Hi.
This has probably been discussed many times, but still…
I want to buy a plane I’ll use primarily for trimming tenon cheeks. I was going to buy a medium shoulder plane from Lee Valley, but I wonder if a skewed block plane from Lie-Nielsen would be a better tool for the job, or a more versatile tool. I already own a standard angle block plane, but no low angle block or rabbet block.
Trimming tenon shoulders is not much of an issue. Is is for cheeks mostly.
What do you think? What would you buy? Any other plane suggestion for such a job?
Thank you.
Fred
Replies
A large router plane, with it's ability to register on the board face, is a good choice too.
View Image
Edited 3/23/2009 11:26 pm ET by Samson
Hi Fred
I second Sean's suggestion of a router plane for tenon faces. This is great for ensuring parallel faces.
Forget the shoulder plane, unless it is a very wide one (e.g. 1 1/4" or greater). A shoulder plane is designed for shoulders, and takes its reference from the tenon. I'd rather consider the LN Rabbet block plane or Skew Block Plane.
Other alternatives are using a rasp or a joinery float (such as the one sold by LN).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Other alternatives are using a rasp or a joinery float (such as the one sold by LN).
Or the Japanese flat float as sold by The Best Things. I bought one a short while back and have used it for some actual woodworking...sharper than all get out and is a wonderful tool.
And just so the OP knows what I have posted in the past, my preference fo thinning tenons have been rasps and or coarse files. I also do use a router plane for lap joints and the like that must be precise.
As mentioned, for a shoulder plane to be effective, the tenon faces must be accurate before its use. So whatever method ya use to trim shoulders (I use a chisel), the easiest means to ensure the tenon is parallel to the face of the stock is the router plane. Not all tenons are parallel (think chairs or pieces coming together at an angle). So if your work includes such things, you'll need a means of handling that too.
Take care, Mike
Mike,I tend to agree with most of what you said but the Iwasaki floats can be a little problematic with the handle when your doing a long rabbet with multiple extruded tenons like a wide table breadboard end. The ones without handles could be tricky for the lack of handles:)
Samson's router has the great advantage of a reference level and I have never had a problem with a baby (1/2 ")LN shoulder and a very heavily fettled Stanley 92 and chisels.
I think maybe Lataxe has the better idea. GET EM ALL. That's if you have the money that Swedish Countess is trying to get on the am news. Good Grief.What size float do you use most? (for tenons) Boiler
If you could choose, wich one would you buy between the rabbet block or skewed block? For some reason, my heart seems to lean towards the skewed block plane.
Comments???
Fred, from Quebec, Canada.
Hi Fred
Of the skew and rabbet block planes, I would go for the rabbet. The skew will leave a cleaner surface, but this is unnecessary in a tenon, which will be hidden in a mortice. The rabbet block can be used from both sides of the tenon face, while the skew block is unidirectional here.
There are other areas where a skew block is more useful (such as raised panels) but for a tenon face I would go for the rabbet block.
Regards from Perth
Derek
What do you mean by unidirectional? Can I go in one direction only, or is it just easier in one direction? I thought I understood that the process is easier in one direction because the skewed blade tends to pull the plane towards one side, but I believed one can go either way?
My ''protocol'' would be to shave one cheek with the plane in my left hand (I'm a leftie), flip the bord face to face, shave the opposite cheek (same hand, same direction), flip the board end to end and repeat.
Perhaps there is something I'm not getting right here. Sorry about that. It might have to do with the spur being on one sode only?
Thank you once again for your reply.
Fred
Hi Fred
Below is a picture of a Stanley #140 trimming a tenon. You will see that this is set up for a right hander.
The plane is closed on the left and open on the right side (you remove the steel plate on the right to plane against the shoulder).
View Image
..and here is the LN with a fence. You can see the closed left side more easily. You would want the #140 that faces the other direction, should you go down this road (not my recommendation, as you recall).
View Image
What I meant by unidirectional is that you can only plane in one direction. By comparison the Rabbet block is open on both sides and can be used on either side of the vise.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 3/24/2009 11:43 pm ET by derekcohen
Fred,
the suggestion of fifteen different planes to take care of your tenon shoulders is very very confusing. The best way to get your tenons EXACT is to use a CNC machine. Now then I examine my tenons under my electron microscope, I can still see some peaks and valleys, but I don't think they are very important. Maybe in the future CNC machines will be made more precise. But those guys who use handplanes for doing the shoulders are the woodworking equivalent of neanderthals. God gave us REAL woodworking machines such as CNC machines. Isn't it our duty to use such tools? Woodworkers who refuse to move forward with the times are Luddites. Besides, I have added up the cost of all the planes that were suggested to you, and it will be cheaper to just buy the CNC machine. Have fun. And remember, on Knots, the real problem is figuring out who to believe. So, all seriousness aside, let me ask a question. If you draw bore pin the tenons, do you think it is all that important to get a "piston fit"? I think far too much is made of getting a piston fit on tenons. My recommendation is to come close, pin em, and move on to the next piece of fun. But if you want to buy even more planes, you can take the advice of Rob Cosman. I took a course from him a few months ago, and he only uses the Lie Nielsen small router plane for his tenons. I asked him why he didn't use the large router plane, as Samson does. He said that the small router plane is more precise and that his tenons are rarely more than an inch in depth so the small one, which he also uses in making dovetails, works just fine.So what do I really use? I use an old Stanley #71. It works fine. I do try to get a nice fit, but I don't obsess over it. Then I pin the tenons. I like the look you get when using the pins, and I like the idea of a mechanically locked joint. The real answer to your question of how to trim tenon shoulders is almost anything can work, once you gain the skills to use whatever tool you have.Indeed, I am thinking of writing a book on tool selection in woodwork. I call it the "Closet Theory". Here is how it works. Open the closet and use whatever falls out. You should be able to get close enough the table saw so that you don't have to trim your tenons. If you cut em by hand, then think like Frank Klauz and just "cut em to fit" on the first try. I haven't gotten there yet, but it is good to have goals.HAVE FUN. Remember. BE CAREFUL IN LAYING OUT AND CUTTING YOUR MORTISE. Be extremely precise. That is where the term "Rigor Mortice" comes from.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Rigor mortise. I like that. Did you come up with that yourself, or steal it from Roy Underhill?
I agree with your premise, though. A mortise cut with focus and rigour is the first step in the process. But cutting tenons accurately to size is just as necessary. Remember:
" The road to he11 is paved with couldn't tenons."
Just in passing: I've been woodworking full time for 37 years now. Been shoulder to shoulder with dozens of craftsmen, in that time, from many different backgrounds in learning the trade. Never had I heard of a router plane being dangled out over a tenon to pare, til I saw it on knots. Rabbet planes, files, rasps, chisels, turning chisel (yes, one guy had a huge 1 1/2" turning skew, that he used like a slick) electric routers, yes. Now what that means I dunno. I'm just sayin...
Ray
Never had I heard of a router plane being dangled out over a tenon to pare, til I saw it on knots.
I don't think Knots came up with it. I saw a video a long time back where someone did it, and they may well have gotten is somewhere else.
I tried it after Mel or Derek or someone mentioned/reminded me of it on the thread I started about making the door. It works well - in the same way jigging always helps - it takes some of the variables out of the equation. With a chisel or a plane even it's not too hard to get a cheek, the plane of which, is not parallel to the face. This an make for slight twists in the frame members and other fitting problems. No doubt guys who do this every day and are exceptionally adept might not need the crutch, but for Joe hobbiest, it can save some minor headaches. Give it a try. For doors in the 18 x 24" range and under, it's a good method of work based on my recent experiences trying it.
Hi Sean
Credit must be given to David Charlesworth for the router plane method - as far as I know. We have a tendency to ascribe a method to the last person to use it before you learn of it. In all likelihood, it has been around for a long, long time. I first read about it about 4 years ago in one of David's articles, tried it out, and decided it had a lot of merit. It is not the only method to use, and not even the one I first turn to - that really depends on how much needs the tenon needs to be tweeked.
Regards from Perth
Derek
A real good question for all to ask themselves is, if, in fact, all the aforementioned tools are available at one's workbench (they are at mine, except for the 1 1/2" skew chisel, Ray) which plane do you reach for FIRST to get the job done. All will have different answers, but I doubt it's the router plane.
If that's the only tool you have, then it will definately do the job. For me, it's the tool off the mentioned list that would take the most time to finish the job.
My go-to tool would be a shoulder plane for a small tenon (1" or less), and the low angle rabbeting plane for all longer tenons.
I think you are neglecting the important differences in process necessitated by different tools and methods. How do you cut your mortises and tenons?
Is fitting a tenon to a mortise chopped with chisels the same as fitting one cut with an electric router guided by a jig? Is tweaking a tenon cut and it's shoulders cut on a router table the same as tweaking one marked with a knife and cut with a handsaw?
Have you actually tried a router plane in this operation. It takes no particular extra time over any other plane or chisel.
I have used a router plane for this. In fact, I used to do it frequently before I purchased my LN rabbeting block plane a few years ago. Like Ray, I felt that the rasp was an inaccurate way of performing the task, as I would frequently begin to round my tenons. This was certainly due to my poor technique with a rasp rather than anything else.
What is nice about the router plane is that once you have the depth set, you are free to remove wood until there's none left to remove. The problem lies in the fact that when I'm working a project the depth of the shoulders to the tenon cheek isn't always the same on every tenon. With a router plane, you have to adjust for each and every one.
That's why I purchased the rabbeting plane. It certainly doesn't have a depth guage, but I can saw well enough to usually only have to take a few swipes with the plane, if at all.
Keep in mind here that I'm not saying that the router plane isn't a good choice. I'm simply stating that it wouldn't be my first choice. I'm always in a hurry. If I were doing it for fun, I probably would change things up, just for. well, the fun of it!
"Credit must be given to David Charlesworth for the router plane method - as far as I know."Not David Charlesworth. By a long shot.That technique is in an old Charles Hayward book and I think a George Ellis book as well.
My take is that when I saw out a tenon and I screw up, a plane isn't the best tool to fix that. Planes tend to do better when their soles reference against a surface so they can remove a uniform shaving. But my mistakes are almost never a uniform 1/32" too fat. One corner is usually high. For that job a wide chisel seems to work best for me.
As to pros versus hobbiests, while it may be an interesting discussion, it doesn't seem exactly relevant here. Real pros tool the heck out of their joints or use biscuits. Pros I know tend not to even own hand planes, save for a block plane and they are often looked at as "extremists". Guys like me or maybe Ray Pine really are more like hobbiests who get paid. I do what I do based on my sense of craft and pride. Pros by my definition are in business to make money and they do that by cutting corners I'm unwilling to cut.
In terms of 21st century woodworkers versus 18th c workers, that doesn't make sense either as the implication is that our modern methods will be faster than theirs. As relates to hand tools, they were probably quicker just because their skills were so well developed.
I think the issue here is whether you saw your tenons with a hand saw or a machine. If you are machine cutting your tenons you may do better with a plane. In which case I would think you would want a skew block/rabbet plane that cuts wide enough to touch the entire cheek. If you are sawing by hand, I think you would be faster with a 1-1/2" chisel (and possibly lower expectations for joint quality).
Adam
Very little that can't be done with a chisel and as long as the layout lines are still there, or at least a ghost of them, you have a reference to work to instead of blithely removing material which can result in putting twist into a tenon.
Perhaps you weren't referring to my post above:
"I'd understand the advice ['always split the line'] for an 18th Century cabinet shop worker. I don't understand how the advice serves a 21st Century woodworking hobbiest."
but if you were, I don't think you understood what I intended. Forget the time frames for a moment, what I was contrasting was the need for speed in a pro shop using handsaws and trying to make a living versus a hobbiest using handsaws and trying to make a perfect joint.
It had nothing to do with modern methods being faster.
That may be what I was thinking and misunderstood. Sorry for that. I didn't mean anything I wrote as a critique or rebuke. I'm just trying to place this as I see it. It's a machine versus hand saw issue in my mind. And I'm not 100% sure as a band saw may do what a hand saw does. It may be a fence issue more than a machine issue to be more precise. Mel often says things like "who are you going to believe" which always offends me. It suggests someone is lying. These are all just different view points from folks doing things differently. Trouble is, we don't always take the time to qualify (that's me) or we may just not know what factors are influencing our decisions. So that was my only point with all that. Sorry Sean.
Adam
No apology necessary, Adam. I was just trying to be clear in hopes of advancing the discussion. I took no rebuke. But, for what it's worth, I'm happy to be rebuked if someone has a good point.
I agree about no one lying and all that. Well said.
I like Rob's (Heartwood blog) latest entry. I recommend it.
http://www.rpwoodwork.com/blog/2009/03/20/personal-woodworking-it-matters/
Adam,
You know what, I was gonna let that offhand comment of yours about you and me being "hobbiests who get paid" pass. But, the more I think about it, the more it rankles. One of my dictionary's definitions of professional is "Engaging for livelihood or gain in an activity pursued, usually or often, for noncommercial satisfactions by amateurs.." Hobby is defined as "an occupation or interest to which one gives his spare time."
Since 1971 being a furniture maker has been my full time occupation, as well as its taking up much of my spare time . I supported myself, my wife, and my two children solely from the proceeds of that occupation for some 15 years of that time, until the children were old enough to both be in school , and my wife took a job. You are welcome to visit my website http://www.davidraypine.com where you may see a partial list of my commercial clients. In addition, it has been my privilege to work for some fairly well known collectors of antique furniture. I won't drop their names, but suffice it to say that I have had more than one of the clockmaking Willards, a Wagstaffe, and a couple Terrys, in my shop, as well as other period furniture luminaries as Beman, Frothingham, Phyfe, a few of the Philadelphia and Newport makers as well as some of the locals, Frye, Davis, Martin, Kersh and many, many others. To bring my business to the level of retaining my clients' confidence in my abilities and knowledge to work on their furniture has not been a trivial or part time matter, and I do not take it lightly. In short, I resent the hell out of you putting yourself and me in the same casual, paid hobbiest category. Maybe that description suits you, but it does not describe what I do for a living.
Ray
ps, My personal preference of chisel or plane for tenon paring has more to do with the surface area of the tenon than what tooling I used to cut it with initially. I usually reach for a plane for larger tenons, and a chisel for smaller ones where a plane wouldn't register as easily.
My take is that professional woodworkers, woodworkers whose chief motivation is to make money (increase shareholder value), don't use chisels. Chisels are tools for craftsmen. I know of a shop where if a workman (I hesisitate to call them craftsmen) picks up a chisel, the boss thinks he's loosing money. I'm guessing that's not the shop you work in.Here's a test question. Depending on how you answer will determine if you are a professional or paid amateur (using MY definition):If a shop's hourly billable rate is $50/hr and an employee earns $15 + benefits, do you let him spend 15 minutes sharpening a $10 marples chisel?If you are a pro, here are the correct answers:1) Your accountant tells you you're better off throwing away the chisel $10 chisel and buying a new one. Its costing you $12 to sharpen it and the new chisel is a write off.2) You design your tools so that the chisel is unneccessary. 3) It's a trick question: You can't get a guy who knows what a chisel is for $15/hour let alone one who knows how to sharpen one. We pay our lawn guys more than that here.4) You make the worker sharpen tools he carelessly dulled on his own time.5) You send the chisels out to a sharpening service that charges you $10 per tool and you think that's a cost savings of $2.Wrong answers:
1) You teach the guy a better way to sharpen faster. Why this makes you a hobbyist: This "training" doesn't make the guy more effective. Pretty soon he'll be sharpening tools all the time. He'll want more money, and he'll quit first chance he gets because he's "experienced".2) Yeah, let him sharpen the chisel. You're not going to throw out a perfectly good piece of steel, and he'll learn and improve over time. That's all part of the learning process, like the woodworking mags in the bathroom. It's on the job training. Why this makes you a hobbyist: These guys aren't your friends, they are your employees. They and they alone stand between you and the speed boat you've been wanting. They hate you because you are their boss. No free donuts or bonus checks at christmas will change that. Wake up!! 1950 is over.3) What? Marples chisels? Not in my shop!! I bought sets of LN chisels for all of my employees. We have only the best tools to work with. Adam
Adam,
Here's a definition you may find helpful:
Pose implies an attitude deliberately assumed in order to impress others.
Ray
Adam,"3) What? Marples chisels? Not in my shop!! I bought sets of LN chisels for all of my employees. We have only the best tools to work with." You might revise some of your thinking as you just ranked Sam Maloof and his shop as hobbyists. Maloof has said many times that he supplies a full set of LNs to each of his people and they use them.
Since his chairs only go for 50K or better, he probably doesn't qualify as a professional. I don't think enumerated rights/wrongs define who or who is not a professional. There are too many exceptions to all of it. $50/hr billable? With labor? You have to be kidding. By the time you take off all expenses (labor, commercial rent, health care, utilities, marketing, equipment costs and cost of production, etc) you might get closer to Net $00.00 to owner.. The IRS frowns at operating at a loss. Also in dilettantes using a C or Sub S as a blind for writing off expenses. I think if you are going to bandy figures, you should start with a more realistic base for your examples. Perhaps a less vertical view of the entire woodworking community.BoilerEdit: At $50/hr billable in your example, the owner, after withholding, would most probably be making less than the $15/hr employee. Most non-factory furniture operations that I know of quote a fee per piece, not a hourly rate. Also, I don't know how the Hall brothers managed to do all that hand chiseled mortise and tenon work, let alone the filing of all those edges. Can you say lower paid employees who took care of their tools on company time?
Edited 3/27/2009 10:23 am by boilerbay
Not stickily on shoulders and cheeks, but for those that have access to a copy of Peart's "Greene & Greene, Design Elements for the Workshop", there are some very enlightening X-rays of some Hall and Hall production joints done by the L.A.County Museum of Art. Can't give you an web source to see it, you may have to by the book. We speak hear of piston fitting and "just right tight" and of parallel and of square. This stuff was no where near the standards we set for ourselves now (many times based on what we perceived to be the quality "then". These are Hall & Hall Blacker House examples. In one view, only 1 in 3 housed tenons fitted and only that one was parallel. The tenon lengths were not consistent at all and the depth of mortise varied from one to the next, all being in the being 20 to 25% deeper than the tenon. In another (the crest rail joints) not one tenon fitted or was square to it's mortise. The major corner assembly tenon was short and cockeyed and short of it's socket by at least 25% and only touching on one side. If it wasn't for one single pin, the chair would have disintegrated years ago. The workmanship was very bad by today's standards but since it was unseen and the "show" of the product was good, it is shown as a fine example of the architects designs. I would buy such a piece, had I the wherewithal, as a collectors piece but if I wanted a good piece of furniture and very possibly built better and finished finer, I would look to some of our contemporaries, such as Gary Rogowski's piece. BoilerEdit:spellingEdited 3/27/2009 11:36 am by boilerbay
Edited 3/27/2009 11:37 am by boilerbay
Great post. Do you have a range of page numbers in the Greene and Greene book? I will have to have a look the next time I get out of the shop.It all comes down to tolerances.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,I thought it wood be food for thought.
Try page 27. another on 51. shows the bracket screws and plugs. One of those plugs was almost a miss to.BB
Adam, I sometimes think you and Derek Cohen are twins separated at birth.
I think it is probably the safest statement I've ever made on this forum to say that in every possible category that one would rank a woodworker and a woodworking historian, your experience and depth and breadth of knowledge pales in comparison to Ray Pine's.
I mean, come on, you weren't really serious were you? "We're both paid hobbyists."
I literally choked on my coffee.
Adam, I sometimes think you and Derek Cohen are twins separated at birth.
Hey, that's the nicest thing you've said to me all day. :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
"I think it is probably the safest statement I've ever made on this forum to say that in every possible category that one would rank a woodworker and a woodworking historian, your experience and depth and breadth of knowledge pales in comparison to Ray Pine's."We're not talking about skill levels here, that's different. By Ray's definition, I'm a professional, I think you are, and so are probably half of the guys who post here. I'm not trying to parse out who's more of a professional or less of one. I'm just talking about motivation- making money versus doing good work. Maybe we need new terms to describe what I'm talking about.You guys do it. I have to go make some money.Adam
I make money making furniture.
Ray Pine is an elite, professional furnituremaker.
I'll be generous and suggest (guess?) that you fall somewhere in between.
Edited 3/27/2009 12:50 pm ET by BossCrunk
Adam,
Obviously I don't know the details of your life. I didn't realize you devote the majority of your woodworking time turning out funiture for sale. I had always thought you had a day job as an engineer and only did woodworking as a side light. If someone had asked me what I understood your deal was, I would have said that based on his articles in PWW and some posts on the boards, I get the impression that period woodworking is Adam's avocation and love. He explores the tools and the methods used in the 18th Century, going so far as to make many of his own tools and trying to dope out methods that might have been used back then through trial and error as he attempts to build his versions of similar period pieces. As you might expect, he produces some furniture, but not a great deal. He seems to make more "professional" woodworking income from writing articles and demonstrating techniques than sell furniture, but I could be wrong.
These are my impressions, I'd be curious as to the reality, if you are willing to share.
Thanks,
Sean
That's a very complicated question to answer. I just returned from the NWA showcase. Presenters are asked to judge their ww competition. Their rules were entrants were pros if they earned 20% of their income from woodworking. I would add that should be household income as you could have a ww business that is not self sufficient without a spouses salary, pension etc etc. So I qualify as a pro using that formula.But you're right that woodworking isn't the only thing I do. That said, I think it's a mischaracterization to suggest I'm a weekend warrior as others here have done. So you want to look at exactly how money folks are making, what percentage of their income ww comprises, cost of living, hours per week etc etc. And at the end of that story, you still don't know anything about how skilled or experienced a woodworker is. My point was only that there's a difference between working wood to make money and being motivated by one's sense of craft. I stupidly used Ray Pine, a woodworker I respect, as an example of someone who I think doesn't compromise his sense of craft. Unfortunately, Ray likes teasing me more than discussing any subject seriously. Adam
I understood what you meant about you and Ray. You were clear that you were addressing outlook and approach and not experience or skill levels. That said, there was room for some misinterpretation.
I really don't care about precise metrics for measuring "professionalness." I was just curious whether I understood your situation. It would have been eye opening to me, if, for example, you were now a full time woodworker popping out an average of six to twelve peices a month or some such. Certainly the dedicated pursuit of something yields insights much faster, no? As an aside, I remember some saying about it taking 10,000 hours of practice before you can call yourself qualified for most any profession.
And, as you say, professionals of certain types don't have much to offer those of us with different priorities and interests. That's not a judgement of those professionals at all, by the way. It just is what is.
As far as being "motivated by one's sense of craft," I'm not sure I'd say it like that. No doubt there is good deal of craft in making modern cabinets and built ins with power tools, for example. Have you seen Old Dusty's (fellow Knotter) work? I'd LOVE to have some of his stuff grace my house! He is a craftsman extraordinaire, and I humbly admit that I'd be very hard pressed to duplicate his efforts even though I am a reasonably capable hobbiest woodworker. I think what you and Ray are motivated by isn't a generalized sense of craft but instead a particular aesthetic vision that might only be arrived at through the sincere pursuit of perfecting handtool techniques, with whatever time frames such tools and techniques require being a given.
Ray,
"Rigor mortise. I like that. Did you come up with that yourself, or steal it from Roy Underhill?"I AM outRAYged!. Roy Underhill stole that line from me. He got the idea of a hat from me. Norm got the idea of a plaid shirt from me. I can't get no respect. :-)Glad you liked my Rigor Mortice joke. I made that up a few years ago, and got a great response from Charles. Apparently I made him laugh. He had never laughed before, and he went to see a doctor, who told him that it was ok to laugh, and it wouldn't hurt him. ((The part about Charles responding to the first time I used my rigor morice line is true)). I find it is very time consuming to tweak tenon shoulders. So I really use a Makita power planer, but I use it with a really light touch. Excellent and fast on hardwoods but it leaves softwoods a bit fuzzy. The secret to getting the most out of the Makita power planer is to use a five degree back bevel on the blades. I also experiemented with leaving the burr on, but it works better if you take them down to a 30,000 grit Shapton waterstone, and be sure to use Evian water, NOT TAP WATER!!!!You know, Ray, I am beginning to believe the the best part of woodworking is not the actual making of furniture, but learning about the strange and different ways that people use to accomplish fairly simple and straightforward processes. The creativity of the human animal is outRAYgeous!Have fun. Stay sane.
Mel
PS you know, that loaf of bread that I sent was made from a recipe from the Alice B Toklas cookbook. :-)Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
"PS you know, that loaf of bread that I sent was made from a recipe from the Alice B Toklas cookbook. :-)"
So...that wasn't parsley bread? ...Wow, Man...
Ray, Mel-lower and mel loe..r
Thank you.
Good advices, and good fun to read. It helps. Really. But I already own a CNC and find the results with it to be sloppy ;)
Fred
Fred,
Glad to see you have a sense of humor, and are willing to have some fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Concerning undercutting the tenon, can't you do it after the tenon is fit to the mortise, thus permitting the use of the rabbet block or skew block planes?"
Fred - Theoretically, you certainly can. However, it's an extra step. That's why it's useful to have a shoulder plane and another method to trim/pare the cheeks as needed. What I will say, though, is that most often I don't use any plane at all - I'm very careful to cut a very deep scribe line at the shoulder and to mark the width of the tenon, and am very careful to leave no waste behind from the saw to clean up with a plane, chisel or float.
I don't always accomplish this, of course, so that's why I have floats, chisels and planes. But the advice remains - it's better to teach yourself to split a kerf line with a saw and occasionally mess it up than it is to train yourself to intentionally leave behind waste to trim after sawing.
And, I'll note that most often, I use a sharp paring chisel and/or a float for dressing a tenon, both shoulder lines and cheeks, that has gone awry from the saw. It's not nearly as accurate or as easy as a plane, but it is a whole lot faster, and I'm not retentively worried about the fit of the shoulder or cheeks, so long as the joint goes together and I can't see a gap from 2 feet away.
But the advice remains - it's better to teach yourself to split a kerf line with a saw and occasionally mess it up than it is to train yourself to intentionally leave behind waste to trim after sawing.
Why?
The "occassional" mess up can cost you much much more time to correct than the 90 seconds of paring to a scribed line.
Depends on the frequency of "occasional". When I was first training myself to do it, 1 out of every 2 tenons required adjustment. Now the frequency is more like 1 out of every 10, and hopefully will fall further.
You may well be far faster than I am with a shoulder plane, but it takes me significantly more than 90 seconds to check which shoulder is out (or more than one, as the case may be), fetch the shoulder plane, adjust the depth of cut, chuck the piece in the vise, then rather carefully plane a shoulder and follow by planing the end-shoulders to match.
I will readily admit that I certainly didn't come up with that advice, btw - it comes from Frank Klausz.
I'd understand the advice for an 18th Century cabinet shop worker. I don't understand how the advice serves a 21st Century woodworking hobbiest.
I don't use a shoulder plane for shoulders very often. I typically mark them carefully with knife or wheel gauge (either supplies an excellent paring reference. I then saw as close as possible inthe circumstances - a 6" wide shoulder can be a little more of a challenge than a 2 or 3" one, at least in my experience. I then pare to the line, like this:
View Image
It takes very little time. Is very precise and clean, and allows me to slightly undercut in one operation.
Sam,
"I'd understand the advice for a.... cabinet shop worker. I don't understand how the advice serves a 21st Century woodworking hobbiest."
Now, you've hit on the crux of the matter, in my opinion. If you are trying to make a living, you want the fastest, most practical means to make an acceptable job of it, without a bunch of fiddle-farting around. If your purpose is fiddle-farting around the shop, then it doesn't make a difference; indeed the more time consumed, the more fun is had. A big difference between a hobbiest and a professional bragging about time spent on a project, is just this. "I spent over XXX hours building this chair." vs "I got this out the door in less than XXX hours."
Very astute observation on your part, one that often is overlooked on this forum, where hobby woodworkers predominate.
Ray
Thanks, Ray. I don't personally, nor do I think most hobbiests, look to intentionally waste time exactly. It's more like we are much less constrained by time and can therefore pick safer routes to some ends even if they take a little longer. Admittedly, we can also use extra time as a crutch to get us over things that pros have down pat - sort of like running around a backhand in tennis.
All those things you said to Ray, and don't forget the most important of all for a hobbyist:
Not having to work on the honey-do list. That, in and of itself, is worthy of the longest longcut in the woodshop, or the welding shop, or the ale tasting shop (my personal favorite hobby!), whatever your hobby may be.
My hobbies include poker and fishing.
Ray
An even more astute observation on your part and I agree, there are many fiddle farters around here. I myself do not fit your exact definition, although I do take exception I am a fiddle farter of a different order. I cut my shoulders on the table saw and finish off on the band saw, for the mortise, a hollow chisel mortiser gets the call . I believe I qualify due to the fact that a majority of the time my process has none to do with financial matters, when it dose I work accordingly.
Of all the wood working tasks, hand chopping mortises is on the bottom of my list of fun things to do in the the shop rite next to cleaning pitch off saw blades, IMO masochistic at best.
I must confess I have indulged in Samson like fiddle farting, after handcutting some tails I grabbed my 71 1/2 and used it to start clearing out the waste, worked like a charm would I make this standard practice , nope a chisel is more fun.
Tom.
Tom,
You and I are as one on the relative fun-merits of both chopping holes with a chisel and cleaning pitch off sawblades. With such techniques I like to fiddlephart about until I feel I understand the technique and can do it reasonaby well. At that point I tend to weigh it agin' all the other techniques for achieving the same result, that I've learnt by fiddlephartin', and put it into a sort of mental hierarchy of attractiveness. I prefer play to work; but where I have to work I like it to be easy and quick.
Let's not forget also that, even if one prefers one technique over another (eg woodratted M&Ts to handmade ones in my case) there are some pieces wherein the style or look demands a particular technique. That hayrake I'm on with just now could be made in a lot less time if the wunnerful 'rat and other machine tools were used for everything. However, the nature of the piece demands the "rough" look from handtool-made (nearly) everything, so here I am labouring away with mortise chisel and so forth.
However, within the subset "handtool techniques" it seems there are still many methods; many, many methods, for achieving the same joint.
The breadboard tongues on that hayrake are imprecise due to the use of shoulder plane, skew-block and large chisel to take down the slightly too-thick tongue from the saw. None of those tools has the inherent ability to keep things square in that situation (the skew-block comes the closest) so it relies a lot on user skill - the sort that probably only comes after one has made a great many of the joint in question.
Since the tongue is entirely hidden by the breadboard, there is no need for it to have a rough look. Therefore I should have used more precise tools. To keep within the "handtools only" envelope for the table as a whole I could have used a router plane or (fenced, depth-stopped, nickered) rabbet plane, as both have the inherent ability to achieve square and correct depth. I'll obviously have to get both for the future. :-)
I'm slowly coming to realise how important it is to list (mentally or otherwise) the inherent abilities of various tools, as opposed to their wider ability-set, wherein some abilities need far more user experience to extract the right action from the tool.
Lataxe, rationalising his tool buying addiction
PS The professional vs amateur time-thing is interesting. I wonder what additional elements keep the professional from cutting corners in quality, where the corners cannot be seen, because of time constraints (other than pride in the work)? Cut corners seem almost endemic in some trades these days, possibly because we (as customers) have all been tutored by the accountants to reduce the price at all costs.
David,
I loved your message to Tom for a number of reasons.1) it was long - but no longer than necessary to make the important points. We need more messages here on Knots that are as long as yours. I hope you set a new trend. I have always liked your long messages. Of course, I always enjoyed your exhortations to mt to shorten mine. :-)2) YOu brougt up an interesting point about the difference between professionals and hobbyists in cutting corners. VERY FASCINATING. It has been talked about in terms of fiddlepharting, as you said. Not all hobbyists are alike, as you know. Some love to take forever to get something "right", by whatever definition of right they happen to be using at the time. Professionals don't have that luxury. They either learn to do the process in a reasonable time or they look for another job. I become "happy" with my ability on a given skill when I am able to do it consistently in a reasonable amount of time. I learned that in carving. Some carvers fiddlephart on the same area for eons. I like to do it and move on.3) your line "Lataxe, rationalising his tool buying addiction" was excellent. Now that you have recognized your addition, you can deal with it. Actually, I believe you have dealt with it adequately and there is no need to change. I believe you have dealt with it by looking at it as a feature and not a flaw, as they say in the computer business.Great to see you talking about woodworking.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Lataxe,
" The professional vs amateur time-thing is interesting. I wonder what additional elements keep the professional from cutting corners in quality, where the corners cannot be seen, because of time constraints (other than pride in the work)? Cut corners seem almost endemic in some trades these days, possibly because we (as customers) have all been tutored by the accountants to reduce the price at all costs."
Whew, now, there's a can of worms.
The thing that I had in mind when I wrote that thing about fiddle-farting is this:
Illustration one: Several years ago, when I was recovering from a wrist injury, a close friend, a hobbiest woodworker and a very good craftsman, offered to help me get some work out, as I was laid up and had a deadline to meet. So we're in the shop, I'm doing what I can one-handed, frustrated and frantic, with the deadline looming. I look over at my buddy, and he's fitting a piece of molding. Strolling casually from the miter saw to the bench, he picks up a plane, inspects the edge, takes a shaving off, gazes out the window, and tries the molding for fit. Picks up the plane, inspects the edge, takes another shaving off. The whole time, he's humming to himself. Dammit, he's having FUN! If I can't get the first coat of finish on this thing by tuesday, I won't have it ready by friday!! Hmm, hmmmhmmm hmmm. Dee, dee,dedee.
Two: A couple acquaintances have talked me into conducting a week-long "class" for them each summer for the last two or three years. They choose a project, and I walk them thru it. So, last summer, we're building hanging corner cabinets. I've got each day's chores laid out,based on how long I think it'll take em to do each operation. We're making sash doors, and I can cope the end of a rail in, oh, 5 minutes--mark the molding, chop the miter that delineates the edge on the cope, use an incannel gouge to chop the cope, mark the stile and chop away the end of the sticking for the end of the rail. So, I allow 15 minutes per joint for them, 3X the time it takes me, X 4 joints, one hour. An hour later, they're still fitting their first corners. They're having a blast! It's a new skill, and they are revelling in it. They are also taking the excess wood off in an excess of caution, one..shav..ing...at...a ...time...
Not to say that I don't enjoy the work myself. I do indeed. But I don't as a matter of course, dawdle in the shop.
As to your question on cutting corners: pride in the work is one thing that motivates me. Also, dread of having the customer say, running a finger across an open joint, "Oh, is this supposed to look this way?" or months (years) later, having the phone ring and a customer on the other end saying, "that chair you built me has fallen apart. What are you going to do about it???" I HATE warranty work. It really eats into time better spent on something more productive. Rather than cut corners by shorting tenon length or cutting down on the # of dovetail pins (or using a nailed rabbet in lieu of dt's) I prefer to try to work faster and I hope, smarter, thinking ahead-using the same set up to avoid repeating work, or avoiding having to work around something that ought to have been done in another order. I build a small box for a museum in NC. I've been building these things for years now. Over time, I have cut down the time it takes to build these things by 40%, enabling me to build the very same product, keep the price of the things from rising, and giving me a better wage, too. Using jigs instead of measuring, using power tools instead of handwork (shh-don't tell) in some operations, and using hand planes instead of power tools in others, things that might not seem consequential in building one box for oneself, make quite a difference when doing multiples for pay.
I've seen as much poor work done by"amateurs" with low standards or short attention spans as I have by makers who assume their customers are stupid. All present company excepted, of course;-)
Ray
Ray
Ray,G-Ray-t post. (sorry, couldn't resist)I find that I often do my best work when I am having fun. I have fun when I am either inspired or have a challenge, whether it be a new technique or problem or a deadline.In your cutting corners/pride in work paragraph, you sum everything very neatly. If it's done well and properly the first time, there will be no need to redo or repair it. As the old saying goes, "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right."
Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Ray,
Just read your message to David (Lataxe). YOu have related the same story to me in the past. (You are consistent). Also I like the way you are starting to write longer messages. YOu are still too concise but you are making progress. Also I notice that David has been writing some novellas. THIS IS A GREAT THING. Woodworking is not a good area for "description by sound byte".This "professional vs amateur" time thing is the most interesting concept to come up on Knots in my short time here. I have seen it right from the start. It reminded me of the "engineer versus scientist" thing at NASA. Engineers and Scientists are always fighting at NASA. It took me a while to understand why. It is just like "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus". Different sets of values! The short answer is DIFFERENT CULTURES.I have concluded that there is the PROFFESSIONAL CULTURE on Knots which is characterized by you, Rob, Charles, Richard, Sarge, etc etc etc. There is no doubt a real commonality in the PROFESSIONAL approach to woodworking IMHO. There are many other cultures in my refridgerator and a lot more on Knots, BUT the other interesting culture in Knots is what I think of as the OBSESSIVE HOBBYIST CULTURE. The OHs want to have:
- THe best and latest tools
- knowledge of what Charlesworth and Schwartz Lonnie Bird have said lately
- 30000 grit waterstones from Shapton with the $285 Shapton flattening stone
- arguments as to the best tool for refining a tenon, and best angles for primary, secondary, tertiary and back bevels for planing rare woods
etc etc etc.OBVIOUSLY I AM OVERSTATING THE CASE for the sake of argument, but you understand what I mean. The Obsessive Hobbyists are VERY MUCH INTO tool collecting, but the difference is that they actually use their tools, while collectors just hoard them. The Obsessive Hobbyist does not buy a mere Lee Valley tool or a mere Marcou if he can afford a Holtey. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A PROFESSIONALS.
PROFESSIONALS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO LIVE IN PEACE.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING AN OBSESSIVE HOBBYIST.
oBSESSIVE HOBBYISTS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO LIVE IN PEACE.But the chance of members of the two groups having a useful conversation is almost nonexistent because:
1) they use the same words but with different meanings
2) they have different value systems
3) they have different needs, wants, desires, motivations, etcThe fact that both groups use the same words makes it sound like a conversation is occuring, but it is like "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus". Understanding the other culture is very very hard and it may be downright impossibleThis is the great thing about Knots. The fact that these cultural differences exist mean that we can have conversations which go on for weeks and months, and we can have them again and again, with no actual transmission of information. It is true that there is no real need for the transmission of information. Many are happy just to make their own ideas heard. Actually it is much like conservatives and liberals in politics. They talk and talk and talk and talking makes them happy. In the language of the information specialist, they transmit information but do not receive. An electronics specialist would refer to such a thing or person as a diode. There is an old term in psychology -- ethnocentrism. It holds that "If I think this way, then it stands to reason that it is right and everyone should agree with me." The Obsessive Hobbyists are the largest group of people on Knots. In comparison, there are relatively few professionals. I guess that is because professionals, except those like you who were born wealthy, need to work for a living, and haven't got the time to spend on Knots. A person can live happily if they know which culture they are in, and if they are happy with that culture. Lataxe and Samson are O H s, and are well adjusted human beings. You, Richard, Charles, Sarge, Rob, etc are well adjusted professionals.It is people like me who are a problem. I am a hobbyist but my value system is much more allied with the professionals. I am a man without a country, who is accepted neither by the Professionals nor the Obsessive Hobbyists. I guess I can never have friends or be happy. I must forever float on an island alone. Oh darn. :-)But there is a light at the end of the tunnel. The line between the two cultures is a continuous one, and one can be a little of each. There are professionals who drool over tools and spend a little too much time on some tasks and whistle while they work, and even Samson sometimes turns out a piece of furniture in less than a year ((Sean, I am exaggerating here.)) In short, I can't wait to hear Lataxe's response to your brief message (less than ten pages). Your descriptions are right on, in my eyes, but I am not sure that David will be able to accept your ideas on how you must work as entirely "valid/good/worthwhile".David has recently accepted that he is addicted to tool collecting. He is as interested in talking about these tools of his as you are in using your tools. You have little interest in long discussions of one angle versus another. You probably don't know what angles your irons are at because you are only interested in the fact that they work. Both what you do and what David does are valid, but Professionals are from Mars, and Obsessive Hobbyists are from Venus."I have noticed as I grow older that I am like a man with one foot on the dock and the other in the rowboat. While I enjoy designing, and building a piece of furniture in a reasonable amount of time, I am also getting fascinated by Hollows and Rounds, Stanley 45s and some other things -- not for the purpose of doing woodwork more efficiently, but for the purposes of artistic expression, and to test their advantages and limitations for myself.Damn. I am a partial Obsessive Hobbyist with mostly professional values. I am jealous of those who only live in one culture.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Depends on the frequency of "occasional". When I was first training myself to do it, 1 out of every 2 tenons required adjustment. Now the frequency is more like 1 out of every 10, and hopefully will fall further.
Are your occassional mess ups always to the waste side of the line? Cause some of my sawing mess ups can go the other way. Fixing those can take much more than an "adjustment." They may indeed require a new piece of wood - not to mention the heartache if you lack one with the right grain, color, etc.
That's the reason to always make an extra part or two, whilst the setup is still fresh in the head. I've always got extra parts for the woodfire, but I've had to use 1 or 2 on many an occasion.
David,
What I am about to say is not humorous. It is true. Once, about a year ago, at a meeting of the Washington Woodworkers Guild, a guy named Charles Neil gave a talk. The title of the talk, according to the speaker was "Making Cabriolet Legs". I said something like, I thought a cabriolet was a kind of car, and cabriole was the name of a style of furniture leg. Well, he talked for an hour about how to make cabriolet lets, and he got to the point of making mortises and tenons. He said that if your mortise is too big, you could always glue a piece of wood on and trim it, or you could just use Bondo, which I thought was mostly for auto body work.So, if you believe everything you hear, don't worry about a sloppy tenon, just Bondo it.If you are like me, you really have to wonder who knows what they are talking about. This guy, Charles Neil, has been making furniture for decades and now he teaches and makes DVDs. I mean, if someone makes DVDs, you have to believe them, right?Picking out good advice from the din of the crowd is a very difficult and entertaining passtime.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
You should read the article from Fine Woodworking, Issue #111, by Chris Minick entitled, "Better Painted Furniture, Use automotive filler and primer to level the wood, aerosol cans to paint and clear coat it."
In it, Chris talks about using the new car products in woodworking. Here is a small portion from the article.
Why new car finishes work on wood<!----><!----><!---->
Furniture makers may question the wisdom of using automotive finishes on wood. After all, aren't car finishes brittle—meant for relatively immobile surfaces like metal instead of dimensionally unstable substrates like wood? Although that argument was true in the past, it is no longer accurate. Automotive primers, aerosol paints, clear-coat finishes and touchup paints have changed because car components have changed. The latest materials, such as high-impact plastics and composites, are used to manufacture car bumpers, trim and door panels. So paint makers have had to reformulate their coatings to accommodate increasing flexibility. This flexibility allows woodworkers to use car-finishing products on wood, which is notoriously unstable. If you don't care to use finishes from the auto-parts store, you can use most general purpose aerosol primers, paints and clear coatings to get equally stunning results. —C.M.
Two-part auto-body filler won't shrink, so it's great for leveling defects in wood.<!----><!---->
Using plastic-covered graph paper to measure the proper amount of filler and catalyst, Minick mixes the filler. After he packs the filler, he uses a knife to strike the repair flush with the surface, which will reduce sanding later. Areas of the leg that will be glued have been masked off. The filler cures quickly.<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Looks like Charles gets the last laugh!
Jeff (chpcrvr)
Jeff,
The nice thing about woodworking is that there are many ways to skin every cat. You get to pick the cats you like, and to skin them your way. If you still have most of your digits, you can do it more easily. If someone wants to use Bondo and auto paint, that is their prerogative. I sincerely hope they enjoy it. I am happy to have Charles get the last laugh, whatever that means. But I wonder if he does get the last laugh. If one is refurbishing a painted antique, I would recommend more traditional methods of fixing a loose tenon than bondo. If it is a "real" antique which is expensive and gets the folks on Antiques Roadshow all excited and saying things like $200,000, I would recommend as little restoration as possible.If one is fixing up a painted 1980's chair that you dropped a running chain saw on, then Bondo and automotive paint is THE way to go. I do some decorative painting such as Bauernmalerei and Rosemaling, so I am a fan of nice furniture in the painted traditions o Europe and Scandinavia and even Pennsylvania. Someday I will make a schrank, fully painted in the Bauernmalerei tradition, but I will forgo the possible pleasures of automotive products in doing so. That is simply my weltanschauung. I really support those who enjoy making Bondo chairs. Indeed, maybe the Guild could have a Bondo furniture contest, giving a prize to the person who makes the most creative piece of Bondo-work. I didn't participate in the "furniture from pallets" contest, and wouldn't in the Bondo furniture contest. But "different strokes for different folks". Let us all come together, down by the Riverside. Kumbaya. Then let's all take a trip to the Dunlap wood store. Somehow, I get excited by the REALLY nice maple and walnut and box elder they have there. I just can't imagine painting it or filling it with Bondo. Possibly I am the only woodworker in the world who feels this way.Thanks for writing. Congratulations to Charles on his last laugh.MeldMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Great advice, to do it right the first time. The last chair (set) I made was a mission style, with 22 M&T joints. (6 slats) Out of the 132 tenons (set of 6 chairs), I had to trim a dozen or so to get them to fit, and most were just 2 or 3 quick swipes with the shoulder plane. I will confess, that 1 tenon was so poorly cut (ooooops!), and was so loose, that I had to glue on a shim, and plane it down to fit. Life goes on.
I have the LN low angle rabbet plane and love it. I also have the Clifton 410 for trimming shoulders, and other small jobs, and like its versatility, especially for trimming thin areas, like shoulders, where a rabbeting plane would be too large and clumsy.
The router plane is also a good choice, but, in my opinion, would only be good on shorter tenons. It would begin to rock a little, the further out from the shoulder you got, as it would lose its stable base.
Get all three!!! I use each of them extensively.
W,
I believe your "get all three" is the Absolutely Correct Answer. :-)
Just lately I've been making a lot of M&Ts including long ones for through wedged tenons and breadboard end tongues. I've used a shoulder plane and also an LN 140 skew block on the breadboard tongues.
The nicker on the skew-block helps to cut down in the corners of a breadboard tongue, should it need more depth. A shoulder plane with the blade set right up to the side also works but it tends to leave a feather behind in the corner.
Both planes can be used to take nice fine slices across the grain. You can get a good momentum, especially from a hefty shoulder plane like the larger LV. But there is a problem keeping an even depth and square, so carefully achieved with the initial sawing, when planing away to get the tenon to fit the mortise. I spent a lot of time with a small engineer's square, a vernier and a pencil (to make witness-lines).
My "missing tool" is that router plane that Samson and others recommend. I normally use an electric router for making M&Ts and, as well as providing speed/accuracy, it automatically keeps things square and properly depth'd. The hand router plane performs exactly the same function, so one is high on my to-get list.
As to wider tenons, I would do what I do with the electric router - use a piece of wood having identical thickness to support the end of the router plane not resting on the workpiece.
Lataxe
All,
I generally pick up a rabbet plane if I need to adjust the thickness of a tenon. I've used a rasp, but find that it tends to round over/take wood off unevenly, in my hands, at least. The plane will remove wood more evenly, and as long as only a pass or two is needed (I try and get the fit as close to "right" as I can on the initial cutting operation), and one is paying attention to what the plane is doing, things stay within reason.
I'd not thought of using a router plane for this. My router plane tends to want to dive in and needs support on both sides of the cutter. Clamping the work down, then clamping a support block at the end of the tenon, combined with the minimal width of the bit itself seems like a real time waster to me, when I can pick up the rabbet plane, brace the tenon against the bench stop, take off a shaving or two, then get on with the job.
Ray
FWIW, the up side of the router plane is as Derek says, the ability to keep the sides parallel to each other an the faces of the stick being worked.
One down side in my experience is that it can be hard in some grain situations to adjust the plane to take a fine enough shaving. It either takes nothing or too much. Best to switch to a chisel when you are this close, in my experience.
The router plane would also have more trouble if the tenon was really large or long as its reach is limited - registration on the face is not solid after about two inches.
(re Router plane) One down side in my experience is that it can be hard in some grain situations to adjust the plane to take a fine enough shaving.
Hi Sean
The solution, in my experience, is a razor sharp edge for the router cutters. A few months ago I was providing a demonstration at a woodworking club and was able to hold the router plane in just one hand and push it across the tenon face. The edge was so sharp that it shaved away the high points with minimal resistance. The resullt was continuous, thin, plane-like shavings.
To get this type of edge I hollow grind the cutter's bevel (use a dremel or sandpaper around a dowel). It is then just a matter of freehanding it on waterstones.
View Image
Here is a link to my review of the LN Face Joinery Float. I compared it to a coarse Auriou rasp and a Stanley #140 skew block plane (but not the router plane).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Believe it or not (;-) I do sharpen my blades as well as I'm able on my waterstones. Indeed, just as you show.
My experiences in this regard may be a quirk of certain species or grain situations. While the plane certainly meets my expectations, I do think there is an invitable bit of play (lash) in the thread mechanism that raises and lowers the blade making adjustments for super fine shavings a bit touch and go.
Then again, I may well just be ham fisted. The rest of you may have no problem. Seriously.
Hi Sean
Pigeon-toed you may be but ham fisted you are not! :)
Apologies. When I wrote about the need for a sharp edge I was thinking about so many who struggle to hone the edges of the router plane cutters. These are not as straight forward as other plane blades. I became a little tunnel visioned.
Stll, the cutters are tricky to cut unless really sharp since the mouth is absent and the wood is unsupported. A lot like using a Stanley #45.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Samson,<i>"The router plane would also have more trouble if the tenon was really large or long as its reach is limited - registration on the face is not solid after about two inches."</i>Unless you have two pieces to tenon and but the tenons together end to end to provide additional support. Of course you can only go to a little less than 1/2 the width of the router plane's base per tenon, but it'd certainly prevent digging in.Best regards,
Paul
To be clear, I meant a tenon 2" in length. I tend to fit each joint separately, so I doubt I would ever do two at once. Though no doubt there are myriad ways that one could set up a jig i.e., abutting boards of thickness the same as the stick getting the tenon.
That's the plane I use as well, but I'm thinking of making a shoulder plane as I see a need for tighter tolerances than I can achieve with the Stanley!
Chaim
chaim,
Hey, whatever works for you. There's more than one way to skin a cat, as we say around here.
Ray
Walnut,
I too like the rabbit plane although of late I have found these to be incredibly useful for the cheeks as well as the shoulders. I'm sure some will think I am crazy.
Tom.
Edited 3/24/2009 10:01 pm ET by gofigure57
I have the side rabbeting plane set as well, but I don't use it for tenons. I have large hands, and I think that's why I choose a shoulder plane over the LN rabbeting block plane. I tear too much skin off of the knuckles!!
Fred - A consideration here is how you go about making tenons. Specifically, whether you're accurately cross-cutting the rail stock, either with a cross-cut sled and a table saw or with a hand saw and further trimming/squaring to the line with a miter plane and a shooting board. If so, then the L-N 140 skew block will do what you want very well, because you can register/square the plane against the end grain of the tenon.
It's also possible, and common, to mark out and saw tenons to the shoulder line, irrespective of the squareness/length of the tenon - one just makes sure that it's long enough to adequately fill most of the mortise, or that it's long enough to be cut-off and planed flush if making a through-tenon. In this case, the only registration surface you have with the 140 or the rabbet block plane for squaring/trimming the cheek accurately is the shoulder line.
While it's possible to absolutely square this surface with a shoulder plane before sizing the cheeks, many of us, myself included, slightly undercut the tenon shoulders with a chisel to ensure a tight fit at the shoulder. In this case, it's tough to use the rabbet block or 140 to trim/square the cheeks, because there's no square surface to register against. In this case, I'd think a router plane would be the best option, because the registration face is the face grain of the rail itself, which is pretty easy to make square and accurate.
Very interesting. Thank you.
I tend to cut the tenons on a table saw sled first with good results, so I can register on the end grain of the tenon.
Concerning undercutting the tenon, can't you do it after the tenon is fit to the mortise, thus permitting the use of the rabbet block or skew block planes?
Fred
Hi Fred,
This post reminds me of the scene from Forrest Gump where Bubba is reciting all the ways you can prepare and eat shrimp.
Router Plane, Rabbit Plane, Skew Rabbet Plane, Shoulder Plane, Chisel, Rasp, File, Float. The answers you got here are all very good, well reasoned and very on target.
I don't know that there is a right or wrong way to fit a tenon except that it's right or wrong for you. Clearly the answer to your question is to buy all of the above planes, some new chisels and rasps, floats and files!
Kidding aside, I've used all these techniques at one time or another except for the Float (don't own one) or the Router Plane (just got a large router plane but have not used it yet.) Up until now, the LN rabbet block plane has been my go-to weapon of choice. It's probably a good choice in your case because it is a pretty versatile tool. It's not going to register off the face of the stock like the router plane, but with a wider base than the shoulder plane, it think it's fairly easy to keep on the level when trimming tenon cheeks. And you'll get to use that rabbet block plan for other things too.
I'd say the order of acquisition might be: Rabbet, Shoulder, Router, Skew.
Frank
Fred,
Not meaning to further confuse you and make your decision harder, but I use a skew rabbet plane. It has a fence to limit the length of tenon, a fence to limit the depth of shoulder, and a skewed blade for wonderfully clean cuts.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Gawd, that's another plane on my to-get list. Are you talking about a-one of those new Veritas ones or do you use another version? That Veritas has caught my eye....
Is it necessary to get a pair (LH & RH) would you say, from your experience using the items?
Lataxe
Lataxe,I am right handed and use the plane mostly cross grain, so there is no issue with working against the grain. I have the RH Veritas model.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hello Fred,
A few years ago my wife gave me a LN rabbet block plane; it works great for trimming tenon cheeks.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Fred,
"I was going to buy a medium shoulder plane from Lee Valley, but I wonder if a skewed block plane from Lie-Nielsen would be a better tool for the job"
-----I have not got one or used one but I think it would do a much better job than a shoulder plane, especially as it has the removeable side facility.The shoulder plane in theory is not meant for this application.
Another very good option is the Stanley #10 and that is what I have used as it is easy to control (proper handle at rear) and very quick-also one can make a slight taper if required.
The hand router is not a natural choice for me, but ofcourse it can be used-even without support on the out end (for small tenons). The advantage of using this router is that it is then easy to centralise the tenon on the rail. Also, if the support is accurate the tenon will be of uniform thickness.
And then there is a nice flat wide bevel edged chisel....
A router plane seems like a bludgeon for what should be the removal of a few whisps of material, but I'm sure one will work.
Your goal is to have the sawing good enough that a nip and tuck with a rabbet plane ("shoulder plane") should be enough. Or perhaps a swipe or two with a fine rasp.
You need to read Ian Kirby's excellent vintage article on laying out and cutting a mortise and tenon joint to understand where to saw based on how you gauged the joint. A clear understanding of this prevents the need to worry about the removal of very much material at all. Again, it ought to be no more than 'hair' keeping the joint from closing - no way you should ever need to remove enough material to worry about throwing the thing out of kilter.
Work on your sawing and layout skills, understand the process, that's the answer. Cutting them for a sneak up fit everytime by removing outright shavings from both sides should not be an option. Learn to saw.
Edited 3/26/2009 6:37 am ET by BossCrunk
Charles,
Now I understand that professionals would have a certain amount of amusement possibly mixed with a hint of disdain for us pretending hobbiests, and, of course, it is warranted. If someone dabbled in law on the weekend and for on hour or so on this week night or that, I would find it rather ludicrous if they actually thought themselves my (someone who has done it all day everyday for years) equal. When it comes to woodwork, I am not worthy, and I know it. That doesn't mean I don't hope to gather some crumbs of wisdom that might drop off the big boys table, so please answer me this:
You say:
"Cutting them for a sneak up fit everytime by removing outright shavings from both sides should not be an option. Learn to saw."
Why? How will my life or my result be better if I allow no room fro error at all? What is to be gained other than a slight time savings? I really want to know.
Now, I'm an intermediate sawer. I can split a line at least 3/4 of the time. With practice (or if I've been doing a lot of sawing on a particular project) I might be able to do it 90% of the time. But even if only 1 in 10 goes awry, the cost in time or materials can be huge to get back on track.
Frankly, one very successful avenue in woodworking for me has been developing a sensitivity to where in the process I can cut myself some slack so as to achieve a perfect fit rather than an okay one. When you make a cabinet door, do you try to hit the reveal off the bench, of do you make the door fit the opening, and plane the sides as needed for a fine fit? Same question with respect to drawers? How about windsor chair leg tenons? French fitting? Would you tut tut that these operations must be done off the bench without more than a "hair's" shaving? Why would it matter if you had to take an "outright shaving" in such circumstances? Will the result be different?
Sounds like a kind of macho chest thumping: "Learn to saw!" I would think you were more of a "whatever keeps you making stuff and gets you to your result" kind of guy. I think the "learn to saw" mantra intimidates a lot of beginning and intermediate woodworkers. They are frozen from going forward making dovetails or m&t's etc. ... waiting until they "learn to saw." And frankly, learning to saw well still doesn't eliminate the possibility of stray cut into the non-waste side of an impotant board. Then again, supporting the "learn to saw" meme probably fills up handtools/sawing classses for the pros who like make a little extra scratch teaching wannabes. It also sells new tools, as the wannabe's look for that "perfect" saw that will help them split the line every time.
I say: Do what get's you woodworking! Do what gets you results you like!
"Are your occassional mess ups always to the waste side of the line? Cause some of my sawing mess ups can go the other way. Fixing those can take much more than an "adjustment." They may indeed require a new piece of wood - not to mention the heartache if you lack one with the right grain, color, etc."
Sean - absolutely no doubt that some of my screw-ups are on the "keep" side of the marking line. One of two things happens under those circumstances - 90% of them go into the woodstove. If it's a really precious piece of wood (that's not often - I always start with about 150% more wood than required for a project - most of the time that extra 50% isn't needed, but it's a nice to have), then it will get shimmed with a piece of veneer. I can only think of one instance where I've done that in the past year - because it was a piece of ebony.
I would, in no circumstance, tell someone whether what I do is "right", but the reason I force myself to cut the joint and have it fit from the saw is along the same lines as those teachers that note that one should saw dovetails to fit from the saw, with no paring. There are two aspects to it - one is that the saw, with its wide plate, is somewhat self-jigging, and the cuts are likely to be straight, though perhaps not aimed quite correctly. While I've gotten quite good with a chisel, and it is my go-to tool for the occasional requirement to fit a joint, maintaining rectalinearity with it is not simple, and a pared dovetail is often not quite right when the joint goes together.
The second reason is indeed efficiency. This will be a head-scratcher for some professionals, but my aim is most definitely to produce pieces of furniture as rapidly as possible with hand tools, much as it was done in the 18th and 19th centuries. There is no doubt, and I would not argue, that I could accomplish a small batch run of M&T joints with a tenoning jig on a table saw and a hollow-chisel mortiser. However, such tools leave behind distinctive signatures, and my goal is to produce a piece of furniture that is absolutely indistinguishable from an original other than its age, both inside and out.
Honestly, were it not for this goal, I would have use for very few planes in my shop - perhaps a miter plane on a shooting board because the precision adjustment that it offers is not available from a power tool. But I would more than likely have long ago abandoned the jointer and smoother plane for a wide-belt sander and a linear-motion pneumatic sander (both of which are excellent tools that I've used before, just not appropriate for what I'm trying to do).
Read the Kirby article. He outlines a methodology for sawing that significantly increased the % of time I split the line (if anything my mistakes are on the lean side, not the rich side so the joint goes together.) In short, I learned to saw based on that very well written article read more than a few years ago. I was glad to see it is one of the 'black and white' articles that made it to the online archives.Can't help you with the philosophical and existential aspects of it. If you're not buying that it's a joint that should fit off the saw then you and I will just have to agree to disagree. Obviously, your joints fit beautifully and I don't care to debate your obvious success.What works for you.Cheers.On a critical through joint I would probably sneak up on the fit. For blind joints, never.
Edited 3/26/2009 12:11 pm ET by BossCrunk
Samson
Your part-time lawyer analogy caught me eye. The jury is still out on that one. I did like it. So..
I come to the professional - non pro discussion with an additional perspective. I am a part time professional. My bread and butter is not my woodworking but I do build commissioned pieces and have built pieces for others on schedule for 27 years. I understand the point Ray is making: there is a clock on the wall, tools cost money and someone has to balance the books. Simple stuff but tough adjustments.
My addition to the discussion: If you want to get in the pro thing or understand the other camp, repetition is a good thing. What do I mean? Get really good at a few things and make nice pieces efficiently.
Example:There are lots of romantic chairmakers(mostly windsor types) out there. They build one chair at a time and hope to become good enough to enter the "race" to sell chairs and make a living in a shop with a woodstove burning and music playing in the background as they adjust their travishers for another pass. They're happy for a while. No orders, no sale, end of the month bills. ??? Eventually they give up and take another course and become Dukes or Earls... but not successful chairmakers on the pro level. the game? Be ready, reduce time to deliver a quality chair. Change the romantic process but maintain quality and detail. The pro turns 100 legs in a row. Thats right. When you stand at the lathe for 10 hours a day you will master the skew or you'll eat the thing. After 60 legs in a row, I am really fast. No brag you would be too. Next: outside to bust up 8' logs to straight grain billets. Its raining .. hard. Just right.. the wood won't dry. Back to the bench. shape 30 parts for steaming. To make the most of your steambox, you bend 50 pieces to hang on the wall. Next: 300 spindles-- one by one with a drawknife and spoke shave. Oh by the way.. who cares what they say about whether a diamond stone is better than sandpaper on a piece of glass ... get that thing sharp and get back on the sawhorse to shape those spindles - you need 300 remember? Its 12pm and you have to work the other job(lawyer maybe).
Now all you have to do when the order for 12 chairs comes in is shape the seat and assemble it(6-8hrs). Bingo you're a pro. No cutting corners just a 21st century process.
Oh, forgot to mention.. I have 3 rifles needing carved cheekpieces to be done by April.
If you love the wood, it just seems to fall in place. I don't mean to close with a bunch of Zen but its all about the wood. I bust a maple log open with wedges and see the curl and its like I am the curl.
later
dan
Nice post, Dan. I appreciate the story.
Do you ever get to experiment? To try a little bit different curve on the bulb in the legs or a different carving on the ends of the arm rests etc.? I'm sure I would gain a lot from the repetition (it certainly helps in every other human endeavor I've encountered), but I would be sad to lose the follow my nose aspects.
What a charge for a continuous arm and how long is the wait? (e-mail me if you're shy as I'm serious).
Thanks,
Sean
D,
That is an interesting story and reflects the situation in the early years of the last century, when bodgers camped out in the woods of Britain to make thousands of chair parts via production line techniques. The situation became very "production line" with the various operations to make a chair and it's parts becoming more and more demarcated/specialised. Economic pressures (competition and driving down of prices by chair sellers) meant that the quality of the production line outputs dropped markedly and soon "bodger" came to mean "one who makes a very poor job".
There seems to be a sometimes difficult balancing act for the professional, between the demands of efficiency and the demands of quality. Repetative work may well increase skill - to a certain point. After that point there may come a descent into the land of being-bored-and-cutting-corners.
The problem is that there's only one mechanism for producing and distributing goods, with profit/loss the be-all and end-all. I'm waiting for a more "romantic" model to emerge, where producers love what they do, do it for its own sake to a high quality and the economic necessities are much further down the list of "important aspects". Of course, I have no idea what such a model might look like or how it will emerge. But global capitalism is having a Big Spasm and perhaps this is a period when socio-economic memes will see a corresponding Big Evolution.
Lataxe
"The problem is that there's only one mechanism for producing and distributing goods, with profit/loss the be-all and end-all. I'm waiting for a more "romantic" model to emerge, where producers love what they do, do it for its own sake to a high quality and the economic necessities are much further down the list of "important aspects". Of course, I have no idea what such a model might look like or how it will emerge. But global capitalism is having a Big Spasm and perhaps this is a period when socio-economic memes will see a corresponding Big Evolution."
There is some possibility of this. The barrier is that even those that like and collect antiques generally don't understand the differences between the characteristics of a piece made in the 18th century by hand tools and a modern reproduction made with machines. This, of course, is the specialized knowledge that makes an antique dealer, appraiser, or conservator. But it does amaze me how many collectors I've met that do care whether a piece is "authentic" (in the sense that it's from the 18th century, or at least the age of handwork) and know nothing about how to gauge those aspects of a piece themselves.
There are also a good deal (perhaps a majority) of those that appreciate the forms, but have a sensibility born of modern furniture - finished surfaces throughout the piece, regardless of its location. That these individuals comprise the majority of reproduction furniture buyers poses a problem for those like me, Adam, or someone like Jeff Headley - they will not only not pay the extra money that allows someone working solely with handtools to produce a piece one at a time, they don't appreciate the actual characteristics of an antique. Jeff has alluded to that on the SAPFM forum - many of his customers will not tolerate roughly-planed tertiary surfaces inside a case piece.
However, I think you're right that there is perhaps an opening to educate a small minority of customers to appreciate and value hand work. In the US, there's a tremendous interest in locally-produced and artisan products for which modern, high-volume production techniques are an anathema. Some examples include bread-making ($4-$7 a loaf in my area, when "wonder bread" is selling for $1.25), wine ($25 a bottle, up to about $125 a bottle), organic produce (typically twice the price of the same vegetable produced on a factory farm), and textiles. ANother excellent example is the Seagrove, NC pottery community - there are at least a hundred very small makers, often individuals, that are successful selling pottery to the public at prices that are far higher than the equivalent piece produced in the far east factories.
I can certainly see an opportunity to find a market that does care how a piece of furniture was made, not just the form of the final result. This is definitely already happened with Windsor chairs, though unfortunately Michael Dunbar, Jim Rendi, and others have been so successful in teaching people how to do this that they're almost commodities, with little profit margin. But it hasn't happened yet with other forms like case pieces, beds, tables, and the like.
I've put quite a bit of thought in this, since it looks like the globalization of the pharmaceutical industry probably means the death of my career. The catch is that one has to reduce expenses to an almost unreasonable level in order to survive long enough to educate one's market.
Lataxe
Saying efficient production is a little like saying high quality veneer to the uninformed. I think you might sense where I'd like to go but I'll stop short on the veneer end for now and add a little to the production discussion.
I like high quality windsors and I won't cut corners to maintain what I think makes the parts work so well. Straight grained wood. Maple for the legs is easy and cheap to produce with a froe. The steam bent parts(red oak) won't cooperate if they aren't just right so there's a built in check valve. The wood for the spindles needs to be dead straight for the strength it needs when they taper down to 3/8" in the thin section. From my angle, I toss pieces I have split that aren't straight grain while I'm at the sawhorse with my drawknife. If it ain't straight, pitch it. Its a pain in the a@@ to work. Kinda like splitting gum for the fire place. No fun.
All of the preliminary work I do is manual(not romantic) and its labor. I get tired. When I get to the lathe(a nice General), skew in hand, I like to rock and roll. After all I've been pounding wedges and froes for many hours to get the "good stuff" ready for the lathe.
Unlike factory production where grain direction is meaningless, my "repetition production" on the lathe is a compromise of romance for survival and the chance to "stay in the game" and keep bread on the table.
So. I don't think I am a slip fit for the model but I am havin' fun and when I make enough chairs to make some money I sneak out and buy a barrel and some curly maple and start making another kentucky rifle.
dan
With the legs, it can be fudged if the builder/turner is not meticulous with the quality of his billets. Not really a problem for me. Here on the east coast, I have so much maple and oak I haven't cut down a tree in years for legs or bends. In my county I have access to nice logs cleared for road work. Loggers don't want ones and twoseys so they don't care if some crazy comes out and cuts up sections and splits them up to manageable pieces.
Dan,
I imagine you on the cusp of the curve, where you've balanced/maximised both pleasure-from-the-work and ecoconomic return. Perhaps one major factor (besides your quality ethic) is that you only demarcate yourself and remain in charge of the end-to-end production and sale?
The olde bodgers became victims of an increased fashion and market for Arts & Crafts of every kind - ladderback and Windsor chairs in their case. Sales and marketing men took over. Entrpreneurs with retail outlets in the cities drove the demand and also the price war. The bodgers found their own chair prices undercut and ended up as drones in the production line of some major chair retailer from the metropolis.
The bodger lost control of his work and thereby his motivation for quality. Why should he care about a final chair he never sees, only makes the rungs or slats or posts for, out of (cheap & inferior) material he has no hand in selecting? He never knows the customers, the chair or anything other than the next bit of timber whirled through his pole lathe at tuppence a hundred.
Henry Ford has a lot to answer for!
Lataxe, who dreads dronery.
Reading a little on the bodgers you mentioned brought to mind a guy I met years ago from your island. His name is Don Weber. He makes his way in the Kentucky area these days. A long time ago, I met him doing a demonstration on the history of the bodgers. He demonstrated how they turned out in the woods by creating spring pole lathes from nearby limbs and then getting to work cranking out chair legs. I am including some site info and perhaps you can look in on this Welshman and check his info. Might be interesting.
I am including some Woodwright Shop information and the site Don Weber maintains. Hopefully, you can get something in one of these sites. You might enjoy looking around.
A couple windsor shots.
http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/schedule/index.html?dest=%2Fwoodwrightsshop%2Fschedule%2Findex.html&step=2&jumptoch=&edit_st=y&zipcode=27705&x=31&y=8
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http://www.handcraftwoodworks.com/
Dan,
Than you for those pics and for the reference. I have come across Don Webber recently - an article he did for Pop Wodworking about his making of a Cotswold style A&C hayrake table. I'm making one myself at the moment so the article was of high interest.
I do make ladderback chairs from time to time, using green ash or oak and glueless joints. Everything is made with the froe (or lataxe as it's called round these parts) drawknife, steambox and so forth. I draw the line at a pole lathe and use the lecky one however. :-)
These are just sporadic with me, although I do have a Shaker-style ladderback to make for a neighbour in the next month or three - one of those straight-legged things with an 8 degree lean-back.
I belong to the North West (England) Coppice Association, although I don't coppice a wood myself not make a lot of greenwood stuff. (Just the odd chair, bowl, swill and similar). It's more membership out of interest in the real coppice working lads and lasses, who are relatively numerous within the woods of south Cumbria (30 miles north of where I live). They work in the woods and have all manner of pole lathes, the various qualities of which they discuss amongst themselves quite vigorously!
http://www.coppiceapprentice.org.uk/pioneers2008.htm
These coppice workers are rather poor as greenwood items aren't popular in the mass markets. They mostly do it because they like the outdoor life and the lack of a boss or all the bollocks that comes with running a business or being a wage-slave. They're also a wee bit ideological, but in a rather gentle hippy fashion.
As you can imagine, they tend to sneer at powertools (although there are secret chainsaws about). They do, though, avoid the more polluting or damaging things in their woods, like tractors or other environment-manglers. Timber of size is mostly extracted by "snigging" - use of two horses and a dragline to take logs out to the sawing and riving ground. "Snig" is, I believe, an old Norse word meaning "wriggle" as eels are called sniggers hereabouts.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/videos-pics/videos/farming-videos/2008/11/18/snigging-with-horses-55578-22283838/
Around here there are few if any full-time bodgers. There are a number elsewhere in Britain though. I was taught to make those ladderbacks by a bloke living in a Worcester wood. He's an absolute whizz on a pole lathe.
http://www.living-wood.co.uk/index.html
Lataxe
Well it looks like you are in the know. Don is a great inspiration to me for a couple reasons. He seems to be tireless in his search for the perfect chair part. Additionally, Don is committed to making his own tools to fit him. No production tool seems to be "just right" for what he wants to do. I think this second point is where he pulled me in.
After watching Don heat up some useless chisels and files in his basic forge, I realized that tools are easily modified to fit the work. This has been an eye opener for me. I see folks buy a 50 dollar skew chisel to get in the corner of a dovetail socket when they can get a 5 dollar straight chisel and grind a 45 degree angle on it and go to work. I collect buckets full of files now and make nice tools for special tasks at a very low cost. Some question the logic of spending time shaping tools saying its time away from working wood. There's some truth to this but.. I don't waste that time searching catalogs hoping to find something that works, order it and find ... it just ain't quite right. I thank Don for the change of thinking.
later
Snigging. I love it. Here in my area we call it skidding a log. Most of the time I pull out single logs with a tractor. Years ago, they had a demonstration at one of the historical sites here in NC(Bennett Place) and they had a horse with skidding straps to demonstrate how to pull a big yellow pine log. It seemed basic to me until they asked for volunteers to put all of rigging on the horse and hook up the log. I volunteered.
Before it was over I needed some "adult supervision" to get the job done. I might add I had some experience with draft horses but I still managed to tangle the straps a couple times. Its fair to say-- its an art. Working the horse and the load is a talent. I was humbled. Had fun.
The trolley that the blokes use in your site is really clever. I have not tried one of those but I dare say they look like a nice upgrade from the basic leather straps I used.
The workers seem to be enjoying the greenwood in the photos. I like it a bunch.
Here on the east coast of the US, we had a guy John Alexander(Marylander) who really fired up folks to get in on green wood. Back in 1981, I took a short weekend course with him in the Baltimore area and feel into windsor stuff. Lots of common ground and lots of wood at a nice price. Good stuff.
Love to see more stuff from Britain if you have other sites.
d
Dan,
Here are some websites that may be of interest:
http://www.regionalfurnituresociety.com/home.htm
http://www.bodgers.org.uk/index.php
http://www.rushworth.com/green/index.htm
http://www.oakswills.co.uk/
I suspect that there's a great deal more interesting stuff that never sees the light of day as green woodworkers are not always too Internet-savvy, preferring a more "traditional" life.
Lataxe
PS There is a full DVD and a long how-to document concerning the making of a swill, should you be interested (email me offline).
Lataxe,
Thanks for those links, especially enjoyed browsing the exhibition pages of the regional furniture society. Always wanted to build one of those curved-back settles, but alas, no-one has ordered one yet. Would be interesting, I think, to explore the links between your regional style variations, and those on this side of the water.
Ray
Ray,
Did you follow various links to this place?
http://www.geffrye-museum.org.uk/collections/thematics/
I'd like to go and see this museum I think.
Lataxe
PS I have a nice photo of a curved settle that resides within the reception hall of the Kirkstile Inn at Loweswater......?
PPS That Regional Furniture Society front page pic of a carved thang in the style of The Bowland Fells etc. is very interesting. I live at the foot of the Bowland Fells and used to live, when a student, at Marshaw Farm in the Trough of Bowland. I do vaguely remember ancient old pieces summick like that in the Regional Furniture Society pic. Perhaps I should make a little something and try carving some of those motifs on it?
Lataxe, ye old Bodger,
Thanks for that 2d link. Slow as my auld puter is, I could not face the tedium of waiting for every page to download, instead I concentrated on the 17th and 18th century furniture pages. I suppose this refers to a pic of yourself in your velocipeding togs?
View Image
Ray
All that and ya ended up with a really cool fence!
I loved this post and the pictures.. Thanks for posting them.
I think my passed on Brother was in the group. Everybody wearing coats and whatever to keep warm. One guy in a 'T' shirt. That would be my Brother....
And I watched the
Snigging with horses..
What horse are they? Long ago I had money to ride.. Then I had three daughters to send off to College...
My Sons wife is from Wales.. He met her on a trip to England. He said he was going there. But as once a boy, I KNOW he was probably just telling me something I wanted to hear...
She hated me for some reason! I just tried to stay out of the picture. She loved my Son so all that counts in my mind..
Edited 4/4/2009 11:40 am by WillGeorge
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