Replies

1. 
   Rich14 | May 11, 2007 09:13pm | #1

   Kevin

   I always prefinish, then touch-up as necessary after cutting and installing. Either way is ok, depending on experience and skill, but I find I make a terrible mess trying to finish in place.

   Rich

2. 
   stantheman | May 12, 2007 05:56am | #2

   I just had a conversation with a couple of local finish carpenters who swear it is standard practice here to put up first then finish - stain and topcoat. 

1. 
   SteveSchoene | May 12, 2007 02:17pm | #3

   That is likely be true, but also likely to be based on the fact that in pro work the two jobs are done by separate trades, so that first first dry fit cutting (carpenter), then finishing (painter), and then installing (carpenter), and then touching up (painter) requires a lot of coordination between painters and trim carpenters, not to say inefficiency from moving in and out of jobs so many times.  Not an issue if you are doing your own work. 

3. 
   nikkiwood | May 12, 2007 05:01pm | #4

   I am guessing you're taking about cabinetry here.

   I can't imagine there would be any advantage to staining/finishing moldings prior to installing them. Although there are many cabinetmakers who prefer to stain and finish parts before assembly -- particularly with a piece that would be tricky to finish once it's together.

   As far as architectural moldings are concerned (window/door casings, crown moldings, etc.) I think it is a lot easier to finish them before installation. Often times, with either stain or paint grade, I will do the final coat after installation. That way you can fill the nail holes, do your final coat, and avoid edging.

   ********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-

1. 
   Kevin | May 12, 2007 05:59pm | #5

   Sorry I wasn't very clear. Yes, I'm talking about architectural mouldings. But more specifically I'm really most interested in how folks deal with decorative trim type mouldings.

   I don't know what the proper term for these mouldings is but they're sorta like a thin picture frame tacked on the side of a wall or cabinet or column where the background wood grain is all going one direction and part of the moulding is going cross-grain to form a square or rectangular frame.

   The reason I asked is because we are once again doing some high end fixturing and cabinetry for the LDS church at my work and a number of components get these decorative trim frames tacked on. I've maintained all along that it's insane to put them on first because it creates a nightmare for both the prep sanding and the finishing where the finish is either a multi-step color or a spray-only (aka "no wipe") stain because of the cross grain and because of the three-dimensional nature of the mouldings. I lose the argument every time because the lead builder and his team who always get assigned these high end finish jobs (much to my consternation) insists that he can't get the joints to look good without having to sand them flush and backfill gaps. Which is BS, IMHO. But I lose nevertheless. However... I'm humble enough to want to know if perhaps both of us are being stubborn. So I figured I'd query my peers here and see what y'all do with this type of situation.

1. 
   nikkiwood | May 12, 2007 11:49pm | #6

   I am sympathetic to the builder's point of view. No matter how carefully you make the mitre cuts, in cases where the joint is highly visible (and it is a very high end job) it would be best to lightly sand over the joint so the two sides blend seamlessly. On the other hand, I dab stain on the cut joints for outside corners, then burnish them with the same tool you use for a cabinet scraper. This technique forces the cut edges down slightly so the joint is about as tight and invisible as it can be.Using this technique allows me to prefinish all the moldings, and saves the considerable time and hassle of trying to finish them once installed. In your case, I assume the builder is taking care of the post-installation finishing, so I would guess he wants to keep this part of the job for himself. And too, maybe he doesn't know about the burnisher, which is a standard trick among trim carps -- since it is fast, easy, and effective. I've seen some do it with the round blade of a screwdriver, but I like a regular burnisher, since it is slightly oval in shape and comes to a point -- thus giving you a facade to burnish even complicated moldings.********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-

1. 
   Kevin | May 13, 2007 12:23am | #7

   I'm sympathetic to it as well. But it seems to me that there's really two issues here, or rather two other ways of doing it besides mitreing and attaching the unfinished mouldings to an unfinished substrait and then trying to finish all of it at once.

   One is to do as picture frame shops do it and prefinish the mouldings in lengths and then mitre and attach them into a finished frame which can then be attached to the finished case/wall/column/whatever. The other is to pre-assemble so that sloppier mitres can be fixed, finish it and then attach the finished frame to whatever it's to be attached to.

   The hang-up at my work revolves around the perception that having to fill pin-nail holes after the fact won't look as good and the desire to use glue on the backside.

   Perhaps I'm mistaken about this but isn't it routine for finish carpenters to mitre and attach prefinished trim in houses, including high-end houses?

1. 
   nikkiwood | May 13, 2007 02:03am | #8

   You know how this stuff goes -- everybody has their own preferences. If you and I were working together, I would vote for your method -- assembling the pieces, then finishing them. I would use a tiny bead of that new construction adhesive, Power Grab, and affix them with a 23 Ga pinner, assuming they had some kind of darkish stain. If you rolled your burnisher over those tiny nail holes, you might not even be able to see them. Otherwise, I would mix up Color Putty to get a dead-on match for the stain, and once filled, go around and touch each filled hole with a small, sharp artists brush lightly loaded with finish -- so's to match the sheen level of the rest of the finish.But --- you're probably not going to convince the builder that this is an acceptable method, since he has already decided the way he wants to do it.EDIT: In answer to your last question, if the trim carp is not responsible for the finishing, then he doesn't care, and probably prefers to put the stuff up without a finish. But viewing the issue from the overall perspective of the job, yes, it makes a lot of sense to prefinish the materials before installation.But the general rules of common sense are not always the rules that govern a given job. ********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-

   Edited 5/12/2007 7:11 pm by nikkiwood