Replies

1. 
   riverr1 | Oct 10, 2002 07:38pm | #1

   Try DunDean.com

   Don

2. 
   RSRose | Oct 10, 2002 08:06pm | #2

   roly,

   They're available as both powders and liquid. Just curious - how are you going to use "japan drier" and, is there no Home Depot or Ace Hardware near you? I thought there was not a place in the US that one of these guys didn't reach. Both carry japan drier.

   Rich

1. 
   roly94 | Oct 10, 2002 09:02pm | #3

   Hi everyone thanks for the replies.

    Rich there is an Ace and a HOme depot here in Maryville,tn.However I didn't know they carried them.I kinda thought they were like aniline dye stains,something availabe primarily through mail order.

    I would like to use them with my Maloof like varnish mixture:equal parts varnish,tung oil and linseed oil.

   To Rich or anyone:Is liquid or powder preferred?I.e.,what is the most convenient.I am thinking powder.

   thanks again all,Roland

1. 
   RSRose | Oct 11, 2002 06:28am | #5

   Roly,

   If you want to experiment with japan drier, have fun. But there's no need to use it with the Maloof "formula.

   First of all, despite Sam's elevation to Diety status, his finish concoction is nothing special. It's an oil/varnish mix. Such mixes are extremely forgiving regarding the ratios of ingredients to use. Vary them quite a bit, and the end results won't matter much. I don't think that anyone would ever be able to tell the difference between his 3 part mix vs using varnish and either one of the oils.

   Second, you HAVE to use "boiled" linseed oil. The name is a misnomer, because it's heated, not boiled and driers are added which promote polymerization. Buy a commercial preparation. You won't be able to improve on polymerization by trying your own alchemy with raw linseed oil. You might eventually come up with something that's almost as good as house brand Ace Hardware Boiled Linseed Oil.

   Third. No need to add driers to varnish. There is not a varnish that you can purchase that isn't ready to polymerize on exposure to air and light. So your home-brew efforts won't help with the varnish component.

   Last. You need to use partially polymerized tung oil. Pure tung takes many weeks to polymerize. Sam says that the driers in the linseed and varnish accelerate the tung oil's polymerization. He's wrong about that. Driers don't catalyze tung oil polymerization. Partially polymerized tung is a heat treated product, and each brand is subjected to proprietary heat and pressure at specific temperatures for specific times.

   Get some partially polymerized tung from Garrett Wade or Woodcraft or any number of other suppliers, any varnish you want (Sam uses polyurethane) boiled linseed oil, mix 'em up and apply.

   Or use just varnish and boiled linseed oil.

   Or buy his product.

   Or avoid the hassle completely. When you go to Ace or Home Depot, buy a can of "Minwax Tung Oil Finsh." The stuff is a propietary mixture of an alkyd varnish and boiled linseed. It MAY have tung in it, I dunno. It will give you exactly the kind of finish Sam gets. It works. It's easy (all oil/varnish finishes are easy). There's no guess work.

   1st coat. Flood it on, let it sit for 20-30 minutes. Keep it wet with more mixture if necessary. Then wipe the surface completely "dry." Leave it be for 48 hours.

   2nd coat. Repeat.

   3rd coat. Buff first with 0000 steel wool or white nylon pad until entire surface is even and smooth. Then apply finish using a balled up cotton rag as a pad, padding it on with a french polish motion (just a little bit of finish on the pad at a time). The surface will start to transform from a low lustre, matte to a low lustre sheen. You will be applying a microscopically thin layer of finish with the padding action. Let sit for 48 hours.

   4th coat through the maximum number you want to apply (no further steel wool or nylon padding), more application of finish by padding - each application will increase the lustre. Stop when you are satisfied.

   Easier to do than describe.

   When you're done, throw the can away, The unused stuff will change enough in 1-2 weeks that it won't work right the next time you use it. Don't try to save it in an air-free container. The exposure it's already gotten is the problem.

   Rich

   PS: take a look at the "Walnut Rocker" thread in the Gallery section for another discussion of Sam's finish.

   Edited 10/10/2002 11:32:57 PM ET by Rich Rose

   Edited 10/10/2002 11:36:27 PM ET by Rich Rose

1. 
   roly94 | Oct 13, 2002 08:42pm | #6

   Thanks Rich for all the help.

    Perhaps the problem is that I have been using pure Tung oil and not the pre-polymerized kind.I am aware that Mr.Maloof states that the driers in boiled(misnomer,of course,but the old timers probably boiled it to set up polymerization) linseed oil were sufficient to expedite the curing process,however,for me it isn't sufficient.It still takes 2-3 days to cure sufficiently for additional coats.I am thinking a pinch of cobalt(or whatever dryer) could get the wait down to 1 day.

    Incidentally I think a handrubbed look for oak-using said concoction-is second to none.Lacquer and shellac,of course,don't(doesn't?) look bad,however,for oak I think it "refines"it too much.It loses its tactile look,as it were,and hence its quaintness and robustness.It would be nice if lacquer did give you that look.Save me a ton of time.Thanks again,Roland.

2. 
   silver77 | Oct 15, 2002 04:32am | #7

   Really interesting, Rich,

   I wondered about the Maloof finish reference in the rocking chair thread. Tied together some loose knowledge of mine...I'm a huge fan of tung oil esp. Miniwax Tung oil. Went out to the shop and checked the can...Miniwax "Tung Oil Protective Finish".What orange drink is to orange juice but it must have tung oil in it. Smells like what I have come to believe tung oil smells like. Says it contains mineral spirits which I assumed was a solvent for the polmerized (heat treated)tung oil.

   You're saying there is no optimum mix...it's all good in the varnish /oil mix?Even boiled oil and linseed oil? What's you're favorite?

   Have any idea where to get Sam Maloof's rocking chair video or book. That was a very beautiful design.

   thanks for the info,

   silver 

1. 
   RSRose | Oct 15, 2002 11:34am | #8

   Silver,

   I have Sam's book, "Sam Maloof Woodworker," Kodansha International, and his video tape. I believe that the book is out of print, but you can try Amazon.com for both. Amazon can locate out of print editions.

   I like the Minwax product, but I really don't think that it has much Tung in it. I can smell Linseed and mineral spirits in it, but it smells nothing like my bottles of pure and polymerized tung oil. I really think that the varnish in the Minwax is its best component.

   I don't like just oil finishes, but of the two much prefer tung to Linseed. I don't think that anyone can tell the difference in properly applied varnish/linseed oil vs varnish/partially polymerized tung oil.

   My favorite finish? Shellac, very closely followed by spray nitrocellulose lacquer. In the hands of a good finisher these two often can't be told apart. Nothing gives the clarity and fire to wood as does shellac. And that requires a gloss finish, but on a given day I'll find myself deciding that a matte finish is better.

   Lacquer, sprayed thin and rubbed with nylon abrasive or cloth can look like an oiled finish in a fraction of the time and outlast oil by decades as far as protection is concerned.

   Rich

2. 
   LeeEschen | Oct 16, 2002 10:58am | #9

   Rich Rose wrote: I don't like just oil finishes, but of the two much prefer tung to Linseed. I don't think that anyone can tell the difference in properly applied varnish/linseed oil vs varnish / partially polymerized tung oil.

   My favorite finish? Shellac, very closely followed by spray nitrocellulose lacquer. In the hands of a good finisher these two often can't be told apart. Nothing gives the clarity and fire to wood as does shellac.

   ----------------

   Different woods respond best to different finishes. Shellac is a wonderful finish on most light colored woods, but it leaves me cold on walnut. But walnut takes warmed 50/50 boiled linseed and turp just beautifully. The warming is very important, especially for the first coat, to promote penetration. I use an old electric frying pan turned very low. I don't object to adding some varnish to the mixture if additional protection is needed.

   I haven't used much tung oil, since I can usually get comparable results with the linseed, but I am intending to work with it more in the future and learn its strong points and its weak points.

   I have limited experience with lacquer, but the way it is used on most kitchen cabinets is pretty poor. Properly rubbed out, lacquer can be a fine finish, but I find my preference leaning more towards the shellac, understanding that the protection is not at all as good as lacquer.

   Since I have learned to thin it and apply more but thinner coats, and rub it out like you would lacquer, I have gained new respect for polyvarathane. I would only use it for a maximum protection requirement, but it can be made to look pretty darn good.

   --

   Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon

   On the Redwood Highway

3. 
   silver77 | Oct 16, 2002 07:25pm | #10

   Rich Rose and Lee,

   I popped into this thread curious about japan driers but now my curiosity and interest has really kicked in. I do a fair amount of finishing but have always shied away from from shellac(because of alcohol rings and bad press) andlacquer(because I see it as environmentally unfriendly). I like to experiment but I don't have time to waste these days so I'm always looking for the skinny. Are shellac and lacquer basics covered in the archives? I would love to start using these finishes. Is there an environmentally friendly lacquer?

   thanks,

   silver   

4. 
   RSRose | Oct 16, 2002 07:53pm | #11

   Silver,

   Water borne lacquers are more environmentally safe than nitrocellulose, especially if sprayed using HVLP or LVLP equipment. However, the amount of overspray that a small shop user doing occasional spraying with a small, high pressure gun, puts into the atmosphere is insignificant compared to a big operation using the best methods (HVLP, LVLP) to avoid environmental contamination.

   The best thing about waterborne is their low toxicity to the user. They require a whole new learning curve.

   There are more articles on applying shellac and lacquer extant than all other finishes combined. Look in the finishing section of FWW site.

   Both shellac and lacquer, applied by a hack can look, feel, smell and perform like junk. Once seen, such a finish could turn a novice off to the material for life (as in poorly-done kitchen cabinets).

   But in the hands of a craftsman, these materials result in the finest of fine finishes. (of course that's true of just about any material).

   Rich

   Edited 10/16/2002 1:09:17 PM ET by Rich Rose

3. 
   RW | Oct 10, 2002 11:49pm | #4

   Sherwin Williams also carries.