Aloha All~!
I’m looking at the Powermatic 20″ planer and lo and behold it is identical to Grizzly , shop fox , and I suppose others. I know they are all made in Taiwan, but I’m wondering what PM does to justify the extra 400 bucks. I know they used to put American electronics on things like their wide belt sander imports but I have not checked this out lately. The PM rep did not know much, and I suspect that these machines are truly the same unit. Has anyone seen these things side by side?
I’d appreciate any input.
Thanks Tai
Replies
Most of the Taiwanese machines come out of the same factories. The differences between brands are the quality controls that the different companies apply. Grizzley claims that they have an entire staff on the factroy floor to ensure that their machines meet their specs. I'm sure that other major brands employ similar measures.
Remember, just because the cast and sheet metal parts were made in the same place, that doesn't mean that the holes were drilled and tapped, or that the unit was assembled, at the same place. There are a lot of common parts, but that doesn't make them the same machine.
Tom
The real final measure of quality is in flatness, squareness, and things you cannot see like motor quality, bearings, pulleys. And will a machine maintain a setting....
Ive looked at Griz a few times at the store in Springfield MO. Ican honestly say that the differences are in the little things. There is a reason why Griz can sell for what they charge. And a Reason the top end brands cost more.
remember the movie "This is Spinal Tap"? In it there is the scene where the lead guitarist is explaining that their music is louder because their amps "go to 11 instead of 10".
Your $400 difference is kind of like saying it goes to 11.
When equipment is outsourced, the way it is now, brand name does not mean much.
It's about price, customer support, service, quality control and the people you deal with.
If the Dollar stays weak, perhaps we will see more local manufacture, if not, some of the bigger Suppliers, like Delta, will slowly continue to lose business.
Interesting times.
You'll hear vague assertions that the Powermatic must be better in some subtle, invisible way than other brands, because it's more expensive. But the manufacturer's rep, the guy whose job it is to promote the product, can't tell you what the difference is supposed to be.
I say save your $400.
Powermatic used to be great stuff when it was made in McMinnville, TN.
you hit the nail on the head,
the generals rep, well guess who pays for his salary? Since Grizzly doesn't use reps or anyone to market their product they just have low enough prices to attract customers.
For what it's worth, I heard the big difference is that Grizzly does not let the cast iron age before they do the machine work. As a result some internal stresses may show up later in the form of a warpped tables.
I still own 3 Grizzly machines myself. Its hard to justify spending extra money for machines that only see light duty.
Bear
Edited 2/8/2005 5:16 pm ET by Bear
Bear,
I'm not sure how they do things pertaining to castings in the far east, regarding woodworking machines, but know that the correct process is stress relieving, through annealing, by heating the casting to 1325F to 1350F, approximately one hour per inch thickness. What is absolutely critical, is the even distribution of temperature during the gradual cooling process.
A casting which as not been properly stress relieved will always move, following machining, or if it is subjected to dynamic shock as experienced in vibration.
Age is not really applicable, as castings do not "creep". The stresses in the casting will not change the shape over time, until the casting is subjected to changes in dimensions, or vibration.
Generally, the far East do not have a good reputation for how they heat treat castings. These ovens are sophisticated, expensive in intial investment and expensive to operate. I believe most of these castings come from the same factory, so if you have a problem with Grizzly, you will have the same problem with the other suppliers.
There were some other posts in Tool Talk about Grizzly and their "green" castings. Apparently, in the late '80's and early '90's, they had some problems with not aging their castings. Whoever posted regarding this said that they changed their methods and the problems are gone. JHeath has a big, old jointer and when I was talking with him, he said the company that made his had castings sitting out for years before they machined them. When you look at the finish on machines from different companies, the differences are major. Powermatic probably has the shiniest tables, Delta and maybe Jet next, Grizzly is very similar(at least mine are), then Rikon and General are the coarsest ones. The last two have some serious machining marks on them, as well as very sharp edges and points on the castings. I'm sure they are a good product but they could grind off the rough edges before painting them. It doesn't take that long and keeps people from carving their hands and arms up from incidental contact.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
i recently picked up the powermatic 209 20" planer. i've seen the yorkcraft/grizzly/etc clones in catalogs since, but i must say that i really like the one that's down in my shop. i can't say with any certainty that's it's worth the extra $, but it really was primo straight from the crate; i didn't inspected it w/any lasers or micrometers from starrett, just an engineers square, a jointed edge on a board and my eyes. sue me. it's great, it does it's job very well. no complaints, and my little craftsman 6" jointer looks cute next to it, dwarfed and uneasy.
"Grizzly does not let the cast iron age...." Grizzly states specifically that they do "age" their cast iron. I don't have the lit in front of me right now, but I know I've seen them explain this process.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
You could be right.
The biggest difference in quality are things you cannot see such as the following:
1. Ball bearings come in grades 1,3,5,& 7, most quality U.S. manufacturers use grade #3 but off shore usually use grade # 1 or non rated bearings. Housings for bearings are machined and not ground thus resulting in improper fits for the bearings and as a result the bearings journal in the housings and over heating. Shafts are soft instead of being heat treated for proper bearing installation. Snap rings are used to locate bearings instead of ground shoulders to mention only a few of the cost savings. Also bearings are only supplied with shields instead of seals. All these items save cost but are not visable to the purchaser. Alignment of bearing seats is critical and ground versus a machined is very important. Grinding being considerably better and much more costly.
2. Some off the shore motors have windings made from copper/aluminum wire instead of all copper wire. Plus cheap ball bearings or plain sleeve bearings. this results in overheating and short life motors. I experienced this with a 2 bag dust collector I got from off shore.
3. Stress relieving and aging of castings is necessary for stability and freedom from distortion. All these little design and manufacturing changes make the difference between a inexpensive and an expensive machine. Usually you get what you pay for as all the little things are very costly.
From what I have seen these differences are readily noted between say Grizzly and machines made by Powermatic in this country. I have not examined there new off shore stuff(Powermatic)
Edited 2/9/2005 6:59 pm ET by mel
Edited 2/9/2005 7:02 pm ET by mel
I am considering purchasing the new Craftsman hybrid ( one is about $600 and another is about $900) Would you expect these saws to have the higher grade bearings, stress relieved castings, machined housings and all copper wiring that you just mentioned in your last post? And do you have an opinion about the quality of these saws? Thanks.
Frank
Frank, I do not know about the new Sears tools but I can tell you my 25 year old bandsaw used the cheapest brgs possible , The bearing housing was only rough machined and the shaft was ground but but dead soft and the bearing fit was a loose fit vs a press fit so it spun and wore a grove in the shaft and failed. I had a machine shop make me a new shaft, hardened and ground. I then installed Grade #3 bearings with seals and it has worked fine for 20 years now. Basically had the same problem with my 30 year old drill press, since then I have not considered Sears tools, Mostly all Delta, or Powermatic with one jet.
Only bearing I've had fail (moderate hobbyist use) was in a drill press that was made in China. The new Sears "cabinet", actually hybrid saws, are made in China as well, but I wouldn't draw a conclusions based on country of origin. Most can probably build to spec. At the price they're selling for, though, I doubt that the new Sears saws are high quality spec.
Most of my tools are Delta. A couple are Jet. A few months ago I bought a 12" disc / 6" belt Powermatic sander. Nice machine, and there were some minor problems that Powermatic took care of right away. In assembling it I noticed that even the motor was Made in Taiwan, which is not to say that it is a bad motor or that it does not meet specs.
Recently I was in the market for a 12" jointer, and I wanted one with hand wheels. So it came down to General (import line) or Grizzly. I decided to take the latter out for a spin, and see what makes them tick. Overall the jointer is OK-ish. Some things I have found are: the finish on the Grizzly does not come close to any of the other machines. In cleaning off the cosmoline the paint was coming off, I'd have preferred a better paint. The grinding of the beds looks OK, though I have not really checked with any tool. Getting missing parts took several weeks. Lastly, I'd view any assertion by Grizzly on quality or specs with a healthy dose of skepticism. In my experience their marketing literature exaggerates features. But perhaps they all do these days.
Hey Frank,
I purchased the 22124 ($950). Seems to be a good piece of equipment.
Can't say for certain the motor is copper wound. I took the end bell off when I was putting it together and saw copper, but it could be copper coated alum. I don't think so though, as the lifting the motor to install the belt, it was quite heavy.
The bearings I could see were sealed, not shielded.
As far as stress-relieving, not sure there is anyway to tell, as most of that is done with an oversized welder, can't remember what they call it. They hook up a machine with a negative and a positive lead on opposite ends and put the juice to it and heating it to the desired temp. The only thing I did notice was the casting was exceptionally smooth. There were no sharp edges as they were all ground smooth. This is part of the stress-relieving process also. Sharp edges and rough casting lend themselves to becoming stress points. Back in the day when I built racing motors that was one of the most tedious task in the shop. We always made our blocks casting slag and sharp edged free. Those were always the spots where metal failure would start.
The machining process looked to be quite good. Did not notice any snap rings or such. Not quite sure what the "grounding" vs machining means. The only grounding I remember are the valves of an engine. Which was another tedious process done by hand after the machining the valve pockets. All it did was made sure the valves were fully seated, we're talking .0001 clearances here. There's more slop in the best ball bearing than that.
I feel like it will last me for as long as I will be able to do this stuff.
Oh yeah, not that it means anything, but the packaging of this saw was battleship strong. Was enclosed in a metal frame, bolted together. Major damage to the saw would be seen quite easily.
Ok sorry about the 101 on race engines but that's my experience with cast and machining.
Of course I also look at buying new stuff this way. Everyone has had a problem w/a piece of equipment at one time or another, I don't care what brand it is. You just have to be comfortable with what you get or either trade it off for something else. I go by the old "it fits my #ss" saying. At least this week..lol...good luck
Jimmy
as always I wish you enough.
General has higher overhead costs they use reps and others to sell their product and that has a cost that you pay for..
My Grizzly stuff has seen 30,000 bdft. of hardwood like oak and walnut so far and in the roughly 3 years since I bought it the only repair was a belt that cost me $5.00 and took me 10 minutes to buy and install.
Thanks Frenchy... I was hoping to hear from someone who has really put one of these to work.
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