All,
I have been buying rough lumber for about a year now up in New Hampshire at hardwood supplier, their prices are quite good and they have a good selection of stock.
I also do a little dumpster diving over at a molding maufacturer. It may be my imagination, but it seems to me the wood I get from the molding company is much better quality. The wood seems more solid, straighter and a bit more dense.
I’m wondering if the NH place is cheaper because they are buying the top or bottom of the stack? I have noticed some sticker stain that is impossible to remove.
Is all this my imagination?
Replies
Where do you get your stock...Northland or Highland or ????
John,
I go to Highland.....where is Northland?
BG
Northland is a few miles south of Highland, off Rt. 125.
They had/have a web site. Phone # is 603.642.8275.
I'm guessing that you're dumpster diving at A McQ.
Not sure why the recovered stock is better than Highland's but....
Highland's stuff gets picked over pretty good.
The good stuff goes quick, culls can stay on the racks for quite awhile.
jk
John,
Yes, I do remember seeing the Northland sign now that you mention it...your saying they are worth a stop by?
Highland has not disappointed me per se, the differences between Q's and Highlands wood is probably more due to the issues Jon, Stanley and you have alluded to, ie. Q's gets stock suited to the molding purpose, I don't know what I'm doing and Highland stuff has been picked over at times.
A couple of weeks ago Frenchy mentioned you could buy a 4x4x8' quantity of wood at a mill up there (Minn.) for about $30...there was a name for this cut off wood pile that I can't remember. Also, recently on here, there was some discussion about wood on the bottom of the pile with sticker stain. It got me wondering is that is what Highland's might be doing with some of its stock (buying the bottom) to keep prices attractive and profitable.
the term for that wood was slab wood.. It's the first cut off the tree that has either a high or total wane in it.. Usually though you get some great wood out of it..
If you didn't insist on eight foot long boards there was generally about 200 bd.ft. of usable wood in a bundle (the rest was usually firewood) Considering that you could get Cherry, black walnut, or just about anything for that there was tremendous value in it..
Frenchy.
Ahhh...slab wood...thanks, lets see how long it stays in short term memory this time....lol. I was fascinated the first time you mentioned what it was and the price....especially the price.
BG, the quality of wood, as Mother Nature makes it, yields what the mathematicians would call an indiscrete spectrum. In other words, She doesn't make wood in discrete or clearly divided segments (groupings, such as FAS, Sel & Btr, #1 Com, etc., but rather as a continuous spectrum ) These groupings are subjective categories established by the industry to fascilitate marketing their commodity. The categories are based on grading rules adhering to published minimum standards...and there is variation in the stock that qualifies for each grade category. This may appear too intuitively obvious to warrant mention, but it has an important implication.
In my experience, the mills adhere to these standards (most of the time) in a reasonable way. In fact, in many cases they even attempt to further refine their shipments based on experience and an understanding of what their valued customers need in their unique application. For example, they might try to provide a molding manufacturer with absolutely knot free, straight grained material in long lengths and of consistent density (because it best suits the application), but they might compensate by being less generous with stock of wider widths...On the other hand, they might attempt to provide a furniture manufacturer (who will use the stock in shorter lengths) with wider, more figured stock (to enhance appearance and to minimize the need for laborous edge gluing) even though the stock contains the occasional defects that are allowed by the specified grade. In other words, the mills usually do their best to make everybody happy within the rules of the game.
As for your experience with your two sources, you may be experiencing the effects of this industry slight-of-hand...Or (and probably more likely) the mill shop is buying FAS, because the labor cost of sorting and throwing out rejects (...and/or sharpening chipped blades) exceeds the cost differential between FAS and Sel & Better...In other words, you are seeing a difference based on genuine differences in grade. Your other more "general" supplier is probably offering you stock that is "select" in that it meets Select & Better grading rules that are less demanding than FAS...which is usually the best grade from a price-value perspective for most furniture and other hardwood applications.
You might also be observing differences in the kiln schedules used by the up-stream supplying mills, but if the woods you are comparing are both KD hardwoods, this is a less likely explanation for the difference. However, If they are softwoods, it might be the most likely explanation...since kiln schedules for softwoods differ, depending upon whether the intended application is for "construction" or "cabinetmaking."
Anyway, what is most important here is that it is always best to actually examine the stock you are buying before you purchase it and go with the source that gives you the best price-value for your specific application...In this case, it's probably the dumpster down at the local mill shop, since there's no way you could beat the price.
Edited 7/29/2003 9:44:47 PM ET by Jon Arno
Jon,
Yes, the dumpster has the best price, unfortunately, with the economy the dumpster's stock has been quite low....lol. What I usually find in there is the wood with knots or other defects...but a nice straight dense grain and usually no warp, bow, twist...however, after clean up, short.
Wood quality is a factor of many variables.
Lumber grade is one. Contrary to what Jon stated, I find grading rules and application of grading rules highly variable. The primary reason for this is the fact that grading agency standards (eg National Hardwood Lumber Assn) are now for the most part the exception rather than the rule. Proprietary grades are more prevelant and are established by the producers. They do this to meet the needs of specific clients but also so as they can increase their production volumes of higher grades. As such they will modify rules so that they can include more #2 lumber into grade #1 and on up the line. I also know that mill owners are more than willing to sell/price lumber higher for those who do not know what they are getting!
The other common practice that exists in lumber buying and selection is high-grading. If you want to buy 200 board feet of 4/4 material that is #1 and better, do you select the first 200 bdft off the top of the pile or do you want to go through and select the best boards. If you do that in the beginning of a lot, you will be high-grading and some poor schmuck who gets the leavings will not have the same "quality" of wood as you. The problem is that that is exactly what everybody wants to do, starting will mill owners and every client and buyer.
Quality also includes aspects of the entire drying process. Sticker stain is a defect but if you accept it without a deduction, then caveat emptor. The same applies to end splits, surface checking, honeycombing and collapse. If you don't know that such things are defects then you will likely accept material that has those problems.
How the wood is sawed also makes a big difference. For example, if a log has taper and the mill does not have the capacity (or interest) in taper sawing, you will get more pieces that have cross grain and this material will be more likely to deflect (warp). Some mills will meticiously (sp?) resaw material to remove wane while others will allow some preestablished percent inclusion. If you are not paying for the wane, what difference will it really make in final product other than an additional rip; the problem is that most small purchasers will not accept any wane in the lumber they purchase.
The ideal situation would be to order lumber in volume and specify exactly what you want or do not want. This takes some foresight and preparation but you have to decide and articulate all those apects of the quality that you seek.
Stanley,
Clearly, I need to know more about wood. In many cases I'll buy S2 or 3S because I can see more clearly what I'm getting and the waste from rough is more costly than the price differential of the S3S.
Recently I bought a 5' piece of 10/4 cherry about 11" wide. About 2" of the width was heart wood and they did not charge for that portion. My objective with the wood was to cut four legs and slice the remaining in half to make a top for a shaker style end table. The legs came out fine. The remaining portion was about 9/4 x10"x24" which I sliced in half on the table saw and finished with a hand saw. I joined the two boards...and there is a slight warp.
My question is should I have picked a different piece of wood to begin with?...using wood with some heartwood is a poor choice for the purposes I intended? thanks
I am a bit confused by your usage of the terms heart and sap. Heartwood in cherry is the darker (reddish) section of the stem that is the center of the log. Sapwood is the outer perimeter of whitish colored wood. For all intents and purposes, the wood of the two is identical except for the fact that the extractive content of the heartwood is significantly greater than that of the sapwood. The extractives impart color and, in the case of cherry, decay resistance (if this is a necessary or desirable attribute).
Generally there is nothing wrong with wood -- my fundamental assertion is that God does not make bad trees. The primary problems with wood come from human beings inability to process it appropriately/correctly.
It sounds like you resawed part of your wood to obtain the material for the top. It sounds like that after you resawed the material some warp developed. If this is the case, there are three possible reasons for this:
Generally the way to deal with MC and drying stress issues is to allow more wood in your stock to handle these issues through additional surfacing allowances and to additionally allow more time for equilibration of the wood's MC. HOwever that does not imply that you should accept material that is grossly casehardened or where there are huge differences between surface and core MC. Such material in my mind contains defect.
Stanley,
Thanks, I did have the heartwood and sapwood mixed up and your correct in your interpretation...I cut the wood in half for the top. The warp was slight...and I breadboarded the edges to help the situation. As it sits right now the hold down screws will easily eliminate the warp.
Is there a preferred cut of wood for resawing? That is, like quartersawn is a bit better for legs, is there a specific 'cut' one should ask for when your planning on cutting in half and glue up? thanks
BG, as usual, Stanley brings to the discussion some helpful insights...but just be leary of his predisposition that all business owners are essentially evil. Most mill owners do their best to get their product distributed to their customers so that this resource is optimized.
If you stop to think about it, there is a correlation between this practice and maximizing profits...They do sort...and they do grade within grades to position themselves as competitively as they can with respect to their target market niches by offering proprietary grades...but I would hardly consider this "decepitive" grading. That trick only works once...and the wholesale market they sell into is not a "cream once" consumer market. Wholesalers are few in number and getting fewer every day as the big boxes consolidate their control at the retail level...So, a wholesaler customer that is kept happy is a very valuable thing to a mill owner.
Where Stanley and I seem to agree is that the small end-user buyer should try to examine the stock before purchase and, where possible, sort (select through) the pile for individual boards suited to their purpose. If you do this, the price-value decision is always yours. Should you discover the pile has already been thoroughly picked over, you can decline, or you can attempt to negotiate the price.
If you must buy sight unseen, the more detailed written specs you can provide, the more likely you are to get what you want. Not primarily because you minimize the seller's opportunity to screw you by putting it in writing, but because it helps him better understand your unique needs. If you're demanding quality perameters above the grade, he'll let you know...and if your specs are easily achieved within (or even below) the stated grade, you'll still get what you want at the price you've already decided you were willing to pay.
Jon:
As you are ever the apologist for the righteousness of business ethics, you can say whatever you please but it is absolutely wrong (and insulting) to imply from my writings that I feel that mill owners are "evil". (". . . just be leary of his predisposition that all business owners are essentially evil".) Quite the contrary because I know very well the realities of the very difficult business they are in and the incredible amount of dedication, hard work and effort that goes into running a sawmill and lumber business. I have tremendous respect and admiration for most of these individuals if for no other reason that my products depends entirely on their abilities and the efforts that they make.
However if you assume that all mill owners, or even most mill operators, adhere strictly to NHLA grading rules then you are grossly mistaken. These grading rules are not law. These are voluntary standards promulgated by an independent and private organization. They are a starting point for determining grades of lumber. Mill operators more likely than not modify those grading rules to both accomodate the needs of their clients and adjust their yield and recovery volumes from the logs available to them such that they have some reasonable product mix.
It is my assertion that most mills do not strictly adhere to NHLA grading standards. It is my further assertion that many lumber buyers, especially small volume purchasers for craft projects or as small business owners, assume that these mills are adhering to NHLA grading rules and never query the mill owners or subsequent wholesalers as to the specifics of the grading rules that do apply to the material they are purchasing. As a case in point, how many times have you specifically asked which grading rules apply to the material you are purchasing? Have you ever asked for a copy of those grading rules for you to review?
The reality is that most individuals know little or nothing about lumber grades and lumber grading. This applies to both the structural grading basis for softwoods and the appearance grading of hardwoods. When it comes to the concept of number of clear cuttings of specific sizes from stock of a certain surface area dependent on initial widths and lengths, most individuals are ignorant. Yet this is the entire basis of hardwood grades and grading rules.
I never used the term "deceptive". Such terminology is libelous; and as such not something I would readlily do. It is insulting to me that you might infer that that was my implication. Were you to reread my previous statement, it should be at least somewhat apparent that the concept of caveat emptor will apply if a buyer enters into a transaction with more money than brains. And it is further reasonable to recognize that lumber sellers are more than willing to take advantage of that situation rather than be the perpetual Boy Scout. It is their business to sell wood and not to be voluntary educators of the ignorant and angels of fairness. And it still does not change the pervasive realities of high-grading.
You can take your cheap shots at me over at the Cafe regarding politics all you want and do so freely but do not ever again attempt to follow those same practices within the context of wood related threads at this website. Your expertise and training is that of an MBA (or whatever) and wood technology (and I use that term loosely) is for you a hobby or a source of secondary income based on personal interests. Wood technology (in its more fuller concept) is my profession and I was specifically educated in its disciplines. Further, the years that I spent at the Forest Products Department at Oregon State University has provided me with insights and knowledge that only a very few are privy to. I also have started in the trades in 1972 and for a significant part of my adult life, have depended on that work and skills for my living. IN short, get off your damn high horse!
>>"Contrary to what Jon stated, I find grading rules and application of grading rules highly variable. The primary reason for this is the fact that grading agency standards (eg National Hardwood Lumber Assn) are now for the most part the exception rather than the rule. Proprietary grades are more prevelant and are established by the producers. They do this to meet the needs of specific clients"<<
well Stanley, The above quote in your post # 6 is what stimulated my response in post #10. You opened with "contrary to what Jon stated"...and then proceeded to restate essentially the same points I made in my first post, i.e., that the mills manipulate the grading to accommodate customer needs. (a practice based on positive, helpful motives.)
---
You then suggested a less than ethical motive in this practice as follows:
>>"...so as they can increase their production volumes of higher grades. As such they will modify rules so that they can include more #2 lumber into grade #1 and on up the line. I also know that mill owners are more than willing to sell/price lumber higher for those who do not know what they are getting!"<<
As for your making malicious comments about the integrity of mill owners, I wonder if any of your clients would like to pick up this (above) quote for use as copy in any of their ads?
---
And finally, as for my "high horse", I ride but a pony compared to your massive mount, my friend. As for relative expertise, I literally grew up in this industry (in a family owned lumber business) and was buying lumber from mills all over the country by the time I was in my mid teens. To be kind, Stanley, I'm qualified to address the practical implications of buying lumber at least as well as you. I just happen to also know something about how businesses are run (both academically and practically.)
Edited 7/30/2003 3:56:20 PM ET by Jon Arno
Edited 7/30/2003 4:09:33 PM ET by Jon Arno
". . . just be leary of his predisposition that all business owners are essentially evil".
So how AND when are you going to address the above comment? You made; now explain/justify it!
Golly, this is getting interesting, but let's keep it amicable guys. Actually, I'm learning a lot.
But isn't it human nature that the guy who's placing a $20,000 order is going to get preferential treatment over the $200 order? Seems to me that only someone who specializes in selling to the small buyer will treat him the way he wants to be treated.
What you are both saying is making sense to me, and probably you are both right to some degree. AFter all, we all have different experiences.
Differences of opinions on technical issues are perfectly acceptable, and are part of the tete a' tete of this forum. I will not however tolerate false and spurious commentary that maliciously misrepresents who I am and imputes my professional integrity and expertise. There are protocols of acceptable behaviors applicable to this website that have been, in my opinion, violated.
As far as I am concerned Mr. Arno must either support his statement in fact or publicly retract it in writing.
Stanley, I'd have to refer to Cafe threads to shed more light on that comment...which wouldn't be fair on my part. I agree, the Cafe threads are "bar talk" and the Cafe is just a place to cruise while waiting for more serious wood threads. But just out of curiosity, you're not now posturing yourself as a Champion of Corporate America, are you? (keep in mind, many of the posters here are also fellow bar flies.)
Your quote that I've already cited in this thread regarding mill owner "dirty tricks" would certainly suggest otherwise. Personally, I took exception to it because it doesn't reflect my experience in dealing with mills, dating back almost a half century. I'm in no way prepared to offer them all up for canonization (they're certainly not all saints), but in that span of time, I've been had by only a couple of mills and, in each case, they immediately and permanently lost my business (one of these disputes revolved around species identification, the silly goose.) But neither of them are still in business. I've been abused by suppliers of other building materials and tools (especially tools and imported hardware) far more often than by lumber mills. For example I've never had to resort to the regrading clause or engage in litigation with a mill. I've refused acceptance of shipments on numerous occasions and the goods we exchanged without debate.
Your point about caveat emptor is valid (especially at the retail level in this industry), but in what field of commerce isn't it? I think mill owners are a pretty decent bunch. And if you treat them right, they are generous with reciprocating favors.
---
>>"As you are ever the apologist for the righteousness of business ethics"<<
...Being as we're trading insults, Stanley...How do you arrive at this conclusion? Even in Cafe threads, I've steadfastly condemned corporate crime. In fact, only Liberals and terrorists rank higher on my hit list. And by the way, you have my permission to surf Cafe threads for a quote on my part that would support the above.
Do I have the same offer?
Edited 7/30/2003 10:18:09 PM ET by Jon Arno
Edited 7/30/2003 10:48:56 PM ET by Jon Arno
(". . . just be leary of his predisposition that all business owners are essentially evil".)
Prove it in fact or retract it!
>>"As you are ever the apologist for the righteousness of business ethics"<<
Prove it in fact or retract it!
---
Stanley, I'd be happy to carry this to E-mail, if you want to continue, But I think we are beginning to abuse this thread.
...And I'm signing off for the night (I'm three time zones ahead of you.
Edited 7/30/2003 11:01:42 PM ET by Jon Arno
Edited 7/30/2003 11:11:43 PM ET by Jon Arno
Edited 7/30/2003 11:23:20 PM ET by Jon Arno
Geeze,
I go on vaction for week and come bck to fisticuffs.
I really don't know that much about wood technology or the economics of sawmills. However, I am scandalized to see the piles of logs at the local sawmill. They just cut pine there. You should see the trees. Some aren't 8 inches at the base. I swore some of it must have been pulpwood. No wonder you can't hardly buy a straight 2x4- they all have the pith running down the center. Me oh my!
Frank
I know what you mean, Frank. Every time I see that Home Depot ad about how they only sell "center cut premium lumber" it makes me want to double up laughing. They must have an ex butcher running the ad department. I suspect the image they're trying to get across is that their lumber has less wane...But the last thing you want is a board with the pith in it and unfortunately these days that's the first thing you get.
In fairness to the industry, though, as we move to plantation management of our forests and are forced to tighten up on logging cycles, it isn't going to get better anytime soon. Where it really hits home as a debasing in the quality of building materials is when you see a whole lift of decking or studs with the pith in the center of every board. It kinda makes me glad I've retired.
It doesn't surprise me that wood is usually in such poor condition. All you have to do is look how it's treated by everyone from the mill, wholesaler to retailer. You see the pictures in magazines and think, "My God, no wonder my wood is always bent, twisted, gouged and otherwise damaged." These people treat their product like it was garbage.
JON, since you're an expert, perhaps you could tell me how they can stack planks thirty feet high and not expect the material at the bottom of the pile to be seriously damaged. I look at the pictures and I can see the permanent bend tons of weight have forced into boards. My garbage gets better treatment than most wood products. They do the same damn thing with plywood.
I would also point out that lumber grading couldn't be more cleverly designed to be misleading. First and Seconds? Gimme a break. Would you spend $2000 for a table saw labeled as a first OR second? "Seconds" in any other industry means DEFECTIVE. To me, FAS means that I'm getting second rate junk mixed with, maybe a little good stuff. Select means they've cullled out all the bad stuff and sent it to me. God forbid, I've never seen a utility grade. It would be nice if any industry could be honest about their own standards. I was once associated with an industry standards organization and these folks were like politicians, trying to say one thing while actually saying another.
I don't know, Jon, maybe we expect too much from producers. I'd really love to see what kind of stock large manufacturers get versus what I get. I can't imagine them doing production work with the kind of stuff I see most often.
Fortunately, I have found a good supplier who gives me what I ask for. Of course I really have to pay for that, but that is as it should be.
There is alot of the luck of the draw. I recently built some forms for concrete. I really could have used any old lousy board. Every 2x4 I got was nice and straight."Go figger."
Frank
I wan't referring to building materials but hardwood.
Boatman, ease up. Your talking to yourself.
>>"Fortunately, I have found a good supplier who gives me what I ask for. Of course I really have to pay for that, but that is as it should be"<<
Boatman, I think your above comment sums up two key truths. First, relationships are very important in the lumber industry. Because the quality of the commodity is variable (like I said in my first post on this thread...which I now wish I'd stayed out of) virtually every transaction involves reasonable compromise on the part of both the buyer and the seller. Once both parties develop a sense of trust and an understanding of the other's needs (in my experience, anyway) the relationship works very well.
As for why it seems that the wood many manufacturers use is better than what you buy is that it in fact often is. Manufacturing industry buyers have a more exacting interpretation of what constitutes price-value. They must take into account processing costs within their operation to arrive at true value. They often opt for a higher grade, because it is more efficient for them to use...And yes, they pay the premium...it's not a conspiracy between two large corporations aimed at screwing the little guy somewhere out in a hardwood retail outlet. It's true that they probably do get FAS a little cheaper than you could buy it, but that's because of volume discounts. In principle, it's no different than how you are treated when you buy your beer by the case, rather than by the six pack.
As for tall stacks of lumber in a drying yard, you needn't be overly concerned about the height, but be sure to check the sticker alignment. Meandering sticker placement is a good indication of careless practices...Now that doesn't necessarily indicate that the saw mill owner is also crooked, but it does suggest that he might not be too bright.
...And Boatman, seconds aren't always bad. Just look at how well Philip's been treated since he married Elizabeth and she's just a second.
>As for why it seems that the wood many manufacturers use is better than what you buy is that it in fact often is<
> It's true that they probably do get FAS a little cheaper than you could buy it, but that's because of volume discounts.<
A friend of our family's is a part owner of a large cabinet shop operation in Statesville, NC. The man started with nothing and now is an extremely wealthy, 70-year old, multi-millionaire.
The scale of the amount of material that they store for a six-month or one-year inventory is just about unfathomable, He once showed us their storage warehouse and you walk in and realize that you are looking at several million dollars worth of sheet goods and hardwood lumber. More than the typical hobbiest or small-scale niche-production operator will use or even touch in a lifetime.
I don't think they're inherently evil because they're a large operation that makes a large amount of money supplying a large number of homes with cabinets. But I do think comparing how they buy their lumber to how I buy mine is apples to oranges.
Ed
Jon, I understand human nature, even so-called honest people lie a lot, but that doesn't mean I regard all businessmen as evil. Some are and some aren't and I don't paint all wth one brush.
Anyway, It was my thought that the big buyers simply buy up all the good stuff and leave the rest of us with the junk. I have trouble with grading because I can't find any consistancy with it. That's a function of my not buying large quantities, so I'm probably just a victim of circumstance llike everyone else. I don't talk about grades with my supplier, I talk about what I need and he tries to give it to me.
Moreover, he has become very cooperative with me because I don't ask for the best when I don't need it. I take narrow boards when I don't need wide ones. I ask for bent and figured boards where I can make use of them. If I'm cutting lots of small pieces, I relieve him of some of his junk. So, yes, there is a lot of give and take there and it is essential to have that personal relationship, even if it is just over the phone.
Boatman,
I just read your comments to Jon,,
I've got to admire someone who is wize enough to do that, Too often I see woodworkers go through a stack of wood rejecting any with the least bit of charcter or "flaws". They may need a five foot piece of wood and will take the flawless eight footer...just in case.. What that does is drive the cost of wood up.. Since the stores have trouble selling anything with any charcter in it they automatically reject a lot of good wood..
At the sawmill that I frequent Everyday they will saw off hundreds of board feet of perfectly acceptable wood simply to be able to give the rest of the board a higheer grade.. By the end of the week there are tens of thousands of 1 to 4 foot long pieces of ...firewood, some with wonderfull flame or crotch /reaction wood or some other bit of charcter..
To me the "art" of woodworking is to incorporate those bits of charcter into the piece and still have it fully functional..
I got 916 bd.ft. of white oak burl because I was willing to accept it with the "flaw" in it..
Too bad there isn't a grade for charcter wood. While there is a market for it,, It's usually found by someone sorting thru the 2b pile and selecting. rather than simply grading for it..
OK, rants over!
Are you kidding? Where? Whatsamadda wid does nitwits? Hell, at least half of us are paying extra for high figure.
I assume that you aren't paying much for wood these days with a place like that nearby.
Boatman.
If you come by my place you'll find all kinds of wonderful black walnut that they couldn't sell a few years ago.. The disgusting thing is I've got fiddleback walnut 40 plus feet in the air where you can't possibly appreciate it. It's there because that's what I got and that's where it needed to go..
Johnson bros. logging where my source is has almost a thousand bd.ft. of fiddleback maple that they are drying outside because they couldn't find anyone who would pay even $4.00 a bd.ft. for it. Simply they do not have a buyer willing to pay any kind of premium for special woods.. they send out a couple of million bd.ft. a year and much of the great stuff goes to the pallet mills because it doesn't meet grade and they have no one willing to pay for it..
In case you are thinking that they are fools, when they took over the sawmill from it's former owner they had whole sheds of wonderful burls and finely figured wood. In two years of actively marketing it they couldn't keep up with the amount they set aside.. when a overheated compressor burned down the buildings they vowed that wood that didn't find a buyer would find a buyer if they had to sell it to the pallet mills.
While that may hurt us as woodworkers it has helped their bottom line and from an economic standpoint they lose more then they gain trying to capture that specialty market..
Imagine trying to market that stuff sight unseen, would you pay a premium for wood you couldn't look at? Well there aren't too many woodworkers willing to drive the hundred miles or so to their sawmill and if they did the stuff went out with the pallet wood.
I hate to admit this but I've burned some nicely figured wood because as much of a woodaholic as I am there is even a limit to my storage space.. I begged on line for over a year for someone to come and rescue some of this but no-one showed up. As I type this my elbow keeps bumping into a stack in my living room and there is more stacked around the house..
I gave my sister enough pin knot cherry to build all of her kitchen cabinets and enough ash to do the flooring for her whole second floor.. Guys at work now run because I'm constantly finding them something that they just have to have..
Only because my wife is a saint am I able to get away with this.. A normal wife would have had a fit several years ago..
>>"Anyway, It was my thought that the big buyers simply buy up all the good stuff and leave the rest of us with the junk."<<
There's probably some truth to this, on two counts. First, large manufacturers sometimes employ "standing order" agreements to take a mill's total production of a certain grade. The second problem is that clear stock, as a percent of total production, is declining as we continue to harvest less mature trees...So there's proportionately less of it to go around. This also causes ever widening speads in the price of the various grades. Frenchy's point about the mills trimming defects in order to up grade a portion of a board is becoming a rational practice, given current price differentials between the grades.
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>>"Moreover, he (hardwood dealer) has become very cooperative with me because I don't ask for the best when I don't need it."<<
Long term, Boatman, that's your best strategy. It builds that relationship of trust which works both ways.
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