Dear Knots Community,
After collecting feedback from community members regarding the recent redesign of Knots, it’s become clear we need to make some changes to improve the Knots experience.
As a little background, over the years we have gotten several requests to expand the number of subject area folders in Knots. In our attempt to satisfy these requests, we inadvertently made Knots slower and more cumbersome to navigate by dividing the larger list of topical areas into six separate forums (e.g. the tabs…Tools, Skills & Techniques, Materials, Projects, Workshop, & General). In retrospect, this was not the best solution.
A Solution
We want to come up with a compromise that allows us to continue offering a greater variety of topics but makes navigation more manageable. We are limited in that we can only have 15 topical folders in each forum. Our proposed solution is to create two forums within Knots that will allow us to have as many as 30 topical folders and make it easier to search and navigate. Below is a summary of our proposal with a list of all the folder topics.
Give us Feedback
Before we get to work, we want your feedback. This discussion will be active for seven days, during which time you can offer comments or suggestions to improve on our solution.
KNOTS Forum 1: General Woodworking
1. General Discussion
2. The Archives
3. Power Tools and Machinery
4. Hand Tools
5. General Tools
6. Blades/Bits/Accessories
7. Joinery
8. Finishing
9. Carving
10. Wood Turning
11. Wood and Materials
12. Project Plans/CAD Software
13. Jigs, Fixtures, Tips & Tricks
14. Workshop
15. Knots Gallery
Forum 2: Community and Marketplace
1. Classifieds
2. Business
3. Woodworking Events
4. Woodworking Clubs
5. Knots Fests
6. Magazine Feedback
7. Website Feedback
8. Knots Help
9. Cafe
Replies
Is there any change of having a 'safety' folder?
My preference would be to have fewer, not more tabs. People don't seem to have any trouble scanning "General" for their topics of interest. If you were able to review past postings over a long time I don't think you'd find that many specialized areas of interest, e.g., carving. On the other hand, a specialized topic that has high traffic, such as finishing, does attract a lot of traffic. Did the previous lineup fail many people? Too many tabs, as I and others have noted, fragments discussions beyond a practical number and threatens a sense of community. You have already lost many of the former "regulars" by decimating the discussions with the effect of making it less easy to use. Working guys don't want more clutter, in effect. For myself, the appeal of Knots is just to check in when I'm taking a break and see what's going on. A lot of tabs makes that too cumbersome while serving more narrow interests. I've been a Knotser for many years and it seems to me that with each revision the website has lost key players -- the very ones who made it vital. Jim
Hello Jim,
That is exactly what we are proposing having only 3 forums (tabs). The first would be General and this would basically encompass all that is within the 6 tabs now. The 2nd forum(tab) would be Community & Marketeplace and the last would still be Members Only. Does that explain it more clearly? Let us know if you have further questions. -Mark
Maybe I misspoke when I used the term "tab". What I see in your proposal is 30 places to look at, not three.
If you think back to how Knots was formatted three months ago, it was one place to look with 15 folders to scroll through.
Currently there are six places to look with about five folders in each.
We're proposing two places to look with as many as 15 folders.
Well, at last! You have taken an important step toward "listening to the voice of the customer." I could give you a lot of advice based on my thirty years in marketing. But that would bore the forum members.
My user comments:
1. Your proposed structure looks like an improvement to me.
2. I would like to be able to select messages that were posted in the previous 24 hours since I visit the forum once a day. It is not clear what "Today" means in the present setup.
3. When drafting a message and accidentally hitting the Preview button instead of the Spell Check button, there is no way to get back to the message and run spell check. Clumsy!
John,
"3. When drafting a message and accidentally hitting the Preview button instead of the Spell Check button, there is no way to get back to the message and run spell check. Clumsy!"
Do you not have the revise button within the Preview page? This is what brings you back to the main reply or post new page. It should be there next to the post button. If you do not please tell me what browser you are using so that I can make sure this gets added to our "fix it" list.Today is any post that that was made within the day that you are posting. So that would not cover the last 24 hours. What I would suggest is use the "last 2 days" and that will sort in chronological order and will essentially give you what you are looking for. -Mark
I am using Safari (Mac) and don't see any controls to change the font settings. I.E. color, size, bold, etc. Is that a fix that could be done?Andy"It seemed like a good idea at the time"
Andy,
Unfortunately that is an issue with the Platform that these forums are created on. I have asked in the past if our forum hosts can fix that and I will inquire again. More TK -Mark
Sysop,
I'm suggesting that there are clumsy functions that might be improved in the new Knots. Sounds like you are telling me to be happy with the clumsy ways. Are you trying to improve Knots or not?
John,
Sorry if I misunderstood your statement. Yes we are most certainly trying to improve knots and your feedback is the best way for us to understand where the shortcoming are. So how could the experience that you describe be improved so that it was not Clumsy? Add the spell check button to the preview page? Please let me know so I can understand what it is that you are looking for. Thanks, -Mark
Mark,
When I mistakenly clicked the Preview button and realized my mistake, my first impulse was to click the Back button on my browser. In general, it is the Aw Shucks solution. However, what happened is that I lost my draft message entirely. Certainly, the Revise button is there as a solution that doesn't lose the draft message. But in my humble opinion, it would be a more intuitive solution if the Back button also gave the same solution.
Best regards, John
John,
Well that certainly is a new one for me. I had never hit the back button at the preview stage. Am wondering now why that happens. I will look into that and see if I can figure out the why then ask Prospero to fix it.
Since we are at it is there anything else like this that you want me to look into? -Mark
Hi Mark,
Since you ask ... maybe I'm the only one who would like to select the messages posted in the previous 24 hours. Best regards, John
I would agree with the, Hand tool ,Power tool & Accessories grouping, and I think most of the others are about right.
Regards Teabag. P.S. how-ever hard you try you won't get it right for all of us.Happy new year to you all.....
For those of us that do not see perfectly it would be nice to be able to set both incoming and outgoing fonts and sizes.
Scott[email protected]
View Image
I didn't notice the Cafe on either list. I hope that is an oversight and not a hint. The Cafe is an important part of these forums and should not fade out. Thanks for your attention.
This looks like a good solution to me. I would only have one suggestion. Instead of four different folders for tools compress it into two. One being "Power Tools, Machinery and Accessories" and the other "Hand Tools and Accessories". That should cover all tool issues without the need of a General Tools folder. What would go in General Tools that would not be covered in Power, Hand or Workshop? This would also leave two open spaces for future folders that may be needed.
Rich
The Professional Termite
Trialnut,
My thoughts exactly. If it is not a hand tool or a power tool, then what is a General Tool? Maybe I am missing something, but hand or power ought to do it.
Alan - planesaw
I have said my piece on all these changes before. I hate to say it, but you and your team have demonstrated virtually no insight into what makes a site like this vibrant, interesting, and useful. I still, for the life of me, can't understand why you feel compelled to divvy up Knots into so many topics. Why, for instance three separate folders for "tools" (3. Power Tools and Machinery, 4. Hand Tools, 5. General Tools) and then a fourth entitled "Blades/Bits/Accessories"?I think it would be perfectly sufficient to have a single forum for 1) General, 2) Tools, 3) Skills and Techniques, 4) Materials, 5) Projects, and 6) Workshop, and I would add 7) Finishing----- leaving you eight other folders for whatever else you wanted to include. I have no quarrel with setting up a separate wing of Knots for those willing to pay a subscription, but sorry to say, all the other changes seem mainly to have been made to justify your existence. Your proposed revisions will help steer the ship back to course, but they would still make for a forum that is more cumbersome than it needs to be. I spend a lot of time at Breaktime, and what makes that forum unique (and vibrant) is the core group of heavy duty professionals who are always willing to share their expertise with the newcomers and less experienced.I think the "new" Knots has become dull and lifeless -- newbies talking to newbies -- and I think you need to give some thought to how you can stem the tide.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
What exactly is "Knots Help". Judging from the variety of posts I see on it, the community doesn't know either. Perhaps a name change is in order. Is it really different from website feedback?
At first glance, Matt, I really like the proposed breakdown. It would help correct what I saw as a major. huge really, flaw in the current system, the difficulty of conducting a search! The two forums/tabs divide things into two very logical major areas and would enable us to search easily.
On to the folder names:
I just saw the Magazine Feedback folder: Yes! What a great addition. Will this info get forwarded to the editor(s) in a timely and consistent fashion? That's really a good thing! As is the Website Feedback folder.
Moving topics to appropriate folders: Somewhere a couple of weeks ago, I think you mentioned that the Prospero software did not allow you guys to do this? Seems essential for a set-up like this? Is that still the case????
Thanks for the opportunity to put our .02 in, greatly appreciated.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
ForestGirl,
In response to your question about moving topics between Folders. Yes we can move discussions from one Folder to another Folder that has always been the case. The issue we ran into when dividing up the forums was that we are unable to move discussions between forums. Once we consolidate it back down into 2 forums it will be much easier for us to manage as well. -Mark
just as long as i dont have to sign up again for the new forums again!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yes at times it gets a little confusing because it takes a little longer to get where you want to be. we can get over it
just another learning curve
The proposal looks fine to me, but I for one liked the new format once I learned how it all worked.
Of course as a newish member, I hadn't spent much time at the old forum before it changed.
I think that whatever you do, some people will gripe; people do not like change, but once it becomes familiar, it gains acceptance.
FWIW
David C
David, welcome. Just to let you know, one of the huge problems with the new format (IMHO) that you might not run into for awhile is the fact that if you want to search for a previous post, using the Advanced Search function, you would have to search each and every Forum separately. So, if you couldn't remember whether said post was in Tools or Workshop or General, for instance, you would have to conduct 3 separate searches to find it.
I was an optimistic, "wait, let's try it out" person until I discovered this problem. That was a fatal flaw, again IMHO. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I would like to second, AndyE's request for font controls/options. I use Firefox.
I also duplicated JohnH's experience when I used the back arrow during one of my very first posts. Broke that habit in a hurry.
My request for a new button improvement would be to have the page numbers also at the top of the page, not just located at the bottom. Or have it always visible on the bottom corner of the page. It will make it easier to bring up the first page again when reading new posts to remind myself what the original post was about.
Thanks for listening, and I do appreciate that the Knots Forum is devolving slightly.
Edited 1/7/2006 4:34 am by QCInspector
First let me say that I have a technical background, but when I use a newsgroup/forum, I just play dumb. I have always liked a large flat file. If I want to find something, I use a search function (and that should be a good one). I hate it when someone wants to impose their idea of how subject matter should be broken up. An example is the something like Amazon. I always use the find key word or search functions to find what I want, I almost never select whether it is a tool or a book. The only exception would be if the subject would straddle several subjects (like a book or a CD). That means that, as Forrest Girl points out, the search function should work across the entire forum (unless the user specifies otherwise with, say a radio button selection).
Now to show you how really unsophisticated someone can use this forum, I thought the headings under knots at the top were a restatement of the headings in the left frame. I never really checked to compare. See, I am not a sophisticated user. I am just a user. I can now see what everyone was saying about how we "lost" old users. I wonder how many others just "landed" on one of the main headings and never thought to look in the others? Also, you will lose those people that find themselves, through habit, just sticking in one of the major headings.
I just thought of one that would be useful to myself and perhaps others that like to browse quickly.
Is is possible to do a "button" next to each topic in the folders that would allow me to hide the topics that don't interest me. I find that when I have been gone for a few days and then come back, the topics can really pile up. If there were some way to hide the ones I am not planning to read so they don't show up each time I come back to a folder I could use my time here more efficiently.
Does that make sense, or do I need to explain it better?
Also, when the last change happened I lost all of my old info, (# of posts, topics I had marke as high interest and topics I had posted.) Can I expect this to be the case again?
Andy
"It seemed like a good idea at the time"
Edited 1/6/2006 10:28 pm ET by AndyE
Thanks for listening to us. Here is my suggestion. It is a little less complicated and I think it would be easier to navigate than the present setup. Remember that we will find a place to post so fewer categories is not a problem. In fact, fewer is better! Sort of the KISS principle (Keep it simple, stupid) that we used when I was in the real world of pre-retirement.
KNOTS Forum 1: General Woodworking
1. General Discussion
2. The Archives
3. Power Tools
4. Hand Tools
5. Hand Work and Joinery
6. Wood and Finishing
7. Jigs, Fixtures, Tips & Tricks
8. Workshop
9. Knots Gallery
Forum 2: Community and Marketplace
1. Project Plans/CAD Software
2. Classifieds
3. Business
4. Woodworking Events
5. Woodworking Clubs
6. Knots Fests
7. Magazine Feedback
8. Website Feedback
9. Knots Help
10. Cafe
Lastly, please DO NOT make us re-register and please DO NOT make us come up with new names because someone else "stole" ours. I am still trying to learn the new names of the "old" people-- or should I say the long time users. BTW, I guess no one wanted my old name as I kept it. :-)
Thanks again for listening.
You better scratch that no. 2!
Leave BT alone! It aint broke.
Doug
Here's a vote for leaving things the way they are.
Still too much work! It's obvious to me that most people write whatever they want in the "general" section. It doesn't matter whether it's tool related, technique related, a rant, etc. People post there the most because they know that's where they'll get the most reponses. It also takes the thinking out of it. If they're looking for something specific, they can simply do a search. The more work you make us do, the less we're likely to use the forum at all.
You should have only three tabs....
1. General Woodworking
2. Archives
3. Classifieds
............If you aren't in control, adjust!
Life may be short but it can be very wide!
I think the attention that you're paying is great. The recent changes are thoughtful and useful. The proposed changes would be an improvement.
But I find that I'm not visiting Knots as often or as deeply as I did before the changes, and have been pondering why; in a nutshell, I'd say that it's because I can't see everything at a glance like I could before. For example, I am more interested in hand tool discussion than, say, Knots Fests; I'd love to go to a Knots Fest, but as a non-wealthy dad, that's not realistic right now. Still, the posts once were right there in a simple straight line with the Tools For WW folder and I always read them and looked at pictures. Folks that went to Lee's KF obviously had a great time. I know that only because I read the posts, looked at the pix. Now, though, I have to click on a whole new section to see them. Since I already know I can't participate, I'm less inclined to view any posts, because I'd have to go through extra steps. It was the same for the Gallery. I looked at pix before, but haven't seen any since the change.
My point is that while your goals of creating more specific categories is laudable, and while I was really looking forward to seeing my interest areas specifically categorized, in the end, the direction Knots is heading is at odds with simplicity and the "impulse buyer" concept. To get me, for one, to view the maximum number of posts--and hopefully participate--they need to be right in front of me. The way things are now, I find that I just check in at hand tools, then log off. Doesn't make me think too highly of myself, but that's what's happening.
Thanks for all the thoughtful efforts.
Charlie Davis
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
Against my better judgement, I'll chime in here. I hardly find anything worth reading at Knots any more, but I would be very interested in having it return to a useful state again, so I'll jump in...
I agree with those who say that the structure of this forum has become too cumbersome. But that's not the real issue. That's the final straw for a lot of people, but a bigger problem has been brewing for a while.
For me, the real problem is the brain-drain that has taken place on Knots recently. Almost all the seasoned woodworkers are gone, leaving mostly a chat-group of socially enjoyable but un-knowledgeable discussions and particpants. Just take a quick survey of the most active discussions and participants and you'll reach the same conclusion.
I have all respect for light-hearted discussions, and every forum has its off-topic moments! But you can't have your most active members posting a majority of their information in light-hearted discussions, silence those who would raise difficult but serious issues, and at the same time expect people to consider this a real woodworking forum.
Just like in real life, online forums create a certain culture, and that culture attracts others of the same mind and spirit, building momentum in a certain direction. It's kind of like a giant cruise ship that has sailed off course. As anyone who knows about big ships can tell you, when you're miles off course it takes a lot of time to turn around and get going in the right direction again!
Let's see how long it takes for this post to disappear!
Edited 1/9/2006 10:18 am ET by MatthewSchenker
Matthew,
I agree that the quality of discussion has really dropped. Where can I find them?
Just took a closer look at Forum 2. While I disagree that it should be eliminated, per the previous post -- Business and Classifieds are important, as is our ability to provide feedback to the magazine and SysOp, and provide help to fellow Knots members who might be having problems with the software. I would suggest, however, combining numbers 3 and 4 -- this is an example of trying to too finely control where things are posted. Even as a combined category, there will be very, very few posts.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks for taking the time to get other's opinions. I'll be brief.
I like your proposal. I would combine the "tool" related categories. Get rid of "archives", get rid of "knots help".
My one question/request: In Forum 1, can there be a single folder which includes "copies" of all recent (say within the last 2 weeks) posts from Forum 1. When you click on them it would take you to the "real" post. (similar to a desktop shortcut). I like to scan all recent posts but I don't like having to enter 15 different folders to do so. Just an idea.....
Thanks,
Steve
"I like to scan all recent posts but I don't like having to enter 15 different folders to do so." The titles of all the woodworking posts will be on one page, Matt's "Forum #1" above, and all the other stuff on another. I'm thinking when you said "folders" you probably meant "forums"???
If you want to see the recent stuff, you can select Show Discussions....2 Days Back or Today. No option for 2 weeks though.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hey forestgirl,
Yes, I did mean to say forums rather than folders (I was thinking "windows").
If I go to Show Discussions (2 days back), I still would need to "enter" each forum to see all of the recent posts, as there are only a few displayed.
Steve
I rely mostly on Unread Messages and Unread Messages to Me when selecting which discussions to show. If the thread list is extensive, I glance at the dates as I go down, and stop looking when I get to the last date/time I know I visited.
Forums are represented by the blue squares up above (Tools, Skills & Techniques, etc., etc.). Folders are the sections within each forum. For instance, in Tools you have Hand Tools, Power Tools, Machinery as 3 of the 7 folders.
When the revamp this New Knots, there will only be 2 Forums to deal with. Yipeeeee.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi Matt,
One of the features of this board that used to be good was the 'threaded' [edit: outline] view of posts - it's now disabled on the 'General' tab.
Is it possible for whatever upgrade to include this - it allows you to skim read the entire board and see what's worth opening.
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 1/11/2006 6:32 pm by eddiefromAustralia
Thanks to everyone for the great feedback. We are going back to the drawing board with these ideas and will keep everyone up to date as we begin implementing changes to the forums.
As of today, this discussion will be available in read-only mode.
Best Regards,
The Taunton Team
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