Replies

1. 
   Windsorlvr | Jul 25, 2003 01:50am | #1

   Phil- This is really a personal choice. It would be easy for me if I felt I had an choice. If I was building furniture for leasuire and hobby I would no dought use mostly hand tools. I got a good taste of it last year building a Windsor chair with hand tools only and absolutely loved it. The best thing was the sound of sharp steel slicing through the wood effertlessly, and not having to hear the dust collector, compressor, planer and all other noise makers.

   I would still have a tablesaw and I think a small jointer. Just think of all the extra shop space you'll have. Anyway, just my opinion. Whatever you choose, have fun, be creative.

   John E. Nanasy
1. 
   sailalex | Jul 26, 2003 05:08pm | #12

   I, like you , have admired the windsor chair and would consider it a "next" project. Where did you get started with windsor chairs, was it from a book, a class, or what? Can you give me your suggestion as the best place to start? Thanks!

1. 
   Windsorlvr | Jul 29, 2003 01:03am | #13

   Sailalex- It's always nice to run into another Windsor chair admirer.

   I haven't been at this long, so I'm by no means a veteran chairmaker.

   I got started by taking a class with Mike Dunbar, the authority on Windsor chairmaking. He's got a school called http://www.thewindsorinstitute.com The school is in Hampton, New Hampshire. When I took the class 2 summers ago (I think) it was $650.00. $650.00 very well spent. I think it's still the same price. He and his staff are great people.

   Technically I guess you could learn on your own from a book. But you will absorb years of knowledge, shortcuts and techniques from taking the class. I figured it was the best way to go. It is a very unique part of woodworking. If you've never done it, nothing you've done in the past will prepare you for it. By that I mean techniques and stuff. Of course it helps alot by having experience as a woodworker, and especially experience with handtools. You won't use power tools during the week you're there. Any I'd highly reccomend it. Let me know if I can ramble on any more about the subject. Have fun.John E. Nanasy

1. 
   sailalex | Jul 29, 2003 02:54pm | #15

   Thanks John. I realize I have a couple of Dunbar's books. I live in S.C. so a trip to New Hampshire is a haul although our local Woodcrafters , I think, has been trying to get a group together  for Dunbar. I will double check. I am in the middle of a 21' boat project now but am thinking ahead. Thanks again for your comments.

    Alex Warren

2. 
   BG | Jul 25, 2003 02:33am | #2

   Datapip,

   It's an interesing question you raise and the answer is probably quite unique to each one of us.  Personally, I like to do things by hand but don't have the skills or time to use only hand tools.  So while I can and do flatten rough lumber on the workbench, I use the planner for thickness and parallel.  I like cutting dovetails by hand and have practiced to be okay...but trying to use a hand saw to cut veneer is a whole different skill level.

   Buying the cabinet saw made a big difference..several tools I thought I needed were not as important with the TS.  The workbench was critical also. I think I need a nice router table and eventually a band saw.  I have considerable space constraints so it really a choice between the two not both.  Right now I'm making a shaker style end table from a single piece of 10/4 cherry 11" wide and about 8' long....the TS, router, workbench and hand tools will do it all...good luck

3. 
   DavidP52 | Jul 25, 2003 02:59am | #3

   I haven't found that machines eliminate the need for hand tools. I need both. So why not start with hand and if you can hack that and skip the machines. Machines merely save time and wear on your body.

4. 
   RANGERP75R | Jul 25, 2003 03:27am | #4

   Phil

      I started with hand tools an added the power as I found the need. You will know when that time comes. You will always have the need for certain hand tools no matter how many power tools you have. My current tools started showing up a little over 30 years ago. A newbie comes through the door every so often an finds it's niche among the old veteran "stand-bys" as the need for it arises.

      As I stated, your choice of what you build an personal style will inform you of what tool you need an when...

   sarge..jt

1. 
   philpolish | Jul 25, 2003 01:03pm | #5

   Thanks a lot for all your comments . The main reason I asked the original question is that I have a birthday coming up and I must buy another tool as you do.But the question is which one.

    As I mentioned before I have a little table saw,  router,jointing  plane and a few hand tools. I had my eye on a sliding compound mitre with about a 300mm cutting width.But after buying my table saw with regret would my money be  better of going on other tools or tool?. I know the mitre saw can do a few things that I will need but has anybody got any thoughts on any other tools that I should get first and would be more useful in my situation of lack of tools.

   Thanks in advance

   Off on me hols tomorow so wont be here for a while.

1. 
   BG | Jul 25, 2003 01:41pm | #6

   datapip,

   For me, the CMS was the key tool to go into disuse with the buying of the TS.  I just found the TS more accurate and easier than the CMS most of the time.

   Other tools you might want to consider are a function of how much you want to spend. However, one thought is a good jig saw or an Incra for the table top saw but becareful that it fits the miter slot.  On the more expensive end is the planer/thicknesser...and the drill press.

2. 
   MarkRoderick | Jul 25, 2003 02:45pm | #7

   Whether you end up using mostly hand tools or mostly machines, there is one machine you're going to use frequently, and that's the table saw. So if I were you, I'd sell the "little tablesaw" you've mentioned and buy at least a good contractor's saw for around $700. You won't be sorry no matter which direction you go after that.

3. 
   Len | Jul 25, 2003 07:01pm | #9

   I would upgrade the TS and get yourself a good blade to go with it. You'll find that the rest will fall into place. You can build a cross cutting sled for the TS.

   I use hand tools and power tools. It really depends on my mood. I prefer hand but sometimes time doesn't allow for that.

   Good luck,

   Len

4. 
   fdampier5 | Aug 04, 2003 06:35pm | #17

   The first time I began to think I'd be able to do woodwoprking is when I used a CMS.  Mine is super accurite and even now years later has never given me a moments problem.. (although I went better and bought the sliding compound version which is a whole 'nuther level better)

     I see these guys with their sleds, jigs, and fixtures attempt to make a simple cut at 54.4 degrees on a table saw and laugh.  When I do it on the SCMS it's dead nuts accurite and super fast..

    I bought a contractors saw and had a miserable time with it and replaced it with a 12 inch cabinet saw  It's been over a year and I have yet to wire it up and use it..

        Beware of the fixture/ jig thing.. there is a temptation to make fixtures to make one tool do what another tool should have done all along..   You waste time and material plus few of us are tool and die men so our work  tends to have a little charcter in it.. something you can live with when building furniture or nix nacks but dangerous when making tooling..

         Hand tools are a luxuary..  if you value your time at all there is too much time used in learning the skill involved..

     No-one is an expert when they pick up a tool.. it takes years of practice to become proficent and many decades to become an expert..   Hand tools are simply a way for those who have been doing this for decades to make us feel inadiquit. While there are rare occasions when a hand tool is the best tool,  I can think of very few..

1. 
   EdHarrison | Aug 04, 2003 08:34pm | #18

   > Hand tools are a luxuary..  if you value your time at all there is too much time used in learning the skill involved.<

   That's too funny, Frenchy! I won't argue with you but I will say I bet you wouldn't be saying that If you didn't have a nuclear power plant backing you up.

   I will say that if hand tools are a luxury, they are also a solid addiction. Once you get addicted, there is little hope other than collecting 'em all!

   Ed

1. 
   fdampier5 | Aug 05, 2003 12:17am | #19

   While Minnesota has a couple of nuclear power plants most of our electricity is generated by good old fashioned acid rain producing coal fired plants.. (I think we now get about 2% of our energy from renewable resouces....)..

        How I choose to use my allotment of electricity really should be my affair..  while I could use it to heat up the heating pads that I would need to ease the ache in my ancient muscles instead I choose to waste it foolishly  building a home for my family to live in..

      Aw this hobby has a big tent.. there is room for those ludites who choose to use muscles and the rest of us intelligent individuals <G>   

2. 
   Robbie | Aug 05, 2003 02:09am | #20

   Datapip:

   I am too old to shop for myself at ToysRUS. 

   That is why I shop at Tool Crib, Woodcraft, Berlands, Garrett Wade, International Tool, etc., etc.  

   I love working wood by hand, but I really love everything about my toys, er, I mean tools.

5. 
   Napie | Jul 25, 2003 02:59pm | #8

   I started with nothing but hand tools also, (well, a drill motor and a M77 Skill saw too).  It was the best way to learn.  As to preping stock with hand planes, well it's OK, but I could do laundry on a washboard too.........  But, if you are looking at "smaller" work for personal use, I'd really look hard at some of the combination machines.  They are slower due to change over and you really must be organized, but they are a lot of bang for the buck.  Add a bandsaw and you have a pretty complete shop.

6. 
   stancalow | Jul 25, 2003 10:45pm | #10

   datapip

   I am a recreational woodworker, not too far along the path.  My greatest satisfaction and learning in this hobby has been using hand tools.  However, I find that I don't have the time to do it that way.  I figure I have about 3-4 hours per week to spend in the shop, and if I was planing and sawing by hand, I would never get any project completed.  For example, a jointer and planer opened up a whole new world for me by freeing up those tedious tasks.  I would love to have the time to do everything by hand, but realistically I need to use power tools to move things along.    Ideally, you should consider what your next project is going to be, and then consider what tool, power or hand, would help you accomplish that better, faster, or easier.  

   That being said, I find that my tool purchases have been based on what looks good in a catalog, what I find at a garage sale, or what looks like a good deal at the store.  The most expensive tool is not always the best for your situation. 

   When in doubt, buy clamps. 

7. 
   Alan | Jul 26, 2003 02:50am | #11

   Phil,

   I started out as a disciple of Norm, worshiping at the holy wall outlet.  I had a whole gara...er...shop full of the usual array of power tools.  It was odd though, I didn't enjoy wood working very much.

   Changes in my life and circumstances mandated that I get rid off all those forked-tailed howlers and begin using hand tools.  Odder still, the more hand tools I used the more I enjoyed wood working.

   I now own only one "shop" power tool--an old Sears table-top band saw; I also have an electric drill, with a tail, and a router that I don't know where it is.  I use the band saw infrequently, usually for repetitive or long rip cuts.  I do almost everything with hand tools, including dimensioning stock, and I wouldn't go back to power tools for anything.

   Hand tools take both practice and patience, and many feel too much of each for them to enjoy using hand tools. Hand tools also require you to acquire other skills, such as sharpening, tuning up planes, and so forth.  But for me the rewards far outweigh any disadvantages.  I thoroughly enjoy learning new skills; and because I don't work wood for a living, the extra time is of no consequence.

   Wood working with hand tools is a lot quieter and safer than using power tools.  It's also a great deal cheaper.  For the price of a quality cabinet saw you can obtain virtually every hand tool you need, if you shop at flea markets, swap meets and garage sales.

   For me it's no contest:  I take greater satisfaction in my work and thoroughly enjoy doing it--even if I don't finish projects as quickly as I could if I returned to those satanic, screaming electron burners.

   Alan

1. 
   philpolish | Aug 02, 2003 01:46pm | #16

   Thanks for your reply Alan

   I have just got back from the hols. I have been thinking hard of what to buy. I have come to the same conclusion as yourself much more enjoyable by hand.

   I have to make some money with my work but not to the point where I dont enjoy it . I have attended a cabinet making course here in the UK some while back and there I did actually see what you could do by hand.

   After a week tuning a few tools and thickenessing stock by hand I must admit it was hard work but very enjoyable. I only have a small workspace also so I will just have to make smaller items and find ways around problems that will arise.I am sure it will be more fun than having every tool going and just taking hours setting them all up.

   Must go and do a bit more

   Kind regards Phil

8. 
   Manchild | Jul 29, 2003 02:36am | #14

   You need both to have a full woodworking knowledge. They do compliment each other. I see it like having a classical education(which I don't have). I work with a couple of construction guys that do just fine with what they have, but they have gaping holes in there woodworking/ construction experience. The one young one goes right for the biggest, loudest, fastest. The older one goes for hurry, hurry, hurry. Today the 67 year old one almost fell of the ladder because he was in such a hurry.