I propose that the premium hand tool makers and retailers out there, those that we all continuously rave about on these forums (you know who you are!), and others, hold an unannounced, one-day, 25% off sale this weekend to celebrate the economy, labor day, back to school, end of summer, return of the woodworking season, etc. What do you say, guys, your fans (and financiers) are here on these forums.
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Replies
It's a great idea, but my tool fund, and many others, is extremely low due to back to college expenses for two collegiate young adults that just so happened to share my last name. Perhaps waiting until the christmas market would be a wee bit better.
Jeff
Exactly why I thought of it. My daughter went off to college monday!
Jeff,
So, why not go the whole hawg? I makes and gives away furniture so why shouldn't tool sellers do the same? I know - I'll swap a lurverly oak desk of the A & C type for one o' them Sauer & Steiner jointers (24 incher plis)! The plane-makin' fellah will be gettin'a fantastic bargain.
Hopefully there will be no taxes involved, since moolah is absent from the transaction, so we may congratulate ourselves concerning the savings as well. Huzzah!!
Lataxe, seeking to evolve away from aggressively exploitative relationships (i.e.capitalism).
Barter is good.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
You are aware that most of them would be losing money at such prices, right?
Here's another idea: How about when you go to work next week, your boss pays you 25% less? Neat idea?
Have you noticed that some of the top makers are swamped with work? Here's a better idea. How about the premium tool makers start raising prices to reduce demand? I can think of a couple makers who are purposely holding prices down despite overwhelming demand and rising costs of materials.
I think what you wrote here and elsewhere was intended as a slightly flattering joke. Can you understand how it might sound like a slap in the face to those tool makers?
Adam
Adam, my friend, I hope you are going to get a three day weekend, with plenty of time in the shop this Labor Day. You seem a tad wound up.
I think the OP was being light hearted. I think any premium tool makers who read his post would understand that and not look for a way to interpret his wishful thought as some sort of slap at them.
I read your forme building article today. It was fun. I particularly like the look of the table and bench together as shown at the end of the article.
This was a strong issue of PWW overall for me - lots of stuff for a guy who leans to hand tools. While Dunbar's stuff was basic, it's funny how it's useful to reread those basics sometimes - it reminded me how a divider will be useful on something I'm about to do. Chris' tear out musings were entertaining too.
Seriously, have a good weekend. And as the Sex Pistols used to say ... NEVER MIND THE BOLLOCKS!! ;-)
I'm sure you're right. I apologize. Yes, I'm working very very hard. Many spinning plates. Time for beer! Thanks for setting me straight.Adam
Adam,it was meant to be light hearted. Sorry to hit a whatever bone. As I explained to one poster, my daughter started college this week... I've turned somewhat into a toolaholic, thanks to these forums. Gotta quit the forums and do more work, and you should, too. Otherwise, I might buy another one of your saws.
jacksykesville, md
Edited 8/29/2008 5:30 pm ET by sykesville
As a matter of fact, hey, that IS my saw hanging on the wall in the opening shot of the Oct issue. No sh*t. Go ahead now, tell the audience it's true.
Edited 8/29/2008 5:36 pm ET by sykesville
Yes true. Just got my copy. Second from the right. 3 screw kenyon clone. And a fine saw it is too.Adam
Edited 8/29/2008 8:09 pm ET by AdamCherubini
Have you seen the saw files Joel at TFWW sells? I'm having a hard time figuring out who makes them. If they are Nicholson, I'd probably get them (I have a pile of vintage saws I need to sharpen, aside from the day I'll need to sharpen that one from you). I trust Nicholson, but don't trust no-name jobs. Or, can someone recommend another place to get good files for western-style handsaws? thanks (and, not looking for 25% off).
Edited 8/29/2008 8:27 pm ET by sykesville
Pretty sure they are Grobet. I've not had good luck with the Nicholson's I've purchased recently. May have been a bad batch. When cutting new teeth, you really need the corners to hold up. The Grobet files seem to be better.Adam
They are Grobet. We used to carry Nicholsons but quality went down (we might have a few old ones left but I wouldn't swear it). The picture on the website is very old and needs to be replaced.Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
Thanks, Joel. I'm glad they are Grobet. It was just that I saw nothing on the site to indicate the maker. I understand from several sources that the Grobets outperform the Nicholsons in saw files.
I like Grobet files. They are Swiss and very nice! I have also been VERY impressed with the files from Pferd (German I think). Either are very well made and will easily outwork and outlast Nicholson files by wide margins (like for chainsaw filing I have found that the Pferd files will each do the work of about 5 Nicholson files). So file this (;-).
Samson,
I just got that issue of Pop Woodworking but found it rather poor, not least because it was mostly about tools rather than woodworking. Still, it did have that G&G article, which contained many useful photos.
One is slightly shame-faced to admit it but I found that Cherubini article you mention the most interesting of all the content. Although I think the bloke makes a mountain out of a small hill sometimes, the items made and the techniques discussed were very interesting and informative. In fact, I've not seen before such elaborate furniture made from green wood, either in an article or in the various clearings or cottages of my Cumbrian green wood working cronies. I'll be showing Mr C's article to a number of them with a "why not try this" suggestion. They seem stuck with making swills, pegs and ladderback chairs.
Perhaps Mr C will have that beer and stop fretting about the Many Wrongs Around Him, at least for an hour or two. One day he will stop being a daft lad and be hisself. There are signs and portents in his more recent articles, which have much less of the bombo trumpet about them than heretofore.
Lataxe, Cherubini-bater (it's not an illegal yet!).
You're going to love what's coming next, Lataxe. I hereby dedicate my up coming self flagellation to you. Yes, beer already taking hold. Mood lightening. Saw dust washed down stream.Adam
>found article of other magazine rather poor<About two years ago I dropped Fine Wood Working mag because I was reading some of the old things over and over.I "upgraded" to a subscription to a european wood mag that cost quite a bit more.I am now back with Fine Wood Working. I now realize what we have here.In my opinion this is not only one of the best wood working magazines it is one of the best magazines in the world today (it is the best that I know of bar none). I take car mags, metal working mags, jewelry mags etc.One thing I enjoyed in the european mag; some of the articles closed with a bit of a personal note. What the person thought of the piece, what they learned and would do differently or other interesting side notes.My only disappointment is my local used book store never gets used old copies of FWW at all any more. I used to enjoy going "hunting" for missing back issues to my collection but no more. I cut up the new ones and tear out pages to add to my "how to" files. I can not bring myself to cut up one of the old over sized ones even if I have two of the same issue.So a hard act to follow. The other guys are doing great work. FWW is just, even better.
Been a while since I hit Knots--Jack, you've been a busy guy!
Have you noticed that some of the top makers are swamped with work? Here's a better idea. How about the premium tool makers start raising prices to reduce demand? I can think of a couple makers who are purposely holding prices down despite overwhelming demand and rising costs of materials.
Yeah, as you have discovered, Jack was being a bit tongue in cheek. I have to say that this post as posted elsewhere and the aftermath made me spit out some coffee in laughter when I read them--check the "The REAL reason Mike Wenzloff stopped taking orders" post on WoodNet. That post was in response to my tongue in cheek reply to the original 25% off post.
Not certain if I am being indicted for artificially low prices here. They have long needed to go up but I have been a fool about it. Which is one reason why I suspended adding names to the list on August 4th. There will be price increases when we resume. Sort of locked in at the moment for a few orders, though. I don't know what the increase will be on direct orders, but there is a bit of cost savings of the raw materials when the economy of scale rises.
Bit for fun, I also told Jack yet elsewhere that I will do his proposed uannounced thing. Sounds fun, a way to spice up the day. Speaking of spicing up the day. I have work to do.
So y'all have a great remainder of a holiday in honor of labor. Which I will honor by laboring. Cannot think of a better way.
Take care, Mike
I know that you offer very good prices for your saws. I held a saw making seminar where I discussed this in detail. Saw making is labor intensive and the materials can be expensive. But FWIW, I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote what I did. There are others and I don't mean me.Adam
Hi Adam--even so, they have been too low. The rise isn't for managing business growth, nor really to cover rising raw materials per se. Simply because it *is* a lot of work to start out with a bunch of raw pieces-parts and turn it it to a something usable by another person as you know as well.
And fwiw, LV has raised it prices on the saws. Something I just noticed the other day. The Best Things did a few/several months ago. And I read that LN will be raising their prices effective September 1--except the saws...
btw, Lataxe mentioned the latest issue of PopWood. I agree that your article was pretty darn good and stood out in contrast to the others. But then, there are only a couple places I quickly turn to when a new issue arrives, yours is first and then Chris' editorial and the back matter. Then it goes into "the room" where it is read as opportunity permits.
Well, finally dragged my bottom into the shop. Time to work. Sanding today. Lots and lots of sanding.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
I hope you don't feel the need to justify whatever price you charge for your fine, fine saws in terms of rising material costs, business overheads etc.. Your saws are worth what we buyers are prepared to pay for them.
For myself, I am willing to pay more than you curently charge for such quality and performance. Tools such as yours need only be bought once in a lifetime and are a pleasure both to use and to have. Anyway, after I polish mine they will shurely be worth many hudreds of dollars in the 2023 e-bay marketplace. :-)
Lataxe, who has sawn quite a few fine tenons lately, courtesy of mwenz.
Sir Lataxe,
Nope, I don't feel the need to justify much in life. But this thread reminds me. Time to remove the prices on the custom saws page.
Lataxe, who has sawn quite a few fine tenons lately...
Hey, me too! I have 4 half-finished woodworking projects started. Feels good. The closest to being finished (and the first one I will complete) is a stool for this sorry old bottom to sit upon when running the mill. It has more tenons than I have sawn for some time.
The next is a widget box. Just had some nice off-cuts from resawing handle stock. 8 mm or so thick, about 10" in length. I had 3 pieces, so two became the front/back pieces and one cut in half for the sides. Tried my hand at cutting DTs. What do you know, they worked out. Need to make the bottom and top panels, glue it together and saw the lid off.
So it isn't all work and no play. Of course, I started them 3 months ago...
Take care, Mike
Adam,I understand the poster's desire obtain high quality tools and maybe the only way for them to do it right now is if the price is low.My firm belief is one should pay for quality and those who produce quality should set the price accordingly. Micro-tool breweries are a hard road to income and I can appreciate that those who do it have a huge desire to be in the business and make sacrifices to stay in it.We, in the US, have gotten so used to getting everything cheap that we don't understand a reasonable price for quality. It hurts the tool makers and it hurts the furniture makers too. Am I naive? If so - feel free to comment!Huck
I agree. Isn't it great that we're having this discussion about boutique tool makers and their feelings though. I'm thrilled they even exist (the tool makers, that is, not the feelings). I've been overwhelmed by the support I've received, both in terms of customers and just well wishers. I don't find tool making lucrative. I don't find furniture making lucrative either, frankly. Making money on someone else's efforts or purchasing is lucrative. My brain just doesn't work that way though. Too bad for my kids!Adam
Edited 9/2/2008 7:45 am ET by AdamCherubini
Well, keep at it buddy. You make a difference, as do the other quality makers out here do and there are still people around who appreciate what quality is worth.Feelings? Validated!Your kids? - that's a different discussion. . .Huck
Huckleberry,>Many people don't understand a reasonable price for quality because we have gotten inferior things cheep for so long<Exactly right !Interestingly the "way better " stuff costs a little more but the truly good enough ready to go out of the box stuff is still rare and needs to cost considerably more because the attention to detail that is necessary to MAKE it ready to go out of the box takes time !One either buys the truly good stuff, if it is even available, or spends shop time finishing the tool. This is because the majority of the consumers are dilettantes not people who make a living with these tools. The demand for serious precision in registration surfaces and proper geometry of cutting edges is simply not there.The new people coming up and buying tools have, for the most part, not had a chance to use a properly prepared tool. In the old days, I assume ( I wasn't there ), the student would use the master's tools and so would recognize what a properly configured tool could do. And so if their newly purchased tool did not live up they would be down the tool dudes throat until expectations were met.Once they learn they may need to travel a thousand miles to a decent wood working school and then pay hundreds to take a class to even experience a properly set up tool, maybe, they may find they are saving money by staying home and buying the top shelf tool. Especially saws !I have returned saws that were the best I could find because for instance what one manufacturer called a cross cut turned out to be, when inspected with a jewelers loop, to be a rip they had nicked every twentieth tooth, sort of, to put some semblance of cross cut bevel on.New tool buyers: you may need to spend hundreds of dollars on a hand saw if you want it to cut easily and where you intend it to cut or expect to spend way more than that in your time learning to sharpen it yourself. A most frustrating endeavor when you have no idea how and would rather be cutting joints in your wood. And yes it is that important!In the same frenzy of breath I will say somehow the Japanese put decent even excellent teeth on their saws for under two hundred dollars. One cannot cut everything with japanese saws. I have tried. There are reasons to use both styles of saw.Edited 9/1/2008 7:06 pm by roc
Edited 9/1/2008 7:19 pm by roc
...I will say somehow the Japanese put decent even excellent teeth on their saws for under two hundred dollars...
If the Japanese saw isn't hand-made, the teeth are cut using a CBN wheel on a CNC controlled machine. It is really quite impressive for the 150k it costs.
Take care, Mike
Thanks Mike,Guess we are back to: if we want a well made western style saw it costs money to sharpen it by hand and we will need to pay the maker to do this.
Nah, a person should sharpen their own saws. Really. Sharpening a handsaw isn't any harder than sharpening a chisel. In fact, a saw is much more forgiving. Paying another to sharpen a hand saw is like hiring the local sharpening service to do plane irons, chisels etc.
And besides, I cannot imagine being without a particular one of my user saws for any reason.
There are plenty of instructions out there. A good book to have for a shop reference is Leonard Lee's book on sharpening. There's a decent chapter on sharpening saws, and the other chapters are well worth the price too.
Take care, Mike
If I may just chime in here quietly....
Mike said "A person should sharpen their own saws-really". ----I think a person should know how to do it and what is required for the job-but it is such a pain that it is best left for someone who actually likes doing it /makes a living from it.
I have sharpened a few saws using the instruction booklet from the Wiltshire File Co. that was supplied with the Spear and Jackson saws I bought long back when tool shops were staffed by folk who knew what they were selling.
I still have that 20 page manual, a good item indeed. If anyone wants I can scan it and send.Philip Marcou
"but [sharpening saws] is such a pain that it is best left for someone who actually likes doing it /makes a living from it.You could say that about all tools, though couldn't you? I don't find sharpening fun in general, but I do it because I prefer to work with sharp tools!Adam
Hey Philip, howzit?
And I would generally respond to knowing how and not doing as a waste of time. I mean, unless one is planning on being stranded on an island with no other humans and happens to have a hand saw and files with them, knowing how and not doing is a waste of brain cells.
That said, I would love to see a scan of said booklet. I do have a seminar to teach this November...
Take care, Mike
Mike,
I will send you a copy either by computer or by mail .
Philip Marcou
Philip,if you email it to Mike, can you cc me? ([email protected]) thanks.
Mike, Lee, Joe, Paddy and all:
Here comes the saw sharpening manual, first half.....Philip Marcou
P.S: open them from left to right-first image is cover and back then page 1, then pages 2-3, 4-5 and so on.
I will do the rest tomorrow.
Edited 9/3/2008 8:12 am by philip
Cool--thank you Philip!
Ephemera like this is wonderful to me. Better than the Sunday comics...
Take care, Mike
The rest of the saw comic.The first one should have said "pages 12-13"Philip Marcou
philip. many thanks, the lads will be pleased. more news at 11:00. Paddy
Philip,
A great big thanks from me as well! Hope things are going well for you.
Talk to you soon,
Lee
Thanks, Philip, for taking the time and effort to post. A very helpful compliment to a video I just watched (Tom Law's). While I CAN read, I also like to see such skills in action.
Philip,Thank you for taking the time to post the sharpening booklet !
Phillip
Being a fellow resident of kiwistan I would like to know the exact whereabouts of a "someone who actually likes doing it /makes a living from it".
Rgds
John(who owns some woefully blunt saws)
John,
I haven't used anyone here but would guess that Waikato Saw Doctors in Hamilton can do it- they certainly have a good reputation with powered blades.
I have been doing my own-which gives the lie to what Mike has said-ha ha.(;)Philip Marcou
philip,
I'd love to see the pamplet as well. Not that my saws are dull - hell, they aren't even made yet ;)
But they will need a touching up at some point in their lifetime, I'm sure.
Cheers,
Lee
OOOOHHHH YYYYAAAAI sharpen all my stuff but the point is how does a new person find out how a saw should cut? All that extra set almost everything comes with is a crime but a new person doesn't know that and just figures they are awful at following a line when half the problem is the saw.ALSO ! when I order a saw advertised as a cross cut by ####top shelf American manufacturer and I get it and it is a rip with some half done attempt to disguise it as a cross cut and now I need to do major surgery instead of a touch up I am not happy.A year ago I ordered a coarse rip back saw and filed it cross cut because I was cutting the huge dovetails for my work bench and the coarsest cross cut available was no where near capable. So I am getting used to paying top dollar and then doing all the work as well.Keep in mind most of the japanese saws are resharpened by the makers. Most of the craftsmen using them wouldn't consider sharpening them. They have three (one out in the mail for sharpening)Also I am a metal worker first and a woodworker second. Some people just don't do well with a file etc. You and I are fortunate that we can do this.Finally cooling off in Colorado so I am happy, happy !
"how does a new person find out how a saw should cut?"
Sorry- just have to chime in here-again-as that is a Very Important question.
You find out by buying a top quality saw. It is not as if it is a huge capital outlay when compared to , er, certain planes NOT made in New Zealand. You could also attend a demonstration , but you will still want the saw .Philip Marcou
My point all along several entries back was I was agreeing with people that saw makers are not charging enough. That for the customer to get a truly great saw the maker needs to make more money so they feel like they can take the time to finish the job and that the customer needs to be educated to realize what it takes to make a top end saw, or any other tool. As it has been I buy top quality American or English made western style saws e.g., LN and I get misrepresented poorly sharpened saws and other tools. Specifically the deal I keep mentioning with the rip touched up sort of to be cross cut and billed as a crosscut, rip backsaws with too much set that cut to one side or the other, with backs not straight when I look down the spine.I bought two of the largest LN rip back saws and had to straighten the spine on both. I bought them in separate shipments over time so is a pretty good representation of what the average Joe will get when they order. One I refiled to crosscut.The badly filed crosscut was many years ago, the bowed rips were about a year ago.Ok. Now. Lets say I was a person who had never used a decent back saw and I tried to use one of those three saws. I would get:1. Inability of the badly filed cross cut to track a knife line and tearout on the back side.
2. The two big rip saws would bind, jump out of the cut and would not follow a long (3 inch) line on top of the board because the backs were bowed on both of them and a bit too much set. Neither would cut down a vertically straight line.If I am a new wood worker I just figure all this pain is part of living. And this is how a back saw should behave. If I took Philip Lowe's class and used his saws I bet I would have a quite different experience. Yes?But.After returning the first saw and over hauling the other two the end result was night and day because I knew how they could cut if someone took the time ! I wish I could have just used them out of the box. I would have payed more to have been able to go to work on my project rather than having to make a new project out of these saws.Interestingly it was astounding how much I had to bow the brass back of those big saws to straighten them out. The backs were not badly bowed but the brass spine was surprisingly resistant to change.Sorry for the confusion. These are facts as I experienced them. I don't want to single out LN, I have had problems with other top shelf brands over the years, I love LN tools and use them every day and recommend other people buy them ! I do wish they would bump up their prices and take even more pains to refine their tools, then we would all win.I do appreciated the attention they are giving the back sides of the plane blades finally ! They now grind out the coarse grinding arcs. They are much smoother and flatter than years ago. I have worn out coarse diamond plates getting the blades flat ! Hours of effort that could have gone into my wood working.Edited 9/3/2008 10:50 pm by roc
Edited 9/3/2008 10:55 pm by roc
roc,I too am an avid "collector" of LN tools, and will continue to be when I need something they have, and I too recently (like 2 months ago) bought an LN backsaw: the large Tenon in crosscut, for a very specific purpose. Mine was bowed. I sent it back and there were no questions asked. The one I received in return was, out of the box, and still, in need a good touching up though. As far as whether price increases (I've already stated in another forum that price increases do make good sense) will improve the quality of a product already for sale by a manufacturer, I don't see it, unless enough pressure was applied on them regarding any certain products. This also is not meant to be an LN bashing post, just a response to your assumption that the price increases are intended to increase quality. No manufacturer that I've noticed ever said that was the intention.
Edited 9/4/2008 3:09 pm ET by sykesville
>Keep in mind most of the japanese saws are resharpened by the makers. Most of the craftsmen using them wouldn't consider sharpening them. They have three (one out in the mail for sharpening)<I don't see how that adds to the logic of whatever you're trying to argue.Last time I looked, I was using Western saws and I wasn't trying to duplicate the methods of Japanese woodworkers. Western saws are easy to sharpen. Back when trim carpenters used mostly hand tools, they sharpened their saws quite often. I'm traveling in Montana this summer and didn't bring a large hand saw with my tool kit. I've been using a pre-WWII Atkins that my host owned that could probably be bought for $5-$10 at an antique store/ flea mkt. Took me 40 minutes to clean it up and less than 20 min. to sharpen it. 9 TPI crosscut. Been using it all week. Works like a dream, tracks straight, no problem. The teeth are uniform and set correctly and shaped like little shark's teeth. If you nick your hand with it, it will draw blood.But you're saying,...if the Japanese do things a certain way, then I should too? Not that I got anything against them - unlike most people here, I even lived two years of my life in Japan. I've got a few Japanese tools. But your logic, such as it is, doesn't sway me, as I'm pretty much settled in to being an American woodworker. As for all the other stuff that's bandied about - the idea that you need to buy a real expensive tool to see how a good one works, etc. - there's more than one theory on that idea. The theory that I like, and I have used, is that some well-made and tried-and-true tools are "self-teaching," i.e. if you fool around with them enough, you will learn how to tune or sharpen them and how to use them well. They will become almost an extension of your hand or arm, and thus an extension of your mind. Cooling here in Montana, too.Good luck, Ed
There have been a few dudes in Canada, Maine, Oregon, and Jawja that have gotten entirely too much of my money lately. I vote that you endure the same dog-food eating, cant-afford-a-vacation, tools-or-gas?, bill-hiding trials and tribulations that we all have to endure:-))
If you build it he will come.
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