Replies

1. 
   BG | Apr 03, 2003 02:36pm | #1

   Pelham,

   Early this week (I think) someone posted a link to a study that was done with various smoothing planes on some highly configured hard woods.  I have been looking for the last hour trying to find the thread and link with no luck. I found this article fascinating and while it dosent answer your question directly, it certainly add a lot of clarity to the angle issue and higher quality planes.

   The study included a $2700 plane the LN, Vertias and a few others.  On the highly configured wood..a 60 degree appeared to make a significant difference...the Vertias was as good as the LN...the 2700 dollar baby really distinguished itself in its response to adjustments.

   Therefore, it would seem that the answer to your question is the wood kinda dictates the best angle...depending on what your doing.  Also, the higher quality planes can be tuned more finely..?

   Hope I haven't misinterrupted the study....  

1. 
   PeteMoss | Apr 03, 2003 02:48pm | #2

   I believe this is the article you were talking about.

   http://www.traditionaltools.com/highangle.htm

1. 
   BG | Apr 03, 2003 03:20pm | #3

   pete,

   thanks

2. 
   PelhamPete | Apr 03, 2003 05:50pm | #4

   Hi BG,

   So it sounds as though one can easily just plunk down some bucks and purchase an extra blade, put a 5 degree back bevel on it, and voila- one has the equivalent of their plane with a + 5 degree increased frog angle (which is pretty much what I had suspected).  Does anyone see a problem with this conclusion? .  I can see that the cutting edge is marginally and perhaps inperceptibly weaker due to less blade material backing up the bevel.  But sure beats the heck out of purchasing a new high angle frog, disassembling the plane and installing it, putting it all back together, etc., eh?! (actually I think that among the metal plane makers- only LN offers a replacement frog with a different angle for their planes, though perhaps there are others?),

   I'm still wondering about the second question; if there is a problem with putting a steeper angle on the bevel e.g., frog angle minus, say, 5 degrees.  It does still seem as though the resultant cutting edge would be substantially stronger with no associated reduction/change in cutting performance (on bench planes, NOT block planes!).

   -Peter T.

1. 
   BG | Apr 03, 2003 06:17pm | #5

   Pete,

   I'm not sure I understand your question....not that i could answer it anyhow (g).  But assuming your boosting the angle to 60 degrees..as the article issustrated...then smoothing would be enhanced...and strength of blade qwold be less of an issue..fine curls and all.  However, I suspect that would not be a what you wold do with a scrub plane balde?...we gotta wait for more research?

   PS. i think I know what your saying now...can you go the other way with the angle? ie 35 degree?...I don't have any idea on that side....low angle planes confuse me..

   Edited 4/3/2003 11:20:22 AM ET by BG

1. 
   PelhamPete | Apr 03, 2003 10:19pm | #6

   Hi BG,

   Ugh- bigtime confusions!

   <<I'm not sure I understand your question....not that i could answer it anyhow (g).  But assuming your boosting the angle to 60 degrees..as the article issustrated...>>

   "The article"; I am assuming that you are talking about that comparison of all those planes that someone gave us the hyperlink to?!  I don't know what the 60 degrees is that you are talking about.  The hot-performer in that comparison was the $ 2700.00 dollar plane, but its angle was 47.5 degrees.  I guess that I am not sure how/why this 60 degree thing came up.  What are you referring to?  I was talking about simply putting a 5 degree back bevel on a regular 45 degree bench plane's frog so that in effect it would (pressumably) behave/perform like a 50 degree plane.

   <<then smoothing would be enhanced...and strength of blade qwold be less of an issue..fine curls and all.  However, I suspect that would not be a what you wold do with a scrub plane balde?...we gotta wait for more research? >>

   "Scrub Plane"???  Who said anything about scrub planes?  I was wondering about regular ol' bench planes (smoothers to be exact, though I didn't refer to them in particular)

   <<PS. i think I know what your saying now...can you go the other way with the angle? ie 35 degree?...I don't have any idea on that side....low angle planes confuse me..>>

   Low angle planes?  No- I was referring to regular ol' bench planes ... you know- with the bevel down, 45 degree frogs, etc. , not low-angle bevel-up planes.

   I was either REALLY imprecise about the way I phrased my questions, or perhaps ???  Who knows.

   -Peter T.

1. 
   BG | Apr 04, 2003 02:06pm | #8

   "Pete,

   In the article....in the discussion section, he talks about the 15 degree back bevel he put on the 4.5 Lee Valley 45 degree plane...ergo the 60 degrees...and he said it performed almost as well as the Thomas plane.....relative to smoothing highly configured pain in the neck hardwoods.

   So I was taking that bit of new found knowledge and sharing it with you...implying that what you are thinking of doing would appear to have a positive impact on smoothing.  I was also trying to think through your question about blade support and strength...thinking only thin shaving would be taken while smoothing, strength not as big an issue as it might be if you were using the plane as a scrub plane. 

   My mind works very funny until a full pot of coffee has been consumed..sorry for adding to the confusion...lol

2. 
   PelhamPete | Apr 05, 2003 07:45am | #9

   Hi BG,

   I hear ya about the coffee ... I don't speak (or type) to anyone until after a quart of the stuff!

   And then there is what it does for one's regularity! :-)

   -Pete

2. 
   mallard10 | Apr 04, 2003 03:19am | #7

   Hi Pete If your talking about putting a 40 degree angle on the iron I don't think it would cut very easy. A lower angle cuts the wood easier but the edge breaks easier. The 25 degree angle is a bit of a compromise between the two extremes. I like to put a 30 micro bevel on my smoothers and jointers. Hope this helps   Jerry

1. 
   PelhamPete | Apr 05, 2003 08:20am | #10

   Hi Jerry,

   <<If your talking about putting a 40 degree angle on the iron I don't think it would cut very easy.>>

   What is the difference in terms of the cutting ability between a 25 degree iron mounted bevel down on a 45 degree frog and a 45 degree bevel angle on an iron as far as the wood is concerned? (yes, I know that a plane iron resting on its back on a board doesn't project into a flat surface of the wood, but that is, I think, besides the point; we could use paring as the model)  It seems as though they both present a 45 degree bevel to the wood fiber?!

   I guess that is at the heart of my question- does the wood "know" the difference between a bench plane iron (i.e., bevel down!) with a 25 degree bevel and a bench plane iron with a 35 degree bevel IF they are both on a 45 degree frog?  As counter-intuitive as it might seem; the effective angle seems to be the same in both instances; 45 degrees.   They should both cut the same?!  The only difference that I can see is that the 35 degree edge (bevel down!) is much stiffer and heartier ... and stiffer/heartier, is a good thing! lol 

   But for some reason I never hear this recommended and there must be a reason.  It can't be that the wood somehow knows, can it?  I don't see how.

   <<A lower angle cuts the wood easier but the edge breaks easier. The 25 degree angle is a bit of a compromise between the two extremes. I like to put a 30 micro bevel on my smoothers and jointers. >>

   Nothing like increasing the angle and a kiss or two on some fine sharpening medium and voila: scary sharp!  I use abrasive sheets mounted on glass mounted on mdf and it is kind of neat; you get it close (25 degree stopping at, say, 320 grit), and then 10 or so strokes with 1500 or 2000 grit at a slightly increased angle and you have a wonderfully sharp edge.  Very cool.

   -Peter T.

1. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Apr 05, 2003 01:35pm | #11

   Hi Pete,

   Most you can hone to is approximately 40 degrees.  The blade is bedded at 45 degrees & you need room to allow the wood to spring back after planing (slightly compressed as it's cut), as well as the change in angle of attack caused by flexing of the blade due to tightening of the cap iron screw.

   Re:  the difference between 28 and 30 degrees, I think it has to do with the relative 'sharpness' of the edge.  ie:  a more acute angle of grind lifts the wood from the surface easier than a 'fatter' ground edge, but at the expense of blade durability.  Or it could have something to do with edge harmonics.  Anyway, more of a science than of practical significance to me.

   What I do know is that I grind the primary bevel at approx 25 degrees and then set the hone angle by pressing the ground bevel hard against the stone and raising the end of the blade slightly.  If the edge is too fragile, I rehone at a slightly steeper honing angle until the edge lasts.

   Cheers,

   eddie

   ps:  re the 60 degrees bedding angle, one of the best planes that I have has a bedding angle of 60 degrees, it does not tear out on any wood to date (including birdseye maple).  A couple of old wooden moulding planes that I have are also pitched at 60 degrees, same rationale.  At 60 degrees, the blade is part scraping and part cutting, but takes a little more effort to push.

   Edited 4/5/2003 6:52:23 AM ET by eddie (aust)

2. 
   GregB126 | Apr 05, 2003 10:49pm | #12

   Eddie,

   Is yours an HNT Gordon?  One of their shoulder planes in on my short list.

   Cheers,

   Greg

3. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Apr 05, 2003 11:35pm | #13

   Hi Greg,

   Yes, I have a HNT Gordon jointer and a (kit) smoother - both are nice planes that work exceptionally well.

   Can't see any reason why the shoulder plane should be any different.  The reviews are all glowing with praise and I've yet to see or hear a negative word.

   Cheers,

   eddie