I’m building some cabinets for my laundry and home office / playroom. I read norms article and gave the pre-finished maple ply a try. Nice stuff very convenient.
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I’m very serious about dust collection and have 800 CFM to my pm2000 with an over arm blade extractor as well. I also wear a respirator when I’m cutting about 75% of the time because sometimes I just forget about it.
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I have gone through 5 sheets of maple ply and I’m not going to use it again. Sometimes I’ll forget to open a blast gate and last night I used my chop saw and forgot to open the gate. I got a face full dust from this maple ply.
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This is the second time it’s happened to me and it gave me a bloody nose and a bad headache. The finish on the ply is epoxy UV cured.
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Maybe it’s different for other people but I’m done with pre-finished ply.
Replies
Man, sorry to hear about that. I wonder if there's something in the finish that's causing you issues, although sawdust by itself is pretty nasty stuff.
You might still be able to by working with it with a dust mask on. Give you some protection...
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
A respirator is a dust mask
Can you get a Materials Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) on the product from your vendor or the manufacturer? It could offer some information on what exactly is in the stuff and recommended handling.
Also, can you get fresh outdoor air into your shop?
I live in <!----><!----><!---->Minnesota<!----><!---->. it's winter. it's very very cold outside. <!----><!----><!---->
no but seriously I looked at the specs. it's an epoxy based UV oven cured finish.<!----><!---->
I can cut it without suffering if I use my 5 hp cyclone and wear a respirator. It's just those couple of times when I was in a hurry and cut it without any protection at all. <!----><!---->
it makes me nervous to use something that causes that much misery. Once it’s cured I’m sure it’s 100% safe. It’s just the cutting part that sends epoxy dust into the air. Cutting dado’s is also questionable since that is a dustier operation.<!----><!---->
I usually use birch ply and a water based poly for carcass stuff. Works well but finishing 2 coats per side takes time.<!----><!---->
I was wondering if anybody else had similar complaints?<!----><!---->
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I finish the inside of my cabinets with shellac. Dries really fast and doesn't stink once it dries. Varnishes can smell for weeks (or longer) and shellac is pretty much gone in a day or so.
Min-Wax Poly Acrylic Water Based is what I use. easy and fast. 2 hours to sand and recoat can not be beat. Hands down. Virtually no smell.<!----><!----><!---->
I have yet to find a faster/better for finishing cabinet carcasses. Nobody’s going to see it anyways. I'm not worried about the deep rich finish of water based polys. (Ugly)<!----><!---->
If I had a finish booth and a sprayer it would be a different thing. But I’m not sure I would want stinky finish for carcasses. Water based polys are fine for carcasses. <!----><!---->
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Works well but finishing 2 coats per side takes time. <--- from post #4
2 hours to sand and recoat can not be beat. <----from post #6
You just contradicted yourself. I'm so confuuused.
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9 hours to finish all carcass parts. 2 coats per side; 4 coats total.
each coat takes 2 hours to dry. yes it takes some time but without a spray booth your not going to do better than that.
if you can I'd like to know how? sorry about the confusion.
if you can I'd like to know how?
For inside a cabinet with a clear coat use shellac, 1.5 to 2 pound cut, each coat takes 15 minutes. Wait one day (if you're picky) and sand lightly with 400 grit. One more coat, around 1 pound cut, and you're done.
Anyone disagree?
my can of zinsser says 1 hour to recoat and it turns the wood orange?<!----><!----><!---->
isn’t shellac a sanding sealer? I've never seen it as a top coat? I've always though of shellac as an old time finish. Not very durable?<!----><!---->
maybe I'll reconsider but I also remember it being stinky.<!----><!---->
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There are many varieties of shellac, from very clear to dark amber. The "clear" Zinsser from home depot will stay very clear in the long run. It's full of alcohol when you open it (stinky), but that dissipates very quickly - within a day.
A varnish or lacquer inside a cab will off-gas for a long time if the cabinet is not left open.
It's a very durable finish, not just old fashioned. Doesn't hold up to water well but I'm guessing that's not a problem inside a cabinet.
"isn’t shellac a sanding sealer? I've never seen it as a top coat? I've always though of shellac as an old time finish. "
sleepydad,
Shellac is an excellent sealer for a number of purposes. It is also an excellent top coat. It gives wood a beautiful look that no other finish can. Have you ever wondered why it is still around after 3000 years? If shellac was introduced to the market today it would be hailed as a miracle finish it does so many things so well.
Rob
Understanding Wood Finishing; Bob Flexner is kind of my finishing reference/bible. I re-read the chapter on shellac last night.
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I was being a little silly I’ve used shellac on and off for 20 years and to tell you the truth I just don’t like shellac. Different cuts, colors, short shelf life I never feel like I get a consistent finish from one batch to the next. Most importantly I don’t like how it looks on wood. Yes I know it’s hard to believe.
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I would agree it does dry pretty fast and it’s probably the safest finish out there? But I also agree with what Mr. Flexner says in his book. Let shellac stand for 2 hours before sanding. So I don’t really see any time advantages over water based poly. 15 mins is a stretch IMO. The products I have used say 1 hour. Sand a gooey spot one time and you will learn to wait the extra 45 mins to an hour next time.
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Finishing is kind of a religious thing for a lot of people and shellac is a beautiful finish on some pieces. Nitro lacquer is also a very nice finish.
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But I’m still standing by water based poly for carcasses for now. I would never use water based poly on a presentation piece. I believe poly is a little more durable than shellac on most properties.
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Who know whats Chinas using for glue. You know how finicky they r with kids toys.Imagine a lowly pc of plywood..probably Elmers Lead Glue.
No it's a <!----><!----><!----><!----><!---->Columbia<!----><!----><!----> forest product 3/4 48.5 x 96.5 MADE in the <!----><!---->USA<!----><!---->.<!----><!----><!---->
I think it's more of the plywood glue? MSDS is located here.<!----><!---->
http://www.columbiaforestproducts.com/documents/plywood_en.pdf
The rest of their product line I have used; birch, mahogany, red oak, common ash has never given me any problems.
Just this pre-finished maple stuff. I emailed them and they claim there is nothing in the finish that is considered VOC once it’s cured.
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I think the comment made previously, that the finish has sealed in some of the formaldehyde (from the glue) that would otherwise already have blown off, points to the answer. Your symptoms are consistent with formaldehyde exposure.
The solution would be to ensure lots of ventilation while working with the material.
-Steve
You know it could be possible your problem is from something else you have worked with ? Some can with as little exposure as 1 or 2 weeks get nasal cancer from certain species .
I hope you can speak with a specialist to make sure .
regards dusty
Sleepy:"isn’t shellac a sanding sealer? I've never seen it as a top coat? I've always though of shellac as an old time finish. Not very durable?"Be careful what you write or frenchy will be all over you!I urge you to do a Knot search on shellac and read some of frenchy's post. He has convinced a lot of people of shellac's virtues.Hastings
Shellac is cool; I like it. I finished the pull out garbage holder thingy with it last night. Should I tell frenchy that? I think shellac is fit to hold my garbage for me?<!----><!----><!---->
I'm not a big French rubbing kind of guy. Yes a little linseed oil and some 1 1/2# - 2# super blond make a nice finish.
But for quick build up no fuss carcass moisture resistance I'm still sticking with water based poly.<!----><!---->
My first guess, is that the really smooth hard finish, has sealed the sheets really well. And, you are reacting to the off-gassing from the glues in the plywood itself, which has been trapped in the sheets since manufacture.
Normally there are several months for the off-gassing to dissipate before the wood makes it to your shop. This stuff is probably sanded and sealed with out ever leaving the production train.
In post # 7 jigs has thought what I did , are you using China ply ?
If so the glue / plywood itself without the epoxy finish is nasty enough now add the finish fumes .
if it has like 19 plies in 3/4" then its import .
dusty
No it's a <!----><!----><!---->columbia<!----><!----> forest product 3/4 48.5 x 96.5 there is 5 plys I think. clasic core? $60-$65/sheet I think.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->columbia<!----><!----> has a great product line I have used several types of their plywood and I'm really happy with it.<!----><!---->
That homedepot stuff 19 ply's is a mixed bag. large voids; falls apart sometimes. it's only like $25 / sheet what do you expect for $25.<!----><!---->
I'm just not so happy with this pre-finished maple; my nose does not like it.<!----><!---->
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Columbia makes good product , must be the finish .
I've heard of the same symptoms from over-exposure to cyanoacrylate (super glue).
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
A couple of years ago I bought some 3/4 in birch plywood at Lowes. It looked OK but when I started cutting it, I had an alergic reaction to the dust. The core was made of imported wood of some kind. I could not work with it without a dust mask. Have stayed away from it since that time.
Take your lungs very seriously. I just spent the night in the hospital with pneumonia in both lungs. Sawdust has been a growing problem for me, and I work wood for a living. Two weeks ago, I cut up 20 sheets of red alder plywood, and I haven't felt good since.
I may have to look for a new line of work at the age of 43, so if I were you, I wouldn't screw around with something that effected you that much. I've had growing problems for about 5 years now, and it's finally gotten real bad.
Don't mess with your lungs, you only get 2.
Jeff
And just so nobody rants at me, I wear a respirator when cutting. Every tool in the shop is hooked up to one of the three dust collectors in my shop, and I cut up panels with a Festool TS55 hooked up to the CT 33 vac. And, to top it all off, I have a large air cleaner overhead that is never off when I'm in the shop. So, I don't know what I'm doing wrong, other than breathing the air.
I do take it seriously. I agree you want to keep the OEM stuff your body comes with in good order. Replacement part are no good; if they exist at all.
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That’s why I have dedicated 6” pipe to all my machines with blast gates. Over head jet air filter. Usually wear a respirator. I try to keep my shop clean.
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I just screw up from time to time… get in a hurry and don’t take all the precautions. It’s totally my fault and I’m the one suffering for it.
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I’ve never had trouble before but this year I have been cutting a lot of plywood; 20 sheets since December. It has definitely been bothering me. I produced 500+ gallons of sawdust in 2007. Mostly from surfacing 1,500 linear feet of ash, red elm paneling.
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My shop is the garage so now after I get done cutting ply I open the door for a couple of minutes. I don’t know but formaldehyde gas is not caught in the filters?
old shot of my shop(2 years ago) but it gives you an idea.
If your symptoms occur primarily when working with plywood or other sheet goods, then formaldehyde is a likely culprit. In addition to its direct toxicity, it can also be allergenic, and like many allergens, your reaction can get worse with each exposure.
Dust collection and air cleaners won't help with formaldehyde, since they only deal with particulates. A respirator will help, but only if the cartridges are rated for formaldehyde (standard organic vapor cartridges do not protect against formaldehyde). Even so, you can absorb it through your eyes as well as your lungs, so if you're especially sensitive you need gas-proof goggles or a supplied-air respirator.
The best defense against formaldehyde is plenty of ventilation with outside air (unless, of course, you're downwind of a bunch of FEMA trailers).
-Steve
Edited 2/28/2008 12:06 pm ET by saschafer
Don't know what brand you have but here is the cartridge for 3M. Norton and Survivair also have formaldehyde carts.http://www.professionalequipment.com/xq/ASP/ProductID.2652/id.131/subid.432/qx/default.htm
Edited 2/29/2008 9:30 pm by rsaunders
Well, thanks for the info. It's been a very rough week for me. I'm answering this from the WiFi room at the hospital. I've been here for 3 days now. Double pneumonia, and they though I was having a heart attack, so throw in an angiogram for good measure.
Talk to you soon.
Jeff
Jeff ,
I will hold good thoughts for your speedy recovery .
get well we need you
dusty
Dusty
Thanks, my man! It's Sunday afternoon, and I just got home from the hospital after a 3 day visit. Next time, I'd prefer to visit the zoo. It was, perhaps, the wake-up call I needed. I have been suffering from annual (winter time) chronic upper respiratory issues for about 6 years now, and every year has gotten worse and worse. When I work with the hand tools, I'm fine. When the wood muncher's and dust creator's get turned on, I begin to have trouble.
My lung specialist gave me quite the lesson this weekend regarding respiratory protection. Those $30 respirators we buy don't protect us from half of the dangers floating around in a well used cabinet shop with all these crazy urea-formaldehyde glues, etc.... used in plywood. Special care needs to be taken with PROPER filters, and I will be ordering a completely enclosed oxygen supplied hood tomorrow. At 43, it is no time for me to be taking up a new career, especially since I very much enjoy my life as a woodworker.
If I sound like I'm preaching, then good! I just had the scare of my life. When I got to the er, I failed my ekg, and they did an emergency angiogram on me, because my respiratory failure was so bad that they thought it was triggering a heart attack. The good news is, I now now that my arteries are clear and clean as a whistle, amazingly enough.
I share this info to all my buddies here at the Knot's to make sure everybody knows how truly serious it can get. Wednesday, I thought I was a goner!!
Take care, and again, the well wishes are extremely appreciated.
Jeff In my favorite chair, with feet up, taking a break from the shop for the next week or so.
Jeff,
Glad to hear you are feeling better. Take care of yourself and try not to watch too much springer on TV. It's bad for your mental health. :^)
Rob
Rob,
Thanks. No Springer for me. I've got enough reruns of Star Trek and New Yankee Workshop to keep me busy. I need to brush up on my finishing techniques.
<G>
Jeff
Jeff,
I didn't know that they covered finishing on Star Trek.
Rob
Episode 37, Scorching wood and metal with a plasma canon!
Triton Powered Respirator #PRA001http://www.amazon.com/Triton-PRA001-Powered-Respirator/dp/B0000DEZO8/ref=pd_bbs_7?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1204507507&sr=8-7
is this what the doc said to get? I think it's a good idea. I might have to get one. geeky but hey what is the cost of your health?
I think I have figured out what happens to me at least.
So I have this 5HP clear vue cyclone. Doing some back of the envelope calculations I think it can completely turn over all the air in my shop area in 45min to an hour. Maybe faster but I think it depends on what blast gates are open; 4” or 6” is a big difference in flow.
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The downside to having a monster like that is this: it’s like a formaldehyde extractor/circulator. Any nasty stuff in the sawdust gets whipped around and probably off-gasses and get’s circulated back into the room with a vengeance.
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I hate to cut a hole in the house and blow the heated air out but it might be the safest thing to do. Plus making up for the lost air I’ll have to put in a blow hole on the other side so fresh air can come it. I’ll suck all the air out of the shop and being doing physics experiments in a vacuum.
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Hope you feel better Jeff. Thanks for the info.
Yes, something just like that. I'm going to do some investigating. I'll let you know what I come up with.
Jeff
sleepydad,
Be careful what is getting sucked into your shop along with the air that is replacing the air you vent outside. If you have a heater in the area you may start drawing carbon monoxide into the shop. Just a heads up.
Rob
Jethro ,
So glad you are home ( not as glad as you ) one of my pals with a shop has come down with what the lung doc calls occupational asthma , he has a constant short little cough that he has had for years .
Thank you for the preach and warning , you know maybe it's time you and me buy a few Marcous and off some of that old iron we have been so attached to . Use fewer machines and make more shavings instead , I'm not sure I could make a living without power tooling but we could be happy and healthy .
I tell you what , I'll take the old jointer off your hand to make room for the new Marcou storage cabinet .
On a serious note , I cut a few sheets of China ply and felt like I had the flu for a few days after . I can see how the lower cost like $15 per sheet for 3/4" Birch or Maple turns a persons head and the mighty old dollar wins out most every time .
I still have a scrap piece of the Poplar China ply like maybe 18" square sitting around and it is so warped in both directions it is scary . Never never again for this old dog .
Take care and rest up my friend
dusty, maker of hand hewn designer kindling
That's the first chuckle I've had in a week. Thank you for that.
Talk to you soon.
Jeff
Jeff, Make sure to take plenty of time to heal. I'm still suffering the aftereffects of regular pneumonia with Plurisey from the first of Feb. And the flu before that. You had double pneumonia, really bad stuff. My wife got me some sports/vitamin drinks which seem to help with my endurance. I needed something to get my batteries running on full power, but not there yet. At 56 I'd never been that sick before, really makes you think about your career choice and work environment.EarlFurniture...the Art of a FurnitureMaker
Earl,
Thank you for the words of encouragement, and I hope that you feel 100% soon, as well.
Jeff
Jeff,
Sorry to hear about your misfortune.
Hope all is well and your recovery is full. From your posts I am confident that you WON'T take this anything BUT seriously. After all, ya gotta skate with the big boys ya know. Check that nastiness into the boards and give it a spear or three! It's all legal in this case, no penalty minutes!
Maybe your sawmill business, working outside in the fresh air, might provide a better environment than in an enclosed building all the time. I can just see you hip checking them logs onto the mill.
All the Best,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob
Words of encouragement. Thanks a million.
No hip checks anytime soon, though. Part of the joyous weekend was an agiogram, and I've got a hole in my hip where they put the cathoder in. Talk about sore!!
Feels like I got run over by a 6-wheeler.
Jeff
Edited 3/3/2008 11:18 am ET by JeffHeath
Jeff,
Hospital stay isn't fun, but leaving by the front door is a good thing. I know you'll take it easy, nothing like a plug in your femoral artery to make you a little tentative. damhikt The resulting bruise is bound to get you some sympathy, so milk that for all it's worth.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery,
Ray
Ray
You are so correct! And, that damned bruise is growing by the day. If only purpleheart were so purple, and stay this color.
Thanks for the words.
Talk to ya soon.
Jeff
Hey Jeff,
Here's to a speedy recovery as well. I've been there done that, so I know how you feel. At 57 I had the heart-cath deal and wound up with open heart surgery...nasty! Then, I've had double pneumonia 3 times since. Not a lot of fun...but hang in there, it get's better.
Wishing you all the best,Harry
Following the path of least resistance makes rivers and men crooked.
Thanks, much, Harry. I'm feeling quite a bit better already. It's amazing what a month of total rest does to recharge the batteries. I am going stir crazy a bit, though.
Jeff
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