I have been doing a lot of sizable tenons lately and have been relying on my 1″ chisel for sizing them accurately. I know that a plane would do a much nicer job with greater ease, so I am looking at what’s available. Shoulder planes seem to be too narrow, so I’ve narrowed my search down to a rabbet block plane and skew rabbet planes. Is there a significant advantage to the skewed version, and if I go this route, is there need to acquire both left and right models?
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
– Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. – Albert Schweitzer
Replies
Hi Chris
Having both blockplanes from LN, the rabbet (a special at Woodcraft I could not pass up) and the skew (a restoration I did with LN from derelict item on eBay), I would plump for the rabbet. The skew cuts better, and the fence cxan help with other tasks (so a useful little plane), but the rabbet is the less fussy plane to use.
An alternative to both is a joinery float, such as the LN Face Joinery Float. This works well. Or just use a rasp.
Review of the float here ..
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Lie%20Nielsen%20Face%20Joinery%20Float.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
Chris,
I prefer the shoulder plane for this job. The heft of it is what makes it cut so easily. You can get a large one with a 1-1/4 wide blade from LV or LN. Or search for an old Record.
I have a Stanley #140 skew plane. The skew makes it cut easier through figured wood. It's just like when you skew your regular block plane. It changes the angle of attack. I'm not sure you need to aquire a right and left.
One other plane I use for long tenons is a Stanley #78 rabbet plane. I have two and have set one to a very fine cut. I feel it works well because I can control it better with two hands.
Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
Chris, I take it that you are woodworking to eat, so I must ask why are you not cutting tenons accurately in the first place instead of spending time adjusting them?
Philip,
Actually, I am not currently working wood to feed myself, but plan to in the near future. When cutting tenons on small manageable stock, I do so on the table saw and make test cuts to get the perfect size. However, sometimes the workpiece is too large to use the table saw and I then find myself cutting them by hand, though I suppose I could use a router. I would rather make the joint too tight and sneak up on the perfect fit than make it too loose and have to slip in veneer.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Flairwoodworks,
Phillip makes a great point....I had to learn it the hard way.
I was making my tenons on the TS and then switched to the bandsaw but both surfaces were rough and needed to be fitted. I bought the LN rabbit block plane about 6 months ago and I simply love it, two passes and the tenon is smooth and ready to go.
Then I started thinking maybe I'd get a better tenon with the tenon jig. Sure enough with a bit of tuning it does produce a beautiful smooth tenon...don't need the rabbit block plane so much any more...rats! Actually, i do use it a lot for any block plane application.
Chris,
Yesterday, I read a message to another person which insulted my writing on Knots. - overly nice woodworking pap in the style of Rotary club speeches (or something like that). WELL THAT DOES IT. NOW I'M MAD AND I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE.
All these other fools who tried to answer your question have their heads in their armpits. Everyone with any woodworking experience and a modicum of common sense knows that there is ONLY ONE WAY to trim a tenon. You use a ROUTER PLANE.
The router plane rests on the outside face of the board, and it trims the tenon in a plane which is perfectly parallel to the outside face of the board. No plane which rests on the tenon can do this. Same with a the LN joinery floats. TO USE SUCH TOOLS IS INSANE!
SO get with the plan and get a nice router plane, and the job will be done right! This is a well known fact in woodworking that seems to have been hidden from all of these hacks here in Knotsworld.
OF COURSE, if you were to desire to become a serious woodworker, you wouldn't even use a router plane, you would buy the only REAL tenoning jig that has ever been made - the Delta 34-172. You can see a photo of that on:
http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-34-172.html
While Delta no longer makes this jig, you can still get it on EBay every once in a while. I CANNOT imagine a serious woodworker not having the 172. EVERTHING ELSE IS JUNK ---- PURE JUNK.
The 172 weighs more than 30 pounds. (I think you Canadians use 'stones' rather than pounds. That is more than 2 stones.) I remember reading about the 172 before I got mine. A guy said that he could clamp a 5' long oak 2"x6" board at 45 degrees and cut a tenon perfectly with no movement of the board. I haven't tried that yet because my ceiling is too low. BUT I gotta tell you, the 172 is a BEAST. Current tenoning jigs are wimpy pieces of pot metal when compared to the 172. Let me put this in real Canadian terms. The 172 is to current tenoning jigs as Wayne Gretzky is to hockey.
NOW, have we got that straight? If you can't understand what I have said, you should switch out of woodworking to something simpler.
Now get on the stick, and let's get this right. From now on, there is no need to post a question to everyone. Just send it to me and I will give you the one true and correct answer. God speaks to me about such things, and she does not speak to the others.
Mel
PS How am I doing as a curmudgeon? :-) This is fun. It is so easy to be nasty, even if I don't mean it.
PPS I really do have a 172, and I love it. Philip was right. Cut the tenon right the first time (which means that your boards do have to be properly machined, and you won't have to do any trimming.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Good attempt, Mel. But your heart really isn't in it I'm afraid.
To be a Boss, well, ya just gotta come by it naturally. That's why he generally is never offensive to me personally. I do at time pick up an offense for others, but that's my bent.
OK. For smaller furniture (defined as length of rail and or tenon as opposed to width of rail), the fastest most accurate means of completing a tenon for me was a WoodRat. Both M&T, extremely quick and accurate. However, the table saw and Delta tenoning jig saw lots of use as well. The only thing quicker than the above for making tenons was a tenoning head on the shaper.
But...for a lot of the so-called hand-made furniture I did, I hand sawed the bloody things. The odd tenon that didn't fit took seconds to tune with a common file or fine rasp.
Any of the above methods work. To think one is inherently more accurate is a mistake. Any of them takes getting use to, ya know, practice on scrap. Then, a bit of wasting a piece of scrap on a given project is a good thing. Of them all, the WoodRat was probably the easiest as one simply is working to lines much of the time. Accurate measuring and marking is a key no matter the method.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
I agree with everything you said. I was just being colorful in giving the two techniques that I use most - the BIG OLD DELTA tenoning jig, and the router plane when I need to make a tweak.
But it takes some practice to make either of those two things work. With practice, of course, one learn's to get one's tenons right earlier and easier.
As you said, measuring and marking are crucially important for making mortices. One needs a great deal of rigor in doing this. That is why they coined the term "Rigor Mortice". :-)
Have fun.
Mel
PS you once gave me advice on making a bow saw. A few months ago, Woodcraft decided to discontinue its line, so I got one with a set of blades very cheap. Now I see why they are discontinuing that line. But it has been fun finding out what you can and can't do with the various blades.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I like your story about the rigors of mortising. Did you know, (pursuant to another thread here on Knots) that if you only had the proper chisels, you could be happy when cutting a mortise? Hence the old woodworking saying, oft misrepeated, "the mortiser, the merrier."
Ray
Ray,
I hate to admit it, but that was really funny.
Who writes your stuff? I'll bet it is your wife.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
If by some chance ya needs to fine tune your tenon why not use a #78. Then ya kin twittle with yer knicker when ye git near yur shoulders.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"Cut the tenon right the first time (which means that your boards do have to be properly machined, and you won't have to do any trimming."
Chop a mortise with a dedicated mortising chisel, and cut the tenon with your hand saws, and then come talk to me about "right the first time," smart guy. I think you'll quickly find that trimming to a perfect fit is the way to go.
Samson,
English is a wonderfully opaque, mysterious, and ambiguous!
"Cut the tenon right the first time (which means that your boards do have to be properly machined, and you won't have to do any trimming.""
Did you take those words to mean that the work was done with chisels, or with a table saw?
Sometimes beauty (and other things) are in the eyes of the beholder. Me, I use my table saw to make tenons. If my boards are straight, flat, and of equal thickness, and I set my OLD Delta tenoning jig well using that stock, then I can get those tenons pretty close. I cut my mortices using a router and a homemade Frid-type U-shaped jig.
Hope that explains it.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Yes, those were my assumptions, my friend. And that was my point - the rather flip suggestion of "doing it right the first time may be appropriate for the "machinist/batch production" approach, but not so much for the "cut and fit each individual joint with hand tools" approach.
The thing is Samson that with a bit of practice, it's not too hard to chop and saw any of the standard mortice and tenon joints to fit first time pretty much every time. I used to do it frequently in my early days of furniture making, but I admit I nowadays mostly set up and do a run on the machines. Still from time to time it's quicker to mark out and cut an M&T, especially if it's just a one-off or perhaps two: I usually manage a first time fit even now, and I consider myself rather out of practice with hand cutting the joint. Nowadays I mostly cut the joint by hand for demonstration purposes with a gaggle of learners watching; I suppose there's a certain pride on my part, and a bit of pressure, to get that first time fit to show the learners it's possible.
From my experiences of disassembling, cleaning up and repairing old and antique furniture over the years it's my impression that probably 95% of all the hand cut examples of M&T's I come across fitted first time. The still visible saw marks indicate the tenons fitted straight off the saw.
However, I suspect there's also an element of a machinist like precision in a contemporary woodworkers mindset that workers from earlier eras didn't have. I believe there's more latent or inherent strength in a mortice and tenon than perhaps some contemporary woodworkers give credence to. A less than perfect example, ie, a tiny bit on the sloppy side I suppose, seems to hold up pretty well, and perhaps the old workers were aware of this and used the knowledge to advantage. Of course what I've just said about woodworkers from earlier days is essentially speculation on my part. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
"The thing is Samson that with a bit of practice, it's not too hard to chop and saw any of the standard mortice and tenon joints to fit first time pretty much every time."
Thank you for making that point to Samson. I tried but but he didn't believe me. The next thing I was going to do was to sic Boss Crunk on him. But you are just as scary as the Boss.
Good to talk to you again.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I'm not scary. I'm far too gentle with my counterpoints and suggestions of an alternative angle.
So your post was just flat wrong and a load of old cobblers. Er, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Ah Richard,I love English. It allows such a rich array of interpretations. Ambiguity is what keeps us all going here on Knots.What I meant is that you are influential.
Your words would surely cause Samson to see the light (that is, to come to my point of view. :-) MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks, I don't disagree with anything you say. I am currently making some reasonably large through tenons that will be wedged, and had them in mind as I wrote. In order to have a really clean fit on the exit side, I went a bit slow and was happy to pare the tenons a bit to a perfect neat fit rather than hope for perfection straight from the large tenon saw. Is suppose it's just that I'm a hack hobbiest, but then again, I'm in no hurry and gain no great satisfaction or boost to my self worth by avoiding the extra (maybe) 5 minutes to test fit and pare a bit.
"A less than perfect example, ie, a tiny bit on the sloppy side I suppose, seems to hold up pretty well, and perhaps the old workers were aware of this and used the knowledge to advantage. Of course what I've just said about woodworkers from earlier days is essentially speculation on my part".
I certainly hope so-lest A certain Cherub floats down from heaven and sits on you.Philip Marcou
I'm an elusive target philip, and also very difficult to 'sit on'.
I'm happy to maintain that many hand cut M&T's from earlier centuries were not 'engineered' to absolute precision, which is what modern woodworkers, especially amateur ones, often seem to aim for. I only know it because over far too many decades now I've pulled apart too much old furniture not to notice things like original saw marks on tenon faces and evidence of mortice chisel marks on the cheeks of mortices. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Oh I agree. I have also seen a few tenons that were fattened up a bit by use of slips of veneer at best and not even wood at worst.
Just couldn't help visualising dear Adam taking exception - I even squeezed a crocodile tear on your behalf .Philip Marcou
Richard,
You do know that Cherub aint just ini old one.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I do Bob. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Morning Richard,
What say you about using a #78? Really spice things up a tad.
Honin me knickers,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 8/12/2008 7:23 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
I've never thought to use one on tenons Bob. I use them a bit for rebates and the like.
I guess that's not really very spicy, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
tenons: saw (hand or band), file or float, done. what's the question anyway?
sykesville,
you asked: what's the question anyway?Why do we need a question? The answer is to talk. Sometimes questions stimulate talk, but the people around here don't need to be pushed into talking. They just do it. There is a thread with more than 3600 posts, and the original question was only around for the first few of the posts. The rest are self-generating. Doncha just love this place. It kind of reminds me of the Italian dinners that my extended family had all the years I was growing up. Maybe 60 people. Many of them talking at the same time. Talking was important. Listening was nice, but not critical. But if you want a question, I can generate some. How about this one.Just how tight is "piston fit"? Wouldn't it be great if Wixie or LV or LN came up with a device that measured the pressure needed to insert a tenon at a number of points along the tenon on all four sides. A computer readout would let you know how much to pare and from where, OR you could just hook it up to your CNC machine and do the paring automatically. Should the government step in and certify professional woodworkers?No. Let's skip that question. That one is more for the cafe.Is there a correlation between how much money a woodworker spends on tools and how long he lives? If money buys contentment, and contentment breeds longevity, spending money on tools should be a good thing.If you need more questions, just let me know.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Well! now that you are in the proper frame of mind I would like to raise the question of "shellac". :>).
d
You have a well developed sense of humor.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hey Mel,
I have one of those suckers that I salvaged from the dump! Yeah, that's right, the junk pile! It is one of the best finds I have ever made. I never poke through the junk piles but, this thing just screamed save me. I did and I love it! There, I feel so much better for letting the word know my secret:)
Bob
Tupper Lake, NY
Bob,
Congratulations. That is a great find.
I got mine for nothing too. My brother bought a decrepit house to knock down, and then build new on the lot. The basement of the house had some tools including the big old Delta tenoning jig. I cleaned it up. A great find. Below is a photo.
Thanks for letting me know.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
After my dad died, I ended up with two of the old Delta tenoning jigs. I may have to separate them, though, to distribute the weight, as the concrete floor in the shop is starting to crack. ;-) The new Delta jig appears to be far easier to adjust, but seems downright flimsy in comparison. I always thought one was supposed to shoot planes when they went rabbet. ;-)
Ralph,
TWO of the old Delta Tenoning Jigs! That is a double treasure. You are rich. Sell one on EBay and keep the other. Last I looked, they were going for over $400 in medium condition. A lot of people are looking for them.
Congratulations.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I understand the merit of a router plane, and can see how it would be useful for SMALL(er) tenons on SQUARE stock, but for tenons 3" and longer, it would not be very helpful. Have a look at the tenons on my workbench legs. Using a router plane to trim the ends of the tenons would be more of a hinderance than help.
View Image
Somehow, I don't think that they make a tenoning jig which would work with this 70+ pound (4-1/2 stones) chunk of wood.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
OK, I stand corrected.
I tried to help without really understanding your problem.
Of course, that never stops anybody here on Knots.
I can't wait to hear how you solve your problem.
Sounds like an opportunity for personal growth.I am still making bowls. You are progressing.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hello Chris,
After seeing the photo of the piece of wood and the tenons you may have to trim, I would say that the block rabbet (ie. LN low angle block rabbet) would be a great choice. I have one of these and it works like a champ in these type of situations.
Please post more photos of that bench when you can, it looks cool.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Chris,
Now that I see the size of the tenons you talk of I would use a #10 to adjust them if needed and a widish chisel to clean up and slightly undercut the shoulders.Philip Marcou
Philip,
Do you think Chris needs a piston fit for those tenons, or would "17th century tenons" work?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Well Mel, those massive tenons are not glued in so that the bench can be disassembled. A new technique called "gravity" keeps the joint together. I took my time shaving those down and was rewarded with one of the best piston-fit joints I've made yet. Oh, how sweet that feels!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Congratulations.
That sounds great. Piston fit and they can be disassembled. You did great. I don't have any experience with tenons that large. So which plane did you use to fine tune the tenons?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
These tenons were done long before I started this post. Infact, they were the reason I started this post. Careful paring work with my 1" chisel did the fitting, with frequent test fits. I don't know if you cought it in an earlier post, but I bought a float to use and I'll see where that takes me. $5 float vs $$$ plane. Sounds like a good place to start.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I dunno why Mel isn't telling you (like he told me above) that you ought to have just cut it to the right size the first time. Philip, Mel, and Richard swear by this method. ;-)
PS - I think a wide chisel is still one of the best ways to shave a slightly fat tenon, especially if the high spots relative to the mortise are not exactly in a single plane (i.e., the mortise ain't perfect). If you are carver at all or have any feel with a chisel, it allows plenty of precision and control.
Nah, I don't believe in cutting perfect joints the first time. That's too easy. What's life without a challenge? I guess the whole point of this thread was to get you guys to talk me into getting a new tool. So much for that. You guys suck. Just kidding - I always know I'll get good help from most of you.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Samoldson, don't misrepresent me--- if he is to cut tenons like he showed by hand it is likely that some tweaking would be called for especially if it is a hard wood (can't just squeeze it in).
A nice wide chisel would be fine, but when the tenons are across a wide expanse then Ye Old No. Ten is mighty useful- much more conveneient to use than say a #73 or 073.
Be kind to Mel,he is showing signs of confusion these days, what with polished screws etc. );)Philip MarcouEdited 8/12/2008 5:04 am by philip
Edited 8/13/2008 5:54 am by philip
Chris,
You had the job done before you asked the question.
I like your style. With that, you could grade the answers. :-)
So the big chisel did it, and you are going to test out a float. I can't wait to hear how the float makes out. I have never used one. Chisel - plane -- Whatever works. If you got a piston fit with a chisel, you have excellent skills. Nothing great was ever done without enthusiasm. I can sense your enthusiasm on this on (on all of them, actually).We need to have a Canadian - US symposium on the use of interesting tools in interesting situation. What I mean by that is: either I gotta go visit you, or you gotta get down here in the next year or two. We need to come up with an interesting project. How about a three tiered power-carved bowl with the bowls being joined by piston fitting mortice and tenon. Heck, with a motor and some water, and some well placed holes, we could turn the tiered set of three bowls into a fountain. Maybe we can suggest the bowl replace "Peace Bridge" as the symbol of our two countries coming together. Have fun. Keep me posted on the float.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
A fountain! That's the perfect project for all those wafer thin bowls I've turned through. Maybe I should come down sometime and check out your store or vise-versa.
PS: The float sinks.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Ah beelieve he just needs them to fit after 3 (three) huffs and a grunt followed by sash clamps for the last 1/4 inch.Philip Marcou
Edited 8/12/2008 2:11 am by philip
Whoa, Mel, you bully. All that rough talk about mortises and tenons ......I like it....gives me goose pimples. I was wondering if your a pins or a tails guy? ;-)
Regards,
-Chuck
PS
Don't let Mrs. Mel read that post. You won't be getting much sleep. :)
Chuck,"I was wondering if your a pins or a tails guy? ;-)"Ever since I hooked up my Laser-based CNC machine to my CAD-CAM system, it really doesn't make any difference whether it cuts the pins or tails first. I have been using an electron microscope to monitor cutting accuracy down to the sub-atomic level. As you know, the next big move in woodwork will be NANO-TECHNOLOGY. We will be able to rearrange molecules of wood at will. OF couse, this will cause a lot of fallout. The entire field of hand planes and chisels will be the first to go. When you inspect current hand-cut dovetails with an electron microscope, you can see how primitive they are. I will be announcing a new magazine in about a year "Ultra Fine Woodworking". I am now working on "clean room technology" to replace current dust collection methodologies. I am working with the folks in Silicon Valley to enable us to quickly and efficiently transfer technology from the field of electronics to woodwork. There are downsides. Some woodworkers enjoy being in their shops. In the future, it will be impractical for humans to enter a workshop because of the dust and impurities they bring into the shop. But on the bright side, you will be able to make furniture while on vacation, just send the appropriate messages back to your computer controlled shop and your furniture wilel be ready in a matter of minutes.I am working on a cell-phone camera system which will take a 3-D image of any reasonably sized entity, and automatically transfer the image to your computer controlled shop for immediate execution. The world of woodwork is about to change. So Chuck, as a friend, I urge you to get in on the ground floor. Quick. Sell your home and send me the proceeds to invest in this new company, which I call "Bestool" YOu won't regret it.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
While I applaud your adoption of technology, Mel, I still maintain there are real benefits to cutting dovetails with a self-chipped flint blade. Not only is the kerf so wide that removing waste is greatly simplified, the coarse nature of the resulting sawdust is great for absorbing wooly-rhino blood from the cave floor.
"kerf so wide that removing waste is greatly simplified"
Ralph,
I think you're on the right track, but a better approach would be to have the saw blade taper in thickness so that it cuts both sides of the joint and removes the waste all at the same time.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
What a great idea, Chris. Thanks for, uh, chipping in, so to speak. ;-)
Mel,
Stop it. You're scaring me.
Chuck,
OK. You have seen Mr. Hyde. Do you want to see Dy. Jekyl now? :-)
Mel
PS please never make the mistake of taking me too seriously. Please take my woodwork seriously, but not my banter. There are too many really good woodworkers around here who you should pay attention to. My real job is to make it hard to discern who is giving good advice. After all, just think of how hard it is for a newbie.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Just how do you cut a tenon at 45 degrees w/ the 172?
I have one and don't see how this could be done w/o rigging it yourself to do so.
Years ago when I first started woodworking I bought the Asian import, which I must admit is not of the same heft. This one does allow for non-square tenons. So, I'm left w/ the question (which I now propose to any who would like to answer):Which is the more practical tenoning jig?Thanks
Prado,
I have never tried to do 45 deg tenons on my old Delta tenoning jig. I was referring to a message that I read from someone else. It was a great message. There is some chance he was exaggerating. I have never seen anyone do that around here. Have you?After getting your message, I went down to take a closer look at the jig. Ther are some holes in the face. It is possible that you could screw in a fence to hold a board at 45. I don't know. I am a simple guy. I stick to 90 (or thereabouts). If you figure out a way, please post a photo.
Have fun with that big hunka metal.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks for your response.
Your preceding post was great.
Was it humor?
Was it impatience?
Was it both?As I mentioned I have the 172 (was a GREAT buy at an estate sale--$20) and haven't picked up the Asian import version since. Of course I haven't had a need to make angled tenons for about two years now.The 172 is heavier indeed and feels more secure on the table saw.Wasn't this a post about rabbet planes?
Prado,
I am sorry I didn't write plainly.
Are you sure you have a Delta 172? It hasn't been made in a long time, and I haven't seen any go for less than a few hundred dollars for a long time. Here is a photo of the 172 in the following website:http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-34-172.htmlLately, Delta has had a sequence of light cheap tenoning jigs that have sold from $90 to $120 or so. On the following webpage you can see the 182/183/184. http://www.normstools.com/images/normstools/34-182.htmThese are not in the same class as the 172.I was speaking of the original 172 - a big heavy beast of a device.I hope I didn't offend you with my response. If I can give you any more specific feedback, please let me know.
Thank you.
Mel
PS threads often start on one topic and morph to another, much like marriages. Some threads last longer than modern marriages. :-)
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Keep the ambiguity coming--it makes for great reading.Purchased my 172 as part of a lot of an estate sale which included a Makita 2030 (which is just a damned pleasure to use), a porter cable 3 1/4 HP, a number of clamps, a Delta drill press (old cast iron), etc., etc. for $500.If the 172 doesn't go for less than a few hundred dollars then it's safe to say that I find even greater pleasure in its use--a hell of a tool at a hell of a price.I'll have to keep on using my Delta tenoning jig (the import one) for angled tenons until I can figure out a system for it on the 172--maybe a new post here..?
Prado,
Congratulations on a GREAT Buy. You are one lucky guy. Have fun with that tool, and please let me know how to use it for angled tenons, if you find out.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I suggest your wide chisel is better than a plane. Or, have you given a rasp or a float a try if you're not happy with the chisel.
What is giving you issue that you believe a plane will eliminate?
Dean,
My chisel works satisfactorily for most tenons. However, if the tenons are wider than the chisel is long, there is a problem. I suppose you could work from the other side, but I don't see that as being ideal. (By the way, I don't cut super-wide tenons without breaking them up.) I haven't tried a float or rasp. A plane is wider than any of the options mentioned so far, so a flat tenon is easier to achieve. Somehow, I find the slicing action of a blade more... I don't know what the word is... positive?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris - I cut all of my mortises and tenons by hand. It's not because I'm a masochist, but a machine-cut M&T is not appropriate to most of the work that I do.
I own several "tenon adjusting" tools: The L-N left and right skew block planes, the L-N rabbeting block plane, the L-V router plane, various Norris and L-N shoulder planes, chisels, and planemaker's floats.
When talking about thining the tenon, I find a float to be the fastest and most helpful tool. The router solution is very, very accurate, but takes too long to set-up (you need an piece of wood of identical thickness to your workpiece, and very flat bench to pur both on to guide the router plane), and the blades available are small enough that it takes a lot of passes on a large tenon.
The shoulder planes, rabbet block planes and skew block planes are great tools for other purposes, but I find them lacking for thinning out tenons. The reason is that it's easy to either round the tenon, or take off more on one edge of the tenon than the other and wind up with a trapezoid shape when viewed end-on rather than the desired rectangle.
It's possible to do this with a joinery or plane-maker's float as well, but I find the length of the tool to be very helpful in keeping it parallel to the tenon's surface, and the design of many cutting edges on the float means that it will take little bites regardless of the grain direction (sometimes vagaries in grain direction makes using a paring chisel difficult for this task - it wants to either dive into the grain or skip over the harder parts).
FWIW.
Thanks for your post. I bought a float yesterday and I'll use start using it and see how I do and if I still feel the need for a different tool.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
In my opinion, the narrower withds of shoulder planes is not a disadvantage. It's easier to cut cleanly and not roll over the tenon when taking smaller bites. The weight of my Stanely #93 also helps to concentrate the cut. I don't see that every light cut needs to be right up against the shoulder of the joint, and it helps to have things very close to actual thickness prior to fiting with the plane. I feel like I'm in the same boat as you in figuring this all out, but am NOT disastisfied with my Stanely for trimming large tenons (its the plane operator that still has some improving to do, but after hundreds of joints with the plane, I'm getting there). I have wondered latley if I could have got a quality rabbet block rather than separate shoulder and block planes . . . I don't think it would necessarily be cost effective, but look forward to learning from your experiences. Few of us have only one block plane anyway, so it's not exactly a spot that needs filling, except by a higher quality tool. Later.
Brian
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