Made my first kitchen table out of sapelle coated with danish oil.
It has no protective coat from poly because I like the way it looks with only with the oil on the wood. The table is designed to be big, beefy and rustic, so minor stains and knicks don’t matter all that much.
What is the best way to clean the table and how often should I reapply the danish oil?
best,
g
Replies
What do you mean by "Danish Oil"? Danish oil is a marketing term and each manufacturer has his own formulation.
Personally, I would have used my own homemade oil/varnish mixture. Mix equal parts of your favoring varnish or poly varnish, boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. This mixture will be much more durable and long lasting than store bought "Danish Oils".
When the surface begins to look dull, I typically, I will further thin my oil/varnish with mineral spirits and apply it with a gray scotchbrite pad or 4/0 steel wool using light pressure. Then let it set for 10 minutes and then wipe it dry with non-embossed paper shop towels. This will clean off any old gunk and wax and leave a new light finish on the wood.
I used Watco Danish Oil.
Thanks for the info. That helps.
Watco Danish Oil contain very little in the way of resin (varnish). It's mostly linseed oil with a very small amount of varnish.That said, Watco markets a "Rejuvenating Oil" which is mostly mineral spirits with a very small amount of resin. You apply it with 4/0 steel wool and then wipe it dry. I would recommend you make it your self as I described in my first posting.Howie.........
Really? The dude just wanted to know about his Danish oil, which he's already applied.
Personally, I would have used my own homemade oil/varnish mixture. Mix equal parts of your favoring varnish or poly varnish, boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. This mixture will be much more durable and long lasting than store bought "Danish Oils".
Edited 9/3/2008 10:29 am ET by BossCrunk
Seems to me that my second paragraph perfectly addressed his post. To whit:"When the surface begins to look dull, I typically, I will further thin my oil/varnish with mineral spirits and apply it with a gray scotchbrite pad or 4/0 steel wool using light pressure. Then let it set for 10 minutes and then wipe it dry with non-embossed paper shop towels. This will clean off any old gunk and wax and leave a new light finish on the wood."My second posting specifically directed him to the Watco product which claims to do exactly what he wanted.
Howie.........
Howard, he didn't want 'more protection' which your post specifically mentioned as the quoted portion of my post to you shows.
I also like the way Watco danish oil looks but because it water spots so badly it really doesn't work very well as a table finish. About two years ago I started using lacquer over the top of the oil (after a month or so to stablize) and it seems to work great. I'm not saying that everyone should try this but it works for me.
Dennis
Like you, I like the look of oiled wood. Like withthegrain, I have topcoated wood previously treated with Watco with good results.
FWIW, I usually apply the oil with fine sandpaper (400 or so) or a 3M pad, let it dry for a minimum of 48, and preferably 72 hours, and then coat. Poly or shellac both work fine if you don't want to use lacquer.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Wax it once a month and reapply the Danish oil once a year.
It has no protective coat from poly because I like the way it looks with only with the oil on the wood. The table is designed to be big, beefy and rustic, so minor stains and knicks don't matter all that much.
I guess most everybody just glossed over this portion of the original post.
Edited 9/3/2008 9:39 am ET by BossCrunk
>> I guess most everybody just glossed over this portion of the original post.Why do you think that? Seems to me that every suggestion took into account that he used a "Danish Oil" of the type marketed by Watco. The remedies seemed to me to be appropriate.Howie.........
And waxing an oil finish on a KITCHEN table just exacerbates the problem of water marks. Once a year?!!!
The "look of poly" doesn't have to be the only answer to a film finish. A wipe on satin varnish finish will protect the table and can still have an "in the wood" look.Gretchen
The OP didn't mention watermarking to be a problem, that was somebody else's assumption I think.
You need to disclose that you are in the furniture refinishing business and don't do oil.
Of the years that you've posted on this forum I can't recall a piece of furniture or a furniture finishing situation that you've met that didn't require a varnish. You are the quintessential one trick pony when it comes to finishing.
Edited 9/3/2008 10:38 am ET by BossCrunk
I have finished things with danish oil that don't involve table tops and a lot of wear--boxes, etc. I think I know what kind of use/wear a KITCHEN table will get (without being a furniture refinisher) and it does involve water, glasses, pots, pans, plates, etc. Sort of comes with the territory. Been in the kitchen lately? ;o)
Yes, I do often recommend a varnish (non-poly, to be exact) finish WHEN I think it is appropriate. It often IS appropriate. I also always try to point out that if you put a wet glass on a wax finish, you WILL get a ring, especially if someone says it is the be all and end all finish, and the person receiving the advice might not know about the rings. Coasters are a solution for that as is often pointed out, but for a kitchen table, coasters are not always convenient--or remembered.Gretchen
What part of this from the OP do you not understand:
The table is designed to be big, beefy and rustic, so minor stains and knicks don't matter all that much.
People like furniture to wear. People buy old tables all the time precisely for this reason. Not everybody wants to embalm wood so it will look the same 150 years from now as the day it rolled off the finishing assembly line.
You haven't seen a horizontal surface in twenty years you didn't want to varnish and you know it.
Edited 9/3/2008 5:09 pm ET by BossCrunk
It's my preference also--rustic, nicked, etc. Not necessarily water ringed. You've had at it. You can have it Because you have to be so right.
To the OP. The oil will need to be washed down with mineral spirits to remove dirt and gunk. IF you are unlucky enough to have a really bad water ring that turns black, then you will have to do some major repair (unless youdon't care about that either, which is fine--I have some). BUT don't bother to wax it. It will only add a layer of "stuff" you have to remove before you can renew your oil finish.Gretchen
G,
On the kitchen and dining tables I construct goes 5 coats of a high oil-content finish such as Liberon Finishing Oil or similar Danish oil made with a high percentage of Tung oil. The Tung, and whatever the varnishes are in there, build a tough finish from the 3rd coat onwards.
The top coat (when the final oil coat is dry and buffed with very fine abranet or similar) is a single waxing with a beeswax-based finish such as Liberon Black bison wax. I use a colour to suit the wood (dark woods with open grain will show flecks if a light coloured wax is used; and vice versa). The wax helps liquids bead up on the surface and takes any "hit" from various dirts and goos, commonly falling on to kitchen tables.
The tables get rewaxed about once a month, especialy if they get damp-cloth wiped, as such tables often do. This re-waxing takes off or dilutes any sticky dirt and keeps the wax coat intact.
If there is damage from heat, water or alchohol (and the damager has to be quite aggressive to get through the 5 coats of Finishing Oil) then I try ring-removing fluids first. If they don't work, because the underlying wood is damaged, I sand off and re-smooth the damaged patch (or scrape if you prefer) and remove the wax that is surrounding the exposed-wood patch . The oil finish on that patch can then be rebuilt and easily blended with the existing oil finish. Then reapply the wax coat over that whole area, when the oil is dry/buffed.
At first the patch may be lighter or darker than the surrounding surface, as UV has changed the wood colour of the original surface. Usually, the patch will also change colour to match after a month or two. Cherry takes longer than most other woods, as the patch needs to eventually catch up with the still-darkening surrounding. (Cherry keeps on darkening for a good while).
Lataxe
I have a similar dining table. It's walnut coated with linseed oil. I haven't had great success with wax. Hard waxes clog up the pores with white wax I can't buff out. I guess if I rub harder, I'll build enough friction to melt it. Beewax is softer and yellow. I had a little better success with that. But there's really no finish to buff. It's essentially bare wood.
Your oil finish really doesn't protect the wood. Despite what it says on the can, finishes don't preserve or protect- at least according to Bob Flexner. So I think the oil is just a cosmetic thing. Reapply when the finish looks like it needs a reapplication and not more often. You're not "helping to the wood" by reapplying on a scheduled basis. The best thing you can do for your wood is keep it out of sunlight.
Cleaning furniture is tricky. Many cleaners leave stuff behind that eat the wood. Museum conservators often start with a very mild cleanser- A 10% ammonia solution (in water) is a popular first choice. Ammonia evaporates leaving nothing behind. Other stronger agents, like all the petrochemicals, leave behind residue that continue to "clean" the wood. At the museum, when they have to use such chemicals, they flush the surface with distilled water.
I've found ammonia works pretty well. But do be careful with it. It's mild but it does work. By all means test it in an inconspicuous area. And you're supposed to use distilled water with it. I lived in Nashville and they seemed to have a lot of Chlorine in the water there. You might be able to get away with bottled drinking water as an alternative to distilled water (but why). I recommend ammonia to folks who wish to clean old wooden planes. It's also a good degreaser- good for cleaning grungy oil stones and the like.
Adam
thanks much!
Adam,"I haven't had great success with wax. Hard waxes clog up the pores with white wax I can't buff out".Try using a beeswax with colour in it to match the wood. I recommend the appropriate colour of Liberon Black Bison but there are other similar brands. The coloured wax will replace the white wax in the open grain, which will then not appear as those annoying white flecks. A brand of wax with a bit of Carnuba in it is more resilient (and a bit shinier) than beeswax alone, yet the wax remains "soft"."Your oil finish really doesn't protect the wood. Despite what it says on the can....."Poppycock. I suppose you might have used some poor oil-based finishes you read about in ye olde woodworking tome but there are many modern oil-based finishes that do indeed provide significant protection from water, alchohol, gloop and heat of the hot-dish variety (not from woodburn-hot objects though).Lataxe, who prefers his own experience to hearsay and old wives tales.
I am many things, but a chemist is not among them. You'd have to read Flexner. He's published a couple books and had a good article about finishing myths that I recall this from.I've been mixing up my own colored waxes and I think they are not great. I'll have to try what you recommend. Some of them are really stinky- like Briwax. Is the wax you recommend one of those? Adam
Adam,I read the online article from Bob Flexner. He is suspicious of those rather basic oils that make large claims that may be mostly advertising blurb. Linseed oil-based finishes (such as the original Danish Oil) seem to attract his raised eyebrow, especially if they have excessive mineral oil or other thinners in them. However, he allows that Tung oil-based products provide more protection against water. He notes that the tung oil/varnish mixes (such as Liberon Finishing Oil) need 5 - 7 coats to build a decent protective layer, which is in line with my experience. Of course, one may apply more, which increases the "build" of the thin layers of varnish but doesn't seem to allow significantly more oil into the wood. The first application is that during which a decent volume of the oil-wash seems to disappear into the bare wood surface. After that the oil seems to act mostly as a carrier to help in the application of the thin coats of varnish.British and European oils also seem to meet more consumer-friendly standards in respect to the thinners and driers used. Most of those Liberon oil & wax products I mentioned, except those with anti-fungal stuff in them (for outside use), meet BS EN71 Part 3, which seems to refer to ingrediants that must be excluded for a finish to be safe for use on toys, cooking utensils and other items that may get sucked. Stuff like toulmene or turpentine are generally avoided as thinners/driers, unless the oil is a "specialist" one (in which case it doesn't meet that standard). I imagine turpentine-based finishes might be required by restorers, for example, to emulate an original finish. (You might know about that).Coloured waxes using earth pigments which stay in suspension, unlike dyes, seem to work best in filling any open grain with a colour to match the wood. Pigments don't fade, as dyes are prone to do. Perhaps if you want to mix your own wax, you might try the various earth pigments sold by Liberon or other vendors of similar finishing or artists products?Lataxe
Wow, we agree.
As to wax build-up in pores - a horsehair shoebrush is the fix. Or just leave it.
On a big rustic table I'd slap a little wax, buff it up and move on. And like you said, re-oil when you feel like it though I'm sure I would (and do) hit it at least once a year.
Edited 9/4/2008 9:30 am ET by BossCrunk
Ammonia strips wax and associated grunge for sure. A high-solvent wax accomplishes much the same thing, and certainly so after a few cycles.
A lot of times the solvent is mineral spirits on waxes (like butchers) which I'm told leaves a residue (which is bad for the wood). At the museum they use Briwax which I think uses toluene as a solvent which does evaporate completely.This is really outside my area of expertise. I encourage those interested in the subject to read up on stuff from Peter Geddys, Bob Flexner, or seek out resources for museum conservators. Adam
This is really outside my area of expertise.
Huh?
At this point, nothing I'm building needs museum conservators' techniques. Does one need to be an expert (or consult one for that matter) to apply a thin coat of a decent, recognized brand of wax, let it dry, and buff to a pleasing sheen? Lord, I hope not.
Ya'll make my head hurt more often than it should.
Edited 9/4/2008 9:56 am ET by BossCrunk
I get the sense that woodworkers post here (and elsewhere) to find out the "right" answer. I've got B for #29, what have you got? You know what I mean?I think Flexner is right. I think wood finishing manufacturers have written a lot of baloney on the backs of their bottles and cans to differentiate their products from the dozens of other products to which they are chemically or functionally identical.I doubt Butcher's paste wax will negatively effect anything we make in our lifetimes. It may not even effect the resale value when the vultures clean out our homes after we're dead because our kids don't like our style.I read the original question as "what's best to protect, preserve an oiled finish". So I'm commenting on that aspect of it based on what I've read and heard. But yours is a good point. Do whatever you like. Nothing I'm talking about is going to significantly change anything we make. The only thing I would add is, don't fool yourself into thinking you are protecting the wood. Most finishes we apply are detrimental to the wood.AdamP.S. I spelled his name wrong, it's Peter GEDRYS. (I know your name Peter. It was a typo). He writes for FWW. I talked to him on the phone once or twice. He's one heck of a nice guy and unlike me, a real expert. Maybe someone can email him and ask for his thoughts on this subject.
I'm simply hard-pressed to imagine a scenario where woodworkers are going to quit waxing the furniture that they make.
I'm not telling people not to wax. I'm saying finishes don't really help the wood. I think the OP is asking what he's SUPPOSED to do. Well I say, do whatever you want. It's not actually helping the wood to wax it or finish it. If you want to help the wood, keep it out of sunlight. Again, this is really over my head. I really recommend folks dig into this if it is of interest to them.Adam
I'm not sure what you mean by "helping" the wood. Inside somebody's home, I assume that an article of wooden furniture would last indefinitely. It's not going to rot and fall apart finished or not.
Outside, paint and other finishes most definitely appear to delay the onset of rot.
What exactly are you trying to say or assert?
I think Flexner is right. I think wood finishing manufacturers have written a lot of baloney on the backs of their bottles and cans to differentiate their products from the dozens of other products to which they are chemically or functionally identical.
This made me curious so I took a look at what I have on the shelf at the moment:
Fiddes Wax - no ad copy at all other than "caring for wood for four generations."
Myland's Wax - "...are manufactured from the finest ingredients including pure beeswax and carnauba wax. Available in clear and various natural wood colours that enhance the colour of any wood will help hide any surface scratches; the waxes can be used on most wooden surfaces. Do not use coloured waxes when they may come into contact with pale clothing or cloth."
Liberon Professionals Wax - "... is a very rich quick drying wax for use by the trade on new finishes for protection and polishing, and for the maintenance, care, and restoration of furniture, woodwork, and antiques (to help remove water stains, superficial scratches, blemishes, or to enhance the wood). Professionals wax is also used as a finish on bare wood in such applications as decorative turnery."
Behr Tung Oil Finish - "fortified with U.V.I to screen out the sun's harmful rays;" "penetrates, seals, repels water (it does as a matter of fact), natural hand rubbed luster with wax."
That's it.
Edited 9/4/2008 1:58 pm ET by BossCrunk
Adam - From a chemistry perspective, I wouldn't recommend bottled water (for drinking, either - but that's another post!). Some "bottled water" is indeed purified by reverse osmosis/de-ionization which removes the minerals, but some bottled water isn't, and even some brands that are de-ionized actually add minerals back into it before bottling. So if one wants to avoid the chance of leaving behind mineral stains from a cleaning solution, "distilled" water from the store is a better choice than bottled "drinking water".
On a highly amusing side note, some bottled water brands are nothing more than the local municipality's tap water, perhaps sanitized by ozone. And, of course, at approximately 100 times the cost of the same municipal tap water from the actual tap...
Danish oils, Etc. What I usually use. When cured about a week I apply wax and buff.
I have had good luck refinishing.
I use alcohol or mineral spirits to remove the wax. I then rub-out the surface with a grey/gray? 3M pad wet with the oil and wipe with a clean lint free cloth. A linen cloth also works well, a bit abrasive but very little.
Even when applying the first finish, the gray 3M pad will take out 'fine' scratches when lubricated with the oil.
If the surface damage is extreme I use 800 grit wet/dry automotive sandpaper wet with oil.
Works for me.
Don't bother to try to find out anything else about anything. Just do what Boss says. He knows, He says so.Gretchen
Gretchen has a point there!
Gretchen,You have discovered the essential nature of ole Bossy Boot in short order. Perhaps you are psychiatrist and thus able to get to the essentials of a personality without being distracted by the postures, shouting, violent arm-waves and other antics associated with the Napolean complex? :-)We must let the Bosser be hisself as this is part of what makes Knots such a Fine Playground - all the kids are individuals exhibiting between them a great range of characteristics, behaviours, mad belief-systems and so forth.Also, if the Boss disappeared (along with his many aliases) I would have to bate Adam even more!And don't forget: on many occasions he does actually impart some wisdom and cut to the quick of the matter under discussion.Lataxe, a Boss-lover (not that kind).
The problem, Gretchen, is that anytime somebody mentions oil and wax you go into paroxysms about 'protection' and white rings and all manner of horror stories of disobedient rugrats, Cro-Magnon cocktail party guests, and furniture unable to shake off having had an M1 Abrams tank run over it.
You really should run with a better crowd.
Edited 9/5/2008 3:06 pm ET by BossCrunk
You mention white rings. My wife was concerned about that when I was "finishing" our dining table. BTW, the table I'm talking about recently appeared in print. Anyway, I got a white ring once. I forgot how I got rid of it. Haven't had one in the years since. I think this is one advantage of having essentially no finish. The table has a few coats of boiled linseed oil and I rubbed it with beeswax a long time ago and not since. It gets all manner of stuff spilled on it as I like to see it "English style", sans table cloth. It gets the wet (and sometimes nasty) rag treatment and it's really held up great for two pieces of walnut glued together.I know there are horror stories about finishes and wood protection. But this table has been fine. Also, I wainscoted our laundry room. I was worried about the extremes of humidity and heat so I polyurethaned it. The white pine has since turned a nice pumpkin but the poly just looks nasty to me. I see nothing nice about it. It doesn't look like a rich varnish. Maybe protecting wood isn't all it's cracked up to be.Adam
Pretty much my sentiments on the subject.
Edited 9/5/2008 3:07 pm ET by BossCrunk
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