Replies

1. 
   nikkiwood | Jul 25, 2004 10:06pm | #1

   When you say "wide belt sander", do you mean the portable or stationary version?

1. 
   nohrn | Jul 28, 2004 04:23am | #15

   a stationary one

2. 
   johnhardy | Jul 25, 2004 11:06pm | #2

   I'll give you my opinion ... as an (ex) owner of a Performax 16/32 drum sander. This is one that has a 16" drum with an open end so that you can sand wider items by flipping them and making a second pass.

   First, most of the inexpensive drum sanders, the Performax 16/32 included, have two problems if you're wanting to flatten wide stock. They're underpowered, so if you're sanding a wide surface you need to greatly reduce the feed rate and at the same time take off only very small increments of stock. Otherwise the machine will bog down and, probably, blow a breaker. They also have another problem, in that the drum is very hard to adjust to perfectly parallel to the platten (the base that the stock goes over). If the open end of the drum is slightly dipped, you'll leave scores on your material. It it's slightly high, you'll leave high spots on the material. It's very difficult to adjust the drum so that "you're happy with the results".

   If you want to use a drum sander for this, I'd recommend one that is wide enough so that you use one pass, and one that has a motor powerful enough so that you're not blowing breakers or running stuff extremely slowly. I sold my Performax and bought a used Woodmaster 38" (I think it's 38") single drum sander. I'm much happier.

   But if you want really good results, get a wide belt sander that is wide enough for your work. The results are remarkably better. I know, because once in awhile I take my material to my local hardwood dealer and they'll run it through the sander for about $1 a minute. On some things this makes sense for me.

   John

3. 
   DougF | Jul 26, 2004 04:14pm | #3

   Bob,

   I was in the market for a wide sander and after reading many comments regarding the open-ended sanders I opted for a closed system and waited until I found a used 5hp Perfomax 25 2HD.  This is a 5hp with two sanding heads that is anchored at both ends eliminating the alignment problems mention in other posts.  The unit cost $700 and after some tweaking and cleaning, the system works good as new.  Many times a used but industrial grade machine is money better spent.

   Doug

1. 
   dbidle | Jul 27, 2004 02:37pm | #7

   Where do I look for a used drum or belt sander?

   Thanks - David

1. 
   DougF | Jul 27, 2004 04:25pm | #8

   Dave,

   In the Dallas paper there is a section for Tools & Shop Equipment and this is where most ads for professional/industrial tools are advertised.  I think most large papers would have a similar section.  If you don't live in an area with a lot of woodworking, subscribe to your nearest large metropolitan area paper or look online.  You need to stay local since shipping costs are prohibitive.

   Doug

2. 
   forestgirl | Jul 29, 2004 07:34pm | #24

   Also, watch for liquidation auctions where a furniture maker is going out of business.  Sunday paper, in the auction or liquidation section of the classifieds.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

4. 
   alpha | Jul 27, 2004 12:14am | #4

   As dissatisfied owner of a Performax 16-32 I would advise against buying anything but a professional grade machine ($$$$$).

   You would be better off to purchase and learn to use a hand plane. The quailty of a hand planed finish is unmatched. Those who do large production business benifit from wide belts but no craftsman would be without a hand plane.

5. 
   CharlieP | Jul 27, 2004 07:37am | #5

   After a couple of votes against the Performax 16-32, I understand why people consider it a bear to align and underpowered, but I love mine. 

   It took a painful  hour or two to align the way I wanted it, about a year ago, and it has held the alignment since.  I expect that someday I will have to spend a few hours doing it again, but it is not a constant problem. 

   It uses all the power you can draw from a household circuit.  I put an ammeter in, so I can run the feed faster and slower as required to keep from blowing the fuse.  A larger and higher power unit would be nice, but not in the space and budget available. 

   I use the 16-32 far more than I expected - on small pieces as well as the larger items that I felt that I needed it for.  In fact, it has become one of the more used tools in my shop. 

   ________________________
   Charlie Plesums  Austin, Texas
   http://www.plesums.com/wood

1. 
   dbidle | Jul 27, 2004 02:34pm | #6

   Hello - I have been toying with getting this affordable sander for quite awhile. I have hestitated because no one has given it good marks until I read your message. I was wondering, in one pass of a very hard wood like maple how deep is the cut and what is the fps? Also, when you say that it was set up once, are you refering to the parallel setting of the drum to the table, or the depth of cut?

   Thanks - David

1. 
   CharlieP | Jul 28, 2004 12:08am | #11

   When doing two pass (32 inch wide) sanding, Performax recommends that the drum be a few thousandths farther away from the table at the open end than at the motor end.  That is the alignment that took a long time to set up.  Even though they recommend leaving both ends the same height for regular sanding, I leave it with the slight tip - I can sand the first side of the board on the left side of the drum, and flip the board over to sand the second side on the right side of the drum, before having to change the depth. 

   I am constantly changing the height of the drum - for example, sanding 1x2s, I will crank up to 1.5+ inches and sand the edges, working down to 1.50, then drop down to 3/4 for the sides. 

   If I am sanding a wood that burns easily, like cherry, I sand a shallower depth and move the feed rate faster; at other times I run a slower feed rate with a deeper cut and fewer passes.  1/64 inch is a pretty deep cut (so I use my planer for the rough thicknessing).  I would guess that it never takes more than about three passes to get below the tear-out from the jointer or planer. 

   The feed rate depends on the width of the board as well as the depth and type of wood, since it impacts the total load on the sanding drum.  The simple ammeter is a huge help in getting the max speed without overload - a slight increase in speed can cause a very large increase in load at times.  I don't know the feed rate, but when I am doing a single smaller board, I can run at or close to max speed; a wide board may require slowing to 20% of max. 

   You will still get some sanding lines, even with 220 grit paper.   Most of the time I leave 150 or 180 in the sander, and can remove the sanding lines with a quick pass with an ROS.  Changing the belt only takes a minute after you have done it a few times.  I have never used the 36 grit belt that came with the machine, but have heard people recommend it for wood that may contain grit that would ruin planer knives. 

   I consider myself an advanced amateur, who may turn pro when I retire.  As a pro, this machine is too slow.  But as an advanced amateur, working in my garage, it is a great machine that I probably use more than any other machine except my table saw.    (Bet this sets off a bunch of discussion!)________________________Charlie Plesums  Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood

1. 
   dbidle | Jul 28, 2004 01:11pm | #16

   Charlie,

   Thanks for your response. I still haven't decided what I want to do. I am about to glue up a bunch of 6 inch ash boards to make the 10 inch skirts (is that what the side boards are called?) that will go with the ash risers and locust treads for the two sets of stairs in my new house. About how long do you think it would take me to remove about 1/64 inch from about 64 linear feet of 10 inch wide ash 96 linear feet of 8 inch wide ash using the drum sander? How often would I have to change the sand paper? Perhaps I would be better off driving the lot about 1.5 hours (one way) to a professional shop where there is a 36" industrial belt sander. I have already used this sander for the 32 locust stair treads. Wow - what a great tool!

   Thanks - David

1. 
   CharlieP | Jul 28, 2004 07:09pm | #17

   It would be very hard for me to estimate how long it would take to do the job you describe, since it is different type of work with a different type of wood than I normally use.  For starters I would estimate at no more than 50% of the maximum feed rate. 

   I routinely wash the sanding belts, and after about 15 months use, have not discarded any yet.  The biggest problem seems to be sap and glue, not wear, so sometimes I change belts after 10 minutes use, and other times a belt stays in for weeks. 

   If this is a one-time job, I would certainly have a commercial shop do it.  I bet there is one closer than 90 minutes away.  ________________________Charlie Plesums  Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood

6. 
   AlbionWood | Jul 27, 2004 07:38pm | #9

   If price is a consideration, then you will be getting a drum sander.  The price difference between a drum and wide-belt machine is about like the price difference between a bicycle and a car.  Of course if you really need a car, don't get a bike; but if price has anything to do with the decision then it's not even close.

   I have the Delta 18" open-end drum sander.  It works for me, although it does have one very annoying habit (feed belt won't track straight).  I don't exactly love it, but I get good results and it sure is a lot better than trying to flatten wide panels by hand.  Getting the table adjusted parallel to the drum wasn't really that hard.  It is slow/underpowered, but I don't have enough electric power available for anything bigger anyway.

   "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

1. 
   DougF | Jul 27, 2004 10:25pm | #10

   There are industrial version drum sanders that every bit as expansive as many wide belt sanders.  Without arguing the merits of either, one of the major differences is that the dual head drum sander permits differing grits to run in the same pass or a single grit on each drum head for aggressive thicknessing.  I will admit that the wide belt sander belts are easier to change than rolling a drum.   I'm happy with what I got but I could be just as happy with an equivalent belt sander.

   Doug

   Edited 7/27/2004 3:28 pm ET by Doug

1. 
   AlbionWood | Jul 28, 2004 03:36am | #14

   I think you misunderstood my point.  The original post indicated that price is a consideration, and that he is not a professional.  Given that information, why even discuss wide-belt sanders? 

   The Delta or Performax 16 or 18 inch open-end sanders cost a few hundred, wide-belt sanders start at several thousand.  If price is a consideration then a wide belt (or a large industrial dual-drum) is out of the question.  "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

1. 
   DougF | Jul 28, 2004 09:45pm | #18

   Thanks for the clarification and I did misunderstand the contecxt of your statement.  I visited your web site and really like some your designs/reproductions.  I am in the process of making a canopied trundle bed and I was wondering what is the thickness of your bed rails?

   Doug

1. 
   AlbionWood | Jul 29, 2004 04:33am | #20

   Thanks for the compliment!  I use 4/4 stock for the bed rails and plane until it's smooth - usually it's almost 7/8 inch thick when I stop.  Then I add a shelf rail of the same thickness, about 1-1/2 inches deep, glued to the inside for the slats to rest on.

   A new trick I'm going to start doing is to dovetail the ends of the slats and add dovetailed spacers on the shelf rail - so the slats prevent the sides from bowing out, on the beds that don't have the through-tenoned center slat.  I'll have to figure out how much slop to leave for swelling, though."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

2. 
   DougF | Jul 29, 2004 04:20pm | #21

   Another approach, albeit less pleasing than dovetails, is 1/2 dowel pins.  End-drilled slats fit over the pins not only stabilizing the rails but the slats as well. 

   Doug

3. 
   AlbionWood | Jul 29, 2004 07:18pm | #22

   I thought about that.  But is there enough room?  The shelf rails are a little under 7/8" wide.  A 1/2" pin would leave less than 3/16" on either side.  Seems like there would be a risk of relish failure on the ends of the slats.  A 1/4" pin would be at risk of getting broken (these beds travel a lot).  Maybe 3/8 would be a good compromise.  Sure would be a lot faster to do than the dovetails.

   The period solutions appear to have been either tenoning all the slats into the rails, as on the Viking beds, or simply to lay the slats edge-to-edge and fill the whole space (like floorboards in a chest) while using thicker rails to prevent bowing."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

4. 
   Ardito | Jul 29, 2004 07:27pm | #23

   The hardwood dealer by my house has a 36" belt sander.  If you purchased your lumber from them, you can bring back the pieces, or glue-up and they will run it through the belt sander for a couple of bucks. 

   I had to 32" wide maple glueups that I needed flattened.  Let the glue-up dry for a couple of days, then ran it over to them and for $10 it was perfect. 

   If your hardwood dealer doesn't offer this service, check with a cabinet shop in your area.  They ususally have the industrial wide belt sanders in their shop.

   Dark Magneto

5. 
   DougF | Jul 29, 2004 09:08pm | #25

   I was planning on a 1" shelf rail.  Since there the pin holds the slats from shifting and there is minimal sheer force, I think a .25" margin is sufficient meat for this purpose.  Of course if you really want to go period, use rope in place of slats.

   Doug

7. 
   Jeff | Jul 28, 2004 01:48am | #12

   Bob

   I bought John Hardy's 16-32.

   Yes it is under powered.

   But, I can easily pass thru small pieces for a good light sanding and small panals.

   I don't use it for flipping a panal for 2 passes, which makes set-up easier.

   Over-all, the unit is handy for the work I do, but would buy a larger and more powerful unit for more production if needed.

   I did make a few modifications, as he had an older unit.

   It depends on what you plan to do with it.

   Jeff

1. 
   Biscardi | Jul 28, 2004 02:14am | #13

   I used a friends performax. It was not properly set up. It made a mess.

   You can go to a big shop and for $1 a minute you  can use a big ,professional machine.

   Frank

   Edited 7/27/2004 7:15 pm ET by BISCARDI

8. 
   DJK | Jul 29, 2004 01:36am | #19

   There is a 26" woodmaster drum sander on http://www.woodweb.com for $800. I have owned one for seven years after having two performax "toy" sanders. A friend has a performax and will drive across town to use my woodmaster. Think that sums it up.

   DJK

1. 
   nohrn | Jul 30, 2004 06:47pm | #26

   Thanks for indfo ... Bob