending on how many holes are around the seat and the size cane you use , this will be dictated by the distance from center to center of each hole and it's diameter gives you the exact size to use , follow the guide chart .
Let me know if you need help or want some info the books may not tell you about , I have caned hundreds of seats over the years . I made a simple little tool out of a coat hanger with a wood handle to help during the weaving .
Sorry if this was off topic ( caning )
regards dusty,who's rushed,wickered,Hong Kong sea grassed ,Danish seat corded,Angola Goat hided , rawhided ,and splinted to name a few.
Dusty,
YOu are a life saver.
Thanks for bringing up woodwork. I love woodwork.
Yup, that was my first caning project. I did two chairs. They worked out well. I have a great book, called "The Caner's Handbook". It gives great instructions. I need to order the supplies to do the woven cane, and am looking forward to that adventure. Glad to hear that you have done chairs lots of ways. Now if I run into trouble, I know who to contact. That is what Knots should be all about - helping one another, and talking about what we enjoy - the projects.WHere do you get your caning supplies? Do you use the web or do you have a place to do them locally?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
Don't under rate the part in that book that talks about relating the size of the cane (who knew cane comes in sizes?) with the size of the HOLES in the seat. Otherwise, you might get to the next-to-last step in your caning project and have no room for the last two passes of cane to get thru the holes. DAMHIKT!
Ray
Ray,
You are a grand master of lacing the truth with humor, and humor with truth. Luckily I have a digital micrometer so I can measure the cane to unbelievable and unnecessarily tight; tolerances. Freddy likes all of my ditital tools. He can "zero" them and turn them on and off quite quickly. He is helping me choose the size of the cane. The book on caning is very good, but it is a fairly complex task, until you have done it a few times. Then it is as simple as making a Chippendale highboy. :-)Interesting. Millions of people across the world can cane and chew gum at the same time, and I am a bit intimidated by just doing the caning. Oh well. One more hill to be climbed. I have seen some magnificent chairs with caned backs which have a wooden medallion in the center. The caning is done in a sunburst design. VERY NICE. Maybe next year. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel ,
Some chair backs use a system called blind cane , some with medallions and some not .With the blind cane the holes do not go through the frame , you glue each strand in one at a time .I have seen whole sofa backs done blind .
Speaking of Blind ,the blind have been taught to hand cane for many years . It is tricky when you can see , can you imagine doing it without seeing it ?
regards dusty
Dusty,
I really wish I lived closer to you.
In the beginning you had me convinced that you made boxes.
Now I am convinced that there is not much you can't do.I just came up from the shop. I removed the woven cane from the chair. Now I will measure the size of the holes and of the cane and of the special piece of wide cane that goes along each of the edges. Then I will make my purchase and see if the "seeing" can learn caning. Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You wrote, "What can be done to get Charles excommunication reversed now? If you scanned this thread, you know there was little support for that decision except from Bob."
I didn't get that impression at all. Little support for the decision except from Bob? Not that we're voting on this issue, but my support was firmly behind Gina's decision.
I agree with Steve that this should be a moderated forum, and also that the moderator made the right decision to banish someone whose vituperitive posts were not what most of us want to read.
Disagreement in these forums is to be expected, even celebrated as honest and open debate. But there are ways and ways to disagree, as I hope you will agree.
There's a difference in someone saying, for instance, "Your experience with that is different from my own, which is..." as opposed to, "You're a moron. How can you possibly think that? Go back under your rock, pissant."
It would behoove all of us to act respectfully toward one another and to think a little - and edit! - before posting the first thing that pops into our heads. Do unto others and all that...
There is so much valuable information available on Knots. I've learned a lot, and maybe contributed a thing or two myself. But I find personal attacks distasteful, and it makes me not want to spend time here if I have to wade through that stuff. I like to stick to the topic on hand.
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Z,"There's a difference in someone saying, for instance, "Your experience with that is different from my own, which is..." as opposed to, "You're a moron. How can you possibly think that? Go back under your rock, pissant."Wow, I have never ever heard Charles say anything that resembled that. I do not care to argue by taking things to un-real extremes.It is time to get back to the shop.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Sean,
Excuse me but I think in this particular case the line could have been drawn anywhere on this planet and it was crossed.
To me what I object(ed) to is the total callous disregard of any measure of respect, either for the victim or hisself. Demanding, no asking, for details that are/were quite frankly none of his Gd business! And, here's the real kicker to all that - he was warned beforehand.
To me that's just like walking up to Taunton and saying, "Go.......". Can't say it but you know what I mean. Besides I doubt there are many who really give a tinkers damn anyway about the details.
And yes I would have posted this with or without that dang gavel.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
You know, I wouldn't give a rat's a$$ about someone getting banned who just came on here and was an offensive idiot. But for me, Charles added value. Take a look at his contribution to my door building thread, for example. This is not an isolated occurrence either. I know I've often posted to Charles that I thought something he'd written was well-said of that he'd made a good point. But it's been established, Bob, that I have a "problem," so it don't matter much what I think.
Peace.
Sean,
Charles and I have had several, uh, debates over the years in here and I'm sure if I wagged my index finger in his face he's not likely to invite me over for dinner, and I wouldn't blame him.
As to his added value I would whole heartedly agree with you. And I would also like to add, in a complimentary way, that he was/is a great curmudgeon, or one hell of a good actor.
Oh and my cousin Randy lost his monkey; have you seen one aroun?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
ooooo ooooo ooooot aaaahh aaaah
got any bananas?????
Bob,
Now you are on the side of Management. You have a badge next to your name. I would like to enlist your help. How about checking with the Taunton folks, eg Gina, and discretely asking what can be done to do something which is in Knots and Taunton's best interest -- that is, to get Charles un-excommunicated now. If you read this thread, you will find almost no support for the failed attempt to get rid of Charles. He is still here. The attempt to get rid of him did a disservice to Taunton, as you can see from this thread, most customers are in strong disagrement with the decision.Are you willing to help?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Now you are on the side of Management. Nope You have a badge next to your name. taint a badge it's a hammer/gavel thang I would like to enlist your help. can't do that.
Excuse me for being curt but I have wood to torture and mebbe swear at it a little bit when it doesn't cooperate. I'm making a coffee table to go with my Lataxe bench.
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I don't think most want him back. I think he got what he deserved. If it is allowed to go on, soon Knots will be 10 to 15 trolls standing in a room, bashing each other over the head with a club.Move on....this thread should be over.Jeff
NEWSFLASH:
Global demand for wood crashes amid paralyzing woodworker debate.
On a lighter note,
Hey man, those templates worked really great. Made a bench and two chairs and got one coat of finish on. It's been very humid and cold so will wait for the last coats for now.
Thanks again,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Now THAT'S funny!
ROFL!!!! Excellent, Rhagenstein. I'd be plenty happy for this thread to exhaust itself, maybe that'll do it. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
That was my hope as well, FG, but it seems there is still a bit of fight left in the thread.
In the meantime there are members out there with woodworking problems <click> who aren't getting any help.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
ahh, the old "put up or shut up" ploy. good on ya.
Jeff,
Someone has to do this and, well, it might as well be me.
Yur just pizzed cuz of the Blackhawks aintcha!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
You know what, Bob?I'm just sick and tired of the same characters infiltrating and degrading every single thread in this forum. This thread regarding the banning of cstan has really turned my stomach. People are defending his actions and acting like nothing he did was ever out of line. He crossed over the line so many times that I'm surprised the ban hadn't occurred much sooner. Other trolls like dgreen also drive me away from participating.In fact, after careful thought, I'm done. This will be my last post. I'm deleting Knots from my favorites list. Mel can cheer for Charlie all he wants.....I'm just not going to read it......over.......and over.....and over......you get the picture.Just to be clear, I'm not upset with the Blackhawks at all. They had a great season, and I'm quite proud that they are once again playing solid hockey. I can't wait until next year.Signing off,Jeff
"I'm just sick and tired of the same characters infiltrating and degrading every single thread in this forum." Well, Jeff says he's gone, so I addressed this to "ALL".
Again, hyperbole -- Cstan and Dgreen don't inflitrate "every single thread" and poison them. I doubt they even infiltrate the majority of threads. The good of this forum far outweighs the negative contributions of trolls and grumps. IMHO, leaving because of junk like this, which is easily ignored (see paragraph #3), is the proverbial cutting off of the nose to spite your face -- unless, of course, one is so knowledgeable and well-practiced that there's no woodworking to be learned here.
This whole thing reminds me of when politics and war infected the forum several years ago, and a whole bunch of people said "I'm gone! I can't believe such a great woodworker, _____________ (insert name here), can be such an idiot about _________________ (insert "war" or "election" or whatever).
This stuff can only aggravate you if you continue to read the threads!!! You can designate any thread as "Ignore" and it won't even show up in your list. Just scroll down to the very bottom of the right-hand frame, and there ya go, Bob's your uncle.
The only reason I'm following this thread is because that gavel next to my name provides grist for a guilty conscience if I don't keep track of what's going on. The reason I can't answer questions about "Exactly what did he say to get kicked off?" is because I tired early in the contentious threads and didn't keep reading them.
Most of us are waaaaayyyyyy too busy to waste time and energy on this kind of cr*p.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jeff,Knots would be diminished by your leaving, and personally I'd miss you. This forum has helped me hone my skills at simply ignoring distractions.regards,David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Ring,
Jeff always says that, but he won't actually leave because he has buddies here.Philip Marcou
Philip (and Jeff & Ring),
Jeff does indeed have buddies, some of whom are quite grateful for him sharing of his knowledge and experience in past times, such that the grateful recipient has had his woodworking improved no-end.
Let not the trolls inherit the cyberspace (although we cannae be meek with them, mind).
Lataxe, who does hope Jeff will stay and stay.
Jeff,
You said that he got what he deserved.What was it that he did?
What was it he said that caused Gina's action?
Who was dissed?
Did they take it badly?
You may know a lot more than I do. I sure would like to learn what you know about this.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, he doesn't know anything. He just knows that Charles needled him in the past (quick serach of a few "from" Charles' pseudonyms and to whomever). Same can be said for most of those cheering Charles' ban. If they all hate him so much, why didn't they hit their ignore buttons? Yes people, you have the power to "ban" anyone here you like from your screen.
Sean,
You speak wisely. I fully agree. Ignore what you don't like. THis is all too simple.
Thank you.
MelPS I just put the last coat on Freddy's glider, and the last coat of oil on the "Toy Bowl" that I made him. I don't like toy chests with lids that can fall on little hands. Since I enjoy carving bowls, I made one that is big - almost two feet long, for him to store his "multiple part" toys in (or for his parents to put the toys in the bowl. I kind of like the idea of a massive bowl for toy storage. It is easy to see everything. You don't have to dig deep to find things. And when the kid grows up, he or she has a "distresses" bowl that can be used for lots of different functions. This one is out of red oak, so it can take some abuse.I wonder if my idea for "toy bowls" will catch on more than my idea for keeping babies from rolling off a "changing table" - double sided tape.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Can the powers that be please just delete the whole damn post? Charles is out. Life will go on. This whole damn thing is why people leave this forum...Chris
If it doesn't interest you it should be deleted?
Is someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read this thread?
I didn't say I wasn't interested...it's kind of like watching a train wreck. I am simply suggesting that nothing is going to be resolved and that this post is merely a reflection of what is happening in Knots almost daily. Seemingly innocent posts deteriorate into nonsense as one person claims there way is the 'best' way and will go down in flames before they admit they may be wrong or that there are other ways of doing it. Chris
Samson:But look, that is the point. There is only one answer. When a forum like this loses civility, it becomes a largely closed community of people who enjoy jab and thrust. Others who simply want to talk about the topic lose interest.Although I personally avoid it, there is, I believe, a place in KNOTS where people can go and debate on any topic and be as disagreeable as they care to be. If that is what some participant wants to do, that location is the right place for it, not the open forums.I avoid the debating hall forum not because I fear a fight, but because I come to KNOTS to relax and learn something. Believe me, daily working life offers me plenty of opportunities to engage in argumentation and conflict. In fact, if I was especially confrontation averse, I'd have been gone from here long ago. One recent KNOTS fight resulted in my receiving highly offensive personal emails after the fact -- despite the fact that I was not a party to the fight but merely a commentator.In the end, it makes no sense at all for Taunton to allow a forum completely funded by them to degenerate into the personal debating hall of a limited number of disagreeable people. To prevent such an outcome is not censorship (Taunton owns KNOTS; no one has a right to post). It is merely good business and good sense. The paid sponsors of KNOTS want wide exposure. They are not well served by repeated exposure to a limited group. Joe
We will never know how many members haven't become posters due to having stumbled on rude/crude/vicious posts and consequently holding back. We will never know what we are missing because they got a warped impression of this forum and choose not to participate actively.
Personally, I would be bored with a forum where there are never any disagreements, nobody every challenges a thought, idea or technique. I've been to forums like that, and don't spend much, if any, time at them. But there's a big difference between disagreement, even argument, and plain viciousness or self-satisfying antagonism for its own sake, always at the cost of someone else's discomfort.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
What a breath of fresh air! For the first time in several weeks, I dropped in to see what was happening in Knots tonight. The first thread that came up was this one, and I was pleased to see that someone had actually been locked out of this forum. I rarely drop in here anymore because of the BS that dominates the site. It seems that everyone here wants to be sarcastic, a debater, or a philosopher. The mindless banter that dominates Knots has caused me and many other wood workers to stay clear of the place. (Sorry for posting this because this will surely give more fuel to a few of the regular gang of Knot Heads who add little or nothing of value to the forum.) Kudos to Gina Eide for taking some action!
Lataxe:I agree with you fully. "Asking questions," can be a game in which the questioner is being aggressive and disingenuous. When taken to task for his or her aggressiveness he or she can feign innocence and claim that it was "just a question -- what harm in that?"Well, it is a stupid and unpleasant game that other people should not have to tolerate. Any fool can tell the difference. There are other elements in some of the comments made "Charles" (or whoever he or she may really be) and certain others. They amount to defamation of character. They should not be tolerated at all by decent people.I do not object to arguments at all. I enjoy and learn from them. Arguments, even serious ones, can be conducted civilly. The difference is perfectly clear.Joe
There is an overall assumption in several posts of this thread that BC was suspended for simply asking a question. I am skeptical of this assumption. SysOp's history is that they suspend only when the suspendee repeatedly engages in disparaging or defamatory attacks, attacks that are extremely meanspirited and meant (as mentioned above) to drive another member out of the boards. How does that benefit any of us?
I did not see the offensive posts, and I wouldn't be surprised if they've already been deleted from the forum, so we may never see them. I've seen enough of these flare-ups to trust SysOp's judgement as to when someone needs to be booted out. An occasional food-fight is one thing, but fostering a Troll in his mission to drive away members he doesn't like would be a fatal stance for admin.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
That's completely wrong headed. KNOTS is not a social networking site. Find somewhere else to seek entertaining banter or "knife fights". The attitude you expressed (and I'm not sure you believe it) is most corrosive to KNOTS.
KNOTS is supposed to be about woodworking. We need to encourage participation, especially from pros, industry folks, manufacturers (like Andrew Lunn for example) or KNOTS will continue to be the troll haven it has become.
I think we may have hung the wrong man here. I see no tears shed for a young businessman making a great product. Andrew was treated very roughly here. KNOTS should be about inclusion. It's a place to discuss the details and up to the minute commentary publishers can't provide in print.
Last word from me on this subject. I don't envy Gina. Her decisions will shape KNOTS.
Adam
>It's a place to discuss the details and up to the minute commentary publishers can't provide in print.<!---->
Like this?
"Andrew’s dovetail saws are designed with significant taper from toe to heel. I was expecting this saw to look similar, but the taper was not apparent until I measured the blade and back. The saw plate tapers gently from 58mm at the toe to 60mm at the rear (measured at the front of the tote). The folded brass back tapers from 16mm at the toe to 18mm at the heel."
There's a reason that publishers can't provide it in print. It's stupid. It's irrelevant, and it's not really saying anything.
Or maybe like this:
"This blade is 14 ppi to my eye. I have read (but cannot determine this on my own) that the teeth begin with less rake at the toe to start a cut more smoothly. Andrew, I think that you will be the one sharpening my saw when that day comes .."
It's an infomercial that creates a mysticism out of very simple saw sharpening.
Derek is Taunton's guy. He is representing them with that little gavel designation. But if Derek is what you get with the on-line portion of Taunton, then,...I don't need it. I'm beyond it, now.
Adam:
Your post is very much on target. This is a woodworking site, period. Most of us have limited time and resources. Most of us come to Knots to connect with people who either know more about specific tools, materials, and methods than we do, to get solutions to problems that have stumped us, and to share our knowledge/experience with others. In that sense, Knots is a community of woodworkers who are supporting each other in the advancement of our shared interest in woodworking. Knots should be a resource that goes beyond the publications.
To that end, I find it shameful that a skilled toolmaker with a quality product like Andrew took a hit, and that guys like you and Derek (who have been of great personal help to me in advancing as a woodworker) are the subjects of personal attacks just for trying to share knowledge that has come from hands on experience.
To ALL:
Disagreements over the value of a tool, appropriateness of a material, or the effectiveness of a technique are to be expected, but at no time should these disagreements get out of hand and become personal assaults. By all means, make your case, but leave it at that. Also, I'm glad that folks have developed friendships through Knots. But totally off topic banter should be taken off-line through personal emails. If your post will shed light and benefit the rest of us, please type away. However, if it is meant to be hurtful or contributes nothing to the topic at hand, please keep it private. We have a good thing here, let's not spoil it by being inconsiderate and petty.
Thank you,
gdblake
Gina,
I was very disappointed to see that you had tried to banish Charles from Knots. THe rest of Knots seems to be in agreement that attempting to banish him was not a good thing. I heartily recommend that you "un-banish him".
PLEASE UN-BANISH HIM.
Thank you very much.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
" THe rest of Knots seems to be in agreement that attempting to banish him was not a good thing." What color glasses are you reading with that helped you come to that conclusion??? or did I miss some sarcasm in my admittedly quick read?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I'm with you, girl of the forest. The majority of the people don't want the guy back, but the minority who do put up more posts than anyone else and then graded by weight.Joe
Forestgirl,When I scanned the thread and did a quick reaction, I figured that those who suggested ignoring certain behaviours were not for excommunication. You counted such people differently. That explains how we got to different conclusions. There is no sarcasm here, and there was not in the last message. Have fun. Hope that explains it. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,What you and others seem to ignore is that it is not your (nor my nor FG's) forum. It is Taunton's. They host it, they pay the bills, they deal with the headaches. We are guests.Generally, I think the moderation here has been with a light touch, esp. for the past year or so. When someone crosses the line, they get a private warning. If they dial it down, there is no harm, no foul. If they persist in trolling they get another warning. If they continue out of bounds, they get banned. Read the OP:"He was recently warned about personal attacks, yet he persisted. I also locked out a collection of his aliases."Whether you (or I) like it or not, those are the terms. If someone persists in violating them, they will be banned. It is not a vote, not how we count, not our preference, it's the moderator's decision. I like and take strong positions from time to time, but it's not hard to know where the line is, and as a guest, I try to avoid stepping over it.We all can (and should) express our views on this bit- but that's all they are. Our views. We don't get to decide and the only vote we have (and it is an important one) is with our feet.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
"it is not your (nor my nor FG's) forum. It is Taunton's. They host it, they pay the bills, they deal with the headaches.
We are guests."
AMEN!
"Generally, I think the moderation here has been with a light touch, esp. for the past year or so."
AMEN!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
This is a long thread. Did I miss a fight? I love a good fight....... I always miss the good ones. Will someone let me know if a new fight is scheduled?John
You missed the preliminaries- the growling and tail sniffing....Bring on one bucket of cold water and some dog biscuits....Philip Marcou
I always miss the fun stuff!!!John
OK, so here's another unanswered initial post, been up since Noon today, simple question, but no responses for some bizarre reason. Is everyone out swimming, stocking up for the BBQ? I've been at work until about 10 minutes ago. Pretty surprising to see no responses on this one....
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 5/29/2009 9:57 pm by forestgirl
I don't think that's the one you meant (your link seems misdirected).
Perhaps you were referring to the safety of cutting boards to length on a table saw question? Should be in your sweet spot, no?
Seriously, he wouldn't want to know how I would do it. Whenever I give an answer like that instead of sticking to the method the newcomer already has in mind I tend to get accused of all sorts of bad intent and failure to stick to the proper topic. Like in the old days I would have thought the topic there was how boards might be safely cut to length. Now I understand it is about how to do so WITH A TABLESAW. Got it.
Thanks, Samson, I've been out in the heat all day and my brain hasn't quite recovered.
I wasn't much help, because I use my sliding CMS for virtually all cuts 24" or less. I've also been known to turn the miter gauge around in the slot. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I just added my answer to the thread mentioned as I happened to catch it before I read your alerted post to me. I am hit and miss as I spend a lot of time down in the shop and try to scan when I come up for break. I just got up from cutting rabbets on back-frames for frame and panels.
BTW.. I did see the thread you mentioned earlier today but.. frankly I have never done what he was doing so I was not qualified to answer. Time to go back down to clean up rabbet bottoms. Hello.. shoulder plane. Now.. should I sharpen it before I make the clean-up cuts... and at what angle on the iron? And in this case it's a LV medium shoulder. Which side is better to have that flip over do-dad that fits in your palm on the rear of the plane? :>)
Just poking some fun... gotta run...
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 5/29/2009 10:24 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
"Time to go back down to clean up rabbet bottoms...." Darn those dirty rabbets!
I'm deciding whether to spend the night in the loft of one of the barns. My trainer's mare is about to foal, seems imminent, but they can fool ya. Am getting a little old for this nonsense, but it may be the last time I'll get a chance, at least for awhile.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Midnight here and I just got up from the shop. I do believe I would spend the night in the barn. I wish I had a barn to spend the night in sometimes as I just miss things around a farm and there are no farms here anymore unfortunately.
Good luck to the mare...
Sarge..
No luck last night, Sarge. The mare's name is Pere (short for Peregrine, her sire being Falcon, Swedish Warmblood). I am now calling her Pere the Party Pooper as she didn't come through for us last night.
But at least her owner only had to get up every other hour, instead of every hour. We traded off. I slept in the back of the SUV, slept pretty well in short bursts, but thoroughly awakened when the birds woke up at 4:30 a.m.!
Will be at it again tonight, but I'm betting (literally) that she'll foal at 2:30 a.m. Monday morning. I get a free dinner if I win.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Good luck with your chore as it is a major task. BTW... just a thought on the stickiness on the table. Way back when my ex-FIL was corporate construction manager for a large family restaurant in Florida called the Kapok Tree. They had round tables that he banded with a thin, flexible wooden strip and then they litterly poured urethane in about 1/2" deep. It then had to sit and cure for a while that thick to harden in a ventilated warehouse.
There was a case that some old or not well mixed (he was never certain) urethane (or poly.. whatever) batch of table tops did just what you describe. Each of the restaurants seated over 2500 people so we are talking about large quantities of tables as they eventually opened another one in Orlando and then West Palm Beach. So.. a possible answer may be a bad batch or improperly cured finish that never really cured out. Heat would trigger the stickiness to a higher degree but they were all somewhat sticky from the get-go. He simply discarded the tops in that batch and had his crew make more.
Just a thought Holmes... :>)
Doctor Watson... aka Sarge..
The task is accomplished, Sarge! Ulla's mare foaled this afternoon at 1 p.m. You can see the first-hour pics in this thread <click>.
Really surprised she foaled in the middle of the day. Her other two arrived in the early morning hours. She was 2 weeks overdue, I guess just had to pop it out!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/1/2009 2:40 am by forestgirl
Really surprised she foaled in the middle of the day. Her other two arrived in the early morning hours. She was 2 weeks overdue, I guess just had to pop it out!.. FG
Which goes to show that you cannot predict anything a woman does... with the exception of my lovely and her sense of direction. If she parked to the left of the door of a store she is coming out of.... you can lay your bet she will turn right coming out the door to attempt to find her vehicle. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Give my regards to "mom" for job well done... I'm sure she was glad to get that load off her tummy. Nice looking little one.
Sarge..
Glaucon,I am tired of this topic. I am going down to the shop and do some woodwork. I just finished two projects and have three more lined up. Can't wait. What have you been doing in the line of woodwork lately?
This is supposed to be a woodworking website. Let's talk about woodworking.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
Sham on you~
Hi Will George.
How ya doin?
What are you making these days?
Let's focus on woodwork.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Let's focus on woodwork. I'll try but very hard fer me...
Mel-With you usual stern tone of instruction, you say, "This is supposed to be a woodworking website. Let's talk about woodworking."How long ago, in this very thread, did you say to the forum moderator:"I was very disappointed to see that had tried to banish Charles from Knots. THe rest of Knots seems to be in agreement that attempting to banish him was not a good thing. I heartily recommend that you "un-banish him".PLEASE UN-BANISH HIM."The foolish pursuit of consistency, and all that.
Donald,
Are you retired?
What kind of woodwork do you do?
What are you working on now?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"You counted such people differently." No, Mel, I did not. I put them in the first "approve" count, but then I explained that if they were removed from the count, the vast majority were still in favor of the action taken by SysOp.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I would like to think that a moderators decision is final, but if the kerfuffle continues and the moderator is having second thoughts or feeling weak the matter could always be voted on.
On another track: banning goblins is a short term antidote of doubtful efficiency and may even be seen as a victory of some sort by these creatures, as there is nowt to stop them re-appearing as they do, in the company of a few sycophants.
Stabbing the "ignore button" is also of little value as this doesn't flush the effluent away and the noxious fumes can be fatal in the interim to the rest of the troop.
I believe it is no coincidence that, without exception, no goblin on this forum has actually shown us proof in the form of pictures of work , or pictures of shop, that what is talked about is actually practised: anyone can read books in armchair or play with computer and then appear on a forum as a "wise one". I would not be at all surprised if one or more of them turns out to be totally fake, existing only in their own minds.
When they defame, or rubbish the work or products of others, I think this is inexcusable and we should allow others more able to exorcise these devils to do so- or simply not respond at all ie not rise to the bait. Lataxe is one such person well qualified for the mission: and the recipient goes away with a smile on his face, quite unaware that the rest of the troop is overcome with mirth. Sort of like a dog that gets a biscuit after losing the fight. That is why I initially said "I await his reincarnation --- with some pleasure."Philip Marcou
Edited 5/29/2009 4:35 pm by philip
As Tony stated.. "for the record" I have no idea how you counted me not that is of any importance which it really isn't. Taunton has rules and has every right to have rules.. Taunton issued warnings.. those warnings were ignored. Taunton even has a special place you can go to be naughty if you chose with no bans. If Taunton chooses to ban someone after liberally warning them.. they have ever right to do so and I cannot blame them for doing so. Rules are rules.. I accept that.
So... don't count me as approves or dis-approves. I simply accept any decision by Taunton concerning bans for ignoring warnings as a decision on their part that I have bearing on. It is simply between the host and the guest as the guest over-rode his welcome by not respecting the wishes and rules of the host. So.. Taunton did not ban (or attempt in reality) Charles.. Charles banned Charles regardless of whether I personally like Charles or whether I have disgust for him.
Sarge..
"So... don't count me as approves or dis-approves. " That's exactly what I did (or didn't do?). I had a third category that a few people fell into, something like "understands the decision."forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Is there some way we can ask the powers that be to close this thread? Not delete, just close to any more postings.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Why? Why should this thread be closed?
Go for it. Continue discussing the same thing over and over. Have fun.Cheers,Peter (love that ignore button)
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
We could ask, but not likely to happen. We're doing good now discussing dirty rabbets and ultra-pregnant horses, don'tcha think?
Here's a question for ya, a finishing question: What would cause a restaurant table-top finish to be sticky, to one extent or another, forever? The cafe I eat breakfast at has tables that appear to be finished with Varathane or something similar. Stuff stick to them, especially things like tea-pots, but other (not hot) stuff. And they don't have any slickness to them. Seems weird.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Here's a question for ya, a finishing question: What would cause a restaurant table-top finish to be sticky.. Maybe Alchalo?
foresty-one,there was a place in pasadena called chef's broiler. the tabletops had a "finish" much like your description. i believe this perpetual stickiness is caused by wiping the tops with dirty and/or grease-laden, unwashed rags. as the film never gets removed, it builds up, coagulates, hardens and petrifies. successive wipings introduce a protective oily coating that helps to seal the ones underneath.
the second to the last time i ate at the broiler i was served a picture-perfect piece of cherry pie. about half way through it i mindlessly tapped my fork on the back edge of my dessert. a large section of what was left fell away revealing a hollowed out, geode-like center made entirely of a dusty green colored mold.
you would not believe what finally informed my decision never to return to chef's...
eefEdited 5/30/2009 4:49 pm ET by Eef
Edited 5/30/2009 4:49 pm ET by Eef
Nah, I'd know if they were using dirty water/rags. I can smell that yucky aroma a mile away.
Yuck, what a place! I might have gotten sick right then and there.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestG,
does this mean you do not want to hear about the last hurrah at chef's broiler?
eef
Sorry, Eef, of course I want to hear "the rest of the story"! I was rushing out the door, how rude of me. Is it even grosser than the cherry pie story?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If the finish is soft (i.e., you can dent it with your fingernail), then I'm inclined to think that it didn't cure properly, perhaps because it had been on the shelf too long before application, etc.If the finish is hard, then I think Eef is on the right track. Vegetable oil (from fried eggs, french fries, etc.) will partially polymerize over time, turning into a thin, sticky film.-Steve
See post 204 as I am inclined to agree on your theory as I saw it happen once on more than just one table top...
Sarge..
eef:I used to eat at the Chef's Broiler on many weekends about 2 or 3 in the morning. That was when I would leave the bar with that good looking 2 AM woman, who at 2 AM thought I wasn't too bad either. Small world.Jim
FG,
I have noticed those same symptoms in a cafe here which I visit almost daily. I have come to the conclusion that it is caused by the cleaning agents used-possibly those which contain ammonia or maybe isopropyl alcohol. I offered to re-spray their table tops if we used one top to experiment and see whether the catalysed wood lacquer I wanted to use would go the same way: it did and within about four months. Basically all horizontal surfaces were affected. The main counter top had been finished with something other than catlac, possibly a catalysed polyurethane-same problem, softening of the finish and dirty appearance.
I have also noticed the same deterioration of catalysed lacquer on furniture surfaces in contact with human skin -like chair arms. It's these pesky goblins with corrosive juices overflowing in more ways than one.Philip Marcou
Thanks Steve, Sarge and Philip. I'll see what they can tell me about the finish, their cleaning solutions, and the effect of my fingernail.
It's a pretty casual place, they could do what one of the waterfront restaurants does, which is to can the whole cleaning spray routine by way of putting brown paper over the tablecloths. Sort of a Shabby Chic approach (menue ain't cheap).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The best sea-food resturants I have shown up at on both coast and the Chesapeake Bay all look like juke-joints on the outside and all use brown paper over the table top. And that is true with the best Cajun and Creole joints that serve hot crawfish out of de pot. There may be a "Queens" approach to eating hot shrimp.. crawfish or even watermelon for that matter but... it ain't as good as getting down and dirty the way it should be eaten. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
BTW.. I do agree that a harsh chemical cleaner could cause or add to the problem with the sticky finish.
Sarge..
So true Sarge. Thank God I live about a block from the Chesapeake....
Are the crabs making a comeback? My brother lives in Annapolis, and my fondest memories are as a teenager pumping gas (they did that then) for him and the crab feasts on brown paper with old bay pitchers of beer she crab soup. To this day, I put old bay on my french fries. Last time I visited a dozen jumbo's were a 125 bucks at a resturant. The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
Sarge,
Having lived in New Orleans for 11 years before I moved to PA, newspapers were the most common "tablecloth" for crawfish/crayfish. (No matter how one spells it, it is routinely pronounced the same and both spellings taste the same.)
We would joke that on more formal occasions we used the Sunday paper.
Alan - planesaw
Have seen the news-paper about as often as the brown paper Alan. Thanks for reminding me as most of the good joints on the N.C., S.C., Ga. coast (Savannah Ga. to be specific) use the news-paper in lieu of the brown paper. Most the of Cajun-Creole joints I have in-habited are local Atlanta resturants owned by trans-planted south Louisiana folks so.. news-paper probably is the dominant paper in Louisiana as you say?
Now for water-melon my go to is most definitely news-paper on a picnic bench. Watermelon is an outside food with me as you just dive in and hold your breath. ha.. ha... ha.. ha..ha.. Back when I was growing up.. we had so many water-melons we only ate the heart and fed the meat nearer the rine to the pigs.
Regards...
Sarge..
I think there are more N'awlins folks living in Atlanta than in Louisiana.
Al
At this point Boogie.. you probably hit the nail on the head. We used to get hundreds of bus-loads each year for the Falcons-Saints game as they love their Saints and love to party in Atlanta. But.. after the game and week-end party they loaded up on the bus and went home.
This time when the bus loads came in after Katrina.. they got off the bus and well... stayed. Good news is some opened restaurants. Bad news is we had way to many people IMO before they came but.. everybody got to have a dry place to hang his hat I suppose.
Every two or three years I used to get over just west of you in Metairie to Houma.. Lake Charles and Lafayette to some Cajun and Zydeco festivals. Since I retired a year and a half ago and the economy... I have to pretty much hang out in my WW'ing shop as the good time money has to be budgeted pretty tight.
But.. hopefully sometime in the near future so until I get back go ahead and.........
Laissez Les Bons Temps Rouler....
Plenty of good times and good eating in south Louisiane...
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 5/31/2009 11:33 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
"There may be a "Queens" approach to eating ... even watermelon for that matter but... it ain't as good as getting down and dirty the way it should be eaten."
Amen to that! One of my favorite childhood memories is sitting beneath a big shade tree out in the countryside of North Carolina, eating ripe watermelon out of the nearby field, and feeding the rinds to the mule!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG & Sarge,
All this talk of eatin' watermelons outside and in a primitive fashion reminds me of a risque joke: one too rude to relate in full here.
Suffice it to say that the punchline is: "It keeps the flies off of my watermelon"!
Lataxe, a mucky wee grub.
PS I likes a near-rotted honeydew melon meself - one with black spots on the outside and a semi-liquid core. But then I also like mouldy grapes and septic cheese that moves of it's own accord. Mmmmmmm!
Edited 6/1/2009 4:17 am ET by Lataxe
Maybe the conspiracy is developed after responses like your last (which is now deleted) that pop up within minutes every time Derek is challenged.
Maybe the theorists start buzzing when one of Derek's most vocal opponents is silenced for a post that wasn't even in his top 100 venemous posts but was one of the most direct and could only be avoided by freezing, deleting, and/or expelling.
For me, however, the idea of a conspiracy forever moved way past theory when I recieve a private message containing the following off line:
"Come on, will you help me get his [Andrew Lunn's] attention, and then give him a push in a better direction. First of all, being negative to Derek, is going to do him a lot of harm. No one can be more helpful to someone who wants to sell expensive tools than Derek. Derek has the pulse of Knots and of wealthy woodworkers who want and can afford expensive tools. You want him to be on your side. He wants to be on your side. Mr. Lunn needs to cultivate Derek, not upset him." (emphasis mine)
Don't think for one second that it's only a theory that Derek gets paid well for his writing and that he's achieved a level of protection. We can only theorize about how well he gets paid and how good his protection is.
But I really don't care, really. I just know that Knots won't be as entertaining, which is all I originally intended to say.
Matt, being swayed by paragraphs, not pictures.
No representation without taxation
Edited 6/2/2009 7:27 pm ET by MattInPA
Man-o-man Matt, you are so lucky. No one ever writes me offline to strategize about Knots stuff.
What's up with that??!
I felt dirty after reading it.
No representation without taxation
Edited 6/2/2009 8:16 pm ET by MattInPA
Matt, you mutter:
"Don't think for one second that it's only a theory that Derek gets paid well for his writing and that he's achieved a level of protection. We can only theorize about how well he gets paid and how good his protection is........But I really don't care, really".
So, it's not just a theory but you can only theorise. Very logical. Aieee, you are one paranoid puppy! Perhaps you need to get out into the sunshine and fresh air?
I wonder if your post is libellous? It does make an unfounded allegation that seeks to destroy a person's character, with absolutely no evidence of either the alleged payments or any harm being done of any kind..... Unless, of course, we consider your "feeling dirty" or "betrayed" as harmful. However, in this case one feels it is a matter of self-harm brought on by an unfortunate brain-state.
****
Charles is nasty to folk because he enjoys being nasty, a very evident trait detected by numerous folk: his victims and also the observers of his poisonous drips. I doubt he is paranoid or suspicious of conspiracies, not least because he probably sees himself as the arch-conspirator of Knots. Watch me and my multi-personalities destroy the ego of this victim and then that. Ah ha, another one bites the dust!
You, Larry and Mel, on the other hand, have latched on to one of Charles' more unpleasant attacks on someone and now your conspiracy predelictions are in full flux. These dark looks and desires to attack imaginary enemies are not only very unpleasant for your victim but also rather disgusting for the rest of us to observe.
Perhaps you need to see your doctor, who may have a pill to stop the voices and bring you back to reality?
Lataxe, who doesn't know whether to laugh or cry at your ludicrous mutterings and their pollution of the Knots social fabric.
I believe that at this point it's only the degree of existence, not actual existence, that we can theorize or debate....which is what a wrote. It's not yes vs. no, but how much.
Libel? Ungrounded? You'll be my first witness, but you'll plead the 5th in a much less vicious defense.
No representation without taxation
Edited 6/3/2009 7:21 pm ET by MattInPA
Lataxe, dear friend,
I feel it necessary to call you to task here. Full disclosure would require that you yourself have been compensated by Derek, and as such, cannot be relied upon to offer unbiased opinions of his character. I have seen pictures of the goolla-boola handled scribing knife you are in possession of. Furthermore your chauvinistic side is showing. Aren't you feeling more than just a little put upon by these upstart Yanks piling onto a member of the "Hail Brittania" knots contingent? Admit it, it will be good exercise for your "wetware".
Ray, rabble rous--er, meme adjuster
Lataxe ,
You know , your posts themselves some of them could be construed as rude and insulting to some . Much is left to the interpretation of the reader .
I would say you have a way of telling someone off without us, them, knowing what the heck you said , it's a real art you have and at times entertaining to say the least .But not all enjoy being told off when you don't agree with them.Adding humor seems to soften the blow of your intended messages though .
I have noticed the folks who have the most to offer can be the most curmudgeonly of all ,like the Llama people say "spit happens" .
We all have a different style of trying to communicate , in our community of Knotheads most have a true helpful spirit and are always ready to lend an opinion and help.Some have a more curmudgeonly way of saying things .
regards dusty,a simple boxmaker
Hey guys, CUT IT or all of us will be expelled. Wouldn't it be a lot more wholesome if everyone would take a deep breath, exhale and then forget all unkind comments. If you don't think they will enjoy the comment or benefit from it, then don't make it. I have to admit I have a hard time with that on occasion but it is something to strive for.
Matt,
Maybe I missed it in your message? Who did you receive the private message from?
No offence intended here to Derek, but I don't think he's as important as he's being portrayed. His reviews are entertaining, but really only reach a small audience.
Buster
Forestgirl,
YOu can tell what people like, not by what they say, but by what they do. THEY LIKE THIS THREAD, and they have quickly run it up to over 200 very quickly. With some luck, it could get up over the previous record of over 6000. Indeed it has the flavor of the "LONG THREAD" in that:
- it no longer has anything to do with the topic.
-It has allowed folks to say whatever is on their minds.
- It allowed Charles back into the fold.
- It has nothing at all to do with woodwork, except for the pieces on finishing.THis thread has done for the various factions on Knots what Obama has done for the country. It has broght them all together. You have taken the Obama role in doing this. You have the Conservatives who believe in control and the Liberals who believe in "Live and let Live", and you have them all enjoying what we do best. The only person I know who is creative enough to have made this happen is Charles. Is Forestgirl just another name that you use, Charles? You are even more clever than I thought. Yuk Yuk Yuk.Enjoy.
MelHave fun.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hay Mel
You wrote "You have the Conservatives who believe in control" - I think you meant Liberals who believe in control, as in GM became Government Motors at 8:30 AM today.
TT
TT,
When it comes to politics, here is my belief. Both parties have problems between the sheets. With the Democrats, it is between the bedsheets. With the Republicans, it is between the spreadsheets. Other than that, I am not much into politics.Have fun. Don't take me too seriously. I don't.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Dang. I may have to steal that for my tag line!! LOL LOLGretchen
Gretchen,
Glad you liked the line. I actually believe it. Please take it with my blessing, since I "stole it" from someone else. That is about the depth of politics I like to get into. Meanwhile, it is time to get back to the shop and have some REAL FUN. Ah, the smell of sawdust through a dust-mask. By the way, do you remember that great line: "Do you know the difference between Congress and Kindergarten?In Congress, there is no adult supervision."Mark Twain, as I remember. Have fun,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel it is a funny quote, but if you look at California over the last 40 years it is hard to say the states spread sheets were were even looked at - and Republicans don't even live there anymore! The last one left in April!Anyways, I am biting my tong, and backing carefully away from the topic (step by step) and headed to the shop. Ah dear me.
Best,
TT
TT,
I understand about CA, and the politics.
I have a son and daughter in law who live there, as well as countless friends at the Jet Propulsion Lab from my NASA days, and lots of relatives up and down the coast. Now I see the Governator, although I don't understand him. What language does he speak? :-) CA has real money problems. So don't lots of other entities. I wish CA and its residents the best. The reason is personal. I have lots of relatives and friends there. One of my best friends, who I met back in about 1971 stays in touch. He is more of a hard core conservative than you will ever find on Knots. He is a Marine, and a smart one. He is an electrical engineer who flew jets. He keeps me up to as much speed as I can take on politics. I think that my aversion to politics disappoints him. He would like my views to be identical to his. We have long remained friends in spite of this. Thank you for not pushing the political thing. Good luck in the shop. I was there this morning. From 4 to 9 I will be at my post in the local Woodcraft store, enjoying life in the retail lane.Have fun. Stay sane. Keep up a sense of humor, and Don't take yourself too seriously. In any case, that is my recipe for life. Come to think of it, maybe you should try something else. :-)Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mell,
Thanks, you offer good advise!
TT
Mell,
I forgot to answer your question,
The Govenator speaks "French", its an obscure dialect found just outside Reims:)
TT
To return to the original message in this thread:Why does the moderator feel the need to banish anyone for bad behavior?In this forum, every member has the ability to ignore any other member. In other words we all have the individual power to banish anyone for whatever reason might take our fancy.So, if member A engages in behavior that member B dislikes, then all B has to do his hit the ignore button. It is perfectly democratic and leaves subjective and idiosyncratic judgements up to individuals, where they belong.Do we really want an overly polite forum where every discourse is reduced to the consistency and taste of unseasoned grits?Regards,Hastings
"Why does the moderator feel the need to banish anyone for bad behavior?"
Because this isn't just a bunch of people sitting around a campfire BS'ing on their own. This forus is run by a corporation with legal and professional responsibilities. There is an explicit set of rules (see http://www.taunton.com/thetauntonpress/forums_hr.asp). By participating, you agree to abide by those rules.
"Do we really want an overly polite forum where every discourse is reduced to the consistency and taste of unseasoned grits?"
Give me a break. One person is removed for repeated violations of the rules, and that reduces the forum to "unseasoned grits"?
-Steve
Steve:"Give me a break. One person is removed for repeated violations of the rules, and that reduces the forum to "unseasoned grits"?"Well of course it doesn't. And I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, but it won't take much. Do you remember Nikkiwood's temporary banishment? A few more and we'll you get the message!Nevertheless, my central point was for self-policing. We have the tools, why not let them work? That way you get the forum you want, tailored to your individual sensibilities.Regards,Hastings
"Nevertheless, my central point was for self-policing."
Apparently, you didn't bother to actually read the thread before adding your two cents. You're covering old ground.
To avoid repeating myself, look here.
-Steve
You almost sound like Charles, and I didn't 'follow him that much. He just offended me about 4 years ago and I said WTF, I don't have to put up with this so called "man". ;O) to you, whoever you are.Gretchen
Gretchen,
I don't think he was trying to pull anyone's chain. There are a lot of folk that believe in his approach. But, on certain subjects, can be more direct than normally... I have mine too! And have to be careful. Lets see what he has to say...
Best,
TT
Gretchen:Please take my question at face value - no hidden agenda.In fact you are the perfect illustration; you decided to hit the ignore button years ago. If we have the individual right to banishment, why do you need a collective version? That was it.BTW, what does this mean: ";O) to you". Is it good? I will assume it's a compliment!Regards,Hastings
Steve , probably the smartest guy I know
When you talk about the legal and professional responsibilities of the corporation as they apply to this forum I am curious of exactly what you think those are and to whom are they responsible ? Can they be sued ?
You don't think they are responsible for bad advice we might give to others or responsible for financial or other damage our written words can do , do you ?
When one member gets nasty or personally attacks another is the responsibility to remedy the situation Tauntons ? Banishment ? Until you come back as rsaunders or biggorilla or some other screen name .Is that a legal or moral responsibility they have ?
I'm pretty sure you can explain it to me , I'm probably not looking at it right.
regards dusty
The Terms of Use contains various sections of legalese intended to protect Taunton against liability from people following advice given here and hurting themselves. There are sufficient legal disclaimers in that regard that Taunton is probably pretty safe from liability lawsuits. (Which is not to say that people wouldn't try.)
Defamation, on the other hand, is a trickier situation. If someone sues for libel, they will likely sue both the libeler and Taunton (the "deep pockets" approach). They are still unlikely to win, but it could nevertheless be costly for Taunton (I've seen it happen).
As far as the "professional" part goes, the whole point of hosting these forums is to get people to join, to subscribe to the magazine, etc. If people are turned away by too much of a Wild West atmosphere, then that's money that Taunton doesn't see. That works both ways, of course; people will also be turned away by a forum that is too restrictive. That's why a light touch of moderation is usually best.
-Steve
Steve ,
Thanks for validating the system in place , it is as I imagined according to your fact lacking response for a guy like you .
regards dusty
"...it is as I imagined according to your fact lacking response for a guy like you ."
I'm pretty sure that that isn't English, but I'm not quite sure what language it is...
-Steve
Steve ,
One thing we both have in common , we recognize double talk when we see it .
regards dusty
But, but, but---where's the mob mentality? I tried your method of ignoring those I think are acting like a mob looking for a lynching but your post and Mel's are about all that's left. Things are a little sparse when I look at Knots, even the sysop and three of the moderators are on ignore.I'm sorry but, in this thread, I saw Charles called more and worse names than I ever saw him offer up. Charles serves a real legitimate function here. If you want to set yourself up as an authority, Charles is going to hold your feet to the fire. Those who are offended by this simply don't want Charles or anyone else looking to see who's really behind the curtain.I think I can say this with some experience. As far as I know, I'm the only person here who experienced Charles voicing his questions about me loudly here and taking those questions to other forums as well. The thing that annoyed me about it all was that I'd stupidly mentioned scraper sharpening techniques advocated by another person but I wanted to find their exact written instructions, which they had given me a few years earlier. That other person wasn't around to defend themselves and any potential ridicule was going to be my fault. I think Charles now acknowledges the expertise of this other person now that Charles is familiar with his work.
"I'm sorry but, in this thread, I saw Charles called more and worse names than I ever saw him offer up. Charles serves a real legitimate function here. If you want to set yourself up as an authority, Charles is going to hold your feet to the fire. Those who are offended by this simply don't want Charles or anyone else looking to see who's really behind the curtain."
Perfect.No representation without taxation
"California has real money problems"
Remember when West Virginia was the but of all jokes. Now one of the few states that has a balanced budget! Morgantown, WV has the lowest unemployment of any city in the United States. Business is booming.
Tink,
WV is an example to be followed. Congratulations on the fiscal responsible that the state has shown. You know, there are some difficult things to do in this world. One would be to make a Chippendale highboy. But more difficult than that would be to govern New York. I don't believe it is governable. BUT CALIFORNIA. It would be harder to govern California than to bring peace to the Middle East. I am happy about my retirement. I spend my time figuring out how to make more things out of wood. I don't spend so much time thinking about how I would govern California. The only thing I can come up with that might be helpful is for West Virginia to annex California, and then apply its policies to the west coast. Whaddyathink about that? (Now you see why I never aspired to become a politician. :-)Have fun.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Where did you find my post. I looked all over for and finally gave it up as unposted. I usually go right back to them to make corrections. In all fairness, I think New York and California governments are in a bit better shape than Somalia. Boy, this thread has gotten a bit off the subject from wood working.
Tink
"I usually go right back to them to make corrections. In all fairness, I think New York and California governments are in a bit better shape than Somalia. "I am worried that the people of Somalia will be upset with you for saying that. :-)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
California is screwed.
TT
Here's another political truism: "No matter who you vote for, it's always the government that gets elected"And the trouble with political jokes is that they sometimes get elected.
Dave,
Politically, you and I are soul-mates.I would rather argue "tails first or pins first" for the millionth time than get into a political discussion. And that is saying a lot. :-)Keep the faith.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Keep the faith.Mel
Yes I say God or whoever make us all, Makes us a bit better over time! Hell, the earth is what? '4. somethin' Billions years old! Or is that 3 something? Hardly matters in the way we think of time.
Makes us better over time... Then God thought of us woodworkers and gave up on T REX!
Will George,
I have long thought that Hollywood ought to do a history of the world as you would describe it.As I remember my conversation with the astrophysicists at NASA, the universe is between 13.5 and 15 Billion years old, give or take a few weeks. You talked of God getting better with practice. There is a story about a teenage boy who asked his mother:
"Mom, did God make grandma? His mother answered yes.
"Mom, did God make you?" His mother answered yes.
"Mom, did God nake Paris Hilton". His mother said Yes.
The kid said, "Wow, he is getting better with practice."Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel! You are so much fun!
"Mom, did God nake Paris Hilton".
My first thought at seeing Paris Hilton 'nake' as a child was as a baby girl that was just another crying child that needed help for a food and whatever.. And maybe a diaper change! And no parent to change it for her!
Somebody did, when the staff had nothing better to do I would suppose... And I am sure she may not remember those that tried to help her then and probably some hired staff that just loved her and earned minimum wage.. I am sure she will probably grow to be an adult...I have been working on beaing an adult fer' more that a few years! I for one thing she is a very smart girl but never had a PaPa like me to tell her off sometimes!
Edited 6/3/2009 8:45 pm by WillGeorge
You mentioned a birth and it brought to mind a conversation I had with my cousin the other day. On a cold blizzardy night, Easter Sunday, March 31, 1929 (now this was told to me as the truth) my dad took his young pregnant wife towards the hospital some 35 miles away. He got about half way and the snow drifts were getting deeper and deeper and finally the car wouldn't go any further. Now, this is western Nebraska and in January, you just don't walk away from your car in a bad blizzard but in late March the temps are higher and you can chance it. He had to walk to the nearest neighbor for help. I don't know the details but when he got back he had a new son. It was right around midnight so we never knew whether he had a March 31 birthday or if it was on April fools day. With all that, my sister and I were born at home. My cousin, who is now ninety years old lives on this same farm where my parents lived then.
Edited 6/4/2009 8:11 am ET by Tinkerer3
Edited 6/4/2009 8:13 am ET by Tinkerer3
I believe the story and I'd bet all kinds of babies were born in the snow, dirt and mud.. What makes us human.. The father and other clan around could pick up the very tired mother and the child or children and find some shelter where THEY could listen to a screaming child... And the women folk took over from there...
I was told by my Mother... I was born becaue she could not put up with me anymore!
EDIT:
Now, this is western Nebraska and in January..
I have seen that in Chicago in April!
Edited 6/4/2009 5:46 am by WillGeorge
No, this is western Nebraska on March 31, or April 1 when you would expect more moderate temperatures. In a bad blizzard in January, with sub zero temperatures, you wouldn't want to leave your car. When I was in HS we had one of those storms. One of my teachers was in it with her brother. They had sense to stay in the car and lived. When the storm lifted, they realized they were about 100 yards from a farm house. Two other folks didn't heed the warning, left their cars and were later found frozen to death. Yes, I realize Illinois gets cold too.
Edited 6/4/2009 11:02 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Edited 6/4/2009 11:03 pm ET by Tinkerer3
In a bad blizzard in January, with sub zero temperatures, you wouldn't want to leave your car.
Yes I understand.. I got stuck in a huge snowstorm way back.. In Pampa Texas.. The snow covered the car and was hit by a snow plow! I THOUGHT I pulled off the road!
Oh wow, When did the snow plow driver figure out that the drift was really a car? You tend to think of Texas being a warm climate. But the coldest night I've ever spent in my life was at Camp Bliss, Texas. It was the coldest night of the year, (12º), and we were camping out on bivouac without enough clothes. I'm sure my body temperature went way down. At my present age, I'd never survive. This was early January but by February, it got up to 90º.
Edited 6/6/2009 9:07 am ET by Tinkerer3
But the coldest night I've ever spent in my life was at Camp Bliss, Texas.
Mine was at Fort Hood. It had rained before it got really cold most of us got frozen to the ground in our sleeping bags.
Also, survival training in Death Valley. I could not believe how cold you could get at night....
Oh yuck. I thought the reason Death Valley was so named was because of the heat. If it gets that cold, that makes it doubly hazardous. I just crossed that place off as a possibility of where to live.
Edited 6/6/2009 10:33 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Edited 6/7/2009 2:23 pm ET by Tinkerer3
I did also!
I remember from reading back in school days about some dessert 'I think in Africa' that has the most daily variable temperature. It is something like 130º in the daytime and near freezing at night. Yuck, yuck.
Edited 6/7/2009 2:29 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Mel;
Since this string has totally broke.....so forgive my indulgence....My heroes were the original Mercury 7, then I found out about Chuck Yager and Chuck Colsen and the rest of the test pilots that survived and died..
I was crushed by the fire on Apollo. Crushed again when there was no continuity after Apollo and the Shuttle. All the pilots that followed in Apollo and the Space Shuttle, I revere. I am flummoxed again with the end of Shuttle and the lag before Arien.You were involved in this?
Is it possible to discuss here or some place else?
Best,
TT
TT,
Feel free to discuss NASA's history either here or by sending me a personal email. Either is fine with me. I was at NASA from 1979 until last year. The first two decades were in technology development, and the last decade was in Space Science. I dealt with most parts of NASA including the Manned Program. NASA is a government agency. As such, it gets it funding from Congress, and it gets orders from congress and the Administration each year. Many of the disappointments that you described were felt by millions of others. I think that NASA does a great job, given that its budget is reshaped every year. You indicated that you think the Shuttle is going away soon. I wouldn'tt bet your house on that just yet. There is a chance it will be here for a while longer. Let's wait and see what happens with the new NASA Administrator, who is of course, an Astronaut. NASA was started in order to "beat the Russians". As a result, much money was put in NASA's hands. essentially a blank check. We don't have a situation like that any more. The country faces, as you well know, some massive fiscal problems. I hope that given all of this, that enough money can be provided to NASA to continue doing its great work. If I sound biased here, it is because I am. Hope that helps. I am glad to hear your sentiments.
Have fun. Keep the faith.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel I am not worthy,next time i speak up , slap me down and I wil be grateful. I think you were the Heroes & Gods in the 60's and 70's. Mercury, Titan -Gemini, with those tiny computers,and big plans - and then Apollo???? Apolo?Slide rules, number 2 pencils and code....If you were there you have to start a thread............you were there, right? You are history! How lucky can you be?
NAsA what a whif of rarefied air that you only breathe once in a life time.
You are so lucky, lucky, lucky....................dam you are so liuck!TT
TT,
I am a very lucky guy to have had a thirty year career at NASA. I worked with some great folks from each of the NASA Centers throughout the US, and with space agencies of Canada, Japan, France, Germany, and Italy. I got to work with both the Manned Space Program, and the Space Science program. I wouldn't trade that for anything. As always, the future is impossible to predict at NASA. The NASA Administrator works for the President. So the Administration sets the priorities, and Administrations change. The Administration proposes budgets, then Congress gets involved. That often makes for a strange brew, but somehow, smart people come through and the Agency does great stuff.So what about the future? When will Shuttle end? What will it be replaced by? Who knows? I tend to think that the US will not retire Shuttle and leave a long hiatus before the replacement is ready. But that means keeping an old fleet going, and that is risky. I wish them good fortune and Godspeed, as you do. I miss my NASA friends, but I am thoroughly enjoying retirement. It is always great to find folks who support NASA, as you do. You remember the old days of the engineers in white shirts and slide rules. One of the big thrills of my career was knowing Gene Kranz. Remember the guy who said "Failure is not an option"? Ah, I used to have NASA. Now I have Knots. Life is good. :-)
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You Knew Gene Krantz? Wow, did you speak with him often? You are so lucky. He started as the assistant to Chris Craft in Cape Canaveral when the blockhouse was also Mission Control. He amazed me by being able to grow from firing suborbital Redstones to the Saturn 5. I was at Cape Kennedy on tour when the second from the last Saturn Five was going through Plugs Out simulation. The tour started early afternoon and we visited all the launch pads by bus I remember the flame deflection gizmo used for Alan Shepard's launch was about 3 feet high. At the end of the tour we came to the 350 foot tall Saturn Five. After Dark -but lit up like a white torch with spotlights. God it was the most impressive sight I have ever seen. Oh ya, and the flame deflector was about five stories tall and hundreds of feet long!The guys launching these vehicles were still using slide rules and plastic pocket protectors were all the rage!
I am in awe of of Gene Kranta and Chris Craft and the guys that launched these monsters. You were one lucky SOB to have been there!
(Sorry to all the Knots guys trying to stay on topic, Mell is one of those All American Heroes I only read about!)
With respects,
TT
TT,
I don't think anyone is worried about keeping this thread on topic. You were involved in NASA work prior to me. You were in on the BIG SHOW - The Atlas V. I didn't get to NASA until 1979. When I met Gene Kranz in about 1986, I believe he headed up Mission Control. He was at a MUCH HIGHER Level than I was. I was working with one of his key people who headed up the INCO (Integrated Communications) section of Mission COntrol. This guy had an idea on how to automate a part of mission control, and he came to my technology program for funding and sponsorship to develop the system to add the automation. At that time, Mission Control had a central computer, and each of the stations was a simply a terminal which was connected to the central computer. If that computer went down, there was a back up, ready to take over. What we did was to develop an INCO system which got its own computer, its own data stream from Shuttle, and its own processors for handling the data stream both up and down. The INCO we developed worked completely independently of the rest of mission control. THIS WAS A RADICAL IDEA at Johnson Space Center. At the time, Gene was not for the idea. He wanted humans doing the thinking. Well the JSC folks did a test of the new INCO system. THey took a recent shuttle mission and the test began. During the test, everything was going well. THen they inserted a major fault. They shut down the main computer. That was a scary thing back then, because it took time to switch to the backup computer. BUT the INCO workstation was not affected by the central computer going down. It operated normally while everyone else was at a standstill.You can guess what happened. The idea of "Distributed Computing" was introduced. Each discipline, such as INCO, later got its own computer, and its own backup. Obviously the maker of the central computer was not happy with this turn of events.In any case, the rest is history. I was lucky enough to be a part of the development which led to the changing of Mission Control from a Central Computer system to a distributed system. Believe it or not, that entire episode was written up in WIRED magazine. That was a hoot. You can tell that I am VERY VERY PROUD of my time at NASA. I am thrilled to know that you were there in the days prior to me -- at the time of the BIG ROCKETS. I sure would like to meet you someday. Where are you in Eastern Connecticut? I was brought up in Windsor Locks, and I go back every once in a while to see my Dad. Is there any chance we could get together for a few hours the next time I get up there?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You were in on the BIG SHOW ..
I was also but just an Army grunt during the Cuban thing.. I was really afraid we would ALL go up in smoke. We had tactical nukes and we went when they did.. I think.. Big dust piles on both sides.. I would think.. I was Kisersaluten? Germany at the time...
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&ei=FRAnStTsPIrWMI6-jLQF&resnum=0&q=Germany+Kaiserslautern&um=1&ie=UTF-8&split=0&gl=us&ei=GRAnSsTUCaG-NOiXyYQF&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1
And you said JSC (whoever that is).. Did.. The idea of "Distributed Computing" was introduced.
I wonder if the Military ever thought of The idea of "Distributed Computing" was introduced by Husband and Wife and our families and friends? And the top offices never asked us grunts for ideas on how to handle things! I am sure we could do better!
But Our President had the balls of a old bull and his Enemy Russian had big balls also but both were NOT FOOLS!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
Thinking back I was just 19 or 20? and wanted us ALL to live!
Did you say, "Atlas V?' In my home town, Pine Bluffs, Wyoming, they put in an Atlas. Was it one of a few or maybe the only one. I think they had tours of the plant but I never bothered. Just a few years later they put in a Minuteman system in the region with, I think, a hundred missile sites which is active to this date. One of the control cables crosses my farm back there and periodically I get messages from the Air Force. At the time it was built, they told us that one missile possessed more fire power than that used by both sides on all wars to date including Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Hope one doesn't explode on my back yard.
Edited 6/4/2009 8:09 am ET by Tinkerer3
See if you can get a tour, seriously! If you have stuff on your land they have to give you "the show", hay, can I be a relative? I would love to see it. That's the rocket that launched John Glenn, Wally Schira, Deke Slaton and Gordo Cooper. I would love to see that rocket!!TT
Know the difference between a rocket and a missels?
Missels are defence, Rockets are NASA Launchers.
No Mell;
I am the FAN you are the Patriot. I followed every launch from the TV since I was 8. Read every book I could get my hands on, Gene wrote an excellent book on his time at NASA. In 1957 Walter Cronkite was "the Voice." Jupeter "C's" and "Junos" blowing up on the launch pad which only made NASA braver, stronger and more determined. Brought guys with the right stuff along like you that made shuttle, Hubble and the unmanned things happen.Man If I was smart enough, and could do it all over again, I would have worked at NASA.As far as the "Patriot" tag it is well known that while 500,000 people were employed to make Rockets, very few got to the top of the pyramid. If you spoke to or worked directly or indirectly for "Flight", you were about at the top of that thing.Very few people served at that level, HEROS all.Tip of the hat'TT
TT,
We share a common dream, and we appreciate a rich heritage.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel;
Your right. NASA is "the stuff which dreams are made of" (Bogart/Casablanca)
Tip of the hat,
TT
Sorry/Correction: that was "Maltese Falcon"
But it was a dramatic statement!
TT
Mel,
There is a new Challenger to Arien (like you didn't know)- something using a space capusl atop of a shuttle,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but I know nothing. Tell us some great stuff!!
Mel,
You wrote:
"NASA is a government agency. As such, it gets it funding from Congress, and it gets orders from congress and the Administration each year."
So, the shuttle replacement will be engineered by the president, financed by Freddie Mac, insured by AIG, jointly built by Chrysler and GM, and will be a hybrid-fueled Fiat getting 45 mpg? I heard Joey Biden is slated to pilot the 1st test flight..
Ray
Ray,
How did you find out about the Fiat role in the new shuttle? Are you one of them govermint agents? MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
"Are you one of them govermint agents?"
Au contraire, I begin to suspect I might be on one of their watch lists. What's it mean when they come to your front door with a GPS and tag you with it?
Ray
Ray,
I thought you got rid of the still.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Gol-derned revenooers.
Ray
Ray,
I can just see you playing the real world role of Robert Mitchum in Thunder Road.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
What are you suggesting? In the real world, Bob Mitchum is dead...
haha I know what you meant.
The Ballad of Derek of Perth
(with apologies to "The Ballad of Thunder Road")
Let me tell the story, I can tell it all
About the Aussie shrink,
And his hand tool fol-de-rol.
Sometimes 'twas a hand-plane, sometimes a replacement blade;
As he polished its back flat, he was shining up his creds.
Each time a review was posted, his fan club gave him laud,
And waited for his next post to descend from an ether-eal cloud.
And it was Derek! Derek! O'er the internet.
The sage of Perth has handsaws he hasn't reviewed yet.
And there are proto-types with issues that need a cure;
Is he on L-N's payroll? Nobody knows for sure.
Ray
Ray,
I DIDN'T KNOW THAT BOB MITCHUM IS DEAD.
I thought he would live forever. THere is a parlor game in which one of the questions is: Which movie star would you pick to play you when they make a movie of your life? Darn. It was going to be Robert Mitchum. Unless they do it as a musical, in which case, I wanted Nelson Eddy and Jeanette McDonald to play my wife and I. Don't tell me they are gone too. My Got, who is left? I may be stuck with a woodworking rapper. Your song about Derek is ready for Prime Time. Have you thought about moving to Nashville? Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, the fumes are getting to you; maybe too much rocket fuel over the years. Sorry, but I gotta hit the "ignore" button. I can't take it any longer; my reality and your perception exist in different universes.
I wish you no ill will, but i think you are "out there" . . . . . and almost every post of yours I read I end up doing a slow moaning groan . . . . . . . . . .
Adios hombre. Patrick
Why in the world would you have to announce this? Afraid Mel would worry if you weren't responding to him? If so, send him an e-mail. Your public ridicule of Mel seems rather petty.
Sean, well, I suppose it is out of sheer frustration. Some of the posters here (you for example) post substantive comments and information that is generally on point, helpful and, to use one of them legalesse words, relevant. Others (remeber the original subject of THIS thread) appear to have passive-aggressive personalities or anger management issues . . . . . or some darn issue . . . that seem to compel them to behave in a way that is designed to evoke a visceral response (start a fight, perhaps?).
Mel, from my perspective, is probably a nice enough guy, and probably well intentioned, but his posts are either 1) a shill for Woodcraft (search "I work part time at Woodcraft" for a gazillion hits) and their products, 2) "I used to work at Nasa, so . . . . ." or, most frequently, 3) the willy nilly, pollyannish, touchy feely, can't we all get along and sing cumbaya and other "noise" . . . . which are the ones that drive me nuts, as they pertain to anything but woodworking.
I think that sums it up; it is simply frustration with what I feel are endless comments about how he feels about this, that or whatever . . . and seldom are they succinct. Ironic you object to me posting my feelings about someone else continuously (ad nauseum) posting about his feelings. The 3 of us are entitled to think or feel how we want; should you so choose, you may do unto me what I did unto Mel . . . ie, hit the "ignore" button.
Finally, I am not sure I accept your basic premise that my post constituted ridicule, YMMV. I am not contending it was complimentary, but it weren't no Boss Crunk-style love note either.
Patrick
Patrick,
You might need to look up the word "ridicule." As in stultify, deride, humiliate, etc.
I don't agree with your characterizations of Mel. I've never taken his posts about Woodcraft as being any sort of shilling. In fact, some seem to be rather the opposite. It's just one place he runs into woodworking issues.
Relating things he picked up while at NASA, again seems natural to me. We are all the product of our lifetime's experiences and relate to one another by recounting things we have experienced.
As for the weird goofy stuff, call me crazy, but interesting stuff often comes out of the weirdest places and associations. I've been to other woodworking forums that just seem to be all business as far as no one ever straying an inch from policital correctness and thread subjects, etc. It's boring and bland to me - no comraderie or spirit. Mel may quirky, but he certainly has a good heart and a good spirit. He's sincere. I like that.
I only "ignore" the know nothing twits. There are only a handful of them, and there is nothing to miss by not reading them.
And the Boss, you know it's funny the folks who like him: Ray, Larry, etc. Go through this thread and see. What do you think those folks have in common, eh?
You may have heard the expression truth in jest - things aren't funny if there is not a kernel of truth in them. There's an aspect of that in many of Boss' posts - they wouldn't sting at all, if there weren't some truth in them.
Best,
Sean
Mel may quirky, but he certainly has a good heart and a good spirit. He's sincere. I like that. Sean,
It seems that in one sentence you have largely captured Mel. Three months ago I was in DC on business and gave Mel a call to see if he had time for coffee,(with his working at WOODCRAFT two half days a week) we ended up spending the whole day visiting and talking. I don't want to reveal to much on this post as I have told Mel I would like to start a post with the pictures of he and I on our venture and some other things that I would like to reveal. After a great lunch we went to his house where I got to see his shop, his projects, and the computer room and chair where he does all his big thinking. Mel was a great host and is a great conversationalist. I can tell you Mel really does not take himself or knots all that serious, he does try to have fun, learn, and help other when he can. I can't say that I have agreed with everything he has said on knots, but he does have a good heart and a good spirit. By the way, he did have some rather nice things to say about you during our visit. Jay
"Quality is not only right, it is free. And it is not only free, it is the most profitable product line we have". (Harold S. Geneen)
Jay,
I thoroughly enjoyed your visit. Glad you had a good time seeing some of woodworking places around here. I am also glad you don't always agree with me. That would make life dull. Please feel free to post the photos of your visit. I hope you come back sometime.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Sean,
That was nice of you to respond to StPatrick's message to me. I have seen some of his messages, but I don't remember anything about them. So I did a search on "StPatrick" and found a bunch of message to and from him. There seems to be a commonality to his messages. StPatrick wasn't treating me differently than he treats others. A man named Hendo sent a message to Patrick a while back, which cut to the quick. Here is a copy of Hendo's message:*********
From: Hendo 9/22/2008 12:56 am
To: stpatrick (35 of 35)
43447.35 in reply to 43447.20 STPatrick-
One characteristic that all good attorneys share is the ability to control their emotions, especially when confronting an opponent.I would urge you to take the temper tantrums and name calling elsewhere. If you can't remain civil, you really don't belong here.Now lets get back to woodworking.-TH
*********Hendo's response to Patrick was quite civil, quite restrained, and quite reasonable. I am not offended by Patrick's message, and am not disappointed that he is going to ignore me. The reason that I looked up some of his messages is because of your response to his message to me. I thought you would like to know that you are not the only one who responds to Patrick as you did. I sincerely hope that Patrick doesn't get excommunicated from Knots by Gina for his behavior. I don't believe it would do any good. He is far more likely to make progress in resolving his negative behaviors if he continues to do his thing here on Knots and then receives feedback such that which you and Hondo gave him. Shalom brother,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
FG ,
My favorite old Chinese lunch spot now closed , had the stickiest tables I have ever had such fine meals at .
I watched the owners spraying and wiping the tables clean . I thought bleach or something like it is used with the water but perhaps it is a solution of chemicals . You could literally scrape the surface film with your finger nails .
I am pretty sure this is not caused from bad batches or uncured finishes in general . The tables at Jade East were Formica .
I asked them if they could wipe my table off one day , thats when the they told me it won't come off . Think about it , it has probably like 20,000 coats of film with a bit of soap and a bit of grease and Ammonia or Bleach binding each one together .
Finishes can certainly go bad but I think I'd use something to cut the surface film and remove not just re-amalgamate what's there .
regards dusty
my guess is the ventilation in the restaurant may not be adequate especially if they cook those type of greasy foods
I do think it is pretty silly to post that he has been banned. It only invites all this silliness. I didn't know Boss was Charles, but Charles was certainly nasty enough to get asked off the board for me.
AS any misbehaving chld knows, negative attention (as all this is) is just as satisying as positive.
Gretchen
This thread ought to be closed--or deleted.
Edited 5/31/2009 6:10 pm ET by Gretchen
"THe rest of Knots seems to be in agreement that attempting to banish him was not a good thing."
The above is not a true statement.
"THe rest of Knots seems to be in agreement that attempting to banish him was not a good thing." Geeeeez Louise, the scientist in me insisted on going back and looking at all 100+ posts and taking a count. I get 18 people approves of action taken and 5 against the action taken. If I take out 5 "approves" whose statements could be construed as less than definite, that give us:
Approves of SysOp move: 13
Disapproves of SysOp move: 5
I did not count people who simply agreed with what I suggested, which was to ignore obnoxious people. I did count myself as someone who approves.
Glad Mel doesn't count our ballots at the polls.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl
For the record, I support Taunton's decision. I believe that the Boss adds value but I support Tauton's decision....not that it matters.
If you had the two categories as "supports/disapproves of BossCrunk's contributions as a whole" I would be in the category that supports that too.
No representation without taxation
Edited 5/29/2009 11:31 am ET by MattInPA
"...not that it matters." Au contraire! Of course it matters.....forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
For the record, I too support Tauton's decision. We're here at the pleasure of our hosts and if we must abide by their rules if we desire this place to remain.
Why the argument over whether someone's posts add value or not. It has nothing to do with the situation.A policeman can be on the force for years and make substantial contributions to society, but if he commits a serious crime, he is fired.Did he add value? Yes.
Did he do the crime? Yes
Is he fired for cause? YesThe argument that he was a value to the community is irrelevant.
Why the argument over whether someone's posts add value or not. It has nothing to do with the situation.
A policeman can be on the force for years and make substantial contributions to society, but if he commits a serious crime, he is fired.
Did he add value? Yes.Did he do the crime? YesIs he fired for cause? Yes
The argument that he was a value to the community is irrelevant.
You are correct - that is why.
Now, can we move on to something interesting?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
The funniest thing about all of this has to be that ForestGirl actually "tallied the vote."Un-freaking-believable.I'll bet she used her new Frizzly 'Industrial' Vote Tallying Machine. I hear the customer service on the thing is unequaled anywhere.It's all about customer service (what's that phone number again, please?)Jeez, what a strange lot WE ALL are!I do laugh at myself everyday but I have to admit some days it's hard not to laugh at you guys more.Cheers!I suppose my hell will be being locked up in a room with some D-2 steel, one oilstone, and a stack of tool reviews written by Derek that I'm forced to read repeatedly in between bouts of sharpening steel (with the Charlesworth Ruler Trick) that'll never get used (or sharp).
Edited 5/29/2009 5:51 pm ET by HollowGrind
Hi, Charles.
DCB, you TCB?
Let's be nice to FG now..........John
Hey Charlie.. drop by Tops and pick up a pound or so of that Que.. it goes well with reviews and well..... about everything really. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Have a good week-end...
Sarge..
Edited 5/29/2009 7:23 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sheeiittt... we just had some - no kidding!
Of course you did.. it's Friday night isn't it? No Top's.. had to settle for Gunter's to-night (now Hometown since Stanley retired and off chasing rattle-snakes on round-ups) which has been putting it on the grill to smoke since the 50"s. Blackstocks closed a few years ago as both were outstanding.
Got some late night rabbets to cut so.. take care.
Sarge..
Like Tom Sawyer at his own funeral, eh?
How's the baby?
You gettin any sleep?
Cheers!
She's doing great, but not getting tons of sleep. Thanks for asking!
When someone writes "the vast majority", it seems to me somebody should do a tally, LOL! Maybe his "vast majority" is silent, who knows. Ahhhhhhh, you've been a member for all of two days. I sense a lurking dual-identity here.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 5/29/2009 9:14 pm by forestgirl
It's perfectly in character and it's what makes you 'Jamie.'
Don't change.
You can move on whenever you want. But at 170 posts, this is apparently one of the more interesting things here.
Why the argument over whether someone's posts add value or not. It has nothing to do with the situation.A policeman can be on the force for years and make substantial contributions to society, but if he commits a serious crime, he is fired.Did he add value? Yes.
Did he do the crime? Yes
Is he fired for cause? YesThe argument that he was a value to the community is irrelevant.
I don't know why I'm writing this a second time because you didn't read it the first. I support Taunton's decision. In fact I went out of my way to make certain that I was in the proper column in Forestgirl's tally.
At no point did I say that he shouldn't have been suspended or should be reinstated. I haven't asked for a vote. I haven't asked for reconsideration. I haven't even asked what the specific violation is. All I've argued is that he adds value. Many people are of the opinion that he didn't. He did. He will.
Keep up the good work
Matt
No representation without taxation
Edited 5/29/2009 2:42 pm ET by MattInPA
"THe rest of Knots seems to be in agreement that attempting to banish him was not a good thing. I heartily recommend that you "un-banish him"I can't tell...but I am hoping you are being sarcastic.
FWW:
What did he say to get banned? I did a search on his comments and didn't find anything that deserves him being banned.
He must have said something unforgivable?
TT
I think I'll just round this out to 200. Slainte.
richardjonesfurniture.com
Edited 5/30/2009 5:59 pm by SgianDubh
Someone deleted #199. That makes you 199 and makes me 200.
Ain't woodworking fun? <Gr>............
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled