Hello Everyone.
It’s been I while since I’ve checked into the site, good to see there’s still some folks out there willing to give some good advise cause I need some. Now I’m not normally a very indecisive kind of guy but I have come to an important crossroads in the path of any hobbiest woodworker, cabinet saw time!! This brings both feelings of joy (I’ve finally saved enough cash to go out and buy the thing without affecting family finances) and feelings of dread (don’t want to pick the wrong saw). I’ve basically narrowed the field down between the left tilting Delta unisaw X5 and the Powermatic 66. After reading many reviews of both machines my conundrum is this: Which has the better fence? (They look almost identical) and are “heavy trunions” (sounds like something my father would have said in his thick Scottish accent) actually worth the roughly 500 dollar difference? I don’t mind spending more if the Powermatic is genuinely a better machine, but I’d hate to find out after the fact that the Biesmeyer was the better fence and I’d paid more for less. If anyone out the could toss this anxious woodworker a few tidbits of wisdom it would be much appreciated. Thanks a lot and keep makin shavins everybody.
Best Regards,
Brian
Replies
They are both fine saws, if price is not a problem go with Powermatic.The unisaw usually comes with either a Beismier or the Unifence. I prefer the Beismier myself.I don't recall what the fence is called on the Powermatic, whatever it is an excellent fence too.All of the Delta and Powermatics I have used are at least 25 years old. I am not sure if the older Deltas were called unisaw or just Delta cabinet saws.
mike
Mine is kind of an apple/oranges comparison, but I will give you the story anyway.
I had a Unisaw for 20 some years. The bearings were starting to go, I needed a mobile base, and for reasons I won't go into here, it was underpowered (1 1/2 hp). I had equipped it with an Excalibur fence.
I toted up the costs of fixing the bearings, installing a 3 hp motor, and buying a mobile base -- and figured that I might as well spring for a Powermatic 66, since I had a buyer for the Unisaw at $1000 (which included a bunch of jigs I had built over the years).
Now that I have run the 66 for a couple of years, I would say I cannot tell any difference between the two from an operational point of view. Also, I was irritated that the fit and finish on the 66 left something to be desired -- e.g. I spent hours filing away on one of the mitre slots to alleviate sticking of the mitre gage.
The 66 comes equipped with an Accufence, which is a Biesmeyer clone. It does have the advantage (over the Bies) of being able to easily replace the facing strips as they wear. However, this fence pales in comparison to the Excalibur, and I have been seriously thinking about replacing it.
The problem here is that I am comparing a Unisaw that was 25 years old with a new Powermatic, and I just can't say if the the new Unisaws are built at the same quality level.
Both are good saws, and I think you would be happy with either one. If I were in your shoes, I think I would spring for the Unisaw. I would hold the money you save, and either buy an Excalibur fence system (if you end up disliking the Bies, as I do), or spend the extra $$ on some other tool.
When I started out woodoworking many years ago I was faced with a similar situation. I could get the Delta from a friend at wholesale but I opted for the PM as it was the only left tilt besides the Craftsman. After spending many years woodworking and doing machine repairs I would do it differently with todays options. Both saws are more alike than different except for the price. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The fences are close enough to say they are the same. If you are a lousy woodworker you will still be no matter which one you choose. Plus you have other options like Grizzly which are affordably priced. I know someone is going to say "Get a General!" Still more alike the choices than different. Personally I don't agree with the notion..."I just want to buy the perfect saw once". I've traded up and down with equipment over the years based upon needs and space. Personally I'd be looking at sliders like the Rojek which is the starting line up. Sliders are a whole league above the cabinet saw.
I have both in my shop, well actually the powermatic is the 72 model, which uses 12 to 14" blades. They are both fine saws which should last longer than you do. That is not to say you will never have to replace belts or bearings, but you won't be going wrong with either choice.
However if you can save $500 by going with one, choose it and take the saved money, and buy a Makita 1806 B power-plane, and you will be happy that you did.
I own 3 right tilt Unisaws and a PM66. The PM66 has not been used in 4 years, just sits in the corner. I prefer the RT Unisaw with a Unifence. If you want a left tilt machine, purchase a used PM66. Don't waste your money on a new saw.
DJK
Seems like everyone has an opinion on this one -- not sure mine is any better than any of the others, but here goes:
I've used a very recent unisaw, and own a recent PM66. My experience suggests both will do a fine job -- limited vibration, easy to set up and make absolutely true, etc.
The unisaw has more "convenience" features -- think handy slot to hold your mitre gauge, etc. But I found it to have a more "consumer" feel -- especially the blade guard, which seems a bit weak, considering the price of the saw.
The powermatic, on the other hand, has fewer such convenience features, but does boast a very commercial feel -- like a very heavy-duty metal blade guard.
I got the 3hp powermatic for only about $150 more than the unisaw (gold box deal at amazon -- can you believe it?), so it wasn't much of a decision for me. For $500 difference...well, you have to make the call...
cbr
Brian,
We have both Powermatics and Deltas at school, as well as Holz-Her panel saws (both horizontal and vertical), a Mini-Max 12-inch, and new this year, three Laguna tablesaws.
The Delta and PM saws are fine machines, and have withstood the abuse heaped upon them by thousands of college-level woodworking students over the years. Given the budget, I'd look seriously at the Laguna with its European-style riving knife/splitter that raises, lowers and tilts with the blade. It also features a replaceable phenolic throat plate that is much larger, more stable, and flatter than the ones on the Delta or PM. It has a heavy and rigid Biesemeier-style fence that's quite user-friendly.
The on and off switches incorporate a unique safety feature that takes a bit of getting used to; they are housed in what looks like a small waterproof box; open the box to gain access to the switches, bump the box cover with your knee and it shuts off the saw, much like the larger stop-sign-shaped after market safety switches you've likely seen.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
"and new this year, three Laguna tablesaws."
so you like them... do they have the new style slider? any other thoughts on them ? i have been on the "fence" for a laguna for over a year now. i used to run holzma, gibben, altendorf and oliver saws in other shops so i have a hard time finding quality that i can afford for the "garage shop"
-ian
Dude,
We did not opt for sliders on the new Laguna tablesaws - as I mentioned in an earlier post, we have Holz-Her vertical and horizontal panel saws that fill that need.
The new Lagunas are solid, comfortable, and quiet, and I'm enamored of their throat plates and riving knives. I may have additional comments as time passes, but so far, I have no significant negatives to report.
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
I've used both and both are good and I don't think you'd go wrong with either. Planning on a new saw in the spring and have been looking around and like the General 350/650 better than either. Seems better constructed and the table/wings have been dead even on every example I've seen although the latest examples I've seen of PM and Delta have been quite good. I think the Taiwan built machines have improved greatly over the last 20 years and are worth considering. The last Unisaw and 66 I looked at didn't even have "Made In USA" stickers on them.
I bought a PM66 last December. My deciding factors were that it was USA made, and the Uni's weren't. Also, the store had a 15% off sale, which made the prices comparable. All in all, buying American is a choice we might not have for much longer if we are not careful.
The fence is a Bise clone. Slightly heavier than the original, but with replacable faces. Another feature I like is the 1/2 setting on the lock lever, which lets you set distances quicker.
The different trunion design makes cranking easier. The polished top is a mixed blessing: looks good now, but how will it look in 5 years of Houston humidity?
The finish was perfect, except for the decal stripe.
I don't think you will go wrong either way, but...
Dan
Buy Delta for the Unifence - still the best fence on the market. Otherwise, there is not much difference.
Never had the good fortune to work on a Powermatic, but I have worked on an assortment of Deltas -- right and left tilt, with Bies and Unifence. The tool itselft didn't make me a better woodworker, but I became better once I understood the nuances of each saw. I wouldn't hesitate to equip my own shop with a Delta.
Consider what that additional $500 might do for you...a good blade guard and riving knife system, link belts to replace the factory belt, new rip and cross-cut blades, a dado set, a sliding table, dedicated dust collection for the table saw, some zero-clearance throat plates to replace the stock throat plate, material to build some cross-cut sleds or jigs for novelty cuts (tapers, miters, etc.), an outfeed table, and so forth...
Good luck and good skill! I believe either choice will represent a good decision.
tony b.
Dear Brian,
I'm sure that there are many good opinons expressed already, so I will try to be brief. I own a 5 hp PM66 that I bought from amazon three or four years ago. I use it comercially and it is outstanding. I have also had the good fortune of having a Uni join my shop. The two saws are back to back in that they are each others outfeed table. Hands down the PM is the better saw. Now I would like to suggest that you check out the " Bridgewood" machines at Wilkemachinery.com. If I had to do it again I would get the Bridgewood for the following reasons:
1. It is virtually the same as a PM66.
2. Substantial $ savings.
3. Bridgewood sets up and test runs them prior to delivery. That means no casmoline clean up.
The bottom line is that they are all good saws.
John
Brian -
I agonized over which saw to buy when I upgraded from my old Craftsman a coupla years ago. I opted for the Unisaw for 1)budget and 2)local dealer I could easily refer to.
When I installed the cast iron wings I had to resort to clamps to force the table and wing into the same plane. Not much of a warp in the wing but enough to be somewhat aggrevating. I found, with what limited measurement tools I had that the main table was slightly warped.
I was kinda bummed.
But ...
Since setting it up and using it, none of the grievances have caused any problems.
The point?
We're working with wood. A material that's inherently imprecise since it can change dimensions overnight. A few thou out here and there in a table saw top and wings doesn't, in my mind have a huge effect on the outcome of the project. That's from a hobbiest, understand. Pro's may well take exception to that.
All that said, if you can afford the PM, great. But like many others have suggested, if you have yet to fully outfit your shop, the savings on the Unisaw would go pretty far towards acquisition of good blades, etc.
I would also second the suggestion to look closely at other even less expensive options such as Grizzley. My neighbor is a professional cabinet maker and does pretty nice work. He's got a Grizz in his shop. Of course, it's nice to have the big PM66 sitting there when woodworking buddies show up! (grin).
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Top warped? Isn't that something covered under warrantee? I was fortunate to have my Grizzly dead flat including wings, but I would have been hollering for someone to fix it if it had not been flat. I would go back to your local dealer and see about getting it taken care of. That thing cost way too much to accept a bad top. Good luck.
Bones -
I would agree 'cept ....
Flat and warped are to some extent relative terms. Given that all I had in the way of a straight edge was a 3' aluminum level which is far from a precision straight edge, and I'm "measuring" something in the order of a few thou, .... And yes, the dealer I bought the saw from would have replaced it or taken it back if I wanted to go with the PM or another saw but .... I faced the spector or dissassembling a completely assembled machine and recrating it.....
I've built all the base cabinets for our house thus far and they've turned out fine with that saw.
I'm not suggesting anyone settle for inferior merchandise. Only trying to put things in perspective. In fact, I came here and whined about the situation and several forum members reminded me I probably wouldn't be building Mars rovers with the thing and the descrepancies I measured with the limited measuring devices I had were well within so-called 'Industry Standards'. The only reason I had to suspect anything was out of the ordinary was when I went to put on the wings. The left wing didn't line up front to back. The fact that someone here described how to use clamps to get the edges to align suggests to me that it's not totally unheard of for this to be the case.
If I had it to do all over again I'd buy the General (CN version) but for other reasons.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
.015" is the general accepted tolerance for a flat saw top. I spent a fair amount of years as a tech and had a few people try to insist a saw was unacceptable as it was .005" off. I had documentation from a few manufacturers to shut them up.
Since you posed the question, I just wondered what is considered out of tolerance for flateness with Grizzly (my saw). Here Is what I got. Curious what other brands consider flat?
Thank you for your email dated October 26, 2004.
Our allowable tolerance for our table saw tops are .006. This is what we would tell our customer if they had any questions about it.
If we may be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us. You are a valued customer and we look forward to hearing from you soon.
Sincerely,
Customer Service
Grizzly Industrial, Inc.
Powermatic used .015" for the table saw top and the old Oliver used .010" for the 16" jointer table surface flatness. Each type of machine has different standard requirements and wood tools are much lower than metal working tools.
Hello Brian,
I am typing this in my best scottish accent (with a Texan drawl of course). I have a Unisaw with the Unifence, and love it. I would rather have the PM66 as it is a heavier saw, bigger trunnions, beveled gears on the tilt/lift mechanism, etc. None the less my saw holds its settings perfectly. The saw does flex and deflect under certian conditions that probably never come into play in the actual running of the machine. As far as fences go. The PM comes with a Beis clone that is shurely just as good as the real one. However, I urge you to consider the Unifence. I think that it is the best fence for a custom cabinetry/ furniture shop in a non production setting. The adjustments are easier than those on a Beis, and the fence is VERY versitale. The fence can be set to be 4" high or 3/8" high. I usually leave it in the low profile position as it allows a lot more room for fingers and hand when ripping narrow stock. It also dosent obscure the cut line when ripping narrow stuff. The fence can be slid back so the it is only 16" or what ever long for safer cross cutting with a miter gauge. If I had a large operation with several employees who didn't treat the machine with some amount of consideration I would use beis fences because they are bombproof. Dropping a beis fence is unlikely to do more than chip the concrete floor; dropping a Unifence could damage the fence.
So my perfect saw is a PM66 with a Unifence. You can order a PM66 with no fence or with a Beis if you want, then get a Unifence for it. The cost is about the same.
Enjoy your shopping,
Mike
My two cents.
In use I doubt you'll see much difference between the two saws in terms of quality of cut - which is, after all, what we're talking about with a table saw. The other quality issue is how well the saw will last over time. Frankly, I doubt any hobbiest woodworker will wear out either of these saws.
Fences. I like the Unifence. I could type a long justification but the truth is I like it because it's what I have and what I'm used to. I like the ability to pull the fence back for cross cuts, but it's easy enough to clamp a block on with a Bies type fence.
A snap in spreader is available from Delta and it works a lot better (for me) than the standard splitter http://media.ptg-online.com/media/dm/OwnersManuals/20030925085042_En1348753-10-27-97.pdf
Grizzly vs. Delta vs. PM vs. a high end contractor saw. You can make good clean cuts with any of them. More power and better dust collection are the main reasons to go to a cabinet saw. Choosing between these three (or some others) comes down to nit-picking and pride of ownership. If you own this saw for 10 years or 20 years or a lifetime there is something to be said for feeling good about it every time you use it. Some get that feeling from knowing how much money they saved, others from the feeling of having bought a tool they dreamed about owning.
Stop agonizing. As long as you can afford it, buy the saw that will make you happy and get busy making saw dust.
Which color do you like better? :-)
Good luck on whatever you decide.
--Rob
I love it!! Colour is my favorite subject. I get tired of grey Delta stuff. Parrot poop yelloy (PM) is a little more interesting. I nice blue like some of the Euro machines is much better. Do the Itallians make saws?
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
The Italians make great saws....Minimax. In white!
Also Paolini but that's an industrial grade saw. European stuff is so far ahead of stuff made on this continent (Canada included). Even the Czechoslovakian stuff is looking better than the Domestic...Rojek! Check out the Kufo saws as well from China!
Edited 10/28/2004 8:59 am ET by rick3ddd
Rick,
I Searched for Paolini several way and could not find any thing.
Just curious,
Mike
please excuse my spelling.
EDITED
Ah Hah. I tried google and found them. Yea, I agree. I do believe a 300-32 would look pretty good in my shop.
Edited 10/28/2004 11:55 pm ET by mike
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